Or is this not a CHRISTian denomination?
+1
Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.
Posted on 01/17/2011 3:40:57 PM PST by Dallas59
AIX-EN-PROVENCE, France – A French nun says she felt new inner strength and vitality as her Parkinson's disease suddenly disappeared in 2005 — a recovery the Vatican attributes to the miraculous intercession of Pope John Paul II.
Sister Marie Simon-Pierre, who works at a Paris maternity clinic, told reporters in a rare appearance Monday that she felt "reborn" on waking June 3, 2005 after she had prayed for healing to John Paul.
"There was a new strength inside me, and my body was rediscovering its vitality and fluidity," Simon-Pierre, appearing in good health, told reporters in the southern French city of Aix-en-Provence.
The 49-year-old nun — who has largely been shielded from the media — said she still sometimes talks to John Paul.
"For this news conference, I told him to stay right beside me!" said Simon-Pierre, who appeared smiling and wearing a white habit at the news conference.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
Gee, just think what would have happened if she had prayed to Obama.
I have to ask why not just pray to the Father? This is what I as a christian don’t get and do not see it as biblical.
How do you pray to a dead human being who was as mortal as everyone else?
Or is this not a CHRISTian denomination?
I totally agree.
Is she a Christian or a Popian?
I do not have to go through a dead person to get to God. Why didn’t this person do the same since a dead person does not cure anything?
Your comment is one of the most ignorant ones I have seen in a long time.
Let me answer that for you: she is a Christian who believed in the Lord as her savior. She asked the Pope to pray for her as you would ask a friend to pray for you. She didn’t claim Pope JPII healed her. Instead it is the Lord healed her.
Your comment wins the ignorance award for the day & ought to be followed by a barf alert.
I’m glad she got better and I believe all credit goes to God. I have no clue whether JPII had anything to do with it, and neither do any of us, so we can leave it at that.
Personally, I credit JPII with being one of those used by God (including Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl) to bring down the Iron Curtain. For that alone, I think he is a saint. No need to speculate on magic and miracles.
I assume it is the same reason they pray to Mary, aren’t they both dead? It seems like a waste of time to me, I mean I am sure they were both very good people, but, they were both people.
Does this fall under you shall have no other Gods before me?
Nuns praying to the dead pope now? Good grief.
I don’t pray to dead people.
That is blasphemous.
The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Beato Subito: JPII Beatification Gets Green-Light
Miracle approved for beatification of John Paul II
Former President Bush's memoir will highlight influence of Pope John Paul II
Gingrich Screens Film on Pope John Paul II
John Paul II and Mary (catholic Caucus
Pope John Paul II and Pope Pius XII move closer to sainthood
SPECIAL: Popes Pius XII, John Paul II declared 'venerable'
Pope John Paul II Step Closer to Possible Beatification
Popes Move Closer to Sainthood [Jews Says Beatification of Pius XII "Thoughtless"]
Benedict XVI to declare John Paul II venerable at the Vatican (12/19)
You wrote:
“I don’t pray to dead people. That is blasphemous.”
People alive in Christ aren’t dead. Get a clue.
I pray to the father through Jesus. Which is the ONLY way in my faith.
You are thinking as humans think — that once a person dies and the body dies — the soul dies too.
Not so, at the moment of our death our soul is brought before God for a particular judgment.
The soul lives on — just as Christ resurrected body lived on.
Or do you not believe in the resurrection of the dead?
Or is this not a CHRISTian denomination?
+1
You might want to read an extraordinary scientific book “Evidence of the After-Life” by Dr. Jeffrey Long about near death experiences.
It’s a fascinating subject and verifies that one’s soul lives on, even though the body may be dead on the operating table.
You're going to waste your time quoting the Church Fathers to these people?
Don't you know that Christianity came to them fully formed in a pole barn church down by the interstate off-ramp in 1977?
If you need a book besides the bible, it ain’t Christian. There are a lot of great Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are the meekest people I have ever met but that doesn’t make them Christian.
Here we go with that tired saw: I pray to a man, but it is not to a man, but a man who isn’t a man because he is a man, so that means we don’t pray to people becuase we are praying to men.
Let it go Vlad, you guys pray to men and that is blasphemous. GeronL is right on the money. Read the nun’s claim.
Is that Bhuddism, Shintoism or that other Asian thing where they pray to their ancestors?
Why would anyone pray to a man for healing? Didn’t Jesus pay the price for us to begin with...?
I don’t believe that this stops, I believe because it is biblical that departed saints pray for us, but I do not pray to my friends or departed loved ones. I pray to My Father who is in heaven, as My LORD Jesus taught me. I do not go through a friend to get my God. I cry out to God when I am in need of healing. I pray for people they pray for me, but I have NEVER prayed asking my friend for healing, no I ask God.
