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Vatican says its Irish abuse letter misunderstood
AP ^ | January 18, 2011 | SHAWN POGATCHNIK

Posted on 01/18/2011 9:23:23 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg

DUBLIN -- A 1997 letter from the Vatican warned Ireland's Catholic bishops not to report all suspected child-abuse cases to police - a disclosure that victims' groups described as "the smoking gun" needed to show that the church enforced a worldwide culture of covering up crimes by pedophile priests.

The newly revealed letter, obtained by Irish broadcasters RTE and provided to The Associated Press, documents the Vatican's rejection of a 1996 Irish church initiative to begin helping police identify pedophile priests following Ireland's first wave of publicly disclosed lawsuits...

(Excerpt) Read more at miamiherald.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; alteredtitle; apspin; correcttitle; diplomacy; ireland; lightoftruth; pederastpriests; romancatholicism; vatican; whiningrcappologists
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1 posted on 01/18/2011 9:23:26 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: TSgt; RnMomof7; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; the_conscience; Dutchboy88; ...
Child-abuse activists in Ireland said the 1997 letter demonstrates that the protection of pedophile priests from criminal investigation was not only sanctioned by Vatican leaders but ordered by them.

"The letter is of huge international significance, because it shows that the Vatican's intention is to prevent reporting of abuse to criminal authorities...

2 posted on 01/18/2011 9:27:18 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Wow. Just....wow.


3 posted on 01/18/2011 9:27:57 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will believe in abject nonsense.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Simply despicable.


4 posted on 01/18/2011 9:29:42 PM PST by Wallop the Cat
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Yep. One more “smoking gun” to add to the pile of smoking guns.


5 posted on 01/18/2011 9:31:14 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
VATICAN WARNED IRISH BISHOPS NOT TO REPORT ABUSE

Considering the source, would you expect anything less.

6 posted on 01/18/2011 9:36:10 PM PST by doc1019 (Martyrdom is a great thing, until it is your turn.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

A better method would have been immediate public denunciation and shaming. The church and its seminaries were infected in the 60’s and 70’s by liberal freaks of all kinds, and what it really needed was a good purging.


7 posted on 01/18/2011 9:38:53 PM PST by PGR88
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

The Catholic church was quick enough to ex-communicate Luther.

Catholics are quick enough to tell me that I ex-communicated myself.

And they not only do not ex-communicate these priests who commit these vile sins, but go out of their way to protect them?

And they claim that Jesus gave these men the power through apostolic succession to send others to hell through binding their sins to them?

They claim to represent Christ on earth? Would Christ behave like that?

Christ’s opinion of those who would hurt children.....

Matthew 18:6
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:42
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

Luke 17:2
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

It’s inconceivable to think that any of these men posing as priests made it in to heaven. If their priesthood is a farce, then the people who received sacraments from them have been deceived.


8 posted on 01/18/2011 9:40:07 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Wow. Just....wow.


9 posted on 01/18/2011 9:41:56 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will believe in abject nonsense.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
DUBLIN -- A 1997 letter from the Vatican warned Ireland's Catholic bishops not to report all suspected child-abuse cases to police - a disclosure that victims' groups described as "the smoking gun" needed to show that the church enforced a worldwide culture of covering up crimes by pedophile priests.

The newly revealed letter, obtained by Irish broadcasters RTE and provided to The Associated Press, documents the Vatican's rejection of a 1996 Irish church initiative to begin helping police identify pedophile priests following Ireland's first wave of publicly disclosed lawsuits....

These excerpts from earlier threads bear repeating:

In 1922, the Vatican promulgated an instruction to do with what it called crimen solicitationis (the crime of solicitation within the confessional) and what it called the ‘‘worst crime’’ - the sexual abuse of children. The document was issued in Latin. No authoritative version was produced in English. The document was circulated only to bishops and under terms of strict secrecy....

....The 1922 and 1962 Vatican instructions on dealing with allegations of clerical child sex abuse demanded absolute secrecy in the conduct of investigations. The secrecy was so pervasive that, to some, it seemed to demand that the complaint also be kept secret from the state authorities. Cannon 1341 states that the bishop is to ‘‘start a judicial administrative procedure, for the imposition or the declaration of penalties, only when he perceives that neither by fraternal correction nor reproof, nor by any methods of pastoral care, can the scandal be sufficiently repaired, justice restored, and the offender reformed’’.
-- from the thread Vatican guilty of unholy compassion for paedophiles

The report by the independent Commission of Investigation, headed by Judge Yvonne Murphy, looked specifically at the handling of some 325 abuse claims in the Archdiocese of Dublin during the period from January 1975 to May 2004.

