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His Grace Is Sufficient (LDS/Mormon)
LDS.org ^ | Kimberlee B. Garrett

Posted on 01/27/2011 7:00:03 PM PST by Paragon Defender

His Grace Is Sufficient

 

 

 

By Kimberlee B. Garrett

Kimberlee B. Garrett, "His Grace Is Sufficient", Ensign, Feb. 2011, 13

 

 

 

Like many people, I have struggled for much of my life to recognize my self-worth. I have fought weight problems for many years, which have contributed to my negative feelings. Even though I have lost weight and lead a healthy lifestyle now, occasionally I still find myself fighting off those negative thoughts and feelings.

One morning I felt particularly low and was wondering how to make the situation better. I began to pray and ask for Heavenly Father’s help to overcome these feelings of inadequacy. As I prayed, the following scripture came to my mind: “If ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity” (Moroni 10:22).

Iniquity seemed to be such a serious word, so much so that at first I discounted the thought because I could think of nothing that I had done seriously wrong. However, the thought persisted, so I prayed, as instructed also by Moroni, for Heavenly Father to show me my weakness that I might be made strong (see Ether 12:27).

I found myself remembering three incidents during the previous two days when I had not shown patience with my children. I had put my own moods and needs in front of theirs and had not been sensitive to their feelings. I felt bad and resolved to do better. I apologized to my children and prayed for forgiveness. As soon as I prayed, my feelings of inadequacy were lifted and I was able to feel the peace that had eluded me.

As though a light switch turned on in my mind, I finally understood a simple concept that somehow I had missed all these years. When I have unresolved sin in my life, even if it is small, I give Satan power to influence me. He knows my weaknesses, and he knows what words will “stir me up” and “lead me to destruction” (see D&C 10:22). When it comes right down to it, I don’t hate myself, but Satan does hate me and will use every tactic available to turn me away from the light.

However, when I repent, I rely on the power of Jesus Christ. Because He knows perfectly how to succor me in my weakness (see Alma 7:11–12), His power lifts me up and makes me strong in ways that I can’t be on my own.

Even the Apostle Paul, so valiant in proclaiming the gospel, suffered weakness and was plagued by its effects on him. Nevertheless, when he prayed to have the weakness removed, the Lord answered, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.” Paul then went on to exclaim, “Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9).

Likewise, I will do my best to repent and obey the commandments so the “power of Christ may rest upon me” and I can be filled with peace and love.

Like the Apostle Paul, I will do my best to repent and obey the commandments so the “power of Christ may rest upon me.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


TOPICS: Other Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: ctr; falseteachings; grace; inman; lds; mormon
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1 posted on 01/27/2011 7:00:05 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender

I agree with that. His grace is sufficient. Let’s hope we’re talking about the same Grace giver.


2 posted on 01/27/2011 7:02:10 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White)
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To: Paragon Defender; greyfoxx39; Godzilla
Toward the end of the article, 2 Cor. 12:9 -- with Paul emphasizing our weaknesses/infirmities -- & glorying w/them 'cause God's power is made perfect in that weak environment...is then turned all around by that last graph you have in there, PD! From the article: Like the Apostle Paul, I will...
...do my best...
...to repent and...
...obey the commandments SO...
...the “power of Christ may rest upon me.”

Say what? Typical twisted distortment by Lds.org!

I mean instead of staying on Scripture there about glorying in weakness, we have suddenly a focus on trying to be your strongest ("do my best...")!

And then, in order to somehow "qualify" for Christ's power to rest on her, she feels she needs to "earn" that by obeying the commandments...as if we obey them because of "what's in it for ME" -- to nab His power as some sort of legalistic trigger!

Jesus said "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."--Mt 9:12) Jesus is for the weak person who understands the cancerous diagnosis of sin, and can't on their own obey commands...they need His empowerment before they can obey...not the other way around -- that they obey SO (that) -- or in order to -- commandeer Christ's power.

Leave it to Mormonism to turn the Bible on its head yet again.

3 posted on 01/27/2011 7:18:38 PM PST by Colofornian ( Life isn't FAIR!)
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To: Paragon Defender; Colofornian; ejonesie22; reaganaut; greyfoxx39; All
Is the mormon Jesus' grace sufficient? Perhaps, but first the mormon must prove that they are worthy of that grace.

2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Does the mormon of today know without a shadow of doubt that they have done all they can do to prove worthy for that grace? One reads elsewhere:

MORONI 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

Well, this is more specific - except that ALL ungodliness must be denied by the mormon. Hmmmmm - oh yes, the article says by repenting - yes. Then one reads:

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 58:43: “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.”

What does forsake mean? Why Spencer W. Kimball wrote in "The Miracle of Forgiveness" (written at the direction and blessing of the prophet) "“There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin" and that this "Discontinuance of the sin must be permanent.". Oh, that is a pretty steep order, will the mormon god cut the mormon any slack?

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 1:31-32: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 82:7: “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”

Wow, the mormon god cannot look upon sin with any allowance PLUS if the mormon sins they are saddled with the OLD sins as well. This doesn't look too good for the mormon seeking 'grace'.

Well, may be the other mormon scripture may help me out -

JAMES 2:10: “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

1 JOHN 1: 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So, there is no way out for the mormon to attain his grace here either. What is left?

ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” Well the mormon is stuck by his own doctrine - in order to prove worthy for the grace of the mormon god, they must be sinless and completely godly - however the path for the mormon is impossible to attain.

"Seekers of Truth" as PD would say - is this what you want in your life? How can the mormon god promise you forgiveness when he holds you accountable for every sin you repeatedly commit? It is not without cause that we liken mushy messages as this article a used car salesman pitch - sound like true Christianity just enough to get them in, then switch on them.

Straight up question for you PD - are you perfect as Jesus commanded in Matthew?

4 posted on 01/27/2011 7:53:05 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

Disgusted placemarker ...


5 posted on 01/27/2011 7:57:04 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

I-AFTER-PDSPAM


6 posted on 01/27/2011 8:02:31 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Paragon Defender

WARNING: THIS THREAD HAS BEEN FLAGGED AS CULTIC MORMON SPAM BY FREEREPUBLIC’S FLYING INMAN (multi-denominational) CHRISTIAN TEAM.

As such, it is a perversion of Christian truth and stands in opposition to the Bible’s clear teaching.

READER BEWARE


7 posted on 01/27/2011 8:06:27 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Paragon Defender
Like the Apostle Paul, I will do my best to repent and obey the commandments so the “power of Christ may rest upon me.”

Paul was writing to Christians, not mormons, and he was clear that the power of Christ made perfect in Paul's weakness was not the result of dilligent repentance and adherence to commandments from/by Paul! Moronism is not Christianity, and the god and jesus of Mormonism are not the same God/Jesus of The Bible.

8 posted on 01/27/2011 8:15:20 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Paragon Defender; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; ...

Not according to Spencer W. Kimball. All quotes are from his book “the Miracle of Forgiveness”. It isn’t about grace at all, it is about works. Grace only ‘kicks in’ after all we can do, it isn’t enough in Mormonism to clease us from all sin.

So the question becomes, for Mormons, what is Christ’s grace sufficent for? Only Resurrection (which is how they define ‘saved by grace’).

