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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

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To: Quix
God sees the heart of man. I do not see their heart. I agree they do seem to be in error and they are adamant about it, yet it is not my job to straighten them our as it were. It is good to declare truth and let it work it's way.

” For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12 KJV

We are the hands and feet, and voice of God on earth. When we do our part, God does the rest.

MATTHEW 5:44" ... and Pray for those that despitefully use you and persecute you."...

_______________________________________________________

"Matthew 5:44 (King James Version) 44.But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

____________________________________________________________

Thank you for your presenting God's Word in clarity. That is it!

“May we hear well done my good and faithful servant.”

__________________________________________________________

151 posted on 01/15/2011 12:04:31 PM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: Quix
http://gracethrufaith.com/revelation-times/revelation-2-and-3-seven-letters-to-seven-churches-part-2/

When you have a few minutes. Scroll down a little for the article.

152 posted on 01/15/2011 12:12:30 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: geologist

Thanks yet again for your very wise and very Biblical words and exhortations.

I essentially agree.

I suppose I will likely persistently apply same differently than you would. You’re likely a much loftier saint than I am. LOL. Sigh.

I do care for all involved. I do pray for all involved.

I have a mandate to be me . . . as God made, trained, taught, conditioned me to be . . . not someone else. It’s challenging enough to be me! LOL.

PLEASE ALWAYS FEEL FREE TO EXHORT ME—PUBLICLY OR OTHERWISE AS YOU SEE FIT.


153 posted on 01/15/2011 12:24:39 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name
 Get your first nickle from satan - he started distorting Truth in the garden. Nothing new under the Sun 

Satan's claim wasn't "God never changes.". Quite the opposite. This is a new tactic.  

Are you familiar with all the NT says about Jerusalem?

154 posted on 01/15/2011 12:24:43 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Thanks. May get to it this evening.


155 posted on 01/15/2011 12:25:02 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: topcat54

>>You’re treating his somewhat unclear words as if there are infallible and trump all other arguments.<<

Unclear? Only those trying to twist them to conform to a preconceived belief system would read them any other way. Revelation was clearly written between 90 and 96AD. Not only was that confirmed by Irenaeus but fits with other Biblical prophecy.


156 posted on 01/15/2011 1:22:41 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: topcat54
Satan's claim wasn't "God never changes.". Quite the opposite. This is a new tactic.

WOW!! Who said satan claimed that? Are you not aware of satan twisting what God said? I guess I gave you too much credit since you are posing as one who knows The Word. I didn't realize I had to post Scripture and explain it to you. It should be common knowledge to anyone claiming Christianity.

Are you familiar with all the NT says about Jerusalem?
You don't even know the beginning of The Bible - and how satan twisted God's Word to deceive and you THINK you will enlighten me? LOL! I KNOW Jesus, The Word. 'man' doesn't instruct me. The Holy Spirit is My Teacher and that's Scriptural.

Rev 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

GOD NEVER CHANGES - HIS WORD never changes.
His WORD always was and always will be.
It's ALL about Jesus, The Word!

157 posted on 01/15/2011 1:40:49 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Quix

White hanky? You mean this Pentecostal hanky from Peter Popoff? The huckster and idiot who thinks that the US issues 25 dollar bills as currency? Or did you have another white Pentecostal hanky in mind?

From Peter Popoff: December 1997.
Dear Brother Smith,

I have been reaching out to God on your behalf ever since I heard from you. I have been praying and listening for God’s Word concerning your needs and your special blessing. I’ve heard the voice of the Lord concerning these needs and also another need that you have in your life.

THE LORD IS LEADING ME TO LOAN YOU MY “FAITH HANDKERCHIEF”

TO START A MIRACLE IN YOUR LIFE.

Brother Smith, God has kept you on my heart. God has awakened me at night and I have sat up in my bed with tears running down my cheeks, crying out to God for You! You must listen to me.

I said, “Lord, You sent the Smith family to me. I know You did. I am praying for You to send to the Smith family the same kind of blessing, the same kind of great miracle, that only You can send. Lord, through this anointed red Bible Handkerchief send the Smith family the same kind of miracle You sent to dear Sister Davies in Los Angeles when she needed that $1,778.00 miracle. Lord, remember how in that powerful service we were having Sister Davies proved You, according to Malachi 3:10, with the largest bills she said she had in her billfold that day, ($25.00 that she needed) and then You blessed her with that $1,778.00. John, as I kept praying I said` “Lord, I know you are no respecter of persons. I know as surely as You honored the faith and obedience of Your servant Paul, Your anointed instrument for his generation, and .. through their faith and obedience the people with needs received a special TOUCH as the handkerchief from his body touched them I feel deeply that You will honor my faith and obedience as I take Your healing power to my generation. I know, Lord, you won’t perform a SPECIAL MIRACLE for one and not for another who acts with the same faith and obedience. Lord, I ask you to do it again. Send the same kind of miracle this time for John. Let your miracle power flow to 123 Main. Through this anointed Faith Handkerchief let great miracles start happening in Chicago.” . . . .