"The Dublin Archdiocese's preoccupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid-1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the church and the preservation of its assets," said the report. "All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the state"....
-- from the thread Pope calls Irish church leaders to Vatican to discuss abuse report


10 posted on 01/18/2011 9:43:06 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

While it feel tender towards my brothers and sisters in Christ, I must say to a FR Catholic who told me I must eventually return to “The one true church”...I must say it will be a cold day in Hell.


11 posted on 01/18/2011 9:44:25 PM PST by Winstons Julia (when liberals rant, it's called free speech; when conservatives rant, it is hate speech.)
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To: Winstons Julia

I second that emotion. 8~)


12 posted on 01/18/2011 9:46:46 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: metmom
Catholics are quick enough to tell me that I ex-communicated myself.

How on earth can you excommunicate yourself?

13 posted on 01/18/2011 9:47:29 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will believe in abject nonsense.)
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To: metmom

Apparently Rome finds it difficult to excommunicate “another Christ.”

Blasphemy in; blasphemy out.


14 posted on 01/18/2011 9:48:33 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alex Murphy
".The 1922 and 1962 Vatican instructions on dealing with allegations of clerical child sex abuse demanded absolute secrecy in the conduct of investigations. The secrecy was so pervasive that, to some, it seemed to demand that the complaint also be kept secret from the state authorities."

According to Crimen Solicitationis, the victim and his family all face excommunication if they even speak about the sexual abuse to anyone other than a church official.

And they wonder why it takes years to prosecute these crimes.

15 posted on 01/18/2011 9:51:58 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

What he said....Oh my, this is so sad.


16 posted on 01/18/2011 9:57:05 PM PST by JouleZ (You are the company you keep.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Yeah, but what about school teachers and other professionals?

(Just so you won’t have to wait for it)


17 posted on 01/18/2011 9:58:31 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

ROTFLOL

(Many thanks. I hate suspense almost as much as I hate irony.)


18 posted on 01/18/2011 10:01:13 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: Barnacle

Do you see this story as “attacking the Catholic church?”


20 posted on 01/18/2011 10:06:47 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
In case anyone actually cares for the truth, this is from the New York Times' article:
Jeffrey S. Lena, a lawyer for the Vatican, said in a statement that the letter “has been deeply misunderstood.” He said that its primary purpose was to ensure that bishops used proper canonical procedures to discipline their priests so that the punishments were not overturned on technical grounds. He said the letter was also intended to question the validity of the Irish bishops’ policies, because they were issued merely as a “study document.”

Mr. Lena added, “In stark contrast to news reports, the letter nowhere instructed Irish bishops to disregard civil law reporting requirements.”

21 posted on 01/18/2011 10:10:28 PM PST by dangus ("The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" -- St. John Crysostom ("the Golden-Mouthed"))
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: dangus

First of all, it’s pretty interesting that when others use the NYT as reference, it’s totally dismissed.

And second, “the letter ‘has been deeply misunderstood’” is the mantra of Rome...

Crimen Solicitationis “has been deeply misunderstood.”

Ratzinger’s letter to the bishops “has been deeply misunderstood.”

John Paul II’s calling Mary a “co-Redemptrix” “has been deeply misunderstood.”

Ratzinger’s “Global Authority” encyclical “has been deeply misunderstood.”

Everything about Rome “has been deeply misunderstood.”

Except it hasn’t. People have brains and people can read and people are able to understand what motivates men who choose to live without women and families and who believe themselves to be “another Christ” to act on their base desires while ignoring the pain and destruction they inflict on others.

It’s called “evil.”


23 posted on 01/18/2011 10:26:42 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: dangus

a lawyer for the Vatican.

‘nough said.


24 posted on 01/18/2011 10:30:01 PM PST by bonfire
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To: bonfire

lolol

Double-damned. 8~)


25 posted on 01/18/2011 10:33:12 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: metmom

“cast the first stone”


26 posted on 01/18/2011 10:52:18 PM PST by cherry
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To: dangus

Er, no.

Just because a lawyer for the Vatican says that the letter “has been deeply misunderstood” doesn’t mean a thing other than that a not entirely disinterested party is trying his best to downplay the significance of it.

in the same vein, global warming is really true, Islam really is a religion of peace, and that clumsy oaf Santa Claus knocked my turbine off with his sleigh a few weeks ago.


