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Purgatory Exists. And It Burns
Chiesa ^ | 1/17/11 | Sandro Magister

Posted on 01/17/2011 3:20:20 AM PST by markomalley

ROME, January 17, 2011 – In illustrating the life of Saint Catherine of Genoa, at the general audience last Wednesday, Benedict XVI took the thought of this saint as a point of departure to explain what purgatory is.

During the second half of the 15th century, the time of Catherine, the contemporary image of purgatory was like the one depicted above. It was the mountain of purification sung of by Dante in the "Divine Comedy."

That purgatory is a physical place is a very ancient conviction, which endured until recent times.

But not for Catherine. For her, the fire of purgatory was essentially thought of as an interior fire.

And Benedict XVI has completely agreed with her.

Some in the media have covered this catechesis of pope Joseph Ratzinger, placing it among the good news. As if the pope had decreed not so much the interiority of purgatory, but its wholesome disappearance. A disappearance, moreover, that to a large extent has already taken place in the current preaching of the Church, as of several decades ago.

But the teaching of Benedict XVI says exactly the opposite. Not the disappearance of purgatory, but its true reality.

Almost no one has recalled this. But Benedict XVI has written his most powerful pages on purgatory in the encyclical "Spe Salvi," the most personal of the three encyclicals he has published so far, the only one planned and written entirely by him alone, from the first line to the last.

Below is presented the passage of the catechesis on Saint Catherine of Genoa relating to purgatory.

And immediately afterward, the paragraphs from "Spe Salvi" also dedicated to purgatory, against the background of the judgment of God, which "is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace."


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"THIS IS PURGATORY, AN INTERIOR FIRE"

by Benedict XVI


From the general audience of  January 12, 2011


[...] Catherine's thought on purgatory, for which she is particularly known, is condensed in the last two parts of the book mentioned at the beginning: "Treatise on Purgatory" and "Dialogues on the Soul and Body."

It is important to observe that, in her mystical experience, Catherine never had specific revelations on purgatory or on souls that are being purified there. However, in the writings inspired by our saint purgatory is a central element, and the way of describing it has original characteristics in relation to her era.

The first original feature refers to the "place" of the purification of souls. In her time [purgatory] was presented primarily with recourse to images connected to space: There was thought of a certain space where purgatory would be found. For Catherine, instead, purgatory is not represented as an element of the landscape of the core of the earth; it is a fire that is not exterior but interior.

This is purgatory, an interior fire. The saint speaks of the soul's journey of purification to full communion with God, based on her own experience of profound sorrow for the sins committed, in contrast to the infinite love of God. We have heard about the moment of her conversion, when Catherine suddenly felt God's goodness, the infinite distance of her life from this goodness and a burning fire within her. And this is the fire that purifies, it is the interior fire of purgatory.

Here also there is an original feature in relation to the thought of the era. She does not begin, in fact, from the beyond to narrate the torments of purgatory – as was usual at that time and perhaps also today – and then indicate the path for purification or conversion. Instead our saint begins from her own interior experience of her life on the path to eternity.

The soul, says Catherine, appears before God still bound to the desires and the sorrow that derive from sin, and this makes it impossible for it to enjoy the Beatific Vision of God. Catherine affirms that God is so pure and holy that the soul with stains of sin cannot be in the presence of the Divine Majesty. And we also realize how far we are, how full we are of so many things, so that we cannot see God. The soul is conscious of the immense love and perfect justice of God and, in consequence, suffers for not having responded correctly and perfectly to that love, and that is why the love itself of God becomes a flame. Love itself purifies it from its dross of sin.

Theological and mystical sources typical of the era can be found in Catherine's work. Particularly there is an image from Dionysius the Areopagite: that of the golden thread that unites the human heart with God himself. When God has purified man, he ties him with a very fine thread of gold, which is his love, and attracts him to himself with such strong affection that man remains as "overcome and conquered and altogether outside himself." Thus the human heart is invaded by the love of God, which becomes the only guide, the sole motor of his existence.

This situation of elevation to God and of abandonment to his will, expressed in the image of the thread, is used by Catherine to express the action of the divine light on souls in purgatory, light that purifies them and elevates them to the splendors of the shining rays of God.

Dear friends, the saints, in their experience of union with God, reach such profound "knowledge" of the divine mysteries, in which love and knowledge are fused, that they are of help to theologians themselves in their task of study, of "intelligentia fidei," of "intelligentia" of the mysteries of the faith, of real deepening in the mysteries, for example, of what purgatory is. [...]

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"HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, BUT ONLY AS THROUGH FIRE..."

by Benedict XVI


From the encyclical "Spe Salvi" of November 30, 2007


[...] I am convinced that the question of justice constitutes the essential argument, or in any case the strongest argument, in favour of faith in eternal life. The purely individual need for a fulfilment that is denied to us in this life, for an everlasting love that we await, is certainly an important motive for believing that man was made for eternity; but only in connection with the impossibility that the injustice of history should be the final word does the necessity for Christ's return and for new life become fully convincing.

44. To protest against God in the name of justice is not helpful. A world without God is a world without hope (cf. Eph 2:12). Only God can create justice. And faith gives us the certainty that he does so. The image of the Last Judgement is not primarily an image of terror, but an image of hope; for us it may even be the decisive image of hope. Is it not also a frightening image? I would say: it is an image that evokes responsibility, an image, therefore, of that fear of which Saint Hilary spoke when he said that all our fear has its place in love.