John, God spoke to my heart and mind and said, “Send the Smith family your anointed faith handkerchief just like the apostle Paul sent out handkerchiefs in Acts 19:11 12 if you really want the Smith’s to be blessed. If I moved for the apostle Paul, I will also move for the Smith family for I am no respecter of persons.”

I have obeyed God and loaned you my faith handkerchief. Now I want you to print your name on it. It is a must! I must have your name on my handkerchief!

BROTHER SMITH, DON’T MISS GOD. FOLLOW THESE FAITH INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY IF YOU WANT THE MIRACLE I HAVE CLAIMED FOR YOU. HERE IS HOW USE MY FAITH HANDKERCHIEF.

Acts 19:11-12 says: “And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them and the evil spirits went out of them.”

Now I am obeying God and loaning you my blessed handkerchief. I use the word “loan” because I must send my faith handkerchief to another family who has a need after you use it and print your name on it. Please do not keep my handkerchief! I must send it to another family when you send it back. You will not need it after tonight, John.

Here are the faith steps you are to take, in Jesus’ Name:

1. Print your name in the center of my handkerchief. Yes, either print or write your name.

2. John, open your Bible to Acts, Chapter 19, Verses 11 and 12.

3. Lay my faith handkerchief with your name printed on it on this scripture and leave it there for tonight only. Only one night without fail.

Please, Brother Smith, in the morning get my “Faith Bible Handkerchief out of your Bible, place it into this self addressed envelope and return it to me. I will pay the postage for you. This is so important! I repeat, do not keep this “Faith Handkerchief” and please do not break this flowing of God’s spirit from my home here in Upland to your home there in Chicago. Rush my “Faith Handkerchief”, which I have felt led to loan you tonight, back to me for I must write you something in the Spirit that is coming to your door. I must take this handkerchief (with your name on it) and hold it in my hands and pray a special prayer for you. I feel a special miracle for you and someone you love.

Right now, I am asking you to get out your largest bill. God sees your sacrifice, and it will be a sacrifice. God sees. It may be a $50.00 bill or $25.00. It may be a check. But step out in faith and give it to the work of Jesus Christ as a seed. Now give God a sacrificial offering. Give your biggest bill (or check). If it is a $50.00 bill, or $25.00. God sees. And ask God for His best blessings to be bestowed upon you.

The Holy Spirit is in this letter and is speaking to you now while you read these words. Please obey the Holy Spirit. The greater your sacrifice, the greater your blessings. I am waiting on this powerful “Faith Handkerchief” back from you.

Peter Popoff


158 posted on 01/15/2011 1:54:17 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Quix
You must think I keep track! LOL.

Of your unsubstantiated claims? Obviously not.

159 posted on 01/15/2011 1:55:29 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Quix
Does this mean that you intend to continue issuing unsubstantiated claims and then whining when you are called on it?

Perhaps we can use Rex Humbard's nail to pin your claims down:


160 posted on 01/15/2011 2:22:57 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Religion Moderator; topcat54; metmom
When Religion Forum posters take the view that Israel is no longer God's chosen people or particularly blessed of God then I ask the posters to state their views towards Jews and races or genealogies because that particular belief is held by Christian Identity and other white supremacist groups, none of which are tolerated at all on Free Republic.

What I hold:

God's plan, from the beginning, was to redeem "a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages".

Paul tells us that "Israel according to the flesh" has many advantages:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

And, again

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

All great advantages, all things that point to God's work in Christ. (And I note, parenthetically, that the concrete land promise that a certain eschatological school obsesses about, hardly seems to matter to the New Testament writers. Curious, that.)

I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Those that eat at the eschatological banquet come from all nations.

Are there physical descendants of the patriarch Israel who are now part of God's people through faith in Christ? Yes. Are there physical descendants of the patriarch Israel who are cut off through unbelief? Unfortunately, yes.

I find Christian Identity to be, just, weird. A crackpot racist sect.

Clear enough?

Another "red flag" is when the poster claims that the word "Adam" means white.

I've honestly never heard that one before.

161 posted on 01/15/2011 2:56:18 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: metmom
Israel is Israel.

Of course.

"A is A", which tells us nothing about what "A" is.

Shall we go through the many different ways the sting literal "Israel" is used in the bible?

162 posted on 01/15/2011 2:58:13 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: geologist
Having read the majority of the postings to this thread, I see little clarification as to the facts of the Bible. Rather a good deal of time spent either insulting, denigrating or otherwise dissing each other.

You're jumping in late into a long running dispute.

When there are basic areas where God left it intentionally (it seems) vague or even hidden ... it is for a purpose.

The bible doesn't tell us everything we want to know. Some people can't handle the uncertainty.

