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Mohler takes on 'theistic evolution'
Associated Baptist Press ^ | January 13, 2011 | Bob Allen

Posted on 01/16/2011 4:09:10 PM PST by balch3

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Nail meet hammer. Dr Mohler is an intellectual giant.
1 posted on 01/16/2011 4:09:12 PM PST by balch3
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To: balch3

Giants do not exist.


2 posted on 01/16/2011 4:14:17 PM PST by Goldsborough
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To: balch3

The argument that Darwin is right and that evolution is how we became thinking, feeling humans is unimaginative, unproven hocum.

Young earth theory...ditto.


3 posted on 01/16/2011 4:17:53 PM PST by Grunthor (Enemy of the state)
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To: balch3

My Pastor believes in theistic evolution ... it seems to be a popular PCA heresy these days


4 posted on 01/16/2011 4:18:01 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: balch3

5 posted on 01/16/2011 4:19:39 PM PST by stormer
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To: RnMomof7

“My Pastor believes in theistic evolution ... it seems to be a popular PCA heresy these days”

Chalk it up to intellectualism in the denomination.


6 posted on 01/16/2011 4:21:30 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: balch3

This has the potential to be a ‘Five Figure’ thread !!!


7 posted on 01/16/2011 4:23:33 PM PST by 11th_VA (Bush is gone, long live the Tea Party ....)
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To: All

Some helpful resources:

http://www.icr.org/

http://deanbible.org/andromeda.php?q=f&f=%2FAudio+Files%2FWHBC+Guest+Speakers+and+Conferences%2FChafer+Theological+Seminary+Pastors+Conferences%2F2010+-+Chafer+Theological+Seminary+Pastors+Conf


8 posted on 01/16/2011 4:24:03 PM PST by onthelookout777
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To: onthelookout777

thanks!


9 posted on 01/16/2011 4:26:38 PM PST by balch3
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To: stormer

So we have observations of monkeys becoming people?


10 posted on 01/16/2011 4:27:46 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: BenKenobi

I don’t think so, but what has that got to do with evolution?


11 posted on 01/16/2011 4:34:17 PM PST by stormer
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To: BenKenobi; stormer

Sorry Ben, you’ve got to know the pedantic trap that being set here.

Stormy here will say that we didn’t come from monkeys; instead, we and monkeys come from a common ancestor.

Which for all intents and purposes was a monkey, but to the pedant it wasn’t a monkey because hey, monkeys didn’t exist yet. Some bugaboo ancestor existed that has bones lying in a tarpit somewhere waiting to be found. And it looks strangely like a monkey.


12 posted on 01/16/2011 4:52:19 PM PST by angryoldfatman
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To: BenKenobi
Like this ancestor.



Oh wait, except it's not an ancestor. It's just another monkey... er, ah... lemur.
13 posted on 01/16/2011 4:57:32 PM PST by angryoldfatman
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To: BenKenobi

The scientific theory of evolution has shown that modern humans and “monkeys” share a common ancestor, it does not state that monkeys became people.

Your misrepresentation of science only makes you look foolish. Doesn’t the 9th commandment say something about bearing false witness?


14 posted on 01/16/2011 4:59:42 PM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: balch3

We have come to realize that only adult species can produce offspring of its kind. Recently scientists in England ‘discovered’ that the chicken came first - the egg just cannot appear. Biblical Christians knew that from Genesis 1 - thousands of years ago.
All scientists know the first and second Laws of Thermodynamics; thus, they realize that life CANNOT come from non-life. They also realize that things move from order to disorder not the other way around.
EXCEPT in their theory of evolution - which they have not been able to repeat in the lab. So much for science.
Also, in the Greek language there are at least three words for life - one refers to the body, one to the mind, and one to the spirit/soul of man.
Evolutionists only speak of ‘bios’ the body. They don’t even have answers as to how we acquired our minds and the ability to think abstractly. They don’t have answers to the heart (conscience or enthusiasm and vitality in life.)
I believe that takes a much bigger leap of faith to believe in evolution than it does to belive in God and special creation.