God is justice and creates justice. This is our consolation and our hope. And in his justice there is also grace. This we know by turning our gaze to the crucified and risen Christ. Both these things – justice and grace – must be seen in their correct inner relationship. Grace does not cancel out justice. It does not make wrong into right. It is not a sponge which wipes everything away, so that whatever someone has done on earth ends up being of equal value. Dostoevsky, for example, was right to protest against this kind of Heaven and this kind of grace in his novel "The Brothers Karamazov."

Evildoers, in the end, do not sit at table at the eternal banquet beside their victims without distinction, as though nothing had happened. [...] In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Lk 16:19-31), Jesus admonishes us through the image of a soul destroyed by arrogance and opulence, who has created an impassable chasm between himself and the poor man; the chasm of being trapped within material pleasures; the chasm of forgetting the other, of incapacity to love, which then becomes a burning and unquenchable thirst. We must note that in this parable Jesus is not referring to the final destiny after the Last Judgement, but is taking up a notion found, inter alia, in early Judaism, namely that of an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a state in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.

45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God.

The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory. We do not need to examine here the complex historical paths of this development; it is enough to ask what it actually means.

With death, our life-choice becomes definitive?our life stands before the judge. Our choice, which in the course of an entire life takes on a certain shape, can have a variety of forms. There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell. On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours?people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are.

46. Yet we know from experience that neither case is normal in human life. For the great majority of people – we may suppose – there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil?much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul.

What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the impurity they have amassed through life suddenly cease to matter? What else might occur? Saint Paul, in his First Letter to the Corinthians, gives us an idea of the differing impact of God's judgement according to each person's particular circumstances. He does this using images which in some way try to express the invisible, without it being possible for us to conceptualize these images?simply because we can neither see into the world beyond death nor do we have any experience of it.

Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15).

In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.

It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning?it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ.

The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice – the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all.

The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together – judgement and grace – that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).

48. A further point must be mentioned here, because it is important for the practice of Christian hope. Early Jewish thought includes the idea that one can help the deceased in their intermediate state through prayer (see for example 2 Macc 12:38-45; first century BC). The equivalent practice was readily adopted by Christians and is common to the Eastern and Western Church.

The East does not recognize the purifying and expiatory suffering of souls in the afterlife, but it does acknowledge various levels of beatitude and of suffering in the intermediate state. The souls of the departed can, however, receive “solace and refreshment” through the Eucharist, prayer and almsgiving. The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death?this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today. Who would not feel the need to convey to their departed loved ones a sign of kindness, a gesture of gratitude or even a request for pardon?

Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Saviour, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other – my prayer for him – can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God's time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain.

In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too. As Christians we should never limit ourselves to asking: how can I save myself? We should also ask: what can I do in order that others may be saved and that for them too the star of hope may rise? Then I will have done my utmost for my own personal salvation as well. [...]

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The complete text of the encyclical:

> "Spe Salvi"

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The complete text of Benedict XVI's catechesis on Saint Catherine of Genoa:

> General audience of January 12, 2011


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic
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1 posted on 01/17/2011 3:20:21 AM PST by markomalley
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To: markomalley

Good on you!

I hope you dusted off your flame suit for the fires of FR purgatory-deniers!


2 posted on 01/17/2011 4:15:09 AM PST by Houghton M.
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To: Houghton M.

Sadly I have work to do today.

But I shall pop in when I can.

Good luck sir!


3 posted on 01/17/2011 4:23:26 AM PST by BenKenobi
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To: markomalley

ping


4 posted on 01/17/2011 4:40:37 AM PST by ruptured duck (He shoots....and boom goes the dynamite!)
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To: Houghton M.
I hope you dusted off your flame suit for the fires of FR purgatory-deniers!

FR Bible deniers (see I Cor 3:13-15) are not the issue.

Dante aficionados are what worry me ;-)

5 posted on 01/17/2011 4:49:21 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley
in her mystical experience

Truth is not based on any individuals "mystical experience". Jesus does not speak of purgatory...rather that in Him we are complete and completely forgiven. Salvation is or not received this side of death.

6 posted on 01/17/2011 4:51:18 AM PST by caww
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To: caww; Houghton M.
Salvation is or not received this side of death.

And St Paul testifies so. But he also testifies of the purifying fire in I Cor 3:13-15. If you choose not to buy what St Paul says, though, that's your business.

7 posted on 01/17/2011 4:53:16 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley
And St Paul testifies so. But he also testifies of the purifying fire

Either Christ's death and ressurection paid "in full" for our forgiveness or not. Can;t have it both ways...otherwise His death was in vain.

8 posted on 01/17/2011 5:03:02 AM PST by caww
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To: markomalley

Purgatory? I do not think so. Brings to mind the time of crucifixion, and Jesus speaks to one of the thieves on the cross beside him:

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I think it is telling the use of the word “Today”, not “next week”, not “soon”, not “I’ll get back to you after your stay in purgatory”.

Purgatory - Just another man-made piece of ‘religion’.