163 posted on 01/15/2011 3:11:15 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: topcat54
Yeah, whatever.

Wouldn't be the first time a nut job has been granted a security clearance.

Probably fictitious, anyway.


164 posted on 01/15/2011 3:16:24 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Quix
When I was in the service we used to joke
about above top secret as "Burn before reading"

165 posted on 01/15/2011 6:31:09 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: CynicalBear
Unclear?

Exactly. Here's Gentry's comments (since you're apparently too convinced in your error to read them for yourself):

(I apologize for the formatting. I've had to remove the Greek original because of font issues as well as footnotes. Please consult the original .)

The (“that was seen”) is commonly considered to refer back to the immediately preceding noun, (“Revelation” or “apocalyptic vision”), in the preceding sentence. Irenaeus is af- firming, it is argued, that John “saw” (i.e., received by vision) the prophecies of Revelation at a time fitting the late date theory of composition: “no such long time ago, “ “almost in our own genera- tion,” and, more precisely, “at the end of the reign of Domitian.” As the external evidence section of the present study is developed, additional ancient historical witnesses will be considered. But the importance of this evidence found in Irenaeus’s work is universally recognized and demands careful and lengthy consideration. How shall early date advocates deal with such strong and forthright testi- mony by this noteworthy ancient church father? As a matter of fact, there are several considerations that tend to reduce the usefulness of Irenaeus for late date advocacy. These will be brought forward in some detail.

The Translational Problem

Certainly the two initial considerations in any judgment regard- ing the interpretation of a crucial documentary witness are those of textual certainty and translational accuracy. In that there are no crucial questions regarding the integrity of the text of Irenaeus’s statement raised from either camp in the debate, we can move directly to consideration of the matter of translational accuracy.

On the matter of translation there has been a good deal of debate on various aspects of the statement in question. In fact, “this transla- tion has been disputed by a number of scholars.” 10 According to Peake and Farrar the problem of translational accuracy was first broached by J. J. Wetstein in 1751.] 1 We should note at the outset, however, that most scholars doubt there is a problem of translation. For instance, Robinson (an early date advocate) speaks of the alleged translational problem as “very dubious.” 12 Moffatt (a vigorous late date advocate) discounts the supposed problem with just one sen- tence, stating that the proposed revisions are “ingenious but quite unconvincing. ” 13 According to Barnes, Chapman “is frankly con- temptuous” against the proposed reconstruction of Irenaeus.’4 There are, however, a number of noted scholars who have disputed various parts of the common translation. Among these are J. J. Wetstein, M. J. Bovan, S. H. Chase, E. Bohmer, James M. Macdonald, Henry Hammond, F. J. A. Hort, Edward C. Selwyn, George Edmundson, Arthur S. Barnes, and J. J. Scott. 15

Three of the major problems with the generally accepted transla- tion will be dealt with below: (1) The referent of (“was seen”). (2) The significance of the time reference: (“no long time ago was it seen, but almost in our own time”). (3) The overall internal confusion in Irenaeus suggested by the incom- patibility of Irenaeus’s statements on Revelation.

Indisputably, the most serious potential objection to the common translation has to do with the understanding of “was seen. ” What is the subject of this verb? Is it “him who saw the Apocalypse” (i.e., John) or “the Apocalypse”? Which of these two antecedents “was seen” “almost” in Irenaeus’s time and near “the end of the reign of Domitian”? Swete records for us a significant observation from master expositor F. J. A. Hort: “Dr. Hort, it appears, in his lectures on the Apocalypse referred to an article by M. J. Bovan in the Revue de Theologie et de Philosophti (Lausanne, 1887), in which it was sug- gested that the subject of&opa@ in Iren. v. 30.3 is not rj &IoKcLhxpzc but d njv &ioKciJvyw $opaK6ro<, i.e. d Tcobwq<.’”7 Such is all the more significant when we consider the observations of the first English translators of Irenaeus:

The great work of Irenaeus, now for the first time translated into English, is utiortunately no longer extant in the original. It has come down to us only in an ancient Latin version, with the exception of the greater part of the first book, which has been preserved in the original Greek, through means of copious quotations made by Hippolytus and Epiphanies. The text, both Latin and Greek, is often most uncer- tain. . . .

