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Flashcards: Mission Prep Final [MormonISM missionary - Open]
Quizlet.com ^ | Dec. 7, 2010 | Paldog

Posted on 01/29/2011 7:01:29 AM PST by Colofornian

Mission Prep Final ...terms

...According to...Joseph Smith, what is...channel through which all knowledge is revealed? Melchizedek priesthood
As the Manual teaches, what is...to understand in order to recognize the Lord's hand in the Restoration? Apostasy and restoration
SNIP
According to the Manual...why did false doctrines begin to be taught and the true Church lost? No revelation or priesthood authority
According to the Manual, what are...characteristics of the Great Apostasy? Lost...understanding of...nature of...Godhead, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost
SNIP
As stated by...Joseph F. Smith, what...greatest event...has ever occurred since the Lord's resurrection? The First Vision
SNIP
T/F According to the Manual, we may never know all...detail about how the Prophet Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. True
According to Elder...Wirthlin, what is heart of missionary proselyting? The Book of Mormon
What did Elder...Wirthlin teach about conversion to the Book of Mormon and its importance in conversion? Conversion to the book is conversion to Christ
SNIP
According to President Ezra Taft Benson, in handling objections to the Church, what is the only problem the objector has to resolve? Whether the Book of Mormon is true
In Elder...Nelson's discussion of Heavenly Father's plan, what assures us a round trip ticket to our heavenly father's home? Death
SNIP
According to Elder...Wirthlin, how can we know if our faith is in harmony with the will of God? We must...heed the counsel of latter-day prophets...
SNIP
President...Hunter said, "The __ are absolutely crucial; we cannot return to God's presence without them." Temple ordinances...

(Excerpt) Read more at quizlet.com ...


TOPICS: Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; missionary; mormon; test
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Clarification on "author" -- Paldog merely posted these already existing questions to this flash card study Web site.

So we have one component here of the doctrinal "cram" & "crunch" that the Mormon Church apparently prepares its missionaries with at Missionary Training Centers.

So...haven't you really wondered a bit of what goes on prior to those Mormon missionaries interrupting your day with a doorbell ring?

I excerpted 23% of the questions posted -- selecting the most objectionable responses, btw, from a true Christian perspective.

What's objectionable about these?

Although not numbered on the site, allow me to number them and address them two by two:

1. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: ...According to...Joseph Smith, what is...channel through which all knowledge is revealed? Melchizedek priesthood

Uh, using my beg-to-differ cough, the channel through which ALL knowledge is revealed is NOT the Mormon Melchizedek priesthood! Lofty claims. Yet that is what the Mormon church is brainwashing their missionaries into believing!

Of course, what if we literally took this Mormon church claim as "THE" truth?
Wouldn't that mean that...
...say, a Romney or Huntsman was POTUS, and they wanted more "knowledgeable" advisements re: "knowledge" that truly mattered in the eternal state of things...
...Why, who would they call if they were "good Mormons?" (Why of course, a Melchizedek priest or two or three would advise them as POTUS...after all, apparently "ALL knowledge" is revealed through that lone channel!!! ALL other channels are not only suspect, but apparently fails to constitute true "knowledge!")

If the Mormon priesthood is the lone channel of knowledge, it makes you wonder why the printed canonized "revelations" of the Mormon god are so sparse in their "Doctrine & Covenants" these past 160 years or so...

Perhaps the Mormon "god" has very few things to mumble about except for
(a) changing his mind on skin-color in 1978 and
(b) calling a dream about "dead people" "scripture" -- a vision by a man -- Joseph F. Smith -- who in his 80s was ill & about to die...and was grieving the death of his son & daughter-in-law...etc.

2. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: As the Manual teaches, what is...to understand in order to recognize the Lord's hand in the Restoration? Apostasy and restoration

Allow me to interpret this: This claim of "recogniz[ing] the Lord's hand in the restoration" = the Mormon church being 100% dependent upon claiming the Christian church went 99.9999999999999% AWOL. No AWOL, no need for a restoration. Let's just say the Mormon church is very well invested in labeling us infidels from the faith -- just like Muslims do! (And you -- Mr. or Mrs. Christian Church Member -- thought your Lds neighbor or co-worker was your nice "pal" when underneath it all, you're just some peon unfaithful "apostate" to him or her!)

1 posted on 01/29/2011 7:01:36 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
3. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: According to the Manual...why did false doctrines begin to be taught and the true Church lost? No revelation or priesthood authority

Well, given that the current RC pope also says Protestant leaders don't have "authority" to administer the sacraments, I guess we can't be disproportionately hard on the Mormon church re: authority...except that I've yet to find a Mormon who can even tell me where their authority originates...After all, if they believe that their god was once a man, that means there was once a time when the Mormon god lacked any authority...so...where did he get it from? Shouldn't Mormons track that down and worship the original Originator of Mormon priesthood authority?

And if they can't identify from whence their authority comes, then how do they know the "true Church" was "lost"...and since the Bible claims that the Church is the bride of Christ, how can they say that Jesus "lost" His bride? What kind of a bridegroom loses His bride? What kind of accusations are they making about the true Christ -- and will not Christ hold them accountable for such faulty public accusations?