9 posted on 01/17/2011 5:05:23 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: caww; RoadGumby; Houghton M.

Hey, you can deny the Sacred Scriptures if you want. Your business, not mine. Just remember the warning of Col 2:8.

I’d rather stick with what St Paul says, thank you very much.


10 posted on 01/17/2011 5:08:33 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley

Stick with St Paul, my salvation rests in Jesus, Son of God and His words said Today.


11 posted on 01/17/2011 5:11:09 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: RoadGumby
Stick with St Paul, my salvation rests in Jesus, Son of God and His words said Today.

Pity that you don't listen to His words.

Trust in the Scriptures, FRiend, not in the traditions of men that nullify those Scriptures. (Luke 12:58-59)

12 posted on 01/17/2011 5:14:44 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: caww

And second chances are not given on the other side. Life is the time of choosing.


13 posted on 01/17/2011 5:17:59 AM PST by Jack of all Trades (Stop the change - I want to get off!)
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To: markomalley

Thats just what I said, I’ll follow Jesus. Thank you, for when my time comes, as with the thief, TODAY, I’ll be in paradise with my Lord and Savior.


14 posted on 01/17/2011 6:08:12 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: RoadGumby

RoadGumby, that’s the thing. The punctuation is relatively recent; the addition of it made it easier for people to study. As the Bible was divided into chapters and verses, punctuation was added, since the originals did not include punctuation. That means that this passage was originally something like “And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise” - The emphasis could just as easily have been more “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Here’s a bit from fisheaters that rather nicely explains the Catholic position on Purgatory, and is certainly more eloquent than I. (from here: http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html)

First, a definition is in order: what is Purgatory?

Purgatory is not Hell minus a few torments and degrees Fahrenheit; it’s not Heaven minus joy. It’s not a “Third Final Destination” of souls. Purgatory is simply the place where already saved souls are cleansed of the temporal effects of sin before they are allowed to see the holy face of Almighty God. Revelation 21:27 tells us that “...nothing unclean will enter [Heaven].”

That there are temporal effects of sin is obvious when one considers that even those who have been baptized, who have a deep and intimate relationshp with Jesus, who are the “elect” or “the saved/being saved,” or what have you, are subject to pain, work, death and sickness.

The best way to understand the idea of already being forgiven but still having to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin is by analogy: imagine you are the parent of a 7-year old child who steals a candy bar from the local grocery. The child is repentant, in tears, sobbing his apologies. You, being the good parent (as God, our Father is!) forgive that child and love him and show him your mercy. But being a good parent means that you are also just and will expect that child to pay back the store. Purgatory is God’s way of forgiving us, loving us, showing us His mercy and justice — and making us “pay back the store.” Can you imagine what would happen to the child of a parent who never expected that child to “pay back the store” (especially when that same parent believed also that there was nothing that child could do to become “disinherited,” as in the “once saved, always saved” doctrine)? As always, the best way to understand Catholic doctrine is to think of God as the wisest, most loving, most merciful, and most just Father that we can possibly envision.

Nota bene: Purgatory is His way of ensuring that Revelation 21:27 is true and that nothing unclean will see Heaven. It is only through Christ’s sacrifice that we are shown this mercy! It is Christ and Christ alone Who allows us access to the Father.

OK, so where’s the word “Purgatory” in the Bible? It’s isn’t in the Bible, but neither are the words “Trinity,” “abortion,” “lesbianism,” and “cloning” (or “Rapture,” for that matter), and it doesn’t matter whether you call the process of purgation “purgatory” or the “Final Theosis”: the concept of a “final cleansing” or “purgation” for those who require it is very evident in the Bible, in the writings of the early Church Fathers, and in the Old Testament religion whence Christianity sprang.

Daniel 12:2, Matthew 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, 2 Timothy 1:16-18, Hebrews 12:14, Hebrews 12:22-23, 1 Peter 4:6 and Revelation 21:10, 27 all speak of Purgatory in their telling of the need for purification, prayers for the dead, Christ’s preaching to the dead, or how nothing unclean will see God.

Tertullian comes right out and says in The Crown 3:3, dated A.D. 211, “We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries”. Cyprian of Carthage writes in A.D. 253:

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.

From St. John Chrysostom in his Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:5, A.D. 392:

Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

to St. Augustine’s A.D. 419. City of God:

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment”

the Church Fathers speak of purgation.

Archaeology also indicates the antiquity of the Christian belief in Purgatory/the Final Theosis: the tombs of the ancient Christians were inscribed with words of petition for peace and for rest, and at the anniversaries of deaths, the faithful gathered at the graves of the departed to make intercession for those who’d gone before.

Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this “place” of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the “Chevra kaddisha — gmilat khessed shel emet,” the “Holy Society” or “Burial Society” of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one’s purification.

Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory:

Sabbath 33b:
“The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months.”

Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
“It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: “There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between.”

The completely righteous will be recorded and sealed at once for eternal life. The completely wicked will be recorded and doomed at once to Gehinnom, as it says: “And many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise up, some to eternal life and some to shame and eternal rejection” [Daniel 12:2]. Those in between will go down to Gehinnom and cry out and rise up, as it says: “And I will bring the third part through the fire and refine them as silver is refined and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer them” [Zechariah 13:9]

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process, and the same theme is reflected in Wisdom 3:1-7 and II Maccabees 12:43-45, both contained in the Deuterocanonical books that Protestants refer to as “The Apocrypha.”

Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox have always proclaimed the reality of the final purification for those who need it. It was not until the Protestant Reformers came in the 1500s that any Christians denied the idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.

Footnotes
1 The Talmud, consisting of the writings of rabbis who came to believe they’d replaced the authority of Jewish priesthood after the destruction of the Temple, has some extremely vile, racist and anti-Christian statements in it. My purpose in quoting it here is not to condone it, but to demonstrate that the Jews most definitely believed in a purgatorial process after death. For more information on how Jesus and non-Jewish people (”goyim”) are written about in the Talmud, do a simple web search for those terms — but be warned that among search returns carrying sincere information and quests for Truth, you will get a lot of racist sites whose creators revel in this sort of information and see it as somehow “proving” that there is something evil about those who were simply born Jewish. Cultural criticism is one thing, but who one’s parents are never matters to our Lord!

Relevant Scripture

2 Samuel 12:13-16
David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.” Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uri’ah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. [Note that God has “put away” David’s sins, but David still fasts. This is the same as in Numbers, when Moses was still excluded from the Promised Land even after he was forgiven for his sin of striking the rock twice with his rod.]

2 Maccabees 12:43-46
He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

Wisdom 3:1-7
But the souls of the just are in God’s hand; no torment will touch them. in the eyes of the foolish they seemed to be dead; their departure was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us a disaster. But they are at peace, for though in the sight of men they may suffer punishment, they have a sure hope of immortality, and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to be His. He put them to the proof like gold in a crucible, and found them acceptable like an offering burnt whole on the altar. In the hour of their judgement they will shine in glory and will sweep over the world like sparks through stubble.

Isaiah 66:15-16
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Zechariah 13:9
I will lead that third into the fire, and refine them as silver is refined, test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I shall listen; and I shall say: These are my people; and each will say, “Yahweh is my God!”

Malachi 3:2-3
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Matthew 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. [Note He didn’t say, “until I pay the last farthing for you.” He JUSTIFIES us — without Him we can NEVER justify ourselves! Nothing we do can EVER get us into Heaven without His Blood. But we are expected to grow up, too. Our Father is wise.]

Matthew 12:32
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:58-59
When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite. [RSV: “As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.”]

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 Timothy 1:16-18
The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus [who just died]; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Hebrews 2:27-28
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Hebrews 12:22-23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, ... and to the spirits of just men made perfect

I Peter 3:16-19
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. [Comment: These dead could not have been in Hell; there’s no escaping Hell. They couldn’t have been in Heaven. So where were they?]

Revelation 21:10, 27
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God... And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

I hope that this helps you. We may respectfully disagree; I’d hope, though, that it would not be in ignorance, but in knowledge, and a strong desire to know more about Our Lord.


15 posted on 01/17/2011 6:34:34 AM PST by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
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To: sayuncledave

Thanks for the Voluminous reply.

Punctuation? really? We either see the Bible as ‘inerrant’ or not. I believe in its inerrancy. So, Let’s see if your thinking on punctualtion holds water.

Looking at how Jesus worded his speaking, as translated in the King James, a quick skimming for examples produces this list:

Matthew
5:26, 28, 32, 34, 44
6:5, 25, 29
8:10
10:42
11:11,22,24
12:6,31,36

ALL OF THESE examples are written/recorded as “Verily, I say to you,......” or “But, I say to you,.....”

They are recorded as what Jesus was saying, comma, then His message. The arguement that the comma is supposed to to be after the word ‘today’ is weak at best, and could be an item to be used to cast doubt on what else is in error in the Bible at worst.

In my understanding, the word ‘today’ is positioned correctly, with Jesus’ message being that TODAY, not after a purgatory visit, the thief would be with jesus in paradise.

Additionally, and importantly, it is theough jesus, and only Him that one comes to the Father. We need Purgatory to further ‘cleanse’ our souls? So, acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior, the He is the Son of God, accepting His Sacrifice on the cross and being washed in His soul cleansing blood is INSUFFICIENT to get me to heaven? Jesus is INSUFFICIENT? Somehow, I think not.

Writings of church elders that are noncanonical have no bearing on the Bible (commonly known as the Word of God) and are only unispired writings of men. The Bible is sufficient knowledge, all that God has deemed as required for us to know.

2 Samuel 13-16, What has this to do with purgatory? The child has not yet died, David is fasting for the childs healing, not for purgation. This scripture is not relevant as used/cited.

Maccabees and Wisdom are noncanonical books

Isaiah 66:15-16 Great scripture, but of what relevance? Even expanding beyond verses 15-16 looking for context, I see nothing there about purgation, nothing about souls awaiting cleansing.

Daniel 12:2, 10 and actually Daniel 12:1-15 (read for context) reads like the coming tribulations, and yes, many will be made white, those that accept Christ as Savior, that is the ONLY thing that can remove the stains of sin.

And more and more.

The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible, yet, the relationship of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is spelled out plainly and may be, therefore called with confidence the Trinity.

The words ‘abortion’, ‘lesbianism’, ‘homosexual’ are not, yet they are singularly described, in a way that renders them easily recognizable and obvious to even the most casual observer.

