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Young Benedict questioned priestly celibacy
CathBlog ^ | January 31, 2011 | MICHAEL MULLINS

Posted on 01/30/2011 2:01:52 PM PST by Alex Murphy

The London Catholic Herald blogger Anna Arco blogs the news that Pope Benedict XVI “called for the Church to investigate priestly celibacy”, in 1970 when he was a young priest.

She notes a German newspaper report that he signed a petition that suggested the Church re-examine the obligation of priestly celibacy.

The memorandum was drawn up in the face of a shortage of priests and other signatories included Karl Rahner and the future cardinals Karl Lehmann and Walter Kasper.

If there weren’t enough priests, the document said, then the “Church quite simply has a responsibility to take up certain modifications”.

The blog points out that the document’s release coincides with a renewed debate on priestly celibacy after prominent German politicians called for the Church to change the teaching on priestly celibacy in the face of a serious lack of priests.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: celibacy; inaccurateheadline
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The London Catholic Herald blogger Anna Arco blogs the news that Pope Benedict XVI “called for the Church to investigate priestly celibacy”, in 1970 when he was a young priest....If there weren’t enough priests, the document said, then the “Church quite simply has a responsibility to take up certain modifications”.
1 posted on 01/30/2011 2:01:56 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

i NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHY PRIESTS HAD TO BE CELIBATE


2 posted on 01/30/2011 2:05:15 PM PST by Mr. K (Empty, Stupid Happy Talk is NOT 'Reaganesque'!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Yes, the young Fr. Ratzinger was involved with many of the people who brought us Vatican II. But unlike Karl Rahner, who at best walked along the brink of the cliff of orthodoxy, if he didn’t fall off, Ratzinger asked questions but then came down on the right side.

I’ve read quite a bit of his earlier theological writings, and they are excellent. And orthodox.


3 posted on 01/30/2011 2:08:35 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Alex Murphy

That Ratzinger was more liberal in his youth is not news.


4 posted on 01/30/2011 2:11:38 PM PST by Scotswife
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To: Mr. K

Tradition.


5 posted on 01/30/2011 2:27:18 PM PST by Brilliant
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To: Mr. K

Tradition. From the earliest times, Christianity was always more ascetic than the strain of Judaism that evolved into orthodox Judaism after the Destruction of the Temple. Virginity was prized above marriage. Unlike Judaism, which stopped proselytizing by the 2nd Century, Christianity increased its numbers mainly by conversion. And until the 3rd century, Christianity were still much excited by the expected Return of the Lord. The that was relayed, many Christians turned away from ordinary pursuits and in the late 3rd Century, the monastic movement began. The idea of living the same kind of life that Our Lord did during his ministry, and which was copied by the Apostles, had always been attractive. Now it became the beau ideal of the Christian life, the way to sanctity For more than 1000 years it remained that way, until the Reformation which had a very different view, one reflecting a rejection of monasticism. The monk was no longer the ideal Christian, but rather the scholar of the Bible, and the layman. The Protestant minister is not a priest but simply a layman appointed by a congregation to perform a certain function, something like a eucharistic minister/lector/cantor/business manager in a Catholic Church.


6 posted on 01/30/2011 3:07:58 PM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Mr. K

Why?

Because when the telephone rings at 3am asking for the priest to come over and give last rites, he doesn’t have to worry about waking his family up or if he’ll be back to drive his children to school.

Because he doesn’t have to think about his family when he is asked to go to another parish.

Because he doesn’t have to come home at 6pm to have dinner and then help his children with homework.

Because it’s not a job, it’s a vocation.

Because his sacrifice is an outward sign of his devotion to God and to God’s people.

Because he not a father to just his family, he’s the father to us all.


7 posted on 01/30/2011 3:41:30 PM PST by PanzerKardinal (Some things are so idiotic only an intellectual would believe it.)
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To: Alex Murphy
The young Joseph Ratzinger held opinions that were much more liberal than those of the older-and-wiser Pope Benedict. This drastic shift midway through his life is no secret - it has come up in a number of interviews.

