Skip to comments.The Not So Secret Rapture
Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
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Why did Paul tell us to arm ourselves if we are NOT going to have to face the fiery darts of the devil? Paul does not say one word in Ephesians 6 to indicate that anyone still alive in flesh would be getting a fast trip out of here. Christ is coming here on God's Green earth to 'rule', and John says even the devil knows he has but a short time to set up his kingdom of deception...
Its surely becoming obvious they have their agenda and no amount of fact will lead them to truth. I keep in mind the readers of these threads who never post. I cant just leave the reader with only the wrong view I guess.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
That’s why I bother, too.
I think you’re right.
it’s a bit shocking to me, that in spite of my plethera of posts,
so many of y’all seem to have even as much as 0.000000000000000000000000001% of an accurate clue about my ATTitude about much of anything.
Clearly discerning attitudes correctly must have a LOT to do with the eye of the beholder . . . or their hearts.
No Christian has yet had a literal 'face to face' like Christ did when the devil tempted Christ. That was NOT a demonstration of the strength of Christ, but an example of what Christians would be faced with that draws an end to this flesh age.
The devil is getting tossed out here on this earth, claiming and even appearing as if he is Jesus. Now how do you suppose Jesus loving Christians are going to be feeling when they figure out they were deceived and bend their knees to Baal. IT IS NOT going to be a pretty picture when the LORD of LORDs and KING of KINGS returns to fine his 'bride' out whoring with the impostor.
But Christ said He gave us power over our enemies... but there comes a time when the devil will get tossed out here on this earth and he comes in a the granddaddy peace peace peace maker... and he will deceived all those who have the ‘mark’ willingly taken.
See the tribulation is NOT of flesh and blood but the deception of a fake supernatural being pretending to be Jesus. But he the fake only gets a short time of playing Jesus before he gets banished for a time.
Nothing Scriptural about your post; it’s more like parroting words of others. Not interested - I have The Truth.
It is NOT correct to claim there is Nothing Scriptural about your post; but I won't waste my or your time in posting the very Scripture evidence.
I'm always hesitant to have any conversation with anyone that proudly proclaims they have the truth, let alone some one who might humbly proclaim it. Either way whether they proudly proclaim it, or humbly proclaim it I'm pretty suspicious of people like that, next thing you know they will be inviting you to a some strange tent meeting, asking you for your money while dancing around singing some praise god, praise god dance as if they are in some drug induced happy time. And with all the Churches in this country you think they could find a Church instead of a tent. kind of makes one suspicious of them all.
This thread is hilarious.
Why dont you just go to where you can read the book yourself like I did. Youre beginning to look a little lame hoping with your assumptions of where I get my information. Heres another site for you.
>> See the tribulation is NOT of flesh and blood but the deception of a fake supernatural being pretending to be Jesus.<<
So you believe that Revelation is only metaphor?
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
We will have to die to be in what is called the rapture. even Jesus died but many people do not want to die but they want to go to heaven as they are, and we can see how popular that would be to people who were new to the truth.
Make merchandise out of the gospel and watch the money role in.
Here is yet another source to read Irenaeus book 5. Just to show there are multiple sources for real research when one cares for truth.
I’m always hesitant to have any conversation with anyone that proudly proclaims they have the truth
“A lot of US churches teach a version of the rapture that leads many suburbanites to believe that they will go straight from their air-conditioned houses or their air-conditioned SUVs to heaven.”
That is the best line I’ve read yet.
Wanting Christ without the Cross makes God sound like the purveyor of jelly-belly beans and unicorns.
Before I depart this thread let me give two suggested interruptions to Irenaeus statement for first is basically what you guys hold and that is and I quote for a book I'll mention at the end of this post. Here is the quote ""Did Irenaeus mean: "the Revelation was seen in a vision by John almost in our generation"? This is the commonly accepted view
or was he saying "John, who saw the Revelation, was seen alive almost in our generation"? This is a grammatically possible view--one which I hold to be preferable."<----end of quote. The quotes or Quotes came from "The Beast of Revelation by Dr. Kenneth Gentry, a good book at least us post mills think it is, I know you premill would condemn it and burn it just like the Nazi burn unauthorized books.