* “We understood also that after a period varying from seconds to decades of mortal life we would die, our bodies would go back to Mother Earth from which they had been created, and our spirits would go to the spirit world, where we would further train for our eternal destiny. After a period, there would be a resurrection or a reunion of the body and the spirit, which would render us immortal and make possible our further climb toward perfection and godhood.” (p. 5)
* “The Lord will not translate one’s good hopes and desires and intentions into works. Each of us must do that for himself.” (p. 8)
* “It is true that many Latter-day Saints, having been baptized and confirmed members of the Church, and some even having received their endowments and having been married and sealed in the holy temple, have felt that they were thus guaranteed the blessings of exaltation and eternal life. But this is not so. There are two basic requirements every soul must fulfill or he cannot attain to the great blessings offered. He must receive the ordinances and he must be faithful, overcoming his weaknesses. Hence, not all who claim to be Latter-day Saints will be exalted. But for those Latter-day Saints who are valiant, who fulfill the requirements faithfully and fully, the promises are glorious beyond description: ‘Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.’ (D&C 132:20)” (p. 9)
* “There are even many members of the Church who are lax and careless and who continually procrastinate. They live the gospel casually but not devoutly. They have complied with some requirements but are not valiant. They do no major crime but merely fail to do the things required—things like paying tithing, living the Word of Wisdom, having family prayers, fasting, attending meetings, serving. Perhaps they do not consider such omissions to be sins, yet these were the kinds of things of which the five foolish virgins of Jesus’ parable were probably guilty. The ten virgins belonged to the kingdom and had every right to the blessings—except that five were not valiant and were not ready when the great day came. They were unprepared through not living all the commandments. They were bitterly disappointed at being shut out from the marriage—as likewise their modern counterparts will be... Because men are prone to postpone action and ignore directions, the Lord has repeatedly given strict injunctions and issued solemn warnings. Again and again in different phraseology and throughout the centuries the Lord has reminded man so that he could never have excuse. And the burden of the prophetic warning has been that the time to act is now, in this mortal life. One cannot with impunity delay his compliance with God’s commandments.” (pp. 7–10)
* “All sins but those excepted by the Lord-—basically, the sin against the Holy Ghost, and murder-—will be forgiven to those who totally, consistently, and continuously repent in a genuine and comprehensive transformation of life... This earth life is the time to repent. We cannot afford to take any chances of dying an enemy to God.” (p. 14, 15)
* “The reason is forthrightly stated by Nephi— ‘. . . There cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God . . .’ (1 Ne. 15:34.) And again, ‘. . . no unclean thing can dwell with God . . .’ (1 Ne. 10:21.) To the prophets the term unclean in this context means what it means to God. To man the word may be relative in meaning—one minute speck of dirt does not make a white shirt or dress unclean, for example. But to God who is perfection, cleanliness means moral and personal cleanliness. Less than that is, in one degree or another, uncleanliness and hence cannot dwell with God.” (p. 19)[4]
* “Repentance is inseparable from time. No one can repent on the cross, nor in prison, nor in custody. One must have the opportunity of committing wrong in order to be really repentant. The man in handcuffs, the prisoner in the penitentiary, the man as he drowns, or as he dies-—such a man certainly cannot repent totally. He can wish to do it, he may intend to change his life, he may determine that he will, but that is only the beginning. That is why we should not wait for the life beyond but should abandon evil habits and weaknesses while in the flesh on the earth... Clearly it is difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins involving physical habits and actions. There one has spirit and mind but not the physical power to overcome a physical habit” (p. 83).
* “True repentance is not only sorrow for sins, and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light.” (p. 149)
* “There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin. Desire is not sufficient. In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his ways and started on a new path… the saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life. Trying is not sufficient.” (p. 163)
* “That is why we should not wait for the life beyond but should abandon evil habits and weaknesses while in the flesh on the earth. Elder Melvin J. Ballard pinpointed this problem: A man may receive the priesthood and all its privileges and blessings, but until he learns to overcome the flesh, his temper, his tongue, his disposition to indulge in the things God has forbidden, he cannot come into the celestial kingdom of God-he must overcome either in this life or in the life to come. But this life is the time in which men are to repent. Do not let any of us imagine that we can go down to the grave not having overcome the corruptions of the flesh and then lose in the grave all our sins and evil tendencies. They will be with us. They will be with the spirit when separated from the body. Clearly it is difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins involving physical habits and actions. There one has spirit and mind but not the physical power to overcome a physical habit. He can desire to change his life, but how can he overcome the lusts of the flesh unless he has flesh to control and transform? How can he overcome the tobacco or the drink habit in the spirit world where there is no liquor nor tobacco and no flesh to crave it? Similarly with other sins involving lack of control over the body.” (p. 163)
* “Perhaps one reason murder is so heinous is that man cannot restore life. Man’s mortal life is given him in which to repent and prepare himself for eternity, and should one of his fellowmen terminate his life and thus limit his progress by making his repentance impossible it is a ghastly deed, a tremendous responsibility for which the murderer may not be able to atone in his lifetime” (p. 188)
* “Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowmen. A reforming adulterer who drinks or curses is not repentant. The repenting burglar who has sex play is not ready for forgiveness. God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of his life.” (p. 203)[4]
* “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (pp. 206-207)
* “Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal. ... Christ became perfect through overcoming. Only as we overcome shall we become perfect and move toward godhood. As I have indicated previously, the time to do this is now, in mortality.” (p. 208-209)
* “In the context of the spirit of forgiveness, one good brother asked me, “Yes, that is what ought to be done, but how do you do it? Doesn’t that take a superman?’ ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘but we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt. 5:48.) We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us.’” (p. 286)
* “I have referred previously to the significance of this life in the application of repentance but will emphasize it here in relation to the eventual judgment. One cannot delay repentance until the next life, the spirit world, and there prepare properly for the day of judgment while the ordinance work is done for him vicariously on earth. It must be remembered that vicarious work for the dead is for those who could not do the work for themselves. Men and women who live in mortality and who have heard the gospel here have had their day, their seventy years to put their lives in harmony, to perform the ordinances, to repent and to perfect their lives.” (pp. 313-314)
* “Little reward can be expected for a tiny effort to repent, for the Lord has said that it must be a total repentance “with all his heart” and the error must be forsaken fully and wholly, mentally as well as physically. The “filthy dreamer” of the day or night, or an adulterer who still has desires toward the object of his sin, who still revels in the memories of his sin, has not forsaken it “with all his heart” as required by holy scripture.” (p. 333)
* “Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works—many works—and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and ‘a broken heart and a contrite spirit.’ It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could he weeks, it could he years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes” (pp. 324-325).
* “This passage indicates an attitude which is basic to the sanctification we should all be seeking, and thus to the repentance which merits forgiveness. It is that the former transgressor must have reached a “point of no return” to sin wherein there is not merely a renunciation but also a deep abhorrence of the sin where the sin becomes most distasteful to him and where the desire or urge to sin is cleared out of his life.” (pp. 354-355)
* “We can hardly be too forceful in reminding people that they cannot sin and be forgiven and then sin again and again and expect repeated forgiveness. The Lord anticipated the weakness of men which would return him to his transgression and he gave this warning (D&C 82:7)”. (p. 360)


9 posted on 01/27/2011 8:45:45 PM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: reaganaut; Paragon Defender; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; ...

Indeed, “the Miracle of Forgiveness” would have to be a miracle!!!! No one can attain the standard that Kimball puts forth.

Tell us PD, are you PERFECT as Jesus commanded?


10 posted on 01/27/2011 8:49:57 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: reaganaut
Reformatted a bit, hope you don't mind. Btw, that thumping sound you heard? That was Spencer getting tossed under the bus.

-------------------------------------------------

Not according to Spencer W. Kimball. All quotes are from his book “the Miracle of Forgiveness”. It isn’t about grace at all, it is about works. Grace only ‘kicks in’ after all we can do, it isn’t enough in Mormonism to clease us from all sin.

So the question becomes, for Mormons, what is Christ’s grace sufficent for? Only Resurrection (which is how they define ‘saved by grace’).