This is a non-story acting as a stealth attack on priestly celibacy.

8 posted on 01/30/2011 3:44:37 PM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: PanzerKardinal

I totally agree.

But it ensures that the priesthood is a haven for gays. It almost always has been.


9 posted on 01/30/2011 3:48:33 PM PST by BunnySlippers (I love BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: BunnySlippers
But it ensures that the priesthood is a haven for gays. It almost always has been.

That's no reason to avoid a celibate priesthood.

Rather, it is a reason to reject men who lack the qualities necessary to become a good fathers. The qualities required for natural fatherhood and supernatural fatherhood are the same. Gays lack those qualities... and some heterosexual men do too... and that renders them unfit for priesthood.

10 posted on 01/30/2011 4:00:53 PM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: GCC Catholic

I totally agree. I back a celibate clergy.

How do you get rid of the gays? And, the priesthood has dwindled to a trickle. It will get much, much smaller.


11 posted on 01/30/2011 4:11:45 PM PST by BunnySlippers (I love BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: PanzerKardinal

add another reason the a Would a Parish want to support a priest wife and children?

It should remember that celibacy is a discipline and could be changed or suspended If the Church felt it was necessary.

No Woman priest that is Dogma and can not be change


12 posted on 01/30/2011 4:13:46 PM PST by jroneil (Cut government in 1/2)
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To: GCC Catholic

My question has two parts:

The first is what sort of methods the church uses to screen out unfit men.

The second is why not have the option of allowing married men to the priesthood as long as they have no minor children.


13 posted on 01/30/2011 4:15:51 PM PST by TheDingoAteMyBaby
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To: Mr. K

Because the church has lost a lot of its way and they are mechanically applying what Jesus was. Many of the apostles had families , I am sure. What that rule has done is devastate the church by attracting many homosexuals to the priesthood.


14 posted on 01/30/2011 4:19:35 PM PST by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo in laughter")
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To: Cicero
the young Fr. Ratzinger was involved with many of the people who brought us Vatican II.

In the excellent book about V-II "The Desolate City" by Anne Roche Muggeridge, Ratzinger is mentioned as one of the advisers for the German reformers at the council. By the end, however, the author notes that he realized that a huge mistake has been made. I don't know what exactly changed his mind but I would love to ask him.

Considering his early association with Hans Küng and Edward Schillebeeckx it is hard to believe he has become the man he is today.

15 posted on 01/30/2011 4:32:54 PM PST by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Alex Murphy

There use to be a tradition in large Catholic families that one son went off to the priesthood or a daughter to the nunnery. I had a great uncle who was the youngest son. After everyone else married, he was told to join the priesthood. He didn’t really want to but did so to please his parents. Well, about six months later, his girlfriend showed up at the monastery. Let’s just say she was definitely in a “motherhood way”. After some lively discussion, the monsignor and my great uncle figured out that priesthood wasn’t for him. My great uncle married within the week. I wish I had been able to be a fly on the wall during the lively discussion. Just a thought.


16 posted on 01/30/2011 4:40:38 PM PST by momtothree
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To: Alex Murphy

I don’t see anything in scripture that says a priest/rabbi/leader of the church should be celibate. Paul talks about his celibate life, how he doesn’t have a family to worry about, but he goes on to say that people should marry if they couldn’t remain celibate.

“Be fruitful and multiply the earth.”
“It is not good that man should be alone.”
St. Paul’s advice to Timothy calling the forbidding of marriage a “doctrine of devils”.

All of the patriarchs were married.

To say that a priest can better serve the Lord if he’s unmarried doesn’t make sense. If priests were married, the majority of their children would grow up with a strong faith in God. It really hurts the Lord’s work when committed Christians don’t have children.

Marriage hasn’t stopped Billy Graham, Bill Bright, and countless others from serving the Lord.