Irenaeus, even in the original Greek, is often a very obscure writer. At times he expresses himself with remarkable clearness and terseness; but, upon the whole, his style is very involved and prolix.]8

S. H. Chase, the writer of one of the most persuasive and compre- hensive articles on this matter, heard Hort’s May, 1889, lecture and recorded some of that very lecture:
My note is as follows . . . : – ‘The passage of Irenaeus is urged against dating the Apocalypse shortly after Nero’s death. A suggestion, however, has been made in a French periodical: it is a question of the interpretation of Irenaeus. The writer raised the question whether Irenaeus means to say that the Apocalypse itself belongs to Domitian’s reign. What is the subject of .40pa0q? He or it? For the latter note the phrase just used [i.e. T05 Kaz’ rr)v ChTOK&@JW ~opcrK6zo<]. But there is the fact that the language of Irenaeus is difiicult on this [i.e. the common] theory. Why yap? But if Irenaeus meant that he, John, was seen, this is in accordance with his favourite phraseology.’19
For Hort, the (“for”) in Irenaeus’s statement is syntactically difllcult to account for unless it makes reference back to the main idea of the preceding statement: “it [the name of the Beast] would have been spoken @ him.” Chase notes that Irenaeus is fond of yhp in such contexts, which lends support to the re-interpretation of Irenaeus at this point .20 Hort also recognizes the general tendency of Irenaeus to use dpckw with persons, rather than of visions or things (such as a book, as here, i.e. Revelation). For as Swete comments of Hort’s position: “he admitted ‘the difficulty of accounting for yc@ on the common interpretation, and the force of the argument from the use of dpbo.’”z’

Chase moves beyond the purely grammatical ambiguity relative to syntactical structure to the actual thematic flow of the passage cited:

The logic of the sentences seems to me to require this interpretation. The statement that the vision was seen at the close of Domitian’s reign supplies no reason why the mysterious numbers should have been expounded “by him who saw the apocalypse,” had he judged such an exposition needful. If, on the other hand, we refer ;mpaeq to St John, the meaning is plain and simple. We may expand the sentences thus: “Had it been needful that the explanation of the name should be proclaimed to the men of our own day, that explanation would have been given by the author of the Book. For the author was seen on earth, he lived and held converse with his disciples, not so very long ago, but almost in our own generation. Thus, on the one hand, he lived years after he wrote the Book, and there was abundant opportunity for him to expound the riddle, had he wished to do so; and, on the other hand, since he lived on almost into our generation, the explanation, had he given it, must have been preserved to U S.”22
Chase’s observations are quite perceptive. Upon recognizing the ambiguity of the passage when narrowly conceived in terms of purely grammatico-syntactical analysis, he then proceeds upon sound her- meneutic principle to elucidate Irenaeus’s precise point by considera- tion of the contextual flow.

This sort of argumentation is why Wetstein, too, understood ‘~ohn” (which immediately preceding the verb becomes “him who saw the apocalypse”) to be the nominative of &Jpa6q, rather than “Revelation.”23 Macdonald agrees, and states the case dogmatically:

[Irenaeus] argues that if this knowledge [i.e., regarding the identity of 666] had been important at that time it would have been communi- cated by the writer of the Apocalypse, who lived so near their own time. . . . There was therefore really no ambiguity to be avoided, requiring him to use the name ofJohn or the personal pronoun as the subject of q, the verb of sight. The scope requires this nomina- tive and no other. 24
But there is still more to the contextual argument. In his Ecclesias- tical Histou (5:8:5,6) Eusebius again cites Irenaeus’s statement (Against Heresies 5:30:3), this time with more of the context (Against Heresies 5:30:1):
He states these things in the third book of his above-mentioned work. In the fifth book he speaks as follows concerning the Apocalypse of John, and the number of the name of Antichrist “As these things are so, and this number is found in all the approved and ancient copies, and those who saw John face to face confirm it, and reason teaches us that the number of the name of the beast, according to the mode of calculation among the Greeks, appears in its letters. . . .” And farther on he says concerning the same: “We are not bold enough to speak confidently of the name of Antichrist. For if it were necessary that his name should be declared clearly at the present time, it would have been announced by who saw the revelation. For it was seen, not long ago, but almost in our generation, toward the end of the reign of Domitian.”25
Notice should be made of the personal knowledge that is empha- sized by Irenaeus: “those who have seen John face to face testifj.” It rather clearly seems that the (“was seen”) of the latter quotation (the very one under consideration) is but the dim reflection of the former quotation’s more precise statement: (“those who have seen John face to face testifj”). In fact, the very verb in question (d@o, at Herewk 5:30:3) appears in this immediate context (in Agaimt Hereszks 5:30:1 ) employed of John himself ‘Ititiwqv topaK&ciw.26 Furthermore, “this interpretation is in harmony with the characteristic thought and phraseology of Irenaeus. “27 By this is meant that Irenaeus constantly emphasizes the organic and living unity of the Church’s life. Irenaeus shows a concern to demon- strate carefully that one Christian generation is in touch with the next generation since the time of the apostles. “The men of one generation heard from the lips of the men of the previous generation what they themselves had heard and seen. “28 We must recognize that Irenaeus’s work sought to demonstrate that “the same gospel which was first orally preached and transmitted was subsequently committed to writing and faithfully preserved in all the apostolic churches through the regular succession of the bishops and elders. “2 9

In the 1913 Bampton Lectures at the University of Oxford, George Edmundson offered his analysis of the problem, which is along the lines of Chase’s:

But surely this rendering [i.e., the common rendering of Irenaeus] is wrong. It should be “for he (St. John the writer) was seen . . . almost in our generation toward the end of the reign of Domitian.” It is of the Seer and his ability to declare the name of Antichrist that Irenaeus is speaking. The misunderstanding about the meaning of the passage is largely due to Eusebius, who after a reference to Domitian’s perse- cution proceeds “in this (persecution) report [he] tihns that the Apostle and Evangelist John, who was still living, in consequence of his testimony to the divine word was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos,” and then he quotes Irenaeus in support of his statement. 30
Edmundson feels that Eusebius imparted this wrong historical data as a result of reading too much into Origen’s comments on Matthew 20:22. That is, apparently Eusebius merely assumed that John was exiled to Patmos under Domitian, based on Origen’s obscure com- ment.3’ Edmundson thus surmised that this led Eusebius astray in his historical arrangement of the data at this point.

A further reaso~ for Irenaeus’s emphasis is that “to say of one ‘he was seen,’ meaning thereby he was still alive at a certain time, might seem unusual, whether in Greek or English, as applied to an ordinary man. When we consider, however, how much would be thought of seeing this most aged apostle who had seen the Lord, there is nothing unnatural in the use of such an expression. In fact this verb is applied to him in precisely the same sense in the be~nning of the chapter.”32

The evidence rehearsed above has not convinced everyone. Even early date advocates such as Hort, Stuart, Guericke, and Robinson 33 fail to endorse such a re-interpretation of Irenaeus. Stuart dismisses the re-interpretation on the grounds that “the ancients clearly under- stood the matter” along the lines of the common interpretation.34 Robinson points out two problems that appear to him to be fatal to the re-interpretation of Irenaeus. 35 The first is that the Latin transla- tion of Irenaeus stands against it by its use of viswn (which better suggests a thing, such as a book), instead of visa (which is more suggestive of a person). This argument is closely related to Stuart’s. The second is that Irenaeus twice elsewhere says John lived to Trajan’s reign, not just to Domitian’s.36 If Irenaeus is to be re- interpreted here along the lines of Chase and others then there would seem to be some confusion in Irenaeus’s record.

In response to these three objections, we offer the following explanations. First, regarding Stuart’s statement that the early fa- thers seemed to have understood him in terms of the common inter- pretation, it should be noted that although many ancient fathers employed Irenaeus with high regard, they do not seem to have regarded him as a final authority. For instance, contrary to Irenaeus, Tertullian placed John’s banishment after his being dipped in a cauldron of burning oil, which Jerome says was in Nero’s reign. 37 Photus preserved extracts of “Life of Timotheus” in which he states that John’s banishment was under Nero. Others who record a pre- Domitianic date for John’s banishment include: Epiphanies (Hewsie$ 51:12, 33), Arethas (Revelatwn 7:1-8), the Syriac versions of Revela- tion, Hi.rto~ ofJohn, th Son of Zebedee, and Theophylact (John). Though Eusebius quotes Irenaeus as proof of the date to which John lived (i.e., into the reign of Trajan),38 he disagrees with Irenaeus as to the Johannine authorship of Revelation. 39 In light of all this “We cannot accept a dubious expression of the Bishop of Lyons as adequate to set aside an overwhelming weight of evidence, alike external and internal, in proof of the fact that the Apocalypse was written, at the latest, soon after the death of Nero.”w

Second, the Latin translation of Irenaeus reads: quiet Apoca~psin uiderat. Neqw enim ante multum tempoti vi-sum est. The Latin translator may indeed have understood the Greek phrase as commonly under- stood. This may explain the visum est as opposed to the visa est. But it should be remembered that the Latin translation is not Irenaeus’s original and thus did not come with his imprimatur. Indeed, re- nowned Church historian John Laurence von Mosheim — who com- posed his famous Church history in Latin – spoke quite despairingly of the Latin translation of Irenaeus. He laments that Irenaeus’s writings “have reached us merely through the medium of a wretch- edly barbarous and obscure Latin translation.”4’ Schaff agrees that this translation employs “barbarous Latin. “42 Stuart calls it “a dead literality.”4 3 Having remarked on the obscurities of Irenaeus’s Greek (see quotation above), the translators of Irenaeus for the Ante-Nicesw Fathers add that “the Latin version adds to these difllculties of the original, by being itself of the most barbarous character. . . . Its author is unknown, but he was certainly little qualified for his task. “w

Not only was the translator inadequate to the task, but he probably had no independent knowledge of the matter apart from what he had learned fi-om his own reading of Irenaeus. Hence, his mistake (if it be one) could be due to the very real ambiguities of the text that have led modern Greek scholars into debate over the trans- lation.