15 posted on 01/16/2011 4:59:47 PM PST by PastorJimCM (truth matters)
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To: PastorJimCM
What does the Second Law of Thermodynamics have to do with your assertion that 'life cannot come from non-life'?

Recently scientists in England ‘discovered’ that the chicken came first - the egg just cannot appear.

It only takes common sense. If the egg came first, how could it hatch without a chicken having incubated it? You don't need mythology to figure that one out.

16 posted on 01/16/2011 5:06:09 PM PST by James C. Bennett
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To: Ira_Louvin

So then there’s no observations of monkeys becoming people.

Thank you.


17 posted on 01/16/2011 5:07:28 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: Ira_Louvin; BenKenobi
The scientific theory of evolution has shown that modern humans and “monkeys” share a common ancestor, it does not state that monkeys became people.

Well, you're a bit wrong for two reasons. First, the "scientific" theory of evolution at one time claimed that the orangutan was the ancestor of the mongoloid race, the gorilla the ancestor of the negroid race, and the chimpanzee the ancestor of the caucasian race (that was back before any of us alive now were born). After further study showed that to be impossible they started positing that both the great apes and humans had a common ancestor. It was later posited that various representatives of zinjanthropus were ancestors of something that was the ancestor of something else that was the ancestor of the modern human. But just remember, there's a whole lot of positing going on, not because the evidence requires it, but because presuppositions made necessary by certain forms of the theory required it.
18 posted on 01/16/2011 5:08:34 PM PST by aruanan
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To: stormer

Evolution isn’t a scientific theory. Scientific theories are based around observational evidence.

Faith, however doesn’t require observational evidence. So the faith of Darwinism trumps the science of speciation.


19 posted on 01/16/2011 5:09:48 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: RnMomof7

“it seems to be a popular PCA heresy these days”

It seems to be making some inroads into the OPC also, via “Framework Theory.”


20 posted on 01/16/2011 5:10:04 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: aruanan

Darwinists don’t know their own history. Sad panda is sad. :(


21 posted on 01/16/2011 5:11:05 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: stormer

My dear FRiend, your cartoon shows what evolutionists do. They can’t stand the notion of God creating the earth in six days and all very good. They are determined to find an alternate version of creation. They come up with the conclusion of evolution and then make up or misapply facts to support it.


22 posted on 01/16/2011 5:11:11 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: BenKenobi

“So we have observations of monkeys becoming people?”

Ah yes. And gobs of evolutionary links.

Also, we’ve observed life coming from non-life.

And beneficial mutations.

(SARC)


23 posted on 01/16/2011 5:12:16 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Goldsborough; balch3
Giants do not exist.

Right. And if they appear to be one, they are easily taken down. They only thing giant about them is their ego. A simple pea brain trying to outwit Supernatural God - since they know better. Nothing makes me laugh more than someone of that mushy banana mindset.
24 posted on 01/16/2011 5:21:25 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Persevero

>>They can’t stand the notion of God creating the earth in six days and all very good.<<

But it says in Genesis 1:2 that the earth was without form and void. If that was the first thing He did it doesn’t sound like that was very good.


25 posted on 01/16/2011 5:29:33 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Ira_Louvin
Your misrepresentation of science only makes you look foolish. Doesn’t the 9th commandment say something about bearing false witness?

Do Darwics have their own commandments? Darwinism is a religion and the Darwics bow at the altar of deception/satan.
26 posted on 01/16/2011 5:31:28 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: BenKenobi
Darwinists don’t know their own history. Sad panda is sad. :(

I went to a school once that was able to buy the entire library of a very old school. It had many first editions of the whole panoply of evolutionary writers of the 18th century. It was a real hoot to read some of those and to see them say exactly what neo-Darwinists now claim the old-time Darwinists never said and had been falsely attributed to them by opponents of Darwinian evolution.
27 posted on 01/16/2011 5:31:33 PM PST by aruanan
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To: BenKenobi

If A stawman is the best you have then I guess you have to go with it...nice try better luck next time.