Oh I hold to the second view, John was seen alive in our generation. He did live a long life even though the Romans tried to kill him several time.
Oh I probably won't be coming back to this thread, I can not spend to much time freeping on FR and get other stuff done.
So is your sources the truth but if we post our sources they are false sources. Boy you premill’s really are humble people. < /s>
So you accuse others of using only books supporting their view then do the same yourself? Just wow!
“Truthfully I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise; your faith has saved you.”
There was no punctuation in the original writings; the emphasis could have, and most likely was, a common AFTER the word ‘today’. To then read “Truthfully I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise...”
We know that no ‘dead’ are with Christ yet as the Bible says upon His return ‘the dead in Christ will rise first’.
Believers are raptured upon Christ’s return so that we are not destroyed along with the evil ones. There’s very much a purpose of being raptured, just not in a secret way, 7 yrs before Christ’s return.
>> This is a grammatically possible view—one which I hold to be preferable<<
it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitians reign.
who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, The apocalyptic vision was seen. You cant distort that to fit your view.
There is no way to grammatically change the meaning of that portion of what Irenaeus wrote. Do try to do so is deceit and grammatical illiteracy. Its for that was seen referring to the vision. NOT for he was seen.
Going through the Tribulation would ensure that believers are going to be destroyed along with the evil ones between the judgments of God and the mark of the beast thing.
Unless you hold that God's judgments are going to hit only unbelievers but I don't see anything in Scripture that supports that.
Besides, I don't see anything indicating the Rapture is going to be secret. You don't think people are not going to notice millions of people missing?
I have never heard that put so well.
Or that it won't happen in their lifetime as they have been predicting for so long.
Irenaeus is not infallibly inspired. Neither are his interpreters. I wouldn't want to be handing my anti-theology on the writings of men.
You are wrong. Christ destroys the earth upon His return.
2 Peter 3:10-11
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[b] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
But it's not proof. It's an opinion. You don't seem to understand that by trotting out Irenaeus to try an prove something you cannot prove; the exact date of Revelation.
No one said Irenaeus was infallible but he is the closest resource with direct knowledge as to the timing of the writing of Revelation. To directly contradict someone who studied under the person who was a direct Apostle of John is foolish. His statement is the most authoritative we have as to the time. His statement of when Revelation was written and his statement of not knowing the name of the Anti Christ puts Preterists in the category of error.
I wasn’t talking about the remaking of the earth, but all the judgments in Revelation, the bowl judgments, etc.
Look, Revelation is difficult enough to interpret. What’s really going to happen if going to happen whether we get it right or not. Some one is going to be surprised and disappointed no matter which way it falls out.
Pre-trib Rapture fits the best with Bible prophecy, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it if it’s wrong.
Honestly, I’ve never seen people get so hot and bothered over a doctrine which has less impact on one’s salvation than end times prophecy.
The “hot and bothered” has more to do with attempting to diminish support among evangelicals for the modern state of Israel than any sort of grave eschatological concern, imho. We’ve got a “ringer” or two on the forum who only push that one button constantly.
Actually, the Bible is filled with the teaching of predestination/election. What Calvinism teaches is actually Double predestination, which is not supported in the Bible. I would challenge any to find a passage where the Lord says he has chosen some for damnation.
As you rightly quoted John 3:16, all who believe will be saved.
If a person is saved, it means God has chosen him and given him grace. If a person is lost, it means that the person has resisted God's grace (Romans 8:29,30).
2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Ephesians 1:4-6 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.<
Ephesians 2:8 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
John 15:16 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruitfruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name
Predestination is a deep teaching. We try to reason that if God elected some for eternal life, than he must have elected some for eternal damnation. But scripture is very clear that God wants all to be saved. Truth is God has not made known the mystery of predestination and our human minds cannot use logic to explain it.