In addition, it may well be that the Latin text is corrupt. The science of textual criticism has an impressive capacity to work back to the original readings of corrupted texts through the application of sound philological and critical principles. Chase suggests that the problem may indeed be one of accidental textual corruption in light of the following intrinsic probabilities: “The translator, especially with ujv&oKdiqJw before him in the Greek text, could not have been ignorant that ‘ALIOKCilVplC is a feminine substantive. Espe- cially when contractions were used, vim-s and uium would be easily confused. It appears to me probable that the somewhat strange vi.wm e.rt points back to an original ZJisus est. The latter words, if they seemed difficult, would easily be corrupted into vfium e$t.”45

The third problem with the re-interpretation of Irenaeus is ex- plaining how Irenaeus could speak of those who saw John toward the latter end of Domitian’s reign in light of the fact that he also tells us John lived into Trajan’s reign. In Agaimt Heresies Irenaeus writes that John “continued with the Elders till the times of Trajan.”4G Surely Irenaeus would not contradict himself by suggesting in one place that John lived until the end of Domitian’s reign, while in another saying that he lived to Trajan’s reign.

The problem, however, is not as diflicult to overcome as might initially appear. In the first place, Domitian died in A.D. 96 and Trajan became emperor in A.D. 98 (after a very brief reign by Nerva). Swete states of Irenaeus’s reference that it speaks of John’s “having lived to the time of Trajan, i.e. to the year 98 at least.”4 7 Orz@ two years separati th rei~. It is not unreasonable to suppose that almost a century later the two years’ difference separating the two emperors could have been blurred by Irenaeus. It must be remem- bered that dating then was very imprecise because chronicles were not kept by Christians. As Robinson notes regarding problems of chronology during that era: “The sources, Roman, Jewish, and Chris- tian, are largely uncoordinated and share no common canon of chronology such as is supposed by any modern historian.”48

In the second place, Irenaeus does not say (upon the reconstruc- tion of his argument as per Chase and others) that John died at the end of Domitian’s reign. He simply says he “was seen” (bpddq) at that time, perhaps by those who spoke to him face to face (to whom lrenaeus refers). Possibly there is a contrast of ideas between these two references, a contrast that involves John’s advanced age: “Obvi- ously the statement that the Apostle ‘was seen at the close of Domi- tian’s’ reign cannot be considered inconsistent with the statement that ‘he continued with the Elders till the times of Trajan.’ It may well be that there is an intentional contrast between the phrase IZt--6jJElVEV aikof~ and &opc@q. The former appears to me simply to suggest the idea of survival, the latter (as used by Irenaeus) of free intercourse. ln his extreme old age, in ‘the times of Trajan,’ [if it be well into Trajan’s re@, KLG] it can hardly be but that, though he ‘continued with’ the Church, St John withdrew from the society of the Christians at Ephesus; he was no longer ‘seen.’ “4 9 Such is an entirely reasonable hypothesis.


166 posted on 01/15/2011 6:44:23 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

Dayum dude. There’s more conjecture, could be’s and possibles in that excerpt to leave one with more surety that the “majority” are correct in that the writing was definitely at the end of Domition’s reign. The later date also fits better with the rest of scripture. All in all I’ll take that as supporting my views. Thanks.


167 posted on 01/15/2011 7:09:33 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

I hope you realize the difference between scholarly writing and the swill you’ve been ingesting (and passing off as your own).


168 posted on 01/15/2011 7:16:39 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

I’ll stick with the real scholars and leave the dying Preterist falsehoods to those of you pushing the Theonomy and reconstuctionist mantra.


169 posted on 01/15/2011 7:46:26 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Lee N. Field; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...
". . . that the concrete land promise that a certain eschatological school obsesses about, hardly seems to matter to the New Testament writers . . . "

GOODNESS!

With such a shocking level of Biblical ignorance,

NO WONDER

REPLACEMENTARIANS et al

are so clueless about eschatology!

Or perhaps Revelation 7, 10, 15, 20, 21 & 22 are not in their rubberized "Bibles?"

Shocking.

170 posted on 01/15/2011 7:54:32 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

LOL.

How would you assess my explanation of security clearances

vs

the . . . stuff . . . from the REPLACEMENTARIANS on the other side?


171 posted on 01/15/2011 7:56:46 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: ReformedBeckite

No, that is not what I meant to imply; we are saved by grace through faith. Not by works. Any works we do are just evidence of our faith.

I see by your screenname that you once may have been a “Beckite”. He is Mormon, last I knew. They are quite works-oriented, in addition to issues I won’t go into here.

I was referring to the end of the age- rapture territory- that the thread was about. Professing our faith may have adverse fleshly consequences. I don’t consider that a “work”.

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Peace, FRiend; thank you for your request for clarification.


172 posted on 01/15/2011 7:57:13 PM PST by One Name
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To: topcat54

Grope Grope.


173 posted on 01/15/2011 7:58:25 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: CynicalBear

INDEED.


174 posted on 01/15/2011 7:59:20 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
How would you assess my explanation of security clearances

vs

the . . . stuff . . . from the REPLACEMENTARIANS on the other side?

