Posted on 01/17/2011 3:40:57 PM PST by Dallas59
AIX-EN-PROVENCE, France – A French nun says she felt new inner strength and vitality as her Parkinson's disease suddenly disappeared in 2005 — a recovery the Vatican attributes to the miraculous intercession of Pope John Paul II.
Sister Marie Simon-Pierre, who works at a Paris maternity clinic, told reporters in a rare appearance Monday that she felt "reborn" on waking June 3, 2005 after she had prayed for healing to John Paul.
"There was a new strength inside me, and my body was rediscovering its vitality and fluidity," Simon-Pierre, appearing in good health, told reporters in the southern French city of Aix-en-Provence.
The 49-year-old nun — who has largely been shielded from the media — said she still sometimes talks to John Paul.
"For this news conference, I told him to stay right beside me!" said Simon-Pierre, who appeared smiling and wearing a white habit at the news conference.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
If your definition of "orthodox" is being transfixed by the bizarre, demonic doctrines of Rome, I am grateful to the God of Israel that He has spared me from being sucked into that swirling vortex of error.
I prefer to be biblical and will leave the praying to humans to those, as Peter wrote, are, "...springs without water, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this is he enslaved."
Of course, that is what is behind this. Got to have some poor woman claim he healed her athlete's foot or he wouldn't get the last 10 points.
good point. If you cant do it while alive, you sure as heck cant do it when youre dead.
You wrote:
“From your scripture, how does the Pope differ from you or me in “forgiving sin” if that is the interpretation?”
He differs in that he received the gift and neither you nor I have.
As if this false bishop of Rome had a more direct line to God than the nun herself.
As if God would not have healed this woman but for the "intercession" of this false bishop of Rome.
Papists prefer hallucinations to the assurance provided by God's holy word.
"Superstition is always cruel." -- John Calvin
The paucity of verifiable miracles within Calvinism and the abundance of them within Catholicism should be a major red flag to you that you are on the wrong path.
If you think that Satan cannot perform *wondrous* works or perform apparent miracles to deceive people, you are in dangerous territory, in great danger of being deceived and led astray.
That’s why it’s critical to compare any claim of supernatural events, to the rock solid authority of Scripture to see if it fits and is from God or not. Since we are commanded to pray only to God and divination and necromancy are forbidden this nun opened herself up to deception by Satan by praying to JPII, who is incapable of answering ANY prayer.
Whatever this nun prayed to was NOT JPII.
But if Satan can get mileage out of it by enticing others to pray to someone besides God, then I wouldn’t be surprised that he wouldn’t mind if someone were healed here on this earth, if it ultimately guaranteed them a spot in hell for eternity.
Read The Screwtape Letters sometime.
Pharoah’s magicians imitated some of the miracles that Moses performed, and THEY certainly weren’t from God.
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Mark 13:21-23 And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.
Revelation 13:7-18 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
Oh really???? And you base this upon the Pope and Cardinals telling you this is what it means-that they have the ability to forgive sin and you don't????
I'd suggest looking at alternative interpretations.
Somehow they think they're immune to such deception....that because they adhere to the catholic church and vatican they are not a target. Again, satan goes about ...."seeking" whom he may devour. He can spot his targets and if they're dabbling with mystical things they ARE definately so.
I didn't say "wondrous works", I said miracles.
CCC - 156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe "because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived". So "that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit." Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church's growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability "are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all"; they are "motives of credibility" (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is "by no means a blind impulse of the mind".
CCC - 2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.
The Greek word for *mighty works* works is also translated *miracles*. *Wonder* is
Mark 13:22 wonder - http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5059.htm
Matthew 7:22 mighty works - http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1411.htm
Now, exactly what would be a *wonder* or *mighty work* if not a miracle? Mere good works are not *wonders* and wouldn’t impress anyone to the point of deceiving them.
I've had this type of dialogue many times with FReeper Christian friends, and I think I know what the difficulty is. I'll ask you some questions, and then I’ll answer yours (which were good ones!). This may help clarify things. We may not end up agreeing, but we’ll have a more accurate idea of what the other actually believes.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
You’ll not find it the Bible:
1. Any verse that teaches that departed saints are dead spiritually.
2. Any verse that says we can't ask for the intercession of living saints, whether they are departed or still walking this earth.
3. Any verse that implies that "departed" saints have stopped living, stopped loving, or stopped relating to Christ their Head, or us, the other members of the Body..
You write: "If you have ANY 1st century references to praying to departed saints, please share them ..."
Thank you for giving me this opportunity. The catacombs of Rome, where Christians are buried, contain numerous grave inscriptions showing the continuing relationship between those still on earth, and those who passed on. To quote just one book, (and you can read it here, http://www.archive.org/details/epitaphscatacom00nortgoog if you click on the link and then click on “View the Book”) "Epitaphs of the Catacombs" by J. Spencer Northcote, 1878 (p. 91-93):
(Speaking of the burial epitaphs) “They pray for the dead as if they were still living, and capable of feeling joy and sorrow; or they call upon them for assistance, as if they were still able to give it.” http://www.archive.org/stream/epitaphscatacom00nortgoog#page/n90/mode/1up
Messages carved on the catacombs are addressed both to and for the Christian whose body is buried there: Northcote says the “simple, earnest prayers for the departed” were found in the first 3 centuries .