BTW, we have people like Marion G. Romney -- one of the highest three ranking Lds hierarchy-ists & the cousin of Mitt Romney's father -- who said in an official church magazine: God is a perfected, SAVED soul enjoying eternal life...He is enjoying that blessed condition which men may attain to by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
Source: How Men Are Saved

[Ah, the Mormon "gospel" of good works + temple rituals = godhood claim]

As for the Mormon claim that we have "no revelation" in the Christian church, may I remind them of this Scripture: In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son... (Hebrews 1:1-2) This Jesus is still the Head of the Body, His Christian church...He didn't lose His bride or abdicate His responsibility as Head and Lord; He's the Living Prophet of the Church on both sides of the veil -- and the Christian Church regards Him (not a substitute like the Mormons have done with their "prophets") as the (Ever) "Living Word!"

4 From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: ...what are...characteristics of the Great Apostasy? Lost...understanding of...nature of...Godhead, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost

Sorry, but I see the Christian church emphasizes God, God the Holy Spirit, repentance, and baptism, too...so what do Mormon leaders mean when they say Christians have gotten off-course on this?

Well, some Mormon leaders have treated the Holy Ghost as an "impersonal" spirit...but I don't think that's what they mean here...I'll dig more into that at another post..."Godhead" is Mormonese for substituting a word that can falsely convey to the public that they believe in a single God...a semi-Trinitarian conveyance that allows them to still call teaching the Trinity is a heresy! (What a fine-line walk Lds have to tow!)

As for baptism, this is funny given that Mormons claim that children under age 8 are perfect & innocent, yet somehow upon turning age 8, they need to undergo a baptism. (And what is one of the Mormon reasons for baptism? Yeah, that's right -- "remission of sins")

Yet if they were still perfect at age 7 and 364 days, what sins do they need to have remitted? (Oh, well, I stopped trying to figure out Mormon inconsistencies long ago...knowing all of them just revealed this religion was man-made, a counterfeit of Christianity).

2 posted on 01/29/2011 7:03:37 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
5. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: As stated by...Joseph F. Smith, what...greatest event...has ever occurred since the Lord's resurrection? The First Vision

Joseph F. Smith was the Lds "prophet" who died around World War I. So here the Lds church says that "greatest event...since the Lord's resurrection" is the appearing of two unnamed entities to a 14, 15, or 16 yo boy!!! [We don't know Smith's age for certain, 'cause he kept changing it depending upon which version of his account you read...In the official version, which was tabbed as "Scripture" by a later generation of Mormons, as Smith tells the story, he never mentions the names of the beings who appeared to him! Tell me, would you trust such an account from a pimply-faced teen boy who says unnamed entities appeared to him?]

Oh, and BTW, if this "First Vision" was "greatest event...since the Lord's resurrection," I guess that means the Mormon church considers it beating out both Jesus Christ's ascension to heaven and the Holy Spirit coming as an ongoing Presence to the people of God!

Leave it to the Mormon church to place a teen tall tales ahead of Bible-proportion events involving Jesus and the Holy Spirit!

6. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: T/F According to the Manual, we may never know all...detail about how the Prophet Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. True

Hmmm...can't wait to hear comments from other Inmans on this one!!!

3 posted on 01/29/2011 7:04:29 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
7. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: According to Elder...Wirthlin, what is heart of missionary proselyting? The Book of Mormon

Well, this is Mormons at their best telling the truth! This was actually a huge "inside" push by deceased Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie, who advised his Mormon clan to steer clear from discussing the Bible when sending missionaries out.

McConkie advised that the Mormon missionaries need to present what's "unique" about their new religion -- and, of course, given their bent for "testimonies," they need to inject feelings while presenting it. And so they ask a potential fall guy to pray about the Book of Mormon, & then rely upon their subjective "feelings" to somehow objectively evaluate the book!? But, of course, they don't show their "mark" the 1830 version of the book...a version which, almost 4,000 changes prior, clearly shows a roller coaster of backwoods bumpkin grammar & spelling bumping up against the majestic literary and perfect spelling quality of the King James Bible, which Smith stole for a dozen chapters word-for-word and for phrase after phrase elsewhere from the KJV.

Believe me, if I told you I had I found "revelations" from God collected in 1830...and you read it...and about 3% of what was written was word-for-word from a 1611 Bible...and an extremely higher % matched exact phrases from that 1611 Bible...and all that was written to match the perfect grammar, spelling, and literary quality of the 1611 Bible...and then if you noticed the rest of what was found was full of mispellings, bad grammar, contorted words, etc. I think you'd quickly get the picture who the true source wasn't re: those "revelations."

8. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: What did Elder...Wirthlin teach about conversion to the Book of Mormon and its importance in conversion? Conversion to the book is conversion to Christ

Wow! Here Jesus taught that knowing Him and knowing the true Father was eternal life (John 17:3). [You don't think Jesus would lie about this in a middle of a prayer to His Father, do you?] Yet Mormons reduce converting to Christ to essentially marrying a novel!

More evidence that the Mormon church has ramped up its open idolatry of substituting ahdering to mere man-made PAPER as their "lord" and "god" of guidance and sovereignty and who gets eternal life with God's presence and who doesn't.

So Book of Mormon adherence = a relationship with Christ?
And having a signed piece of paper (temple recommend) gets you into God's presence forever & you can also become a god?
And a piece of printed paper -- a calendar -- gets to determine who the next Lds "prophet" is -- because the most elderly of the Mormon eligibles automatically twists God's sovereign hand as to who will be the next "prophet?"

How does the power Mormon leaders assign to mere pieces of PAPER compare to how Jesus treated the all holy Bible -- which consists, of course of pieces of PAPER?