17 posted on 01/30/2011 4:45:36 PM PST by Joyell
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To: Mr. K
This might help your education in that matter:

Has the Time Come to Consider Making Celibacy Truly Optional In the Western Church?
Catholic Scandals: A Crisis for Celibacy?
Celibacy of the priesthood is a church strength, not a liability
Celibacy s history of power and money

Pope: Priests Must Stay Celibate
Giving Thanks for the Good Shepherds ( A Defense of Priestly Celibacy)
Don't end celibacy for priests
The celibate superhero
Priestly Celibacy And Its Roots In Christ

How to Refute Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy
Priestly Celibacy Reflects Who - and Whose - We Are[Father George W.Rutler]
Celibacy
Tracing the Glorious Origins of Celibacy
God’s call to celibacy for the sake of His Kingdom - by Card. George

Vatican Says Celibacy Rule Nonnegotiable
Bishop Attacks Move to End Celibacy
A response to Fr. Joseph Wilson's defense of mandatory celibacy
The gift of Priestly celibacy as a sign of the charity of Christ, by Mother Teresa of Calcutta
Archbishop Dolan:"We Need to Be Renewing Our Pledge to Celibacy, Not Questioning It"

Celibacy is gift cherished by church
Celibacy Will Save the Priesthood
Celibacy Defended by EWTN's Fr. Levis
Call To Action: Dump Celibacy
The (Catholic) Church Has Always Prospered When Celibacy Is Honored

John Paul II Hails "Inestimable Value" of Priestly Celibacy
For Priests, Celibacy Is Not the Problem
Fr. Shannon Collins Discusses Celibacy
5 Arguments Against (Catholic) Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them
Why A Married Priesthood Won't Remedy the Priest Shortage

New Vatican Document on Homosexuality and the Priesthood Coming Before Fall 2005
Catholic priests demand the right to marry
Catholic priests urge Church to reconsider celibacy rules
Alternative Priests´ Council Hits Back on Mandatory Celibacy
Married Priests? The English Experience

Saying Yes to God: a Look into Vocations
New Vatican Document to Eliminate 1961 Papal Ban on Ordaining Homosexuals
Saying Yes to God: a Look into Vocations
Is it time to ordain married men to the Catholic priesthood?
40% of Scots priests want end to celibacy

A small, sturdy band of 'John Paul priests'(JPII legacy of conservative priests)
Yes, Gay Men Should Be Ordained
Cardinal says Priests will marry
Fathers, Husbands and Rebels: Married Priests
An Unneeded Headache (Vatican document on [NOT] admitting homosexual to the priesthood)
More (Priestly) Celibacy, Not Less

Vatican Prepares Draft Directives Against Admitting Gays as Priests
From Anglican to married Catholic priest
Spain gets first married priest
Spain (R) Catholic Church ordains first married priest
The Catholic Church - East-West Difference Over Priestly Celibacy

ROMAN CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF SCRANTON TO RECEIVE FIRST ECUSA PRIEST
Defending Chastity in the Priesthood
Ordination of married men is raised at Vatican synod
Patriarch of Venice deemphasizes ordination of married men to the priesthood
Cardinal Pell: Ending Celibacy Rule Would Be a Blunder

Priest shortage stems from crisis of faith, ignorance of the infinite, not celibacy, say Bishops [at Synod]
Vatican synod rules out married priests (for Latin Church)
Synod Affirms Priestly Celibacy
Married Priests Aren’t the Answer (a seminarian states his view)
5 Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them

(Catholic) Church makes a clear distinction between chastity and celibacy, says Priest
Why Not Married Priests? The Case for Clerical Celibacy
The biblical foundation of priestly celibacy
Married, ex-Episcopalian ordained a Catholic priest in California
Getting It Right:The Foundation of Friendship (What can a celibate priest really teach us about love

Another One Takes the Plunge [swims the Tiber]
Following the Signs (to a priestly vocation)
That sneaky desperate Catholic Church is at it again
Long Journey to Rome (Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for Catholic Church)
New, stricter Priestly Formation Program issued for U.S. Catholic seminaries