The word ‘Rapture’ is not used, yet the Rapture is rather spectaculary described, by the Lord Himself.

I take the Lord at His word, I trust Him, above all others, even Paul. I pray to Him and in His name, and no others, not even Mary.

You may try to render the Lords word ‘errant’ by quibbling over a comma. I’ll take His word as it is. When my time comes, I believe I will close my eyes here and open them to see His glorious face, as He is sufficient, completely, for my salvation.


16 posted on 01/17/2011 7:35:39 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: markomalley
It is important to observe that, in her mystical experience ...

I stopped reading right there ...
17 posted on 01/17/2011 7:37:23 AM PST by Scythian
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To: RoadGumby

Luke 23:42-43

42
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

So let’s look at the comma. There weren’t any in the Bible at the beginning and the verses weren’t even numbered. That came later for easier reading and so that we can now have “verse wars”.

43
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

See the difference in meaning? It doesn’t say that he is going to paradise today, it says you shall be with me in paradise.


18 posted on 01/17/2011 7:52:39 AM PST by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: sayuncledave

Oops, didn’t notice your post about punctuation.


19 posted on 01/17/2011 7:55:12 AM PST by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

Punctuation? really? We either see the Bible as ‘inerrant’ or not. I believe in its inerrancy. So, Let’s see if your thinking on punctualtion holds water.

Looking at how Jesus worded his speaking, as translated in the King James, a quick skimming for examples produces this list:

Matthew
5:26, 28, 32, 34, 44
6:5, 25, 29
8:10
10:42
11:11,22,24
12:6,31,36

ALL OF THESE examples are written/recorded as “Verily, I say to you,......” or “But, I say to you,.....”

They are recorded as what Jesus was saying, comma, then His message. The arguement that the comma is supposed to to be after the word ‘today’ is weak at best, and could be an item to be used to cast doubt on what else is in error in the Bible at worst.

In my understanding, the word ‘today’ is positioned correctly, with Jesus’ message being that TODAY, not after a purgatory visit, the thief would be with jesus in paradise.


20 posted on 01/17/2011 8:00:13 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: markomalley
A bit of a lengthy article, Mark, and I do not have the time to read it all through right now, but there's always the possibility that those that do not believe in purgatory will indeed never have to see it!

Rosary for Peace
21 posted on 01/17/2011 8:59:19 AM PST by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: markomalley; metmom
Hey, you can deny the Sacred Scriptures if you want

Nice try at deceptively implying I did that Mark. But certain tactics often used on these threads are well known ...the above is one of them. You can certainly twist Pauls words to mean anything you want. But I will stick with what Jesus Christ said and did....for...

What I did say was: either we are complete in Christ, as Christ says we are... or not at all. And to elaborate further.... ..... either we have the fullness of Christ...or not...... Either His words "It is finished" means what He said... or it means nothing at all.

There were and are no half way measures with Christ..nor will there ever be. He always means what He clearly says.

22 posted on 01/17/2011 4:48:59 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

Who said it’s a half-way measure? Who said it’s a second chance?

You did, not me.

You see, such tactics are well known on these threads (putting words in somebody’s mouth that were never spoken)

But, hey, you believe what you want to believe. When the blinders are removed in the end, you’ll see if you were right or not.


23 posted on 01/17/2011 4:53:50 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: caww

I guess maybe I should ask a more fundamental question. Do you even know what the doctrine of Purgatory is?


24 posted on 01/17/2011 4:55:45 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Scythian
in her mystical experience ...

I stopped reading right there ...

I almost did too, but then I am quite familiar with the New Age Mysticism Gurus and what they claim to know...and this type of experience she claims copies that. Most people who claim mystical experiences are deluded...and they all think it's from God. They all forget "the enemy of mens souls goes about like a roaring Lion seeking who He may devour." Take note that he has to 'find' those who are susceptable to his deceptions because many Christians do have an understanding of the tricks of his trade... "we are not ignorant of his devices". Anyone who places faith in people who make claims to mystical experieces is walking on the edge of the dark side...and cannot be trusted to have the ability to discern. If they had deiscernment they would not be walking on that edge...rather they would flee from it.

25 posted on 01/17/2011 5:03:19 PM PST by caww
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To: markomalley; caww; Houghton M.; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; ...

Paul’s the hero now? Not the goat?

What about when he says....?

Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Seems to me that the RC church pronounced anathemas on people who believe that. That’s part of what got Luther in so much trouble with it.


26 posted on 01/17/2011 5:19:53 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: markomalley

Jesus says:

“You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions....”

Further....What happens to all the people that are supposedly in this mythical place when Jesus comes and their purging is not complete?

And what of those who never entered purgatory to be purged when he comes back, how do they get accepted?

When Jesus, (our great High Priest), went to Heaven He sat down at the right hand of the Father.....Hebrews teaches us the Priest never sets down until the task ‘is complete.’

Jesus completed all that we could not do nor can we ever do.


27 posted on 01/17/2011 5:55:34 PM PST by caww
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To: Houghton M.; markomalley; Quix; metmom
I hope you dusted off your flame suit for the fires of FR purgatory-deniers!

Is that anything like a "man made climate change" deniar? I ask because I believe pergatory is every bit as real as man made climate change.