Even Jesus set the holiest pieces of PAPER in proper perspective when He said: 39(You) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of ME. (John 5:39)

IOW, even many people attending a Christian church abort the process. They search the Scriptures, thinking "in them" that they "have eternal life"....Yet Jesus said even the PAPERED Scriptures' purpose was to testify to HIM!!! (A testimony to a living relationship with the LIVING WORD, Jesus Christ). Jesus CANNOT be reduced to mere words about Him on pages. The LIVING WORD is to be encountered!

Do Lds see the very ritualism to which they've become attached?

4 posted on 01/29/2011 7:05:21 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
9. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: According to President Ezra Taft Benson, in handling objections to the Church, what is the only problem the objector has to resolve? Whether the Book of Mormon is true

You know when we evaluate a candidate for public office's claims, I'm sorry but we're not ONLY to evaluate one of that candidate's grandest truth claims as being true and make that our ONLY point of evaluation. For example, when I evaluated Mitt Romney in-depth, I didn't only evaluate his other-worldly truth claims, but his position on the issues, his intellect, his character, etc. (I found him to be high on intellect and low on social issues' flip-flopping). I spent a LOT of time evaluating what Romney said about the pre-born, about homosexual cultural issues, about healthcare, etc. Likewise, we should not only evaluate Jon Huntsman's Mormonism, but where he stands on the issues, his character, etc.

So...the fact that the Mormon church is trying to guide the prospect lke a needle through an extremely small space shows me one key thing: They don't want Lds prospects to evaluate the Book of Mormon based upon the character of its importer, Joseph Smith...
...Tale teller by age 17 per his mother, Lucy Mack Smith...
...Buried-treasure seeker at that time as well...
...Convicted glass looker (See Joseph Smith's 1826 Conviction -- where the "prisoner was brought before Court March 20, 1826 -- several years before brandishing his "Book of Mormon"...
...Member of the Methodist church in 1828 -- supposedly after the Lord told him all other churches were "wrong" (see The Mormon Prophet Attempts to Join the Methodists
...Seducer of 17 yo live-in servant by perhaps as early as 1831...who became Smith's first extra wife -- a fact hidden from wife Emma for years and years...
...User of religion to get a 14 yo daughter of an "apostle", Heber C. Kimball, to become a wife...Smith "settled" for her when her father, Heber wouldn't turn over his wife to Smith...(Smith "married" 11 already-married women...many of whom had husbands conveniently sent away on "missions")...

10. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: In Elder...Nelson's discussion of Heavenly Father's plan, what assures us a round trip ticket to our heavenly father's home? Death

Wow! (And here I thought Christ's death -- NOT our own -- paved the way for our one-way ticket to our heavenly Father's home! Silly me)

Btw, if the Mormon church doesn't clarify this, its already problematic male suicide rate for its less-active male adult membership might be tempted to take this literally!

5 posted on 01/29/2011 7:09:06 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
11. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: According to Elder...Wirthlin, how can we know if our faith is in harmony with the will of God? We must...heed the counsel of latter-day prophets...

Well, there ya go. All you non-Mormons not adhering to the Mormon "prophets," the Lds church declares you are ALL automatically outside of God's Will!

[And since I would say that 100% of Mormons are also outside of given Lds prophets' "counsel" on one thing or another...that means EVERYBODY is outside of the Mormon church's will!!...after all, how many Mormons follow Brigham Young's "counsel" that Adam is God or that you need to shed blood for certain sins 'cause Christ's blood doesn't cover those...otherwise known as "blood atonement"??...]

12. From the Mission Prep Final Terms' Test: President...Hunter said, "The __ are absolutely crucial; we CANNOT return to God's presence without them." Temple ordinances...

So Hunter, a brief Lds "prophet," said" that "temple ordinances" "are absolutely crucial" to the extent that "we CANNOT return to God's presence without them," eh? Hmm...well, that leaves out:
* The 80% or so of Mormons who don't have temple recommends...
* ALL Mormon children & many Lds young adults who die before getting their temple recommends...
* ALL Mormon never marrieds who may have a temple recommend but fail the Mormon god's "command" to get married...
* Apostate former Mormons who once upon a time had such temple recommends...
* And then 99.9% of the rest of the world that isn't even Mormon, let alone temple recommended!!!

So there ya go: Mormonism has just excluded the vast world pop from reuniting with Heavenly Father...because Mormon teaching says that even though many will be "saved" they define that as being cast into a place where God doesn't live!!! (That "celestial" ghetto is reserved for all the elite married temple-recommended Mormons who supposedly become "gods" just like God!)

6 posted on 01/29/2011 7:11:47 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
BTW...even on some of the questions not included in the excerpt above -- like the 31st question, for example, other Mormon leaders have said the exact opposite than what is cited there as "the answer."

So, beware and remember that the Lds church here has a given goal -- to brainwash its Mormon missionaries cram-style.

Therefore, on some of these questions, knowing that their missionaries are trying to hustle Christian proselytes, we can expect the chosen response might be one more closely approximating a more orthodox "Christian" view...and that other Mormon leader variations of that response would be snipped.

Such is Mormonism's ever-changing "truth."

7 posted on 01/29/2011 7:14:41 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

IB4PD


8 posted on 01/29/2011 7:21:22 AM PST by Imnidiot (THIS SPACE FOR RENT)
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To: Colofornian

Good Stuff!!!! Excellent!!!!


9 posted on 01/29/2011 7:32:05 AM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White)
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To: Colofornian
This answer alone makes me want to vomit: Conversion to the book is conversion to Christ
10 posted on 01/29/2011 7:47:40 AM PST by svcw (God doesn't show up in our time, but He shows up on time)
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To: Colofornian

Wow, that class hasn’t change much since I was in it almost 20 years ago!