28 posted on 01/16/2011 5:32:06 PM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: PastorJimCM

You are incorrect the Evolutionary theory does not address the origin of life.

It is no valid objection that science as yet throws no light on the far higher problem of the essence or origin of life ~ Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species (1909), 519-520

But nice straw man…good try!


29 posted on 01/16/2011 5:36:37 PM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: balch3

Kind of hard to get past the fact that speciation has never been observed and so is not established as factual.

And I don’t know why a pastor would want to bend his beliefs merely so they will fit an antiquated proposition which is defied by the fossil record.


30 posted on 01/16/2011 5:40:14 PM PST by reasonisfaith (Rules will never work for radicals (liberals) because they seek chaos. And don't even know it.)
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To: Ira_Louvin

Strawman?

So say I buy the existance of an unobserved ‘common ancestor’ between all the different races of apes and men.

Can you tell me the identity of said ‘common ancestor’? It’s taxonomy?


31 posted on 01/16/2011 5:43:02 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: Ira_Louvin
The scientific theory of evolution has shown that modern humans and “monkeys” share a common ancestor...Doesn’t the 9th commandment say something about bearing false witness?

No, misotheists have claimed that their interpretation of the evidence allows a statistical probability that "monkeys" and modern humans share a common ancestor. To say otherwise makes you guilty of "bearing false witness".

32 posted on 01/16/2011 5:43:36 PM PST by The Theophilus
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To: aruanan

First year history of science class. Ought to be required reading for everyone.

We read the original Origin of Species and the Descent of Man. History of Science is a fascinating discipline, and I ended up switching over. I loved examining the process by how scientists made the discoveries that they did.

That other scientists and scientists in general are unaware of this process shows their lack of understanding of the scientific method.

Lamarckian descent is interesting to say the least.


33 posted on 01/16/2011 5:46:35 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: James C. Bennett

Lifc cannot come from non-life is drawn from the First Law of Thermodynamics.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics deals with entropy and thus things go from order to disorder.


34 posted on 01/16/2011 5:48:02 PM PST by PastorJimCM (truth matters)
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To: Ira_Louvin

I realize that - I’m sorry I guess I did not state it clearly. What I am trying to commmunicate it that evolution has many unanswered questions including where the human mind originated (with all its complexities) and where the soul/spirit of man came from. In creation those origins are anwered.


35 posted on 01/16/2011 5:52:10 PM PST by PastorJimCM (truth matters)
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To: BenKenobi
Again the facts show that you are incorrect

A major evolutionary innovation has unfurled right in front of researchers' eyes. It's the first time evolution has been caught in the act of making such a rare and complex new trait.Link

Good try but your straw man will not work here.

36 posted on 01/16/2011 5:56:10 PM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: PastorJimCM; kosta50; stormer

The First Law of Thermodynamics refers to the fact that energy can neither be created, nor destroyed, but transformed from one form to another - at least until nuclear physics came along and showed that mass can be converted to actually create energy. It tells next to nothing, if not nothing, about whether life can come from non-life or not.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics, for application, requires the condition that the there exist a containment of energy within the system. The Earth, however, receives trillions of megajoules of energy from the Sun and other sources, and hence, the application of the Second Law requires careful consideration of this fact. Things can go from disorder to order, within a system (the Earth) when energy is input into the system.


37 posted on 01/16/2011 6:03:56 PM PST by James C. Bennett
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To: PastorJimCM

[They also realize that things move from order to disorder not the other way around.]

Except in instances where one system gains order at the expense of another.

The relationship between the Earth’s Biosphere and the Sun, for example.


38 posted on 01/16/2011 6:05:06 PM PST by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: PastorJimCM

The question of where the soul/sprit of man came from is a religious question which is the reason that creationist attempt to answer the question, it is not a question that science can answer since it deals with the supernatural…so it is still a straw man and not a vaild argument.


39 posted on 01/16/2011 6:08:56 PM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: LomanBill; PastorJimCM
"[They also realize that things move from order to disorder not the other way around.]"