27 posted on 01/18/2011 10:53:10 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will believe in abject nonsense.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Vatican warned Ireland’s Catholic bishops not to report all suspected child-abuse cases to police -

As Cokie Roberts said of Roman Polanski, “Just Take Him Out and Shoot Him.”


28 posted on 01/18/2011 11:07:47 PM PST by flowerplough (Thomas Sowell: Those who look only at Obama's deeds tend to become Obama's critics.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; Wallop the Cat; doc1019; PGR88; metmom; Alex Murphy; ...
I presume you are all patriots, fair-minded Constitutionalists, lovers of the truth, despisers of the tactics of the Left.

Does it surprise you to know that you are engaging in the dishonest argument of say, William Ayers, or Media Matters, or the Huffington Post?

I need to go to bed, but I have attached an analysis of this matter by an excellent scholar James Akin. If you read it with the same detachment you give to, say, Thomas Sowell, you will see that you are mistaken in thinking that the institutional Catholic Church was (is) engaged in cover-up. Will you take the time to investigate, or will you engage in the tactics of those who are destroying our country?

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/vatican-warned-bishops-not-to-report-child-abuse?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NCRegisterDailyBlog+%2540The+Daily+Register%2541
29 posted on 01/19/2011 12:32:26 AM PST by jobim
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To: jobim

Were you the one that told me I’d have to join ‘the one true church”?

It’s increasingly apparent that priests were diddling kids.

And in Illinois, when they weren’t diddling the nuns or kids...they were drinking it up something fierce.

As I said, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ...but you Catholics take it too far sometimes.


30 posted on 01/19/2011 12:43:34 AM PST by Winstons Julia (when liberals rant, it's called free speech; when conservatives rant, it is hate speech.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Words fail me...


31 posted on 01/19/2011 3:13:08 AM PST by TSgt (Colonel Allen West & Michele Bachman - 2012 POTUS Dream Team Ticket!)
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To: jobim

Nice try, but no - this isn’t some big, worldwide conspiracy to smear the sterling reputation of Catholicism. In fact, priestly sexual abuse of children (and the wives of parishioners, in times past) has been an ongoing theme in the history of Rome for quite a long time.

Trying to hide this behind Ayers and HuffPo is disingenuous at best, and disgustingly mercenary at worst.


32 posted on 01/19/2011 4:45:21 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will believe in abject nonsense.)
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To: wmfights; daniel1212; John Leland 1789

Early morning wake up ping!


33 posted on 01/19/2011 4:46:51 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will believe in abject nonsense.)
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To: bonfire

That’s right. We should all just listen to the Associated Press about everything on religion. And make sure you get the articles that only present one side.

/sarcasm


34 posted on 01/19/2011 5:13:54 AM PST by dangus ("The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" -- St. John Crysostom ("the Golden-Mouthed"))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Wow! You’ve just discovered that the mainstream bias can purposely “misunderstand” Christians? Have you told Sarah Palin?

And, yes, the New York Times is a terrible source, but at least they asked for a response. When you’re more irresponsible and slanderous than the New York Times, that should tell you something.


35 posted on 01/19/2011 5:16:26 AM PST by dangus ("The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" -- St. John Crysostom ("the Golden-Mouthed"))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

And you all could read the letter yourselves, if you had any interest in the truth.

The letter never tells the Irish bishops not to report the abuse, nor to fail to comply with civil law. It reminds the Irish bishops that by mandating reporting all suggestions of abuse to civil authorities, they could put the Catholic Church in the difficult position of having to reinstate a priest after reporting him to the authorities.

The Congregation for Divine Worship is acting here in the role of the District Attorney, which has to tell the cops sometimes that they have to make a clean bust if they want it to stick. Because guess what: Men who have sacrificed their lives for the priesthood are entitled to some legal protection, too.

Nothing in the letter instructs the bishops not to obey civil law. But the bishops’ proposal, which you could also have read for yourself if you had any interest in the truth, goes far beyond the requirements of civil law.

You know who merely advises congregation to report when civil law requires them to? The Southern Baptist Convention. And the Presbyterian Church, USA. Yeah, I know, PCUSA are the liberals. But then the PCA doesn’t have ANY guidelines.


36 posted on 01/19/2011 5:27:44 AM PST by dangus ("The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" -- St. John Crysostom ("the Golden-Mouthed"))
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

When they dogpile the thread, you’ll have to ask them, if you can get a straight answer out of them on it.

That’s the excuse they use when asked why the RC church didn’t ex-communicate Hitler, that he ex-communicated himself so the church didn’t need to take any action.