11 posted on 01/29/2011 8:04:38 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: Colofornian

Great info..With all the TRUTH out there on the internet, if it doesn’t put a dent in the foundation which is Mormonism, I fear nothing will. I continue to pray for LDS everyday. I am a Christian. Mormons are not Christians.


12 posted on 01/29/2011 8:11:21 AM PST by PeachyKeen
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To: Colofornian

First Vision

Which version one must ask. The current ‘official’ version - not written by smith, or the 7-8 others that smith gave/wrote. Interesting point - they contradict each other in multiple key areas.

But the world wouldn’t have found out if it wasn’t for the Tanners IIRC who exposed the existence of theses other versions to the rest of the world and out of the vaults of lds inc.


13 posted on 01/29/2011 8:11:36 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Colofornian

IB4PD and PDSPAM

I just posted this to him: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2665153/posts?page=24#24


14 posted on 01/29/2011 8:16:57 AM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: SZonian

In before the Link Spammer who uses Non-Official Moronic Links


15 posted on 01/29/2011 9:03:38 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: All
Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.  

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Some of them claim being some sort of special witness to you as being supposedly former Mormons. So someone who is an ex-member of any organization would never have an axe to grind or have reason to try to justify their actions by any means? Perhaps not but perhaps so. The LDS Church gains members from other denominations as well as others faiths all the time. This doesn't make them an expert on anything and you certainly won't hear them attacking their former Church.

Frequently they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, quote and straw man attack that. Almost without fail you will see examples of this following this post.

Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think. So again, seek the truth. They aren't providing it. Use your God-given brain and discernment.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address or answer our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you? They often state that these sites provide no answer. They just don't want you looking. It is as simple as that.

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

 


16 posted on 01/29/2011 9:24:16 AM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender

I’m sorry,PD, but after copious amounts of information showing and exposing Mormonism for what it is.. I have to LOL!
Praying for all LDS.


17 posted on 01/29/2011 9:29:52 AM PST by PeachyKeen
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To: Colofornian
Photobucket
18 posted on 01/29/2011 9:37:15 AM PST by dragonblustar ("... and if you disagree with me, then you sir, are worse than Hitler!" - Greg Gutfeld)
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To: dragonblustar
Photobucket
19 posted on 01/29/2011 9:38:24 AM PST by dragonblustar ("... and if you disagree with me, then you sir, are worse than Hitler!" - Greg Gutfeld)
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To: dragonblustar
Photobucket

No Nephites or Lamanites ever existed.

The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. If you want to find Jesus, read the Bible and don't be fooled by Mormonism!

20 posted on 01/29/2011 9:45:01 AM PST by dragonblustar ("... and if you disagree with me, then you sir, are worse than Hitler!" - Greg Gutfeld)
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To: Paragon Defender; All

They do the same with Catholics. While I don’t believe in your Temple one iota it is important that we all stand united from a political/traditional standpoint. The “planners” have infiltrated your house of worship along with ours and every other organized religion which includes the churches of ALL here. These planners don’t like organizations because we have strong groups/congregations - take that away and we’re standing alone with a very weak voice vulnerable to their orders. It’s why they attacked the family units, communities...with great success. As a Catholic I fight the parasitic infiltrators daily...we all need to do the same and not pretend that their specific church or temple is perfect.


21 posted on 01/29/2011 12:21:03 PM PST by bronxville
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To: bronxville; Paragon Defender; All
While I don’t believe in your Temple one iota it is important that we all stand united from a political/traditional standpoint.

Have you written then to Salt Lake City & asked the Mormon leaders to stop calling ALL Christian -- Protestant & Catholic churches -- "apostates?"

Have you asked them to stop referencing ALL of our creeds as an "abomination" to God?

Have you asked them to stop referencing ALL professing believers outside of their church as "corrupt?"

Here...I encourage you to broaden your homework horizon before you speak...Google "Joseph Smith - History" and read vv. 18-20 re: the name-calling that Mormons now say is "Bible-level."

As for "uniting" I could probably guess that the folks who the apostle Paul warned the church @ Ephesus about had the bulk in common with the sheep there. Both groups were "religious." So, did Paul play the "allies"-game-don't-divide-us-you're playing? (No)

As Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves! Unlike your "fight" against "the parasitic infiltrators daily" -- whoever they are -- the apostle Paul wasn't pretending that the church at Ephesus he was leaving wasn't "perfect," he adamantly didn't want savage false wolves who "distort the truth" devouring the sheep)

Tell us something, Bronxville: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"

22 posted on 01/29/2011 12:55:31 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: bronxville

Do you have ANY idea what your church teaches about the Mormons?

Because Catholicism doesn’t like them either.

And while I consider Catholics to be my brothers and sisters in Christ, I also know that Mormons are not.

BTW, I used to be Mormon.


23 posted on 01/29/2011 3:22:08 PM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is its own worst enemy.)
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To: reaganaut

Hi Reaganaut..How long have you been out of Mormonism? Is your exit story somewhere on line? I would like to read it, if it is.

Thank you.


24 posted on 01/29/2011 3:35:57 PM PST by PeachyKeen
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To: Colofornian; All

Have you written then to Salt Lake City & asked the Mormon leaders to stop calling ALL Christian — Protestant & Catholic churches — “apostates?”

Have you asked them to stop referencing ALL of our creeds as an “abomination” to God?

Have you asked them to stop referencing ALL professing believers outside of their church as “corrupt?”