But it is a profound teaching in which it shows God loves us so much, he has done everything for us. For a believer in Christ this is the ultimate comfort because I know my salvation does not rely on me, a lowly sinner.
Here is a great quote from Martin Luther in regards to predestination:
"God has given men reason so that they can milk cows, bridle horses, and know that a hundred gulden are more than ten. Show your wisdom there; be a master and a good helper; use your knowledge. But here, when it come to the question how we are to be saved, in heavenly matters and matters of faith, stop your reason, keep still, listen and say: Here I can no longer operate; this is different from the matters related above. Curb your reason, therefore, and say: I do not understand this; I will not figure or measure it but will keep still and listen, for it is beyond my measuring and is incomprehensible to reason.
Predestination/election is spoken of extensively by the Apostle Paul in Romans 8 & 9 and Ephesians 1.
Sorry for such a long post, but I feel this is an extremely important part of scripture, which can bring great comfort to believers, despite our not being able to comprehend it fully.
Stan Deyo's site
Stan Deyo? Stan "I'm a double nought spy" Deyo? Whose claims to "above top secret" clearance have been shown to be bogus, and on that account is either a charlatan or a fool, or both?
He spins a compelling tale, I'm sure. Maybe the Men in Black
stop by, and fill him in on the latest conspiracy buzz.
Wise words to live by.
I’m not sure who’s getting ‘hot and bothered’; I’m certainly not. But I do not believe that a secret rapture is scriptural. And that’s unfortunate because I’d REALLY like to be removed now, if not sooner :)
If you read Ezekiel, or about the plagues (for two, in particular), you’ll read that God has an awesome way of sanctifying the believers and protecting them. When he poured out all the plagues, the children of Israel weren’t affected. Same goes for the destruction he was telling Ezekiel was coming. He told Ezekiel to have the scribe mark the foreheads of those that sigh and cry over the abominations and he would not touch them.
Also the blood on the door jambs would protect his children. The point is, believers will be protected during the tribulation but they will not be removed. We don’t leave until Christ’s real, loud, visual return and that’s where he destroys everything, except us.
1) That's basically a Romanist/traditionalist argument. Fine if you wish to make it and hang your hat on it. It only carries weight with other traditionalists.
2) His statement is not as crystal clear as you make it out to be. There are original language expert who cannot say for sure that his comment was a direct reference to the book of Revelation.
3) You're treating his somewhat unclear words as if there are infallible and trump all other arguments.
4) Many good conservative theologians disagree with the traditionalist AD96 date preferring a pre-AD70 date.
5) You choose to ignore or discount all the counter arguments. You can't win an argument that way.
6) Using this then to claim preterists or other non-traditionalists are in error is pure cop out.
Very entertaining. Thank you. I am in need of some hilarious inanity this morning. This fits the bill very neatly.
One of the most ignored verses by rapturenaut dispensationalists and associated futurists.
Good catch. You're a trooper. I generally ignore our friend's posts cuz they hurt my eyes and head.
Satan never ceases, does he?
Regardless of whatever interpretation of the end times someone has, if they don’t support Israel, God is NOT going to bless them.
Personally, this is one of my favorite threads going about Israel.
Pray For the Peace of Jerusalem(1/15/11)[Prayer]
Genesis 12:1-3 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your fathers house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
In reading Revelation there is continual reference to those left on the earth not repenting of their sin, and wehn God destroys Babylon, it’s for the evil in it.
What other reason do you propose for God poring out judgment on the earth? The fun of it? He has nothing better to do?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
2 Corinthians 5:68 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
On the Last Day, when Jesus Christ returns visibly and in glory, our bodies will be raised from the dead, restored, and reunited with our souls:
John 5:2829 28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come outthose who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
1 Corinthians 15:5154 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: Death has been swallowed up in victory.
In the eternal presence of the Lord, that is, in heaven, we will enjoy pleasures forevermore, in body and soul together:
Psalm 16:911 9 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, 10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy Oned see decay. 11 You have madee known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
1 Thessalonians 4:1318 13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lords own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.