37 posted on 01/19/2011 5:45:48 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Winstons Julia; Dr. Eckleburg

Third it.

No way I’d lend any support to an organization that behaves like this. That would make me complicit by showing my approval and agreement and support of those actions.


38 posted on 01/19/2011 5:47:59 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: dangus; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Jeffrey S. Lena, a lawyer for the Vatican, said in a statement that the letter “has been deeply misunderstood.”

Typical knee jerk Catholic reaction.

In EVERY area that makes the Catholic church look rightfully bad, the poor, persecuted, misunderstood church is well, misunderstood.

You see, what the Catholic church says and what it means are ALWAYS two different things.

They need to hire some people who are more literate and can SAY what they MEAN instead of saying what they say and telling everyone else who reads the plain meaning of what is said that they are wrong.

39 posted on 01/19/2011 5:52:15 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: dangus

If you can’t attack the facts, attack the source.


40 posted on 01/19/2011 5:55:00 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: dangus

Where is the actual text? I wasn’t able to read it in the linked page.


41 posted on 01/19/2011 6:02:19 AM PST by DarkSavant
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To: dangus

It has become plainly obvious that the enemies of the Church have no interest in the truth. Their own comments condemn them.


42 posted on 01/19/2011 6:02:19 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: metmom
That’s the excuse they use when asked why the RC church didn’t ex-communicate Hitler, that he ex-communicated himself so the church didn’t need to take any action.

Hmmm...that would seem to be giving the individual laymember quite a bit more authoritative latitude than the RCC typically grants, eh?

43 posted on 01/19/2011 6:17:14 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will believe in abject nonsense.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

A lot of reporting about what the letter allegedly says but no transcript. The Miami Herald page gives an image of the letter but it is so small that you cannot read it. I am sorry but I just do not trust the media on this story, especially since the report alludes to confessions which opens up a whole other can of worms. Justice and Christian charity would withhold comment until the entire contents of the letter are printed. Of course those who already have an animus against the Catholic Church will naturally will jump to the worst conclusion without any idea of what the letter actually says. Disgusting.


44 posted on 01/19/2011 6:17:14 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

I’m thinking it was intentional. I’ll wait until I read the actual paper before I make a judgement though.


45 posted on 01/19/2011 6:18:51 AM PST by DarkSavant
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To: jobim

Thanks for posting that. I read it carefully and found it instructive, logical, fair, easy to understand, and kind. A hotlink would be helpful because not many people are going to take the trouble to highlight, copy, and paste.

Frankly this is just another case in which the New York Times distorts matters. You can’t persuade me that a liberal New York reporter is going to be fair, and indeed she is not in her interpretation of anything people of faith might do. As the author at the link says, Why didn’t she do ten seconds worth of googling to find the truth? Clearly, she doesn’t want it.


46 posted on 01/19/2011 6:26:24 AM PST by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

When the prss uses Vatican instead of citing the office it came from I know they found some obscure memo from some non authoratative personnel.


47 posted on 01/19/2011 6:31:20 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“The letter nowhere instructed Irish bishops to disregard civil law reporting requirements,” he said in a statement early Wednesday”

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/18/2021112_p2/vatican-warned-irish-bishops-not.html##ixzz1BUYCj4Yp

I see I’ll amend my previous post. So once again there is confusion between what a priest had to do under canon law and what they must do under civil and/or criminal law.

The fact the press does not understand this does not surprise me at all.


48 posted on 01/19/2011 6:35:52 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: metmom

“They need to hire some people who are more literate and can SAY what they MEAN instead of saying what they say and telling everyone else who reads the plain meaning of what is said that they are wrong”

Hopefully there are more literate than functionally illiterate on this boards.

“APOSTOLIC NUNCIATURE IN IRELAND
N. 808/97
Dublin, 31 January 1997

Strictly Confidential

To: the Members of the Irish Episcopal conference
—their Dioceses

Your Excellency,

The Congregation for the Clergy has attentively studied the complex question of sexual abuse or minors by clerics and the document entitled “Child Sexual Abuse: Framework for a Church Response”, published by the Irish Catholic Bishops Advisory Committee.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/vatican-warned-bishops-not-to-report-child-abuse?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NCRegisterDailyBlog+%2540The+Daily+Register%2541


49 posted on 01/19/2011 6:36:41 AM PST by OpusatFR
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To: dangus

The copy at the link will not enlarge for me. Do you know where else I might find it?

Hey someone brought up Hitler already. Are we on schedule or not.

It must not be a sin for Protestants to lie.


50 posted on 01/19/2011 6:38:53 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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