Why would we stop quoting God? Your non-issues are all addressed at the links I have provided by the way.


25 posted on 01/29/2011 3:50:00 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: PeachyKeen

I’m sorry,PD, but after copious amounts of propaganda showing and exposing not a thing yet.


There fixed that for ya.


26 posted on 01/29/2011 3:54:04 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided

27 posted on 01/29/2011 4:07:26 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: T Minus Four

Thank you for proving one of my points. Out of context much? Why yes.

Thanks again!


28 posted on 01/29/2011 4:09:41 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender

Oh I see - so GOD said that all other creeds other than the Mormon one are an abomination to Him?

THat’s some “non=issue” dude.


29 posted on 01/29/2011 4:10:23 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: Paragon Defender
I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight .... He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith 2:18-20).
30 posted on 01/29/2011 4:12:42 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: Paragon Defender

Out of context? You have no context, LOL!


31 posted on 01/29/2011 4:14:31 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: Paragon Defender

“I’m sorry,PD, but after copious amounts of propaganda showing and exposing not a thing yet.


There fixed that for ya.”

PD, you didn’t “fix” anything. Mormonism IS being exposed for what it is and you can’t change that.


32 posted on 01/29/2011 4:31:38 PM PST by PeachyKeen
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To: Paragon Defender

Hey PD, still waiting for you not to be ashamed and tell me if you are PERFECT yet as Jesus commanded.


33 posted on 01/29/2011 4:45:27 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

Are you? DO you try?


34 posted on 01/29/2011 4:53:26 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender

Like I said before - I’ll state whether or not I am after you. Why do you equivocate PD, isn’t that testimony of perfection strong enough?

Once again, are you PERFECT as Jesus commanded in Mt 5?


35 posted on 01/29/2011 4:57:09 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

I really don’t want to get in trouble again for “mind-reading” so I won’t say that you know the answer so I know you are just playing a silly anti-Mormon game. Nope won’t say that.

Sorry! Grab a blankie and some hot chocolate!


36 posted on 01/29/2011 5:01:34 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender
I really don’t want to get in trouble again for “mind-reading” so I won’t say that you know the answer so I know you are just playing a silly anti-Mormon game. Nope won’t say that.

Remarkable - perhaps you should rename yourself as paranoid pretended PD. But never the less,I ask the question - are you PERFECT? You claim Jesus left this as a commandment and that as a mormon this proves your restored gospel is restored (at least thats what your sources say). So are you, as a mormon, PERFECT?

37 posted on 01/29/2011 5:17:33 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
In before the Link Spammer who uses Non-Official Moronic Links

By the skin of your teeth!


Speak of the DEVIL, and he shall appear!

38 posted on 01/29/2011 5:28:35 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paragon Defender
Why would we stop quoting God?

Nice question: here's another:

Why do MORMONs continue to QUOTE some UNNAMED Personage?


 
 


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. 
 

39 posted on 01/29/2011 5:33:08 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paragon Defender
I really don’t want to get in trouble again for “mind-reading” so I won’t say that you know the answer so I know you are just playing a silly anti-Mormon game.

You ARE allowed to READ your OWN mind.

40 posted on 01/29/2011 5:34:45 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paragon Defender
 

Are THESE on Flash Cards as well?
 



Mormon Missionary Rules

  1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
  2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
  3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
  4. Don't debate or argue.
  5. Center your mind on your mission.
  6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees.  No floor-length skirts or dresses.
  7. Cut your hair regularly.
  8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
  9. Be neat and clean.
  10. Bathe frequently.
  11. Use deodorant.
  12. Polish your shoes.
  13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
  14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
  15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
  16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
  17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
  18. Exercise regularly.
  19. Write in your journal regularly.
  20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
  21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
  22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
  23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
  24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
  25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
  26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
  27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
  28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
  29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
  30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
  31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
  32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
  33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
  34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
  35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
  36. Do not go on road trips.
  37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission ("District leaders must approve travel outside your area within the district; zone leaders must approve travel outside your district within the zone; and the mission president must approve travel outside the zone.")
  38. Do not watch television.
  39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
  40. Do not listen to the radio.
  41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
  42. Do not participate in musical groups.
  43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
  44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
  45. Do not engage in contact sports.
  46. Do not engage in water sports.
  47. Do not engage in winter sports.
  48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
  49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
  50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
  51. Do not embark on a private boat.
  52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
  53. Do not handle firearms.
  54. Do not handle explosives.
  55. Do not swim.
  56. Do not play full court basketball.
  57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
  58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
  59. You may play half-court basketball.
  60. Never be alone.
  61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
  62. Be loyal to your companion.
  63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
  64. Pray with your companion every day.
  65. Study with your companion every day.
  66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
  67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
  68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
  69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
  70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
  71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
  72. Do not arise before your companion.
  73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
  74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
  75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
  76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
  77. Do not flirt.
  78. Do not date.
  79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
  80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
  81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
  82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
  83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
  84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
  85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
  86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
  87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
  88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
  89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
  90. Do not telephone parents (in some areas, the mission president will make an exception to this rule and will allow 2 phone calls per year: one on Christmas and one on Mother's day.  But the actual rule in the handbook does not give any exceptions.  In my mission, the mission president affirmed that the rule in the handbook is unambiguous: Don't telephone your parents, no exceptions).
  91. Do not telephone relatives.
  92. Do not telephone friends.
  93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
  94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
  95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
  96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president (There are no checks, balances, or appeals when it comes to the authority of the mission president).
  97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert (I have to wonder, isn't it intrinsically disrespectful to their customs and traditions when your purpose for engaging them is to convert them from their customs and traditions and to yours?)
  98. Obey all mission rules.
  99. Obey the laws of the land.
  100. Do not get involved in politics.
  101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
  102. Do not give any information about the area.
  103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
  104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
  105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
  106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
  107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
  108. Be courteous.
  109. Provide community service.
  110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
  111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
  112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
  113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
  114. Keep your housing unit clean.
  115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
  116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
  117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
  118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
  119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
  120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators. (I wonder if this is because prayer and fasting doesn't cause strangers to convert and consequently proves to be a faith-demoting experience).
  121. Maintain your health.
  122. Eat a healthy diet.
  123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
  124. Follow the approved exercise program.
  125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
  126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
  127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
  128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
  129. Be immunized.
  130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
  131. Budget your money carefully.
  132. Keep a record of what you spend.
  133. Do not spend more than your companion.
  134. Do not loan money.
  135. Do not borrow money.
  136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
  137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
  138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
  139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
  140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
  141. Be a frugal photographer.
  142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
  143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
  144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
  145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
  146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
  147. Do not drive without a license.
  148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
  149. Do not drive members’ cars.
  150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
  151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.  (A few investigators have asked me why the missionaries are reluctant to offer them a ride to church.  The answer: giving rides is against the rules).
  152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
  153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
  154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
  155. Drive defensively.
  156. Wear your seat belt.
  157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving. 
  158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
  159. Do not tamper with the vehicles odometer.
  160. Know bicycle safety rules.
  161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
  162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
  163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
  164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
  165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
  166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
  167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.