28 posted on 01/17/2011 6:00:49 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: metmom

Did they not once accuse us of placing Paul above Jesus? I guess they’re arguments shift with the direction of the wind!


29 posted on 01/17/2011 6:04:13 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: RoadGumby

The KJV of the Bible didn’t fall from the heavens already bound and printed for your perusal.

The original manuscripts had no paragraphs, verses, or commas.

You are basically saying that a translation with all its punctuation is straight from the mouth of Jesus.

There was no punctuation back then. A translator, maybe biased, maybe not, put in the punctuation for you.

Does this mean it’s not the Word of God? Of course not. But don’t be so sure that yours is the only correct translation. After all you are missing some books.


30 posted on 01/17/2011 6:08:28 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: caww; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; count-your-change; ...
Romans 4 Romans 4

1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be." 19He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead ( since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." 23But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

If God does not count our sin against us, we don't need to pay for them.

31 posted on 01/17/2011 6:09:28 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Grizzled Bear
Did they not once accuse us of placing Paul above Jesus?

No.

.

.

Not once. MANY times.

32 posted on 01/17/2011 6:11:34 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Absolutely. As a Catholic I believe this.


33 posted on 01/17/2011 6:11:37 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: metmom
Not once. MANY times.

That's what you get for insisting on praying only to Jesus. I'm waiting for them to really go off the deep end and begin sacrificing goats to Zeus.

34 posted on 01/17/2011 6:14:42 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: metmom; caww; sayuncledave; Houghton M.

Don’t waste your time. I’ve provided you with the Scriptures. Sayuncledave has provided a far more comprehensive list of the Scriptures.

If you don’t choose to believe the Word of God, that’s your business. But don’t count on me to stick around and argue with somebody who’s already convinced him/herself that he/she is right, regardless of what the Scriptures actually say.

Endless arguments are just not worth the bandwidth.

I know that both you two will want to have the last word, so go for it. But if you want to have an endless argument, I don’t plan to entertain your wishes. I’d rather spend my time doing something at least a little bit profitable.

God Bless!


35 posted on 01/17/2011 6:44:30 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: metmom

Thank you for the scripture on Abraham. Interesting that it was his faith not the law which counted him righteous.

I believe God ment it when He said that Christs’ work on our behalf...set us “Free” from the law and sin...and we walk by faith in Him. How can one know this freedom of walking with the Lord in our life if they are still trying to walk according to the law?

Therefore I do understand why Catholics have a need to follow Rome....on one hand they might understand Jesus has set them free...but are unable to recognize that freedom for abiding by all the requirements of their church which stands in the way of knowing anything but laws, rules, rituals etc. All which give them a false sense of security....but security non-the-less.

It’s like the Titanic captain, (pope), and all those who built it saying it could never sink. Well educated and highly experienced professionals assured any critics that this was simply not possible...and they had the stats to prove it, and followed all the rules established. The people then put all their trust in them AND the ship that was carrying them. And we know the end of that story.

The people wanted to believe this was so despite the critics...and many even denied the ship was sinking at the time that it was.


36 posted on 01/17/2011 6:51:11 PM PST by caww
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To: markomalley; caww; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; ...

I believe that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works so that no one can boast.

What I don’t believe is all the extraneous nonsense that has been added to Scripture and outside Scripture since then.

The opinions of those whom the RC church considers church *fathers* is irrelevant to the truth of God’s Word. Any doctrine built on them is built on shifting sand.

Appealing to the *traditions* that Paul passed on to the believers does not give anyone, then or now, license to fabricate tales of what may have happened that nobody can verify or disprove and demand that people accept them as truth.

If Catholics want to believe them, that’s their prerogative, but they have no business making unsubstantiated claims about the veracity of it and demanding he acceptance of it by others who have not placed themselves under the authority of Rome.

Catholics can follow their leaders into error if they want, but shouldn’t be criticizing others for not following them off that spiritual cliff.


37 posted on 01/17/2011 6:58:38 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

God asks us to love Him with all our heart, mind and soul. When we do so and desire Him above all else...do you honestly think that punctuation, commas, paragraphs etc. would stand in His way of revealing what He wants to say to us thru the scriptures? Is He not bigger than than these? Since He moved men to write it don’t you think He could equally move men to understand it as well?


38 posted on 01/17/2011 7:00:42 PM PST by caww
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To: caww; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; count-your-change; ...
All which give them a false sense of security....but security non-the-less.

Which is bizarre because there is no Catholic that I know of who is sure of where he's going when he dies. They expect to find out when they get there, and by then it will be too late to change their minds.

It is a control thing. The nice thing about works if the ability to tick off a laundry list of works to appeal to. But our works, the wages for what we do, is only death. They never lead to life. They can't.

Ever.

Luke 18 :9-18 9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

And who did Jesus say was righteous? The one with the works who believed in God, who did it his way, like Gain?

Or the one with the trust, who threw himself on the mercy of the court, so to speak and did it God's way, through faith, like Able?

39 posted on 01/17/2011 7:09:20 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: markomalley; metmom; caww

“If you don’t choose to believe the Word of God, that’s your business. But don’t count on me to stick around and argue with somebody who’s already convinced him/herself that he/she is right, regardless of what the Scriptures actually say.”

