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The Rapture
ligonier.org ^ | Ligonier Ministries

Posted on 01/15/2011 10:44:22 AM PST by topcat54

In the past one-hundred and fifty years or so, some Christians have argued that there will actually be two comings of Christ. Believers from the dispensational tradition have said that there will be a “secret rapture” of Christ a few years before His visible return. While even those who confess a secret rapture disagree about its timing, the idea basically says that at some point, the church will be removed from the world by Jesus in order that it might escape an ensuing tribulation. Jesus will then make His physical return some time later, usually three and one-half to seven years after the rapture.

The problem with this idea is that there are no passages of Scripture that clearly teach this view. In fact, the idea that believers are guaranteed a safe haven is hard to find in the pages of Scripture. From the faithful remnant that went into exile with the nation of Israel to Jesus’ promise that the days of suffering will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22), Scripture makes it clear that believers can and will face tribulation.

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TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: eschatology
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1 posted on 01/15/2011 10:44:24 AM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54

Sometimes I wonder if these misconception arise because of failure of some Christians to read the ENTIRE word of God.

The answers are usually plain and succint.

Matthew 24:11-13
(11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
(12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
(13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What part of “endure to the end” clouds this issue?


2 posted on 01/15/2011 10:50:08 AM PST by Aleya2Fairlie
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To: Aleya2Fairlie

“misconceptions” plural and “succinct”. Sorry for the sloppiness.


3 posted on 01/15/2011 10:52:15 AM PST by Aleya2Fairlie
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To: topcat54

interesting. i had no idea RC Sproul was this far off base. guess i will quit listening. there is plenty of scripture that presents the idea of the church being protected from the timeof testing that will come upon the rest of the world.


4 posted on 01/15/2011 10:53:27 AM PST by applpie
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To: topcat54

Noah and Lot were both removed before the judgement and Christ said referred to each when He spoke of the end times.

John was brought up to heaven prior to seeing the judgement that will take place on earth described in the Book of Revelation.


5 posted on 01/15/2011 10:53:43 AM PST by killermosquito (Buffalo (and eventually France) is what you get when liberalism runs its course.)
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To: topcat54

bookmark for reference


6 posted on 01/15/2011 10:55:21 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: applpie

Dr. Sproul deserves our respect and attention. Simply he disagrees with some of us on our view of the Departure of the Church does not mean he cannot teach the Word of God to us in a deep and eternal way. He is from the Reformed tradition. That he is our Brother should mean we respect and love him and not ignore him.


7 posted on 01/15/2011 10:58:44 AM PST by righttackle44
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To: topcat54

Rev 21:27 “...nothing unclean shall enter heaven”
Matt 5:26 “”...you will not be released until the last penny is paid”
1 Cor 3:15 “...suffer loss, but saved as through fire”
Here’s some more from Paul:
Romans 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12- work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1 Cor 9:27 - drive your body for fear of being disqualified
1 Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure,the may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2 Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ


8 posted on 01/15/2011 10:59:51 AM PST by G Larry
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To: Aleya2Fairlie
What part of “endure to the end” clouds this issue?

The part that pertains to the Nation of Israel and not the Church.
9 posted on 01/15/2011 11:00:17 AM PST by righttackle44
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To: righttackle44

Have you ever considered that there is a small percentage of believersd who are the Bride of Christ (those whom kept their lamps trimmed) among the larger percentage of believers who wax cold? The coming int he clouds and trumpet sounding/call of the ArchAngel is very akin to the then Jewish scene of ‘coming for the betrothed when the wedding is ready’. Another clue is the groups present in heaven at the wedding feast ... we know that no one will be in Heaven except through Him.


10 posted on 01/15/2011 11:07:35 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

Perhaps you could explain your explanation. I can’t tell whether you’re fur it or again’ it.


11 posted on 01/15/2011 11:10:27 AM PST by righttackle44
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To: topcat54

Here we go again......................


12 posted on 01/15/2011 11:19:25 AM PST by ducttape45
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To: righttackle44

Doesn’t matter, since he’s wrong on this account, he’s probably wrong on others. It only takes one wrong teaching to be labeled a false prophet.