Conclusion:

The Mormon Scriptures teach that the purpose of life is a test to see if we will do everything that God commands us to (Abraham 3:25).  Once we get pretty advanced in the game God might push the envelope on this and command us to do something totally bizarre and immoral such as killing our children (Genesis 22:2), but most of us never reach that level.

The Mormon missionary is given innumerable opportunities every day to show God that he will obeyThe missionary's life is defined by rules.  The rules dictate who he will be with, what he does with each hour of the week, which books he may read, and that he won't receive information about the world through radio, TV, newspapers, magazines, or the Internet.  And he is assigned a vigilante to follow him around 24-7 to make sure he obeys.  A church video about missionary life has a scene depicting a missionary reading the newspaper.  That missionary was breaking the rules.

Last night, my wife saw me reading the Missionary Guide.  It brought back all sorts of nasty memories from her mission and she said I must be a masochist for reading it.  I laughed at that, but now I'm wondering if she had a point--just thinking about the mission rules is painful to me.  As a missionary, I felt that the mission, God's church, and ultimately God himself despised individuality and freedom.  My efforts to obey the mission rules resulted in immeasurable amounts of emotional and physical pain.  I have had Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis since I was a child, and it was impossible to take care of my body and obey the missionary rules.  So, I tortured my body throughout my mission, and abused it to the point where I literally couldn't stand, much less walk.

The mission rules caused my body permanent damage, and did serious damage to my emotional health--I've been home for over 10 years and apparently I still haven't completely recovered.

The above are the rules from The Missionary Handbook (commonly known as the "White Bible").  It is a little booklet that the missionaries carry in their shirt pocket.  There are many rules the missionary is subjected to that aren't in the White Bible, but these are the basics. I am frequently asked if I am serious about these rules.  The answer is yes.  A few parenthetical comments have been added.

As you think about these rules, it is worth also considering psychologist Steven Hassan's BITE model.  Hassan asserts that if a group passes a certain threshold of manipulating its members behaviors, thoughts, emotions, and access to information, the group is rightly categorized as a cult and is exercising destructive mind control.  You can read about his model here.  You may decide for yourself if such manipulation exists, if it is harmful, and whether or not the Mormon missionary experience is a good example of this phenomenon.  Here is a site that brings the BITE model to bear on the Mormon missionary program.

 



(From --> http://www.lds4u.com/Missionaries/rules.htm )


41 posted on 01/29/2011 5:37:18 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paragon Defender; All
Why would we stop quoting God?

Ah, rerun from 3.5 months ago, eh, PD?

Back then you said the essential same thing: Again. God said it. Not Joseph Smith. You have a problem with God? [Source of quote @ link below]

I'm going to pull out how I responded back then -- but interject it a bit with newer comments [see bold-faced bracketed comments below].

The reason why I added some comments not only fits in perfectly to what PD reiterated yet again in this thread, but I wanted to also address how that all fits in based upon one of the leading Lds payroll apologists Daniel C. Peterson -- and what Peterson said this week in a Mormon Times piece. In fact, I'll just start out with the Peterson excerpt I want to reference, respond to it briefly, & then refer back to it in quotes to intermingle it [in bold-faced brackets] w/my comments back from Oct. 10:

Peterson: When Joseph Smith learned that the then-existing Christian churches were corrupt, that didn't mean that they were totally wrong. To say that something is "corrupt" means that it has been damaged. We speak of "corrupted texts" or "corrupted files," intending to say that they have been infected or tainted — not that their original content has been replaced by something completely different.In fact, many mainstream Christian doctrines were and are substantially correct. There is indeed a God. He has a divine Son who came to earth, atoned for our sins, rose again on the third day and now sits at the right hand of his Father. Those who taught prayer, preached of the Savior and translated the New Testament during the centuries between the early apostles and the Restoration preserved and transmitted many central gospel truths. (Source: http://www.mormontimes.com/article/19481/Gods-sheep-recognize-his-voice Mormon Times, Jan. 27, 2011 "God's sheep recognize his voice")

[Note #1: A shrewd apologist attempting to dart around something won't cite the most problematic, objectionable comment. They'll ignore it. Hence, when Peterson was responding here to critiques about the "First Vision" comments in vv. 18-20 of Joseph Smith - History, note that Peterson shies 100% away from Smith's comments that ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight (v. 19). What's interesting is how do you go from Smith's comments in the "First Vision" about "ALL their creeds"-->Peterson claiming that "many mainstream Christian doctrines were and are substantially correct" and "Those who taught prayer, preached of the Savior and translated the New Testament during the centuries between the early apostles and the Restoration preserved and transmitted many central gospel truths."]