Ex-Lutheran bishop found Catholic rock: Joseph Jacobson to be ordained Catholic priest by Christmas
Jesuit defends priestly celibacy (a lengthy but worthy read)
The Gift: A Married Priest Looks at Celiba[cy]
Vatican Reaffirms Celibacy for Priests
Pope, Curia Aides Reaffirm Value of Priestly Celibacy (detailed Vatican response)

Vatican Said (Again!) Not Revising Celibacy Rule
On Priests, Marriage and the Sacraments
Should Catholic priests have the right to marry?
Married Priests Back Celibacy (Part 1 of 2)
Messori: Married priests no remedy for “vocations crisis”

Why Celibacy? [Catholic Caucus]
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
The Nature of Priestly Ordination: Theological Background and Some Present Concerns
Ukrainian cardinal says married men not answer to vocations crisis
Angelo Roncalli (Pope John XXIII) and Priestly Celibacy

Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Roman Catholic Priests the Case For:
Priestly Celibacy: Yes, it is Apostolic [Ecumenical]
Why Can't (Roman) Catholic Priests Get Married?
Married [converts] priests inspire flock

Bad Examples Do Not Invalidate The Value of Priestly Celibacy, Says Bishop
TENDENCY FOR PRIESTS IS TOWARD CELIBACY, SAYS EGYPTIAN BISHOP
The Jewel of Celibacy
Celibacy and the Priesthood

18 posted on 01/30/2011 5:01:41 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Post something from scripture that supports the Catholic view of Priests having to remain celibate.


19 posted on 01/30/2011 5:09:49 PM PST by Joyell
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To: RobbyS
Tradition. From the earliest times, Christianity was always more ascetic than the strain of Judaism that evolved into orthodox Judaism after the Destruction of the Temple. Virginity was prized above marriage. Unlike Judaism, which stopped proselytizing by the 2nd Century, Christianity increased its numbers mainly by conversion. And until the 3rd century, Christianity were still much excited by the expected Return of the Lord. The that was relayed, many Christians turned away from ordinary pursuits and in the late 3rd Century, the monastic movement began. The idea of living the same kind of life that Our Lord did during his ministry, and which was copied by the Apostles, had always been attractive. Now it became the beau ideal of the Christian life, the way to sanctity For more than 1000 years it remained that way, until the Reformation which had a very different view, one reflecting a rejection of monasticism. The monk was no longer the ideal Christian, but rather the scholar of the Bible, and the layman. The Protestant minister is not a priest but simply a layman appointed by a congregation to perform a certain function, something like a eucharistic minister/lector/cantor/business manager in a Catholic Church.

Only comment worth it's salt on this thread, and I notice no one responds. So I will, Thanks!

Priestly celibacy, a Catholic discipline criticized by CINO's and the world. Frankly, I could care less what the millions of religions outside the Church do. I don't understand why they feel a need to stick their noses into the Catholicism's business. The Church has never been in the popularity business.

20 posted on 01/30/2011 5:18:08 PM PST by verdugo
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To: BunnySlippers
But it ensures that the priesthood is a haven for gays. It almost always has been.

I personally don't much care which way the Church goes on celibacy (leaving aside the unacceptable notion of actually allowing men already ordained to marry, which is completely unprecedented in traditional Christianity), but your reasoning here is fallacious. There is no reason to believe that a celibate priesthood must become a haven for gays other than the assertion that it is so. Gays can do any number of jobs which give greater access to children, and there is ever diminishing causes why a gay man would feel the need to "hide" in a job which conveniently explains his choice not to marry. Our society does not particularly stigmatize homosexuals, and so they are able to live openly whenever they want, and engage in whatever methods they like to find interested partners. The priesthood, if anything, would be a bad choice.

21 posted on 01/30/2011 5:20:36 PM PST by cothrige
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To: cothrige

Listen to the Village People.


22 posted on 01/30/2011 5:22:03 PM PST by BunnySlippers (I love BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: Joyell
re: Marriage hasn't stopped Billy Graham, Bill Bright, and countless others from serving the Lord.

Why do you non-Catholics feel a need to butt into Catholic Church matters? Is it maybe because you are just winging it, and thus, altogether lack conviction about the veracity of your religion?