* “We understood also that after a period varying from seconds to decades of mortal life we would die, our bodies would go back to Mother Earth from which they had been created, and our spirits would go to the spirit world, where we would further train for our eternal destiny. After a period, there would be a resurrection or a reunion of the body and the spirit, which would render us immortal and make possible our further climb toward perfection and godhood.” (p. 5)

* “The Lord will not translate one’s good hopes and desires and intentions into works. Each of us must do that for himself.” (p. 8)

* “It is true that many Latter-day Saints, having been baptized and confirmed members of the Church, and some even having received their endowments and having been married and sealed in the holy temple, have felt that they were thus guaranteed the blessings of exaltation and eternal life. But this is not so. There are two basic requirements every soul must fulfill or he cannot attain to the great blessings offered. He must receive the ordinances and he must be faithful, overcoming his weaknesses. Hence, not all who claim to be Latter-day Saints will be exalted. But for those Latter-day Saints who are valiant, who fulfill the requirements faithfully and fully, the promises are glorious beyond description: ‘Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.’ (D&C 132:20)” (p. 9)

* “There are even many members of the Church who are lax and careless and who continually procrastinate. They live the gospel casually but not devoutly. They have complied with some requirements but are not valiant. They do no major crime but merely fail to do the things required—things like paying tithing, living the Word of Wisdom, having family prayers, fasting, attending meetings, serving. Perhaps they do not consider such omissions to be sins, yet these were the kinds of things of which the five foolish virgins of Jesus’ parable were probably guilty. The ten virgins belonged to the kingdom and had every right to the blessings—except that five were not valiant and were not ready when the great day came. They were unprepared through not living all the commandments. They were bitterly disappointed at being shut out from the marriage—as likewise their modern counterparts will be... Because men are prone to postpone action and ignore directions, the Lord has repeatedly given strict injunctions and issued solemn warnings. Again and again in different phraseology and throughout the centuries the Lord has reminded man so that he could never have excuse. And the burden of the prophetic warning has been that the time to act is now, in this mortal life. One cannot with impunity delay his compliance with God’s commandments.” (pp. 7–10)

* “All sins but those excepted by the Lord-—basically, the sin against the Holy Ghost, and murder-—will be forgiven to those who totally, consistently, and continuously repent in a genuine and comprehensive transformation of life... This earth life is the time to repent. We cannot afford to take any chances of dying an enemy to God.” (p. 14, 15)

* “The reason is forthrightly stated by Nephi— ‘. . . There cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God . . .’ (1 Ne. 15:34.) And again, ‘. . . no unclean thing can dwell with God . . .’ (1 Ne. 10:21.) To the prophets the term unclean in this context means what it means to God. To man the word may be relative in meaning—one minute speck of dirt does not make a white shirt or dress unclean, for example. But to God who is perfection, cleanliness means moral and personal cleanliness. Less than that is, in one degree or another, uncleanliness and hence cannot dwell with God.” (p. 19)[4]

* “Repentance is inseparable from time. No one can repent on the cross, nor in prison, nor in custody. One must have the opportunity of committing wrong in order to be really repentant. The man in handcuffs, the prisoner in the penitentiary, the man as he drowns, or as he dies-—such a man certainly cannot repent totally. He can wish to do it, he may intend to change his life, he may determine that he will, but that is only the beginning. That is why we should not wait for the life beyond but should abandon evil habits and weaknesses while in the flesh on the earth... Clearly it is difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins involving physical habits and actions. There one has spirit and mind but not the physical power to overcome a physical habit” (p. 83).

* “True repentance is not only sorrow for sins, and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light.” (p. 149)

* “There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin. Desire is not sufficient. In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his ways and started on a new path… the saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life. Trying is not sufficient.” (p. 163)

* “That is why we should not wait for the life beyond but should abandon evil habits and weaknesses while in the flesh on the earth. Elder Melvin J. Ballard pinpointed this problem: A man may receive the priesthood and all its privileges and blessings, but until he learns to overcome the flesh, his temper, his tongue, his disposition to indulge in the things God has forbidden, he cannot come into the celestial kingdom of God-he must overcome either in this life or in the life to come. But this life is the time in which men are to repent. Do not let any of us imagine that we can go down to the grave not having overcome the corruptions of the flesh and then lose in the grave all our sins and evil tendencies. They will be with us. They will be with the spirit when separated from the body. Clearly it is difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins involving physical habits and actions. There one has spirit and mind but not the physical power to overcome a physical habit. He can desire to change his life, but how can he overcome the lusts of the flesh unless he has flesh to control and transform? How can he overcome the tobacco or the drink habit in the spirit world where there is no liquor nor tobacco and no flesh to crave it? Similarly with other sins involving lack of control over the body.” (p. 163)

* “Perhaps one reason murder is so heinous is that man cannot restore life. Man’s mortal life is given him in which to repent and prepare himself for eternity, and should one of his fellowmen terminate his life and thus limit his progress by making his repentance impossible it is a ghastly deed, a tremendous responsibility for which the murderer may not be able to atone in his lifetime” (p. 188)

* “Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowmen. A reforming adulterer who drinks or curses is not repentant. The repenting burglar who has sex play is not ready for forgiveness. God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of his life.” (p. 203)[4]

* “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (pp. 206-207)

* “Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal. ... Christ became perfect through overcoming. Only as we overcome shall we become perfect and move toward godhood. As I have indicated previously, the time to do this is now, in mortality.” (p. 208-209)

* “In the context of the spirit of forgiveness, one good brother asked me, “Yes, that is what ought to be done, but how do you do it? Doesn’t that take a superman?’ ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘but we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt. 5:48.) We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us.’” (p. 286)