13 posted on 01/15/2011 11:22:02 AM PST by ducttape45
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To: applpie
You are right. There is an overwhelming amount of scripture that points to a pretribulation rapture of the church. There are also many O.T. types that point to the same truth. I've found it most interesting that many of those who promote the idea of the church going thru the tribulation, seem to almost desire it! It's quite odd! The Bride of Christ is not supposed to be looking for the Antichrist or the tribulation period; we're supposed to be looking for the Bridegroom, Jesus!
14 posted on 01/15/2011 11:35:38 AM PST by Arcy
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To: topcat54; All

If there is one, my wife and kids will go. I shall remain behind to be one of GOD’S troops!


15 posted on 01/15/2011 11:42:06 AM PST by TMSuchman (John 15;13 & Exodus 21:22-25)
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To: killermosquito

Actually they weren’t removed. They were technically protected through the judgment. They didn’t leave the earth. They went through it, protected. And they worked for over 100 years building that ark as well. Warning people about the coming judgment.


16 posted on 01/15/2011 11:49:14 AM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Aleya2Fairlie
Matthew 25 - Parable of Ten Virgins 1 Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

2 Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.

5 Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' 9 But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' 10 And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

11 Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' 12 But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' 13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

It has long been my belief that the key perogative is "be ready". There shall be those who are ready....and there will be those who are not. The day and the hour are not ours to wrestle with, but rather if we are indeed among the prudent and ready or the foolish and unprepared.

The day and the hour will come regardless of our understanding.

17 posted on 01/15/2011 11:50:08 AM PST by Mobilemitter (We must learn to fin >-)> for ourselves.........)
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To: topcat54

Why does it matter when He comes or how many times? I want to be ready and go with Him the very first time He comes for me...that said...I do believe in the rapture. Sometimes ones heart leads the way, through scripture. If the Holy Spirit can put it in your heart to believe it doesn’t matter if you can’t explain it to another to their satisfaction. Our focus should be on having a personal relationship with Him and loving Him with all our heart,soul and mind.


18 posted on 01/15/2011 11:51:13 AM PST by Ramonne
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To: righttackle44

? far out dude! To each his own.


19 posted on 01/15/2011 11:56:05 AM PST by Aleya2Fairlie
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To: Ramonne

Put it this way, I certainly would not mind at all if there is a rapture before things get terribly ugly. If there is one, I would of course rather be raptured than have to go through part or all of the tribulation period.

However, I think as part of the ‘being ready’ mindset, preparing to have to go through it, as much as you believe you need to, is part of ‘being ready’ for that possibility.

Because I see evidence that both scenarios could be possible. Pray for the best case, prepare for the worst. Trust God whatever happens.


20 posted on 01/15/2011 12:00:58 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: MHGinTN

No, I haven’t. I’m not much into the “Left Behind” series.


21 posted on 01/15/2011 12:08:01 PM PST by Aleya2Fairlie
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To: Aleya2Fairlie

I’ve never read it. But I’m fairly acquainted with The Bible.


22 posted on 01/15/2011 12:19:05 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Exactly, I agree. It could be(and Scripture somewhat bears this out) that those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior will be protected from the horrors, but will still be present on the Earth, as in this part of The Revelation, Chapter 9. Verse 4 speaks of those with the Seal of God on their foreheads as still being present on the Earth.

“The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.”


23 posted on 01/15/2011 12:28:47 PM PST by Aleya2Fairlie
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To: topcat54

This is the high water mark of deception. Not the single coming of Jesus Christ, I believe in that, I’m not a pretrib rapturist, what is so deceptive is both R.C. Sproul and topcat are Preterists. They’d both be better off as dispensationalists, what they are is far worse.

Typical of Preterists, they come out attacking the dispensationalists while never telling you what they are.

Now, both Sproul and topcat are “partial” preterists, that is they believe all of Jesus’ Olivet discourse plus the whole of Revelation was fulfilled in AD 70 - except for the second coming...which topcat places AFTER the millennial in Rev. 20. Of which there is not a shred of evidence for.

About as preposterous, and cowardly, a doctrine as ever devised by the mind of man. Prophecy bothers their poor timed and cowardly souls, the opt instead for a complete prophetic vacuum. Only the most timid and cowardly soul falls for such a scheme.