I'm a Catholic, I could care less if Billy Graham was married to another man. To me the only true faith is Catholic and all other religions are false and paths to perdition, what do I care about their details.

23 posted on 01/30/2011 5:36:20 PM PST by verdugo
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To: PanzerKardinal

But... all of those reasons are stupid


24 posted on 01/30/2011 6:09:55 PM PST by Mr. K (Empty, Stupid Happy Talk is NOT 'Reaganesque'!)
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To: verdugo

Well, you have a point. It IS a Catholic issue, and not one that concerns me, as I’m Protestant.

I don’t feel like I’m “butting into Catholic Church matters”, as you put it, but stating facts regarding the topic posted here on FR.

If you’re convinced the Catholic Religion is the only true religion, then you shouldn’t have any problem supporting your church beliefs with scriptures from the Holy Bible.


25 posted on 01/30/2011 6:11:19 PM PST by Joyell
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To: Joyell
I don’t see anything in scripture that says a priest/rabbi/leader of the church should be celibate.

That statement indicates that you possess a very poor comprehension of Scripture. More than likely no one has ever read to you those passages of Scripture where celibacy is highly praised.

Paul talks about his celibate life, how he doesn’t have a family to worry about, but he goes on to say that people should marry if they couldn’t remain celibate.

St. Paul also speaks of serving God without impediment. I guess you simply glossed over that part of 1 Corinthians.

St. Paul’s advice to Timothy calling the forbidding of marriage a “doctrine of devils”.

The Church doesn't forbid marriage unlike the Gnostics, Marcionites, Encratites, Manicheans, and other ancient heretics to whom St. Paul was referring who absolutely forbid marriage to anyone due to their belief that all flesh emanated from an evil principle. The Church asks those seeking ordination in the Latin Rite to choose between having a family and sacrificing all, as the Apostles did, to serve the Lord. By the way please provide the "doctrine of devils" passage citation.

To say that a priest can better serve the Lord if he’s unmarried doesn’t make sense.

Christ, the Apostles and St. Paul disagree.

It really hurts the Lord’s work when committed Christians don’t have children.

It hurts the Lord when self proclaimed Christians fail to discern the difference between the common priesthood of the believer and the ministerial Priesthood of the ordained.

26 posted on 01/30/2011 6:21:42 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: fabian
Many of the apostles had families , I am sure.

What do you base that assertion on?

27 posted on 01/30/2011 6:23:44 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Joyell
re: If you’re convinced the Catholic Religion is the only true religion, then you shouldn't’t have any problem supporting your church beliefs with scriptures from the Holy Bible.

It's your DIY invented system that requires "supporting a belief from scriptures". Your question is analogous to me asking a YOPIOS to support his belief from the Early Church Fathers and dogma. We are not on the same page.

If you really wanted to know, you wouldn't be here asking, since you can just Google it from real Catholic sources.

28 posted on 01/30/2011 6:35:05 PM PST by verdugo
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To: Joyell
Well, you have a point. It IS a Catholic issue, and not one that concerns me, as I’m Protestant.

You certainly are expending a lot of effort on a topic that doesn't concern you. However, you should be asking yourself why so few, if any, protestant ministers, particularly those who tout themselves as "Bible believers", choose to emulate the example set by the Apostles, St. Paul and Christ Himself.

I don’t feel like I’m “butting into Catholic Church matters”, as you put it, but stating facts regarding the topic posted here on FR.

You're stating your opinion, not facts.

29 posted on 01/30/2011 6:42:49 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Your response to me that I have “very poor comprehension of scripture” would have validity if you had posted a scripture that backed the Catholic belief that church leaders are forbidden to marry.

Doesn’t the Catholic Church look at Peter as the head of the church? He was married because the bible says, “When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.” Matthew 8:14 You just wrote that Jesus Christ disagreed with what I said, but he chose Peter as one of his disciples, and Catholics believe he’s the first pope.