“They breathed a humble, loving prayer that he soon might be admitted to a participation in these blessings. They asked for the departed soul, peace, and light, and refreshment, and rest in God and in Christ. Sometimes they also invoked the help of his prayers (since they knew that he still lived in God) for the surviving relatives whose time of trial was not yet ended. In a word, the realized intensely that all the faithful, whether in the body or out of the body, were still living members of one mystical body, the Body of Christ; that they formed one great family, knit together in the closest bonds of love; and that this love, ‘stronger than death,’ had its proper work and happiness in prayer--- prayer of the survivors for those who had gone before, pray for the blessed for those who were left behind.”
Back in the ‘80’s, I toured (in too much of a rush) Roman catacombs. I saw “Ora pro nobis” or “Orate pro nobis” (“Pray for us” in sing. and pl. forms) and pictures representing the deceased in the “Orantes” posture (the blessed praying in heaven for their loved ones here below) on the walls dating from the earliest centuries AD, the Age of Martyrs.
Tell you what. I could find you dozens of examples of early Christians praying to and for and with saints and angels in heaven, and I’ll be you can’t find ONE example of anybody objecting to this kind of prayer, or calling it improper or heretical, for, say, the first 1000 years of Christianity.
We are members of One Body!
Gosh, this turned into a long one. Thanks for reading this far. G’night!
BTW, the NT shows Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah on Mt. Tabor when He was transfigured. It certainly shows you can communicate with those who have gone to heaven. That connection is never lost, because those in heaven are still living with the Lord. We are not like atheists who think of them as "dead".
“after she had prayed for healing to John Paul.”
Key word “TO”.
Mrs. O,
Your explanation fails to answer my basic point - that
we are not encouraged, commanded, or shown an example
that we are to pray to saints that are in heaven. Not
a single one in scripture.
I notice you didn’t find any either.
You made these points, which I find irrelevant...
“1. Any verse that teaches that departed saints are dead spiritually.”
We agree departed saints are alive and in heaven, so that
isn’t an issue between us. We agree they are present with
the Lord.
“2. Any verse that says we can’t ask for the intercession of living saints, whether they are departed or still walking this earth.”
No verses say we can’t pray to our shoes, either. No verse
says we should substitute God’s commands and Christ’s teaching
with our own preferences. Arguments from silence are not
persuasive, or authoritative. Substituting our preferences
for Christ’s commands and the Bible’s teaching fails to
be Biblical too.
“3. Any verse that implies that “departed” saints have stopped living, stopped loving, or stopped relating to Christ their Head, or us, the other members of the Body..”
Irrelevant to the issue at hand... though your last phrase
is conjecture.
I personally don’t believe teachings that are important
to the Church are left out of the Bible. The absence of something
that is such a central practice in later Churches of the
Romanish and Orthodox persuasion stands without foundation
in early history and without Biblical support.
Which is why I asked for historical examples.
On to the depths of the catacombs...
I am looking for some historical reference during the lives
of the first Apostles that would give confidence that
praying to the departed was a part of Apostolic practice.
I find none in that time frame.
I see no dates on your grave markings that would place them
in the first 90 years AD. Do you have any specific early
references?
“I’ll be you can’t find ONE example of anybody objecting to this kind of prayer, or calling it improper or heretical”
I can’t find one example of Apostolic teaching of this during
the first 90 years, so it would be hard to object. Again,
this seems to me to be an argument from silence.
You seem studied about this topic. What else do you have
that would fall within the first 90 years that indicates
Apostolic teaching?
All the best,
ampu
You wrote:
“Oh really????”
Yes, really.
” And you base this upon the Pope and Cardinals telling you this is what it means-that they have the ability to forgive sin and you don’t????”
No. I simply base this on the truth. Read it in John 20.
“I’d suggest looking at alternative interpretations.”
I’d suggest you simply get your interpretation right the first time. I did.
Isaiah 8:19&20 - And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? TO THE TEACHING AND TO THE TESTIMONY! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
I wrote you a good long, 794 word-count response, and then realized, "Hey, this is useless because Ampu doesn't think there's anything authoritative after 90 AD!"
So before I proceed, let me ask you this: could you provide me with a list the canonical books of the NT-- a list published before 90 AD?
If not, what's the earliest canonical list you can find?
I'm interested in the year and the provenance.
Thanks. I await with interest.
MD,
ALL books in the Canon were written by 95AD.
I am asking you whether you have equally early historical citations for any Christian practice of praying TO departed Christians? Very straightforward question.
Best ampu
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