Actually, it IS the Word of God that is being believed when the falsehood of “purgatory’ is denied! The twisting of 1 Cor. 3:15 to fit the Roman Church’s “doctrine” does not truth make by any stretch.

If “purgatory” existed, there would be plain teaching about it from God’s Word, wouldn’t you think? No, no, no... not what you’re going to quote, but PLAIN TEACHING...maybe from Christ? We know about salvation, justification, sanctification — all clearly taught and exegetically provable. Not so with “purgatory.”

So if you wish to do something at least a little bit profitable, try reading the truth of God’s Word and see past the falsehood of the Roman Church.

God bless...

Hoss


40 posted on 01/17/2011 7:10:54 PM PST by HossB86
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To: metmom

Yes of course..and I agree...but you see their faith IS in the church fathers and those traditions, as well the VAtican which crowd out completely the freedom they could otherwise know.

The question is..would their faith be strong enough in Christ Himself, for those who are saved, when the Catholic Church and Vatican move even further toward the Universal One World church?

Will they be able to leave then? I do wonder......and what would it take to convince them? Perhaps that question might be one only each individual could answer....and one they need to prepare to answer.


41 posted on 01/17/2011 7:13:43 PM PST by caww
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To: caww; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; count-your-change; ...

The RC church claims that “the Church” is necessary to correctly interpret Scripture, but *the Church* is not an entity in and of itself. It is an organization composed of men and women, human, fallible ones at that.

So, somehow, this collection of men is supposed to somehow have some special ability to interpret Scripture that the rest of us don’t have? What makes them so special?

All believers have the Holy Spirit in them as individuals to guide them.

I see this mindset in the medical community s well. You aren’t supposed to question them. They’re the special educated class who knows more about medicine than you do, ignoring the fact that any one of their patients is likely just as capable of going to medical school and getting a degree in it just as they did, but chose not to.

Just because I don’t have degree in medicine does not mean I cannot understand it.

Likewise, just because I’m not some seminary educated theologian, does not mean that I cannot understand spiritual matters as I have the same Holy Spirit in me that they claim.

The Bible is not as complicated and hard to understand as the Catholic church leads its adherents to believe. By spreading that fallacy, that it’s too hard for the average lay person to understand and that they need someone to interpret it for them, it guarantees them a reason for being. It justifies their continued existence as they created the need and then offered themselves as the solution to fill it.


42 posted on 01/17/2011 7:24:05 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: HossB86

In I Corinthians 3 it is the believer’s works, not the believer himself, that will be tested by fire.

Paul is not speaking of literal fire any more than he is of literal wood and gold. He is speaking metaphorically, calling some works wood, hay, stubble....which fire burns combustible.... and others gold, silver and precious stones... which fire purifies.

Whatever is not built on the true foundation will be burnt. It says nothing of punishments but of the quality of ones works related to their rewards. There is nothing here or anywhere else in Scripture to support Catholicism’s view that flames in a spiritual zone purge the individual of the sins that were not cleansed while they were alive taking the sacraments...Eucharist...which by believing in pugatory cleansing then that null and voids the sacrement rite they attest to which makes them pure.

BTW..am so glad your posting..enjoying your reads.


43 posted on 01/17/2011 7:24:40 PM PST by caww
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To: HossB86
If “purgatory” existed, there would be plain teaching about it from God’s Word, wouldn’t you think? No, no, no... not what you’re going to quote, but PLAIN TEACHING...maybe from Christ? We know about salvation, justification, sanctification — all clearly taught and exegetically provable. Not so with “purgatory.”

It's interesting that Jesus NEVER referred to purgatory.

And for Catholics who claim to put the words of Jesus first, over and above the words of Paul, they sure are quick to appeal to Paul when they need to.

He's he hero when he's not the goat.

44 posted on 01/17/2011 7:27:58 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: All
Purgatory Exists. And It Burns
The Month of November: Thoughts on the "Last Things"
To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)
Radio Replies First Volume - Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
The Heroic Act [Catholic-Orthodox Caucus] (Offering everything for the Souls in Purgatory)
MONTLIGEON MIRACLE: HOW PRIEST TURNED INTO 'TRAVELING SALESMAN' OF PURGATORY

IN BRUSH WITH DEATH, PRIEST SHOWN HELL, PURGATORY, DEGREES OF SUFFERING
Praying for the Dead [All Souls Day] (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Purgatory: Service Shop for Heaven [Ecumernical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]
OF GUARDIAN ANGELS AND THE ROLE THEY PLAY NOT JUST ON EARTH BUT IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
IN ANNALS OF SAINTS IS CONVERT'S STRIKING DEDICATION TO THOSE SOULS IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus] What Happens After Death?
Purgatory
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

The Doctrine of Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory
Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

45 posted on 01/17/2011 7:34:20 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: caww
Will they be able to leave then? I do wonder......and what would it take to convince them? Perhaps that question might be one only each individual could answer....and one they need to prepare to answer.

I have my doubts. When I see the blind loyalty of Catholics to that church to the point of excusing away the pedophile priests and even accusing the victims of trying to make money off them, I just don't see it happening.

Any Catholic who can dismiss the Inquisition and the corruption and immorality of the papacy as just the kind of boys will be boys thing, and the homosexual, child molesting clergy, is too far gone.