If I “glossed over 1 Corinthians”, as you say, then please post the scripture that says Priests/Rabbis/Church Leaders are to remain celibate. In 1 Timothy 3:2, it states...”Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.”

If the Catholic Church doesn’t forbid marriage, then are you saying that a Catholic Priest would be allowed to marry, and continue to carry out his duties as Priest?

Tertullian is an early church father, and he was married.


30 posted on 01/30/2011 6:55:51 PM PST by Joyell
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Peter was married. Is his example one to be followed?


31 posted on 01/30/2011 6:57:46 PM PST by Joyell
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To: A.A. Cunningham

well, is it not commonsense that if Jesus chose 12 apostles of men around his age that some would have had families?


32 posted on 01/30/2011 7:18:52 PM PST by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo in laughter")
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To: PanzerKardinal

Because it doesn’t end up pressuring a kid to live up to difficult expectations


33 posted on 01/30/2011 7:38:32 PM PST by Niuhuru (The Internet is the digital AIDS; adapting and successfully destroying the MSM host.)
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To: Joyell
Tertullian is an early church father, and he was married.

Tertullian was a layman, not a priest. How is his marital status relevant?

I'm sure you're familiar with 1 Cor 7:32-34, where Paul specifically teaches that the unmarried state frees one to better serve God.

34 posted on 01/30/2011 8:37:49 PM PST by Campion
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To: BunnySlippers; TheDingoAteMyBaby
Sorry for such a long wait... I went to sleep for the night right after my last post. I'll answer the two of you together, since what you're asking is related.

How do you get rid of the gays?

-----

The first is what sort of methods the church uses to screen out unfit men.

The "screening" process is rather extensive today (though in the past it hasn't been). Upon applying to a diocese, a man goes through interviews, needs letters of recommendation from clergy and from other people, and takes an extensive psychological examination. Once in seminary (which is usually between 6 and 8 years total), seminary formators have the opportunity to examine the man is his interactions with others; he is evaluated yearly, for many of these years he is evaluated with faculty, self, and peer evaluations. His interactions during pastoral work are evaluated and reported back to the seminary/diocese. If problems arise, they are addressed - be that through the seminarian working with a formator, working with a psychologist (if the situation warrants it), taking a pastoral formation year, or being asked to leave the formation program entirely.

It's not a perfect system, and not every diocese and seminary implements it perfectly, but I think it does a pretty thorough job of sifting out unfit candidates.

35 posted on 01/30/2011 10:47:48 PM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: TheDingoAteMyBaby
why not have the option of allowing married men to the priesthood as long as they have no minor children.

In one sense, we could do it tomorrow - doctrinally, there is no issue with married men being ordained.

However, there are several reasons why we continue not to. Among them include:

- the priest's heart would be divided between his wife and his flock - whether or not he has minor children, this would be the case (not that that has not prevented the acceptance of married clergy from Protestant denominations into priesthood in the Latin Rite of the Church)

- If we're following the book entirely and maintaining the traditions of the Catholic Church even where married clergy are concerned, the priest would still be required to be continent even if married - that is, no sex. This hasn't been emphasized in the specific cases of married priests and in the more widespread situation of married permanent deacons.

- The married priest lacks the flexibility to minister and pray as he needs to.

- It inhibits the Christological and Ecclesiological symbolism of the priest, and lacks the radical witness to the Kingdom that is particularly necessary in today's society.

- It would make formation very, very difficult, in the sense that the married seminarian would be separate from the rest of the community; likewise, it would require the wife to be breadwinner during the 6 years of studies, in order to provide for a home outside of the seminary.

Others might disagree, particularly our Eastern Catholic/Orthodox brethren, and that's fine. You can find more in Paul VI's encyclical Sacerdotalis Caelibatus; I would suggest reading it if you really want to understand why.

36 posted on 01/30/2011 10:50:47 PM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: fabian
"Many of the apostles had families , I am sure."

The Apostle Peter was married, right up until the time of his martydom.