You are spot on.

175 posted on 01/15/2011 8:06:20 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: OpusatFR

Thanks- I’m a fellow traveller who would prefer to die of old age whittling on the porch but suspect that may not be the case...

I’ve struggled my whole life to live up to the grace I have received. I’m a failure at being a “good Christian”.

But, I cannot deny what I know to be true- God will give me the strength to claim his redemption through Jesus Christ whatever the earthly consequences.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


176 posted on 01/15/2011 8:08:54 PM PST by One Name
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To: CynicalBear
I’ll stick with the real scholars and leave the dying Preterist falsehoods to those of you pushing the Theonomy and reconstuctionist mantra.

You sure can string together non sequiturs. I realize how desperate you are to avoid the subject at hand, which is the error of dspensational futurism and its unbiblical teaching on the pre-trib rapture. So desperate you will quote the words of others without thought and attribution.

Sad.

177 posted on 01/15/2011 8:24:15 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

Thanks for the confirmation. Was certainly my experience as well as the experiences of every other such clearance experienced and savy person I’ve ever known . . .

except for the clueless sorts hereon.
.

Welllllllllllllll. overdue for a shower.

God’s best to you this week.


178 posted on 01/16/2011 12:08:06 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

since when did you start believing what st iraneus has to say? i thought Catholics were pagan?


179 posted on 01/16/2011 6:52:51 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

I don’t believe a LOT of things attributed to the early Christian writers.

I don’t disbelieve EVERYTHING attributed to the early Christian writers.

Do you believe EVERTHING CNN says?

Do you DISBELIEVE EVERYTHING CNN says?

How about everything attributed to your mayor?

Your governor?

Your local altar boy trainer?

Many RC’s ARE pagan in their beliefs and practices.

I don’t believe everything 100% of all RC’s do is pagan.

Do yellow lights give you heart burn?


180 posted on 01/16/2011 7:42:45 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

you are very entertaining, the contradictions of your beliefs. when you want to establish when the Book of Revelation was written, Iraneus is ok in your book, since he was taught by Polycarp, who in turn, was taught by John. However, when i point out Iraneus believed in baptismal regeneration, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, apostolic succession, the Catholic Church, the Sacrifice of the Mass, he is a pagan!!
remember my friend, the Catholic Church has been here since 33ad, and so have it’s enemies. deal with it!


181 posted on 01/16/2011 8:36:37 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

...and born- again Christians have been here since the day of Pentecost......


182 posted on 01/16/2011 8:44:43 AM PST by muddypaws
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To: muddypaws

yes and they are found in the Church.


183 posted on 01/16/2011 8:47:05 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

It is a hallmark of those whose agenda is to divide via inflaming arguments that they persist in trying to make everything an either or proposition. You’re no more a Christian advocating for Jesus Christ than the demonically inspired girl with the familiar spirit who followed Paul around proclaiming he had the word for salvation. You’re working FR from Mormonism to the Catholic v Proddy discussions. You’re not here advocating for Jesus Christ, nor really even the Catholic Chruch. You’re here playing at agitprop ... the question is, for whom are you working, ‘cause it sure isn’t for The Savior of Mankind.


184 posted on 01/16/2011 8:50:16 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

agenda to divide??? no, no, no, a thousand times no. you don’t read me accurately! i believe the Church is ONE, because Jesus is One! i am trying to bring those who appear to divide the Body of Christ before the world, into unity with the Church. This is the will of Jesus as expressed in John 17 and Paul expains why this is important in 1 Corinthians. Please, please Read John 17 and pray about it.


185 posted on 01/16/2011 8:56:00 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
agenda to divide??? no, no, no, a thousand times no. you don’t read me accurately! i believe the Church is ONE, because Jesus is One! i am trying to bring those who appear to divide the Body of Christ before the world, into unity with the Church. This is the will of Jesus as expressed in John 17 and Paul expains why this is important in 1 Corinthians. Please, please Read John 17 and pray about it.

Wonder who Christ was speaking to when He said in Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Course one does need to begin reading verse 1 of chapter 12 to find the reason and meat of what is being said. And of course finish the chapter to finish His instruction.

186 posted on 01/16/2011 9:10:28 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts

the division is between the believer and unbeliever, to the elect and the lost, between those that do the will of the Father and those who do the will of Satan.
Please read John 17 and 1 Corinthians 1 and tell me if divisions within those that claim the name of Christian is God’s will?
I live in South Jersey and in my town, within a two mile area, we have a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, SDA, JW, AOG, and 2 “independent” churches. Now, if you think that is what Luke 12 is referring to, i am sure Jesus must be very pleased then.