Sin and evil within the clergy and church is not excusable. Even if they don't eliminate it completely, they need to at least be trying and that isn't happening.

I suppose that there's no real harm in someone thinking that they're in purgatory when they they die. Anyone in hell would want to cling to any hope that some day it will be over and there'll be an end to it.

46 posted on 01/17/2011 7:40:12 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
By spreading that fallacy, that it’s too hard for the average lay person to understand and that they need someone to interpret it for them, it guarantees them a reason for being. It justifies their continued existence as they created the need and then offered themselves as the solution to fill it.

Oh I absolutely believe this...the same with Mormons as it's the same pecking order and each level gets their share or reward...so it's intentional that they complicate what otherwise Jesus made clear and which the overall scriptures say.

You are so right about the medical community. I was looking at my chart while hospitalized...the Head nurse came up and said "Nosey aren't you?" "No", I responded, "I'm an active participant in my healthcare treatment". Course she had nothing to say. Later a nurse "team" was trying to get me to take some medicine I was not aware was needed. I refused and the presure was on to take it. Finally they got the Doctor....who to my great delight made the point of instructing them that I was well informed of my treatment and they were to explain what they were doing, purpose and such. They just didn't want to bother. And BTW...many times thru that ordeal I had to correct wrong information transcribed into my chart.

So this just proves your point in the matters of faith and the scriptures. We should always test what Pastors and teachers say...especially when it doesn't jive with the truth we know. But too many people in the Catholic faith simply accept everything that they are told to accept...and that's because their faith and trust is misplaced.

47 posted on 01/17/2011 7:41:23 PM PST by caww
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To: HossB86
**If “purgatory” existed, there would be plain teaching about it from God’s Word, wouldn’t you think?**

purgatory [The final purification, after death, of imperfectly purified souls, before they attain Heaven] [P24]

 

NOW YOU KNOW WHY LUTHER took out certain Catholic Books of the Bible:

 

But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. [2MACC 12:40-46] [Note: Since those in hell can't be helped by prayers and those in heaven don't need them, such souls must be in Purgatory.]

Remove the dross from silver, and it comes forth perfectly purified; Remove the wicked from the presence of the king, and his throne is made firm through righteousness. [PROV 25:4] [Note: This passage indicates the necessity of being pure before the Lord. Those who depart earth impurely are in need of purification in order to remain in the presence of the Lord.]

Depart, depart, come forth from there, touch nothing unclean! Out from there! Purify yourselves, you who carry the vessels of the LORD. [ISA 52:11] [Note: This passage indicates the necessity of being pure before the Lord. Those who depart earth impurely are in need of purification in order to remain in the presence of the Lord.]

Are you not from eternity, O LORD, my holy God, immortal?... Too pure are your eyes to look upon evil, and the sight of misery you cannot endure. [Taken from HAB 1:12-13] [Note: This passage indicates the necessity of being pure before the Lord. Those who depart earth impurely are in need of purification in order to remain in the presence of the Lord.]

"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." [MT 12:32] [Note: This passage implies that some sins may be forgiven in the age to come.]

"If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison. I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." [LK 12:58-59] [Note: Justice demands recompense.]

Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." [LK 23:39-43] [Note: Jesus, of course, would not enter into the purification of Purgatory since He lived sinlessly, however, this passage indicates an additional place for souls after death since Jesus would not rise until Easter morning and would not ascend to Heaven for several more weeks.] 

According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. [1COR 3:10-15]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. [2COR 5:10] [Note: Departed souls not deserving of hell, and also not yet worthy of heaven, would clearly require interim destination.]  

Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord. [HEB 12:14] [Note: Those who depart earth in a state of sin are in need of purification in order to remain in the presence of the Lord.]

For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. [1PT 3:18-20] [Note: The sinless Jesus, of course, would not have entered into the purification of Purgatory, however "spirits in prison" indicates an additional place for souls after death.] 

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. [1JN 5:16-17] [Note: Clearly, sin requires atonement. Saving atonement would not occur in heaven, and could not occur in hell, therefore those who depart the earth guilty of non-deadly sin require another place for atonement prior to entering heaven.]

I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God almighty and the Lamb. The city had no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gave it light, and its lamp was the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and to it the kings of the earth will bring their treasure. During the day its gates will never be shut, and there will be no night there. The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there, but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. [RV 21:22-27] [Note: Since nothing unclean can enter, it is necessary that those who die in a state of impurity (e.g. non deadly sin) be purified before entrance.]


48 posted on 01/17/2011 7:42:33 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: caww

I’m not saying at all that punctuation, etc., stands in the way of Christ. I’m saying that it sounds as if you have decided that it is important.

It’s not - For God so loved the world He sent a book.

John 3:16-21

16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

18
Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

19
And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.

20
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.

21
But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

Oh wait, there’s that darn works thing again. John 3:21


49 posted on 01/17/2011 7:45:36 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: Salvation

Hello Salvation....so what do you think of purgatory? Do you think you have to have another cleansing after you die before you can be with Christ?

I believe Jesus’ work was sufficient for everything and when we pass on we are immediately with Him.


50 posted on 01/17/2011 7:46:20 PM PST by caww
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