"Except in instances where one system gains order at the expense of another. The relationship between the Earth’s Biosphere and the Sun, for example."

What order does the earth's biosphere gain at what cost in order from the Sun?

40 posted on 01/16/2011 6:10:42 PM PST by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: CynicalBear

Well, read the whole thing, Cynical Bear.

Genesis Chapter One

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”

7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.

8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.

10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.

12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.

16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,

18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.

19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”

21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”

23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.

25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


41 posted on 01/16/2011 6:15:52 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: BenKenobi
"So the faith of Darwinism trumps the science of speciation."

All we really see is reproduction among interbreeding species or kinds. Walter ReMine's discontinuity systematics is a good start to understanding how the various species are organized as kinds

42 posted on 01/16/2011 6:18:39 PM PST by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: stormer

Wow, naturalists are honest brokers, eh? And SO intellectual! Just like the ones who have foisted global warming and ethanol debacles upon the citizenry. I do not believe in “young earth” creationism, but the idea that amoebas, through billions of positive random mutations, became men and women, is laughable. Bob


43 posted on 01/16/2011 6:24:50 PM PST by alstewartfan ("Only in the darkest places will she feel at home tonight." from Mixed Blessing by Al Stewart)
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To: reasonisfaith

The fossil record PROVES evolution? All eveos are ultimately saying is thatwe know it all happened but we can’t replicate any of it! Cordially, Bob


44 posted on 01/16/2011 6:28:17 PM PST by alstewartfan ("Only in the darkest places will she feel at home tonight." from Mixed Blessing by Al Stewart)
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To: angryoldfatman

I do believe that this specimen is a human ancestor! Grandpa once chased that hottie! Bob


45 posted on 01/16/2011 6:31:38 PM PST by alstewartfan ("Only in the darkest places will she feel at home tonight." from Mixed Blessing by Al Stewart)
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To: Persevero

That’s all fine and good. Oh, I’ve read it many times. In fact studied it rather extensively. That still doesn’t change the fact that the first thing He created ended up vohu a bohu, without form and void. Can you answer why the first thing you say He did was such a mess in verse 2? After all, everything He created after that was very good.


46 posted on 01/16/2011 6:32:04 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: alstewartfan

Which is a significant problem because the scientific method says that in order for it to be proven correct, it has to be replicable.

Personally, I think Biology would be liberated without Darwinism. Pitch all that overboard, start from scratch. I’d bet you’d see some real developments when you stopped assuming Darwin was right.


47 posted on 01/16/2011 6:32:57 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: CynicalBear

Painters need paint, and an easel. Arguing that the creation process is messy, is just how it works.


48 posted on 01/16/2011 6:34:17 PM PST by BenKenobi
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To: BenKenobi
Yes a classic example of a straw man, you set up a false argument that the Evolutionary theory states the “Humans came from Monkey’”. That is not a valid argument since that is not what the Evolutionary theory states

As to the evidence of a common ancestor here you go.

Traces of our evolutionary past are also evident at the molecular level. If you think about it, the fact that organisms have evolved successively from relatively simple ancestors implies that a record of evolutionary change is present in the cells of each of us, in our DNA. When an ancestral species gives rise to two or more descendants, those descendants will initially exhibit fairly high overall similarity in their DNA. However, as the descendants evolve independently, they will accumulate more and more differences in their DNA. Consequently, organisms that are more distantly related would be expected to accumulate a greater number of evolutionary differences, whereas two species that are more closely related should share a greater portion of their DNA.

Link

49 posted on 01/16/2011 6:37:21 PM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: GourmetDan

I’m aware of DNA charts that attempt to show systematically that A is like B.

They assume that the shortest path to A is through B which is Ockham’s Razor.

However, they assume that A gradually became B, and that’s not really what we see in the fossil record. We see discontinuities. It’s not a straight gradual process like erosion, where over time one species becomes another. We see dead ends, reversions, regressions, etc. We see spikes and peaks and valleys.


50 posted on 01/16/2011 6:37:41 PM PST by BenKenobi
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