* “I have referred previously to the significance of this life in the application of repentance but will emphasize it here in relation to the eventual judgment. One cannot delay repentance until the next life, the spirit world, and there prepare properly for the day of judgment while the ordinance work is done for him vicariously on earth. It must be remembered that vicarious work for the dead is for those who could not do the work for themselves. Men and women who live in mortality and who have heard the gospel here have had their day, their seventy years to put their lives in harmony, to perform the ordinances, to repent and to perfect their lives.” (pp. 313-314)

* “Little reward can be expected for a tiny effort to repent, for the Lord has said that it must be a total repentance “with all his heart” and the error must be forsaken fully and wholly, mentally as well as physically. The “filthy dreamer” of the day or night, or an adulterer who still has desires toward the object of his sin, who still revels in the memories of his sin, has not forsaken it “with all his heart” as required by holy scripture.” (p. 333)

* “Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works—many works—and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and ‘a broken heart and a contrite spirit.’ It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could he weeks, it could he years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes” (pp. 324-325).

* “This passage indicates an attitude which is basic to the sanctification we should all be seeking, and thus to the repentance which merits forgiveness. It is that the former transgressor must have reached a “point of no return” to sin wherein there is not merely a renunciation but also a deep abhorrence of the sin where the sin becomes most distasteful to him and where the desire or urge to sin is cleared out of his life.” (pp. 354-355)

* “We can hardly be too forceful in reminding people that they cannot sin and be forgiven and then sin again and again and expect repeated forgiveness. The Lord anticipated the weakness of men which would return him to his transgression and he gave this warning (D&C 82:7)”. (p. 360)

11 posted on 01/27/2011 8:56:22 PM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: SZonian
Btw, that thumping sound you heard? That was Spencer getting tossed under the bus.

LOL,

Joining such notables as bring'em young and bruce mcconkie.

12 posted on 01/27/2011 9:07:48 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: SZonian

Don’t mind at all, thank you in fact.


13 posted on 01/27/2011 9:18:21 PM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: Godzilla; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

When I was a faithful Mormon apologist my response would have probably been...

Well, Christ’s grace is sufficient because it is his grace that HELPS ME be obedient and do good works.

Never would have I said his grace was sufficient to get me back to God the Father. They don’t think that way.

Now watch the usual suspects will be on calling me a liar or saying I didn’t understand Mormonism.


14 posted on 01/27/2011 9:22:47 PM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: Godzilla; Paragon Defender

Oh, and before the LDS come on and say “That book isn’t used anymore”, one of my LDS friends was required to read it and work out a ‘repentance plan’ of works and scripture reading because she was disciplined FALL 2010. So, yeah, it is still widely recommended.


15 posted on 01/27/2011 9:25:46 PM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: reaganaut; Paragon Defender

Indeed!

So Paragon - are you perfect as Jesus commanded?


16 posted on 01/27/2011 9:35:43 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Paragon Defender
 

His Grace Is Sufficient

 
Maybe: maybe not...
 

 

AoF #3
 
 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
 
or...
 
 
Mosiah 3:21
 
And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent.
 
 
It must be REALLY confusing to be a MORMON!

17 posted on 01/28/2011 3:05:45 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SZonian
The repenting burglar who has sex play is not ready for forgiveness.
 
 
What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?
 


"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.



prophet kimball"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."


- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982

 

 

 

 

 


spencer kimball"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82
 

"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65


spencer kimball"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
-
Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196


"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.

 


kimball"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965


"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

 


18 posted on 01/28/2011 3:10:52 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Godzilla; SZonian
Btw, that thumping sound you heard? That was Spencer getting tossed under the bus.
 
 
 
 
1978: Bruce R. McConkie , in an address to CES employees entitled, "All are alike unto god", states:
"Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past.
 
They don't matter any more."

19 posted on 01/28/2011 3:12:30 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut

Some folks have lost the memo.


20 posted on 01/28/2011 3:13:25 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
 
 Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice.