So called “partial” preterist is about as credible as being partial pregnant.


24 posted on 01/15/2011 12:30:13 PM PST by sasportas
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To: topcat54
Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot
And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercurys and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move to slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure
Take a tour, through the sewer
Don't strain your brain, paint a train
You'll be singin' in the rain
I said don't stop, do punk rock
.
.
Well now you see what you wanna be
Just have your party on TV
'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on
And now he's gone back up to space
Where he won't have a hassle with the human race
And you hip-hop, and you don't stop
Just blast off, sure shot
'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars!

25 posted on 01/15/2011 12:36:08 PM PST by Hoodat (Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. - (Rom 8:37))
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To: ducttape45

A Sad response. Please don’t bother answering me. You might be wrong about something, then you’d be a false prophet.


26 posted on 01/15/2011 1:05:10 PM PST by righttackle44
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To: sasportas

Re: my statememt, So called “partial” preterist is about as credible as being partial pregnant.

To elaborate, the so called “full” preterists see the inconsistency of the “partials,” they correctly realize you can’t divorce the second coming of Matt. 24:29-31 from the tribulation that precede it. They correctly understand that Christ comes “immediately after the tribulation of those days.” You can’t claim the tribulation of those verses for AD 67-70, and not the coming which comes immediately after it. The “full” preterists, therefore have the coming of Christ having taken place in 70 AD also. At least they are honest and consistent.

The “fulls” claim “this generation” to be the generation that saw ALL of the Olivet discourse, including the second coming, fulfilled in 70 AD. The “partials,” running from the reproach of having Christ already come, try to distance themselves from it by conjuring up a second coming at the end of the millennial. Of which the Bible has no such thing.

I actually have more respect for the “fulls” than the partial pregnant types like Sproul and topcat. Like I said, at least they are consistent.


27 posted on 01/15/2011 1:26:49 PM PST by sasportas
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To: topcat54
William Lane Craig also holds this position and has an interesting podcast series regarding the doctrines of the last things which can be found on his podcast page here just scroll down to the series.

The one where he talks about the rapture is in the second file here.
28 posted on 01/15/2011 1:32:33 PM PST by thatjoeguy (Wind is just air, but pushier.)
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To: sasportas

To elaborate on preterists being timid and cowardly.
Admittedly, those of us who believe “the tribulation of those days,” and the astronomical signs that announce the second coming, haven’t happened yet, have to man up, prophecy is a rough and tumble affair, it’s not for timid and cowardly.

The timid and cowardly don’t have the stomach for “prophecy wars” nor for the actual and real fulfullment of all these things in Matt. 24 and the Revelation. They aren’t man enough to “man up.” They opt instead for such devises as partial and full preterism.


29 posted on 01/15/2011 1:46:21 PM PST by sasportas
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To: sasportas

To clarify timid and cowardly. Prophecy is not for the timid and cowardly, those afraid of controversy. The kind of controversy and ridicule that naturally accompanies endtime prophecy. Which all people like topcat know how to do - ridicule. Rather than man up, they ridicule.


30 posted on 01/15/2011 1:53:34 PM PST by sasportas
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To: thatjoeguy

I went to your link. I listened to the audio about a third of the way, and I agree with what he said about on singular coming, but perhaps you could cut to the chase and tell me whether or not he is a preterist. As I have tried to point out on this thread, preterists like Sproul and topcat make the same claim. The singular second coming is true, but the preterism that most of them hide from view, is not.


31 posted on 01/15/2011 2:12:32 PM PST by sasportas
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To: sasportas

Whoops, sorry. Honestly I didn’t know RC Sproul was a preterist. I only joined in regarding the rapture issue, my oops.

To the chase then, William Lane Craig is NOT a preterist as he discusses that slant of the various views on the end times in another audio of that series. Actually one or two files later I think.


32 posted on 01/15/2011 2:20:51 PM PST by thatjoeguy (Wind is just air, but pushier.)
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To: sasportas

I’m glad to hear that...and it goes along with his general theme “Reasonable Faith.” Both preterism and multiple second comings are unreasonable.

The gimmick preterist use is to attack pretribs and dispensationalists, mean while hiding what they are. And then after they get the pretribs coming their way, they introduce them to, what they present as the only other alternative to pretrib and dispy - their preterist or postmill scheme. Very sneaky.