37 posted on 01/31/2011 4:42:45 AM PST by circlecity
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To: verdugo

In the eastern Church, the monks still retains a special place, more so than in the West, these days. Fact is that it is impossible for a family man to perform the heroic deeds ascribed to the early Jesuit missionaries, or indeed, going back a thousand years before, the Irish monks who missionized all western Europe, following the all-in model of St.Patrick himself. The married priest model of the Greek Church and the married English clergy are not to be scorned. But it is interesting that John Wesley—the great English evangelist and a product of a clerical family—was himself a lousy husband, because he was never there.


38 posted on 01/31/2011 5:03:36 AM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: GCC Catholic

Our eastern brothers have another problem. Finding a woman who will endure the relative poverty of clerical life. Which is why so many Greek priests are involuntarily celibate.


39 posted on 01/31/2011 5:13:10 AM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: GCC Catholic
Control, control, control.

Besides the gay priests do not want married men and their wives snooping around.

40 posted on 01/31/2011 7:09:41 AM PST by VidMihi ("In fide, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.")
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To: RobbyS
Our eastern brothers have another problem. Finding a woman who will endure the relative poverty of clerical life. Which is why so many Greek priests are involuntarily celibate.

Very true... The Catholic dioceses that have accepted married clergy converts as priests have to make great efforts to ensure that they are in positions where they can earn enough to support their families. This would be impossible if a larger percentage of priests were married.

Likewise, I'm not sure what the particular arrangements are for married permanent deacons, but I do know that many of them have 'day jobs.'

41 posted on 01/31/2011 7:19:42 AM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: VidMihi
Control, control, control.

Control over what?

Besides the gay priests do not want married men and their wives snooping around.

I guess they're not particularly thrilled about the fervent young (heterosexual) priests coming out of seminaries... or those pesky heterosexual lay staff members either.

(By the way... I'm hoping you were kidding)

42 posted on 01/31/2011 7:24:23 AM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: GCC Catholic

A married clergy would be a “profession,” in the narrow, bourgeoisie sense of the word, rather than a calling. Even evangelicals understand the difference between a servant==which is the ministers they “call,” and an employee. A servant, they expect much more from. Hence if he has a wife, she, too, is expected to serve. Of course, wealthy congregation tend to think in terns more like an employer-employee relationship, like between a public school board and a superintendent.


43 posted on 01/31/2011 7:36:42 AM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: GCC Catholic
Once upon a time, before the nuns got liberated, THEY tended to keep an eye on the priests and to use back-channels to inform the bishop of the more egregious offenders.
44 posted on 01/31/2011 7:39:48 AM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Campion

Paul also goes on to say that if anyone can’t abstain, then they should marry. Nowhere, does Paul say that one can’t be the leader of a church if they are married.

Peter was married, and the Catholic Church says that he was the first Pope. If I’m not mistaken, weren’t the Catholic Priests married in the early beginnings of the Catholic Church? There was a reason why they were forbidden to marry, and it seems like it had to with money. When the priest and his wife divorced, the church was having to pay her divorce settlement, and/or alimony.


45 posted on 01/31/2011 7:51:26 AM PST by Joyell
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To: Joyell
Your response to me that I have “very poor comprehension of scripture” would have validity if you had posted a scripture that backed the Catholic belief that church leaders are forbidden to marry.

Incorrect. There are numerous verses in Scripture, which you apparently have never had read to you, in which celibacy is praised. The burden to disprove your incorrect assertion:

I don’t see anything in scripture that says a priest/rabbi/leader of the church should be celibate.

doesn't lie with me. That burden, along with the burden to improve your comprehension, lies with you. I've posted the Scriptural references numerous times in the past, so I have no aversion to doing it again. You however, need to admit that you really don't know what you're talking about.

Doesn’t the Catholic Church look at Peter as the head of the church

No. The Church recognizes that Christ is the head of the Church. He is the bridegroom and the Church is His bride. The Church acknowledges that St. Peter was the rock that Christ built His Church upon and that St. Peter was the first Pope.

He was married because the bible says,

I'm well aware that by mentioning his mother-in-law, Scripture implies that St. Peter was at one time married. Are you aware that St. Peter's wife is never mentioned in Scripture?