Variations of ancestoral prayer exist in all of those, including Hinduism. Little separates the Catholic view of veneration of “Saints” from this pagan idolatry.
oh they’re making him a saint, they got to have “witnesses to miracles”
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD…
Talking to the physically deceased is a pagan practice, and never modeled or taught in the NT by Christ or the apostles.. it is a doctrine of men..
I seem to recall someone asking Jesus saying something about letting the dead bury the dead. Follow Him.
What do you think "praying to saints" means? It means exactly that: asking a fellow "saint" to pray to God! God does the healing. Surely you know that.
bump
I’m sorry, but your belief is so wrong. Dead people are dead, your friends are still alive. The Bible says that those in heaven are happy, there is no sadness, or crying. Why? Because, they aren’t privy to what’s going on here on earth. If they were, there would be much sadness and tears shed.
I realize that Catholics use this asking a friend to pray for you to show their ignorance of the Bible. It says there is one mediator between God and man - notice ONE, not many. The Scripture about a great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews is also misconstrued and taken out of context. No where in the Bible do we read where the early Christians or apostles prayed to anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
You wrote:
“I pray to the father through Jesus.”
So do I.
“Which is the ONLY way in my faith.”
Your faith is unorthodox. Mine is orthodox. We ask the saints to pray for us.
You wrote:
“Here we go with that tired saw: I pray to a man, but it is not to a man, but a man who isn’t a man because he is a man, so that means we don’t pray to people becuase we are praying to men.”
I ask the saints to intercede for me. It’s just that simple.
“Let it go Vlad, you guys pray to men and that is blasphemous.”
I ask the saints to intercede for me and it is not blasphemous.
“GeronL is right on the money. Read the nun’s claim.”
GeronL is not right and not orthodox. Neither are you.
You wrote:
“Deuteronomy 18:10-12...”
No saints at that time.
“Talking to the physically deceased is a pagan practice, and never modeled or taught in the NT by Christ or the apostles.. it is a doctrine of men..”
The communion of saints is a gift from God.
Did you evene read that link? It has quotes from the Bible too.
The unquestionable evidence of numerous miracles within the Catholic Church is always really just an article of envy for those stuck in Churches without them. The only psychological defense mechanism they have is to deny they exist because to acknowledge them would have catastrophic implications for their belief systems.
We pray to Pope John 23rd for a miracle through Jesus Christ, always.
He's dead Jim.
Christians don't "pray" to dead people.
“What do you think “praying to saints” means? It means exactly that: asking a fellow “saint” to pray to God! God does the healing. Surely you know that. “
1. No verse in the Bible encourages asking departed saints to pray for us.
2. No evidence exists [that I’ve seen] that this was an Apostolic practice during lives of the original Apostles.
3. No evidence exists that departed saints can hear you when you give them a shout.
As such, I can only conclude this is an accretion, added hundreds of years later, but was never part of the Church.
best,
ampu
Who do you think my post was poking fun at? Read it again.
I thought you were talking about the link. You, if you are a scientist, would enjoy this book. Dr. Long talks about how the American Medical Association did not have much evidence about the afterlife and near death experiences. He did an exhaustive study and has a superb website with testimonies of people who actually died, floated above their bodies watching the medical personnel try to bring them back to life, go through a tunnel, see a bright, bright light, meet relatives who had passed away and told them to go back to their bodies because they still had work to do on earth.
Dr. Jeffrey Long became a believer in these NDEs after his through reseatch. Surely you have read about some of them.
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other's prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.
Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.
Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.
2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.
2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.
1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.
2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”
Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.
James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.
1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.
1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.
3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
Old Testament
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.
Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
And as for evidence: ... whew, lots! But more later, I'm outta here to eat some pork. Blessings and BBQ, friend.
Contemplate the tagline. Nobody ever said we stoip being part of the Body when we are... ahem... departed saints. That means we haave a living connection to each other! Always! Love ya!
Good point.
I meant Pope John Paul II
Er....perhaps not. ;O)
I never turn down prayer from someone on earth!
As for evidence - you’ll not find it in the Bible:
1. No verse that commands we pray to departed saints
2. No verse that encourages us to pray to departed saints
3. No verse that demonstrates Christians praying to departed saints.
If you have ANY 1st century references to praying to departed saints, please share them after your pork eating. :-)
Beyond those two sources, you might as well pray to a tree and tell us God made creation to echo our prayers. It is an argument from silence. I don’t find those persuasive - any more than the apparitions of Mary appearing on toast.
In the meantime, we are commanded to pray to the Father and commanded to pray in the Son’s name. We are told HE is our ONE mediator.
Nowhere are we told that any particular saint has more “leverage” with God than any other saint.
best,
ampu
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