33 posted on 01/15/2011 2:39:13 PM PST by sasportas
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To: thatjoeguy

Oops, post 33 was supposed to be addressed to you.


34 posted on 01/15/2011 2:41:10 PM PST by sasportas
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To: topcat54

The Bible minus the Westminster Catechism equals preterism, tradition, straw man arguments, mischaracterizations and falsehoods.

P.S. I feel for your confused current location... You are very similar to my two pastors and many ofthe elders in my church...I’ll be praying for you and for them...


35 posted on 01/15/2011 2:49:17 PM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: thatjoeguy

I didn’t know RC Sproul was a preterist.

For most of his ministering life Sproul was not, it is only in recent years that he came out for preterism. The preterists showcase him like the movie stars democrats and repubs showcase at their conventions. He is one of their biggest heroes. I used to like his stuff pretty much, I see him now as an apostate.


36 posted on 01/15/2011 3:30:27 PM PST by sasportas
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To: fishtank
 The Bible minus the Westminster Catechism equals preterism, tradition, straw man arguments, mischaracterizations and falsehoods. 

  I don't get it. 

37 posted on 01/15/2011 4:50:39 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: sasportas

You know you’re talking to yourself? And not saying anything?


38 posted on 01/15/2011 4:54:06 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: righttackle44
 The part that pertains to the Nation of Israel and not the Church.  

  You have some red letter version of the Bible?  For Israel vs For the Church?   Or is this just a manifestation of the dispensational error?

39 posted on 01/15/2011 5:03:32 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: sasportas

how can you be an “apostate” if you don’t believe a doctrine no one ever believed or heard of before the 19th century????


40 posted on 01/15/2011 5:04:56 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Some claim the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) is the first to promote preterist ideas. If so, then Protestants who buy into it are part of the Roman Catholic system. I find no trace of it prior to Alcazar.


41 posted on 01/15/2011 5:48:52 PM PST by sasportas
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To: sasportas

i read your posts, i’m sorry, i thought you were supporting the “pre-trib” rapture, two second comings by Christ theory.


42 posted on 01/15/2011 6:23:53 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: sasportas

Some claim the Spanish Jesuit Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) is the first to promote futurist ideas. If so, then Protestants who buy into it are part of the Roman Catholic system.


43 posted on 01/15/2011 6:50:24 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: sasportas
Re: my statememt, So called “partial” preterist is about as credible as being partial pregnant.

This from a so-called futurist premil who can find any statements of futurist premillennialism among the early church fathers in spite of his claims.

I actually have more respect for the “fulls” than the partial pregnant types like Sproul and topcat. Like I said, at least they are consistent.

I'd be more concerned about your false claims regarding the ECF.

44 posted on 01/15/2011 6:54:31 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: righttackle44

I’m not in the business of “predicting” anything. I just tell people what the Bible says, that’s all. Don’t blame the messenger.


45 posted on 01/15/2011 7:08:43 PM PST by ducttape45
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To: sasportas; one Lord one faith one baptism
Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesías en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826. (Cited here)
46 posted on 01/15/2011 7:14:12 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: sasportas

Correction: “who can’t find any statements”


47 posted on 01/15/2011 7:17:42 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

You can’t discern the differences between the Church and the Nation Israel in Scripture? That’s not my problem. And, by the way, you don’t seem to be all that loving in your differences with a fellow Christian. I don’t really think I want to fellowship with you.


48 posted on 01/15/2011 7:26:35 PM PST by righttackle44
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To: righttackle44
You can’t discern the differences between the Church and the Nation Israel in Scripture?

Of course, but you were suggesting that certain words were only written to Israel without any shred of support. I was just wondering whether you had some magic peep stones to show the distinction.

49 posted on 01/15/2011 8:26:50 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: fishtank

should be: “The Westminster Catechism minus the Bible “ equals preterism, tradition, straw man arguments, mischaracterizations and falsehoods.

P.S. I feel for your confused current location... You are very similar to my two pastors and many ofthe elders in my church...I’ll be praying for you and for them...


50 posted on 01/15/2011 8:30:17 PM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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