Mormon Missionary Rules

  1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
  2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
  3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
  4. Don't debate or argue.
  5. Center your mind on your mission.
  6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees.  No floor-length skirts or dresses.
  7. Cut your hair regularly.
  8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
  9. Be neat and clean.
  10. Bathe frequently.
  11. Use deodorant.
  12. Polish your shoes.
  13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
  14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
  15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
  16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
  17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
  18. Exercise regularly.
  19. Write in your journal regularly.
  20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
  21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
  22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
  23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
  24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
  25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
  26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
  27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
  28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
  29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
  30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
  31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
  32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
  33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
  34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
  35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
  36. Do not go on road trips.
  37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission ("District leaders must approve travel outside your area within the district; zone leaders must approve travel outside your district within the zone; and the mission president must approve travel outside the zone.")
  38. Do not watch television.
  39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
  40. Do not listen to the radio.
  41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
  42. Do not participate in musical groups.
  43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
  44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
  45. Do not engage in contact sports.
  46. Do not engage in water sports.
  47. Do not engage in winter sports.
  48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
  49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
  50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
  51. Do not embark on a private boat.
  52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
  53. Do not handle firearms.
  54. Do not handle explosives.
  55. Do not swim.
  56. Do not play full court basketball.
  57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
  58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
  59. You may play half-court basketball.
  60. Never be alone.
  61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
  62. Be loyal to your companion.
  63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
  64. Pray with your companion every day.
  65. Study with your companion every day.
  66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
  67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
  68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
  69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
  70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
  71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
  72. Do not arise before your companion.
  73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
  74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
  75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
  76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
  77. Do not flirt.
  78. Do not date.
  79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
  80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
  81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
  82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
  83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
  84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
  85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
  86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
  87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
  88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
  89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
  90. Do not telephone parents (in some areas, the mission president will make an exception to this rule and will allow 2 phone calls per year: one on Christmas and one on Mother's day.  But the actual rule in the handbook does not give any exceptions.  In my mission, the mission president affirmed that the rule in the handbook is unambiguous: Don't telephone your parents, no exceptions).
  91. Do not telephone relatives.
  92. Do not telephone friends.
  93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
  94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
  95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
  96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president (There are no checks, balances, or appeals when it comes to the authority of the mission president).
  97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert (I have to wonder, isn't it intrinsically disrespectful to their customs and traditions when your purpose for engaging them is to convert them from their customs and traditions and to yours?)
  98. Obey all mission rules.
  99. Obey the laws of the land.
  100. Do not get involved in politics.
  101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
  102. Do not give any information about the area.
  103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
  104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
  105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
  106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
  107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
  108. Be courteous.
  109. Provide community service.
  110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
  111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
  112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
  113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
  114. Keep your housing unit clean.
  115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
  116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
  117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
  118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
  119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
  120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators. (I wonder if this is because prayer and fasting doesn't cause strangers to convert and consequently proves to be a faith-demoting experience).
  121. Maintain your health.
  122. Eat a healthy diet.
  123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
  124. Follow the approved exercise program.
  125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
  126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
  127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
  128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
  129. Be immunized.
  130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
  131. Budget your money carefully.
  132. Keep a record of what you spend.
  133. Do not spend more than your companion.
  134. Do not loan money.
  135. Do not borrow money.
  136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
  137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
  138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
  139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
  140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
  141. Be a frugal photographer.
  142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
  143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
  144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
  145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
  146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
  147. Do not drive without a license.
  148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
  149. Do not drive members’ cars.
  150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
  151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.  (A few investigators have asked me why the missionaries are reluctant to offer them a ride to church.  The answer: giving rides is against the rules).
  152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
  153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
  154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
  155. Drive defensively.
  156. Wear your seat belt.
  157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving. 
  158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
  159. Do not tamper with the vehicles odometer.
  160. Know bicycle safety rules.
  161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
  162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
  163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
  164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
  165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
  166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
  167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.


 Funny; I didn't see it mentioned...


21 posted on 01/28/2011 3:17:58 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Doesn’t that arrive the same time and the ‘word of the month’ from SLC?


22 posted on 01/28/2011 4:43:20 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: SZonian
* “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (LDS Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 206-207)
23 posted on 01/28/2011 4:46:13 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: Elsie

Elsie, your quotes are only in opposition if you view them through the eyes of an anti-Mormon activists trying to find something. As always, you have nothing.


24 posted on 01/28/2011 4:54:09 AM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: MHGinTN

Sorry dude but no matter how you twist it, view it, interpret it or want it not to be, Mormons are Christian. The Church of Jesus Christ of Letter-Day Saints is Christ’s church restored in these latter days.


25 posted on 01/28/2011 5:09:32 AM PST by Paragon Defender
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place marker


26 posted on 01/28/2011 5:55:41 AM PST by svcw (God doesn't show up in our time, but He shows up on time)
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To: reaganaut

Sometimes it does; and yet...


27 posted on 01/28/2011 6:17:22 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paragon Defender
 

Elsie, your quotes are only in opposition if you view them through the eyes of an anti-Mormon activists trying to find something. As always, you have nothing.

 
 
 
 

28 posted on 01/28/2011 6:19:29 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paragon Defender
Sorry dude but no matter how you twist it, view it, interpret it or want it not to be, Mormons are Christian. The Church of Jesus Christ of Letter-Day Saints is Christ’s church restored in these latter days.


29 posted on 01/28/2011 6:21:26 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paragon Defender; MHGinTN

Sorry dude but no matter how you twist it, view it, interpret it or want it not to be, Mormons are NOT Christian. The Church of Jesus Christ of Letter-Day Saints is A LIE.

There I fixed it for you PD.

Even your own prophet admitted that the LDS worship a different Christ. So either the LDS are Christians and no one else is, or Traditional Christianity is Christian and the LDS are not.

So, are you willing to pony up and admit that the LDS don’t think anyone who is NOT LDS is a Christian?


30 posted on 01/28/2011 6:35:16 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: reaganaut; Godzilla

My wife read it and still has it.

It hasn’t been tossed on the Farenheit 451 pyre mormon style.

To be honest, she found it to be one of the most difficult books she’s ever read. Whether that means the tenets and concepts or just plain readability, I don’t know.


31 posted on 01/28/2011 6:44:55 AM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: Paragon Defender
"Sorry dude but no matter how you twist it, view it, interpret it or want it not to be, Mormons are NOT Christian."

Fixed.

32 posted on 01/28/2011 6:48:52 AM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: reaganaut

Even your own prophet admitted that the LDS worship a different Christ. So either the LDS are Christians and no one else is, or Traditional Christianity is Christian and the LDS are not.

So, are you willing to pony up and admit that the LDS don’t think anyone who is NOT LDS is a Christian?