[How does Peterson try to dodge Smith's nucleur attack? He ignores the word "creeds"; he ignores the word "abomination"; he instead focuses on the part in v. 19 where Smith said "those professors were ALL corrupt" and then tries to maneuver out of it with his "corrupt text" and "corrupt file" analogy.]

So, how do we address Paragon Defender's claim that Smith was a mere "God quoter" & "God" -- not Smith -- said what's in that First Vision?

My October comments -- From Here to Eternity: Of Mormons and Celestial Marriage [with a few new comments in bold-faced brackets included] :

No. Mormons are saying it. Contemporary Mormons. All on the word of what a pimply-faced 14-yo boy said he saw & heard. You really think that barely teen-age BOY Joey Smith was able to take in an assessment that said 100% of Christianity's creeds were an "abomination" to this being?

Have you ever thought about putting 2 & 2 together? About an "angel of light" appearing & proclaiming "another gospel" (what the apostle Paul prophesied about in Galatians 1:6-8)
-- and the reality that ONLY SATAN or a demon would announce that 100% of Christianity's creeds were an outright 'abomination' to him???

[Note the Mormon progression...from Smith in the 1820s claiming that 100% of Christianity's creeds were an outright "abomination" -- to almost 200 years later as mainstream of an Lds apologist (Peterson) as you can get claiming that "many mainstream Christian doctrines were and are substantially correct" and "Those who taught prayer, preached of the Savior and translated the New Testament during the centuries between the early apostles and the Restoration preserved and transmitted many central gospel truths."]

[IOW, even Peterson realizes that Smith overstepped himself, stepped in a fresh pile full of manure & other animal excrement, & there's just no way Peterson & many contemporary Mormons are going to allow Smith's "ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight" to be even acknowledged to Smith's incessant front-door knocking, let alone let that comment into "household" discussion! Even Peterson seems to give a head-nod that such slander is vulgar, inhospitable talk; that perhaps only Satan or a demon would denouce 100% of Christianity's creeds as being outright abominable to him!]

[But what about Paragon Defender? Does he likewise back off and follow Peterson's lead apologetic role as a "good Mormon defender" should do? Not on your life. Paragon Offender instead finds the biggest catapult he can find & the biggest "pile" he can find & proceeds to launch himself straight into it!!! Why, Paragon Defender doesn't seem to mind at all the excrement-covered feet of Joseph Smith running loose throughout his household? Why just look how "hospitable" PD is to Smith...PD directly addressed my #22 comment, Have you asked them to stop referencing ALL of our creeds as an “abomination” to God? in post #25 by saying, "Why should we stop quoting God?" PD doesn't seem to mind at all the tag of being in open league & alignment with what the demons & Satan would surmise about Christianity!]

["Congrats" PD...The most mainstream Mormon apologists are leaving your smelly inhospitable habitat & heading for higher ground...leaving the likes of you to hold the "clean-up" mop of Smith's desecrating footsteps!]

...Picking up Oct. 10 comments:

(..even a Mormon wouldn't say The Apostles Creed was an "abomination" to him or her, let alone God!!!)

I challenge YOU, EVERY MORMON APOLOGIST, EVERY MORMON LEADER, AND EVERY MORMON GRASSROOTS PERSON to do two things in this regard -- in fairness & in consideration of the millions of $ of slander you put out about the Christian church every day!

What are those two measely things I ask you & other Mormons to do?

#1 Please review the Apostles Creed

Now why do I challenge you and other Mormons on this? Because Christians in 1820 only embraced a few universal creeds within the church. The Nicene Creed. The Apostles Creed.

And I've read The Apostles Creed with "Mormon eyes." I've looked for what might be objectionable to a Mormon in that creed and can't find it. (Caveat: Please note that the word "catholic" in that creed did not = the formal Roman Catholic church; it only meant at the time universal)

Now why is this important? Because if Mormons CANNOT pinpoint what is so abominable about this creed, then the personage who spoke to Smith wasn't God or Jesus Christ. Because God or Jesus Christ would not speak a falsehood.

So, I beg of you to read it: And as you read it, if you cannot find in it that which God would label it as an "abomination," you know then, that the statement within the First Vision was no better than even from a Mormon point of view to be a "half truth"...and God and Jesus are given to stating "half truths."

#2 Reread the First Vision of Joseph Smith.

Go to vv. 16-25 of Joseph Smith History, Pearl of Great Price. Now tell me anywhere in those passages where these "Personages" are identified as either "God" or "Jesus."

Go, ahead. You said, "God said it...You have a problem with God?" Well, surely since I referenced what this entity said in v. 19 there MUST be some attribution to "God" if He said it.

Is His (or Jesus') Name in v. 19?
No? Well, maybe 14 yo Joey set it up in v. 18?
What? Not there either?
v. 17?
v. 16?
Well, let's look after v. 19.
v. 20?
v. 21?
v. 22?
v. 23?
v. 24?
v. 25?