If I “glossed over 1 Corinthians”, as you say, then please post the scripture that says Priests/Rabbis/Church Leaders are to remain celibate.

I'll be happy to do that at the end of my post when I provide the litany of Scripture verses which you conveniently have chosen to ignore. However, I want you to admit that in addition to your poor comprehension of Scripture, that a married Priest cannot fully devote himself to both the service of God as well as the care of his family.

If the Catholic Church doesn’t forbid marriage, then are you saying that a Catholic Priest would be allowed to marry, and continue to carry out his duties as Priest?

No I'm not. Are you saying that any man has a right to be ordained to the Priesthood? Number one, 21 of the 22 Churches sui juris which comprise the Catholic Church, ordain, as a norm married men. However, there has never been a time when, once ordained, a single Priest could then lawfully marry and remain in the clerical state. Same as in the Greek Orthodox Church, a denomination whose discipline you apparently have no disagreement with.

In 1 Timothy 3:2, it states...”Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.”

Incorrect. You've quoted 1 Timothy 3:12 not 1 Timothy 3:2. By the way, the Catholic Church has married deacons. The topic at hand, however, is the Priesthood not the Diaconate.

Tertullian is an early church father, and he was married.

Why would you be referencing Tertullian since the basis of your argument has been what you believe is and isn't contained in Scripture? I'm quite certain that if you were actually familiar with the body of his work you wouldn't have mentioned him because he wrote the following:

"Peter alone [among the Apostles] do I find married, and through mention of his mother-in-law. I presume he was a monogamist; for the Church, built upon him, would for the future appoint to every degree of orders none but monogamists. As for the rest, since I do not find them married, I must presume they were either eunuchs or continent." De monogamia 8,4 post AD 213

Will you be posting quotes from other Fathers of the Church which support the discipline of celibacy? I highly doubt it.

The following is provided for your much needed edification:

"Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take it let him take it." Matthew 19:11-12

"Then Peter answering said to Him: Behold we have left all things and have followed Thee: what therefore shall we have? And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you that you, who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of His majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold and shall possess life everlasting. And many that are first shall be last: and the last shall be first. " Matthew 19:27-30 (emphasis added)

"Then Peter said: Behold we have left all things and have followed Thee. Who said to them: Amen, I say to you, there is no man that hath left home or parents or brethren or wife or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive much more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." Luke 18:28-30 (emphasis added)

"But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I." 1 Corinthians 7:8

"But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord: how he may please God. But he that is with a wife is solicitous for the things of the world: how he may please his wife. And he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the vidgin thinketh on the things of the Lord: that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world: how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your profit, not to cast a snare upon you, but for that which is decent and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord without impediment." 1 Corinthians 7:32-35 (emphasis added)

"Labour as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No man, being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular businesses: that he may please Him to whom he hath engaged himself." 2 Timothy 2:3-4

"And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things: in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

46 posted on 01/31/2011 8:44:39 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: fabian
You stated, "Many of the apostles had families , I am sure.

Other than your self proclaimed "commonsense", what do you base that assertion on?

47 posted on 01/31/2011 8:51:29 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: circlecity
The Apostle Peter was married, right up until the time of his martydom.

Based on what source? According to Clement of Alexandria, tradition holds that St. Peter's wife was martyred prior to his crucifixion.

48 posted on 01/31/2011 9:00:51 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: RobbyS

Compared to most Catholic Priests, Greek Orthodox Priests are very well compensated.


49 posted on 01/31/2011 9:03:39 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Joyell
If I’m not mistaken, weren’t the Catholic Priests married in the early beginnings of the Catholic Church?

Some were but they were expected, with the consent of their spouse, to be continent following ordination.

There was a reason why they were forbidden to marry, and it seems like it had to with money.

An urban legend perpetuated by the ignorant.

If you possess a sincere desire to be educated on the topic I suggest you read the following:

Unfortunately, I think you're very content to remain in your current state.

50 posted on 01/31/2011 9:11:08 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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