187 posted on 01/16/2011 9:24:47 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Just mythoughts; Quix

Don’t expect the poster to comprehend what these groups have in common. It is very Catholic to ignore the catholic-ness of all who profess the Jesus of the Bible as Lord and Savior, for such Catholics are advocating for their institution, whereas catholics are advocating for the Savior. There are lots and lots of catholics in the Catholic faith. I know many. There are also lots of institutionalized Catholics attending mass who need more than anything to trust in the Savior instead of an institution which cannot save them.


188 posted on 01/16/2011 9:47:19 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

189 posted on 01/16/2011 9:52:07 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

I’ll leave the thread.


190 posted on 01/16/2011 9:55:13 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
the division is between the believer and unbeliever, to the elect and the lost, between those that do the will of the Father and those who do the will of Satan. Please read John 17 and 1 Corinthians 1 and tell me if divisions within those that claim the name of Christian is God’s will? I live in South Jersey and in my town, within a two mile area, we have a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, SDA, JW, AOG, and 2 “independent” churches. Now, if you think that is what Luke 12 is referring to, i am sure Jesus must be very pleased then.

First the Heavenly Father is in control, and He allows what He will.

Christ set the standard/path as the 'bridegroom' as to how one measures whether the 'division' be of and from Him.

Christ did not ever hand off to another flesh/physical being His place of 'Saviour' and authority to hand out or pass out salvation. And if the flesh being claims to have said power and authority they are deceived and are deceivers. NOT one of we in a flesh body saves anyone else.

191 posted on 01/16/2011 10:32:06 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts

Jesus is the only Savior, He alone died on the cross and it is this Sacrifice which atones for sin and makes peace with the Father possible. If anyone believes this Jesus did not found a Church, in which He uses as the instrument thru which He accomplishes saving His people, this person is deceived. If anyone believes Jesus did not give His Church authority to teach and baptize, he hasn’t read Matthew 28 and is deceived. If anyone believes Jesus did not send the Holy Spirit to this Church to lead it to all truth and gave the keys of the kingdom to the Church, they are deceived. If anyone believes there is more than one Church, they are deceived. If anyone believes the Church is not the pillar of truth, they are deceived. If anyone believes you can be saved without being a member of the Body of Christ on earth, the Church, they are deceived. If anyone believes you can have your sins forgiven or are added to the Body of Christ any other way than being baptized, they are decieved. If anyone believes this Church has not been on the earth continuously from 33ad to the present, they are deveived.
There are a lot of deceived people in the world.


192 posted on 01/16/2011 10:48:36 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; ...

More false assertions and rubberized history.

The RCC has been around only after 300 some odd AD.

Truth in advertising is honorable.

The opposite, is not.


193 posted on 01/16/2011 2:33:51 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Particularly in the RC Charismatic groups.

I wonder what percentage of the

“authentic,” Real, NON-RCINC folks

—the authentic 20% of those who self report as Roman Catholic . . . what percentage of those are Charismatic RC’s.

An interesting question.


194 posted on 01/16/2011 2:35:32 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: MHGinTN

INDEED.


195 posted on 01/16/2011 2:36:43 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Photobucket

!NOPE!
THE PATHETIC, HILARIOUS,
BRAZEN DECEPTION
IS
that the RCC has been around earlier
than 300AD.

196 posted on 01/16/2011 2:41:35 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
Remember Mary Tyler Moore or was it Marlo Thomas that had an intro to either "That Girl" or about being free to be me? You may too young for these programs. Now I remember ... It was a book Marlo Thomas and Alan Alda "Free to be you and me". Your comment brought this to mind.

Let us we stay humble (teachable) before the LORD and not lose our joy, and hope; let us grow in wisdom and knowledge and pass it on to those that may be overcomers, or not, because we do not know, and yet not become prideful like Hezekiah, we can be to be examples in the will of God.

Pray believing, without doubt. I have not succeeded in keeping out questions and doubt, have you?

In God there is no shadow of turning.

197 posted on 01/16/2011 3:08:40 PM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: geologist

GREAT POINTS.

Yet again.

Thanks.


198 posted on 01/16/2011 3:12:57 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

you keep making this assertion about the RCC being started around 300ad. let’s explore that for truthfulness, ok?
first, i’d like to know who started the Catholic Church?
what year?
what “true Christians” opposed the Catholic Church at it’s founding?
what were the new or special doctrines that the Catholic Church taught at it’s founding that differed it from the true Christians at the time?
tell me where the term RCC was first used and by whom?
What happened to the Church at Rome when the Catholic Church was founded?

let’s see what “facts” can be provided to back the assertion.


199 posted on 01/16/2011 4:01:09 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

here are the answers to my questions from #199 in order:
Jesus Christ
33ad
none
none
11th century in the Great Schism, prior to that the whole Catholic Church was in commuion with each other.
The Church at Rome didn’t exist before the founding of the Catholic Church, since the Catholic Church was started in 33ad in Jerusalem. It would be a few years before the Apostles arrived at Rome

there you have it.


200 posted on 01/16/2011 4:17:18 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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