Where is the SOURCE for you to claim that "God" said it?

Let's review what Joe said he felt and saw and heard:

v. 16:
Felt
Saw a pillar of light

v. 17:
“the light”
“two Personages” brightness & glory defy all description
a son of the other
v. 18:
“the Personages”

v. 19:
“the Personage”

v. 20:
“the light”

v. 24:
“a light” “heard a voice”

v. 25:
“a light” “two Personages”

But Paragon. You said you thoroughly investigated Mormonism before you joined!

Yet you NEVER knew these entities deliberately avoided identifying themselves as either God or Jesus?

Do I have to be the one who breaks the news to you that being "a son" of another unnamed being/personage (v. 17) doesn't equate to being Jesus?

Do I have to be the one pointing out to you that these entities are "no names" -- identityless -- per the vision account?

PD, you were sold a bill of goods that are valueless. And that to me is absolutely heart-breaking.

42 posted on 01/29/2011 5:46:39 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Paragon Defender
Hey PD....I got an easy one for you....

Are you righteous in Christ Jesus, right now?

43 posted on 01/29/2011 6:02:22 PM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: Colofornian
More of Paul's "priorities":

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies.

Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.

He wrote these things in his first letter to Timothy, a young CHRISTIAN pastor whom he had mentored.

I assure you, the early Christians were not engaging in "dead dunking".

44 posted on 01/29/2011 6:32:54 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: Elsie

What do you suppose happened that compelled them to prohibit tampering with odometers?

Or playing full court basketball?

(You know, this is why we can’t have nice things!)


45 posted on 01/29/2011 6:42:18 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: Colofornian; reaganaut

At the end of the sentence I wrote that I was speaking from a political and [constitutional] traditional point, iow, not religious.

My knowledge on Mormonism consists of meeting them in Europe where I grew up. They would come knocking on the door, before they got to show their book, my beautiful Catholic mother (RIP) would ask them if they were hungry, the answer was usually an affirmative, she’d feed them and off they’d go warm and content. I guess that was her witness along with the Sacred Heart picture on the wall, Holy Bible on the shelf, Crucifix’, rosary beads, statue of the Blessed Mother and St. Martin of whom she was fond, a holy water font at the door...you get my drift. :) I don’t know what their witness was except perhaps that they’d traveled a long way to try and convert us. I’ve since lived in Utah for a winter for the skiing - learned some things they believed - debated - tried to convert each other but w/ a negative result. I found it a little cult-like.

I have read about their Masonic rituals and have found most of them innocuous but would add that Mitt Romney (and guess many others within) are of a higher degree of Masonry. What I find most interesting is that there were very few temples until the age of aquarius sixties - after that time there’s been a proliferation of at least one temple in every major city in the world...another interesting point is that their first temple in Ohio had none of the rituals nor masonic symbols as all their temples have since...(this is around the time the “planners” made their move) -
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/temples.htm

The picture within, use link above, reminds me of the outfit Obama wore when he was in Kenya...
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/m1-sign.jpg

The parasitic infiltrations I was talking about are the high degree Masons and their “useless idiots/eaters” who’ve infiltrated ALL churches in order to change them - consider the Anglicans/Epis., consider my own church, and consider your own though if you attend a decentralized church you might not notice. Anyway my point is that the Mormons are no different from that point of view.

Most Mormons are well meaning in their belief systems though certainly in grave error. I still stand by my “unite” statement, as in, the POLITICAL arena.

Charis kai eirene (Grace and Peace)


46 posted on 01/29/2011 6:52:04 PM PST by bronxville
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To: Colofornian

Why would we stop quoting God?

Ah, rerun from 3.5 months ago, eh, PD?

Back then you said the essential same thing: Again. God said it. Not Joseph Smith. You have a problem with God? [Source of quote @ link below]

I’m going to pull out how I responded back then — but interject it a bit with newer comments


And in 3.5 more months we can do it again. And you can pretty up your propaganda with more blabber and make it twice as long. It won’t change the truth. It won’t change the facts. God said it whether you like it or not. Whether you accept it or whether you understand it or not.


47 posted on 01/29/2011 7:17:11 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Elsie
You ARE allowed to READ your OWN mind.

LOL! Exactly!

48 posted on 01/29/2011 8:33:29 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: Paragon Defender
And in 3.5 more months we can do it again. And you can pretty up your propaganda with more blabber and make it twice as long. It won’t change the truth. It won’t change the facts. God said it whether you like it or not. Whether you accept it or whether you understand it or not.

(And yet you -- or any Mormon can't identify one abominable thing in the Apostles Creed...meaning if there's nothin' abominable about it...then Smith's overreach is labeling "ALL" creeds as "abominable" registers him as a certified false prophet...and you and a certified false propagator...)

Your belief in the First Vision is tantamount to receiving an unaddressed, unpostmarked letter whom you know who sent it -- a particular man -- yet you conjure up some image of the "North pole" or wherever -- because you refuse to disbelieve in Santa Claus.

There's no "return" address to the comments in vv. 16-25, PD. No name even. The two entities left no calling card. It's all a void, which you avoid.

49 posted on 01/29/2011 8:52:12 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Osage Orange; Paragon Defender
Hey PD....I got an easy one for you.... Are you righteous in Christ Jesus, right now?

Well Osage, I've asked him a simple one too - was he PERFECT.

50 posted on 01/29/2011 9:09:04 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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