As is typical of an anti-Mormon propaganda source. You ignore what was said and substitute what you want to hear.

The LDS Church is Christ’s Church restored and therefore Christian. Other Christian Church’s can still qualify as Christian even if they don’t have entirely correct understandings.


33 posted on 01/28/2011 7:20:58 AM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender

How much LDS blasphemy do you suppose God will tolerate?


34 posted on 01/28/2011 7:36:58 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Paragon Defender; Godzilla

Other Christian Church’s can still qualify as Christian even if they don’t have entirely correct understandings.

- - - - -
Says who? Gordon B. Hinkley said the LDS worship a different Christ than traditional Christianity, as did BY, Orson Pratt, Joseph Smith, Bruce McConkie.

Want quotes?

Or do you know more than your prophets?


35 posted on 01/28/2011 8:04:30 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: Paragon Defender
"The traditional Christ of whom they [Non-LDS] speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times'"
36 posted on 01/28/2011 8:30:52 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: reaganaut

from http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/christianity.html

“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.”
“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.’”
“He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, ‘Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.’ I then said to my mother, ‘I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.’ It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me?

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Joseph Smith–History, v. 1, pp. 8–26

“What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270

“...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60

“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl

Prophet Brigham Young (1801 - 1877):

“He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong; that they were following the precepts of men instead of the Lord Jesus; that He had a work for him to perform, inasmuch as he should prove faithful before Him.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 171

“Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176

“When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 73

“With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199

“The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171

“...the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans. And subsequently the Priesthood was taken from among men, this authority was re-called into the heavens, and the world was left without the Priesthood—without the power of God—without the Church and Kingdom of God.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 22, p. 44

Apostle Heber C. Kimball (1802 - 1868):

“Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers’ sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89

Prophet John Taylor (1808 - 1887):

“Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.”

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167

“Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom.”

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 127

“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.”

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225

“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.”

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225

Apostle Orson Pratt (1811 - 1881):

“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

“But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches ... But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 18, p. 172

“... who, in his right mind, could, for one moment, suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, “The Bible and Tradition, without Further Revelation, an insufficient Guide,” Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon – No. 3, December 1, 1850, p. 47; see Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 383-384

“This great apostacy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now. A short time after the death of the last of the Apostles, the Christian Church, what few of them remained, were persecuted from mountain to mountain, from den to den, from one cave of the earth to another, and from nation to nation until they were entirely exterminated and rooted out of the earth. Well, what was left? An apostate Christianity, a Christianity without revelators, without any voice of God, without any Prophets to unfold the future, without visions, without any communications from the heavens.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 18, p. 44

“This class of men, calling themselves Christian, uniting with the various forms of the pagan religion, adopting many of their ceremonies and institutions, became very popular, and finally some of the pagans embraced Christianity and were placed, as it were, upon the throne, and what they termed Christianity became very popular indeed. How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 14, p. 346

“But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be. They say, “We have built chapels unto the name of the Lord; we call our Churches Christian Churches, they are called the Church of Christ, St. John’s Church, St. Paul’s Church, St. Peter’s Church, and after others of the ancient Apostles;” and one who had never studied the pattern which God has given of the Christian Church would almost really believe that they are Christian Churches. But there has been a long apostacy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance, and they are represented in the revelations of St. John as a woman sitting upon a scarlet colored beast, having a golden cup in her hand, full of filthiness and abominations, full of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; that in her forehead there was a name written—”Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots.” This kind of a church has existed in great abundance, for as John the Revelator says, she was to have her dominion upon many waters, and she was to make all nations drunken with the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 18, p. 172

“Q. After the Church of Christ fled from earth to heaven, what was left? A. A set of wicked Apostates, murderers, and idolaters, who, after having made war with the saints, and overcome them, and destroyed them out of the earth, were left to follow the wicked imaginations of their own corrupt hearts, and to build up churches by human authority, and to follow after the cunning craftiness of uninspired men; having no Apostle, Prophet, or Revelator to inquire of God for them: and thus, because of wickedness, the Church, and Priesthood, and gifts, and ordinances and blessings of the everlasting Gospel, were taken from the earth, and reserved in heaven until the fulness of times, when it was predicted that they should again be restored among men to continue until the end should come.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Chapter 16, p. 205

Prophet Wilford Woodruff (1807 - 1898):

“The Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called”

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 196

Apostle George Q. Cannon (1827 - 1901):

“After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon.”

- Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p. 324

Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith (1876 - 1972):

“Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 266

“For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the ‘Christian’ churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 282

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 - 1985):

“...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization [Christianity], founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13

“Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46

“... all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.... in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375

Prophet Ezra Taft Benson (1899 - 1994):

“This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth...”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 164-165

Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley (1910 - ):

“We accept that as a statement which came to him [Joseph Smith’s vision in which he was told all other religions were “abominations”], which is printed, of course, and published in his history as a statement. But we go forward with a friendly relationship, with a respect for people everywhere and with an effort to accept them as we meet them and, where opportunity exists, to talk with them and explain to them what we believe.... We don’t criticize them for what they believe. We accept the good that comes of that understanding which they have, but we feel we having something to offer beyond what they have.”

- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, interview with Richard Ostling, as quoted in Mormon America, by Richard and Joan Ostling, p. 323

“Said he [a Protestant minister] ‘I’ve been all through this building, this temple which carries on its face the name of Jesus Christ, but nowhere have I seen any representation of the cross, the symbol of Christianity. I have noted your buildings elsewhere and likewise find an absence of the cross. Why is this when you say you believe in Jesus Christ.’ I responded:‘ I do not wish to give offense to any of my Christian brethren who use the cross on the steeples of their cathedrals and at the altars of their chapels, who wear it on their vestments, and imprint it on their books and other literature. But for us, the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the living Christ.’ He then asked: ‘If you do not use the cross, what is the symbol of your religion?’ I replied that the lives of our people must become the only meaningful expression of our faith and, in fact, therefore, the symbol of our worship.”

- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, April 1975

Others:

“… we can see the situation in which the world now stands that the eyes of the whole world are blinded, that the chuches have all become corrupted, yea every church upon the face of the earth; that the Gospel of Christ is nowhere preached.”

- Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph Smith Jr.’s mother, letter to Solomon Mack, January 6, 1831, reprinted, in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, v. 1, p. 216

“God is not at its head, making that church [i.e., Christianity] – following the appearance in it of Satan – no longer the church of God. To say that Satan sits in the place of God in Christianity after the time of the apostles is not to say that all that is in it is Satanic.”

- Kent P. Jackson, “Early Signs of Apostasy,” Ensign, December 1984, p. 9


37 posted on 01/28/2011 8:32:35 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: reaganaut
“After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon.” - Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p. 324
38 posted on 01/28/2011 8:33:59 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: SoConPubbie

kerping to a post with many more quotes


39 posted on 01/28/2011 9:02:39 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: SZonian; reaganaut
To be honest, she found it to be one of the most difficult books she’s ever read. Whether that means the tenets and concepts or just plain readability, I don’t know.

The question would be how does she reconcile it to today's mormonism? Is the teaching 'false' or contrary to the generic teaching today? If false, then he is nothing less than a false teacher.

40 posted on 01/28/2011 10:25:07 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Paragon Defender; reaganaut
The LDS Church is Christ’s Church restored and therefore Christian.

nope pd, the substitution is yours. There is no evidence that a restoration was needed, no evidence that smith told the truth, no evidence that the bom is true.

Still waiting to hear if you are PERFECT yet PD as Jesus commanded.

41 posted on 01/28/2011 10:27:33 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

I don’t know. I’ll have to take a look at all of the quotes, compare them to Biblical teachings and then discuss those with her.


42 posted on 01/28/2011 11:06:08 AM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: SZonian
To be honest, she found it to be one of the most difficult books she’s ever read. Whether that means the tenets and concepts or just plain readability, I don’t know.


 
 
THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
 
The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
 
 
 1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
  2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
  3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
  4 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
  5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
  6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
  7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
  8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
  9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
  10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
  11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
  12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
  13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
  14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
  15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
  16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
  17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
  18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
  19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
  20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
  21 Now  it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
  22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
  23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
  24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
  25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
  26 And it came to pass  that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
  27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
  28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
  29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
  30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
  31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
  32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
  33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
  34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
  35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
  36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
  37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
  38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
  39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.


43 posted on 01/28/2011 11:24:33 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SZonian; reaganaut; greyfoxx39; colorcountry
Not quite the point I was trying to make SZ. Modern mormon "teaching", at least as projected by many mormons here for public consumption, is close to Christianity in regards to the use of the word "grace". However, we know that before grace can even kick in HUGE requirements for a sinless life must be attained (as indicated by "The Miracle of Forgiveness"). The question framed should be does Jesus grant us an "grace" - we do what we can do and get along; or does grace come from the strict standards laid out by TMoF? They conflict with each other greatly to the point where they could be in open contradiction with each.

Unfortunately I don't sit in on lds meetings to hear what they are teaching first hand regarding 'grace'. But if it is anything like the thread article describes - someone is presenting a false teaching, either the author or Kimball. If she rejects Kimball, then Kimball would have to be a false teacher.

44 posted on 01/28/2011 11:37:06 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

One would be tempted to presume a few are Saved by trusting in God’s Grace in Christ Jesus DESPITE the heresies and blasphemies that hallmark Mormonism. But it is frightening to consider that so many children are raised up in the heresies and become adults unable to discern the demonic path of Mormonism as anathema to the message of The Gospel of Grace which brings Born Again at that moment not after all that they can do to placate the god of Mormonism.


45 posted on 01/28/2011 2:19:46 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

bttt


46 posted on 01/28/2011 4:56:50 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

placemarker


47 posted on 01/28/2011 8:00:38 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: MHGinTN
One would be tempted to presume a few are Saved by trusting in God’s Grace in Christ Jesus DESPITE the heresies and blasphemies that hallmark Mormonism.

There is no temptation to believe that, go to www.hotm.tv and check out Shawn McCreary's story "Born Again Mormon". He states though that a truly saved individual will eventually find it unbearable to try to continue in the mormonite religion because of the absence of the Spirit of God.

48 posted on 01/28/2011 8:08:18 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

I’m watch hotm.tv every week.


49 posted on 01/28/2011 8:15:27 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Godzilla

Perhaps I should clarify now that I’ve put down the spoonful of chunchy peanut butter. I watch Heart of the Matter every week (www.hotm.tv)


50 posted on 01/28/2011 8:19:26 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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