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How They Deny Christ...
http://billrandles.wordpress.com/ ^ | 02-06-11 | Bill Randles

Posted on 02/06/2011 6:07:26 AM PST by pastorbillrandles

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.(2 Timothy 3:1-5)

There is a frightening phenomenon that I have observed lately. I have been seeing the unhappy spectacle of young people, between their teens and early thirties, reared in the evangelical subculture, yet denying Christ.

They don’t consciously do it, I have no doubt that they don’t realise that they are denying the Saviour, but indeed they are, and in many cases with a vehemence!

The watershed for these young people is the acceptance and rejection of homosexuality.Through a distorted concept of the civil rights movement of the 1960′s , Homosexuals are now considered to be the new victims of oppression, and those who would in any way judge it as evil are now the new bigots.

In fact, we have come to the point in our post christian, paganized culture, where it is not even enough to ‘tolerate’ homosexuality, the pressure is on to become advocates of it, to champion it, and there is a new freedom for people, to hate and demean anyone who would dare call it into question.

The age group I mentioned at the beginning of the article, teens through early thirties are perhaps vulnerable for a number of reasons;

It is they who have been for the most part deliberately propagandized through our public schools, to develop ‘sensitivity’ to homosexual issues, and to question even their own sexuality, long before they have even entered puberty.

Anti bullying campaigns, and whole school days of self-imposed silence in solidarity with ‘Gay’ students have been invented by “gay activists” in order cast homosexuality into a kind of victim status, thus tapping into the natural sympathy and sense of fair play of the young.

Thus to this generation, interaction with and acceptance of homosexuals is an easy bona fide, a way to assert that ”I am compassionate, open minded, unprejudiced and much more loving than the traditional christian church”.

This is how they deny Christ. In the name of “being loving”, and “understanding” they repudiate the revelation of God given to us through Jewish Prophets and Christian apostles, without a second thought.

Our Christian sexual mores are not mere constructs of uptight pastors,priests or rabbis, they are a revelation from God!

“For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they two shall be one flesh…and what God hath joined together, let no man put asunder”.

Man didn’t originate the above, that is God’s definition of marriage. Jesus cited it as being “from the beginning“, the original intent for marriage.

That revelation from heaven caused a moral earthquake in the ancient world, transforming paganism’s exhausted, debauched, rotting societies, offering a wholesome life affirming alternative. Here is how columnist Dennis Prager,who happens to be a practicing Jew describes it,

When Judaism demanded that all sexual activity be channeled into marriage, it changed the world. The Torah’s prohibition of non-marital sex quite simply made the creation of Western civilization possible. Societies that did not place boundaries around sexuality were stymied in their development. The subsequent dominance of the Western world can largely be attributed to the sexual revolution initiated by Judaism and later carried forward by Christianity.

This revolution consisted of forcing the sexual genie into the marital bottle. It ensured that sex no longer dominated society, heightened male-female love and sexuality (and thereby almost alone created the possibility of love and eroticism within marriage), and began the arduous task of elevating the status of women.

Judaism’s Sexual Revolution

But this generation dismisses that for the most part. For the cheap “holier than thou” feeling of compassion, sophistication and solidarity with an oppressed minority, ”christian” young people align themselves with the cause of homosexual marriage, at the expense of those who seek to proclaim the Word of God to this generation.

This is how they deny Jesus, and don’t even realise it.They repudiate his teaching on a very important subject, they side with a world in rebellion against God’s moral order. They don’t realise it in fact they actually believe they are being more merciful and Christlike than other christians.

Sides are being taken in this culmination of the cosmic struggle between Righteousness and unrighteousness, light and darkness, the truth and the Lie, and neutrality is impossible.

I think we need to reach our own young people because they don’t seem ready to stand for Jesus at the point where the world most resists Him.

They are confused about what Love is, but arrogantly believe they are more sophisticated and compassionate than the whole of the christian church through the centuries.


TOPICS: Current Events; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: bloggersandpersonal; christian; homosexual; judgment; sin; sourcetitlenoturl
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1 posted on 02/06/2011 6:07:32 AM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: pastorbillrandles
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.

-CS Lewis.
2 posted on 02/06/2011 6:10:23 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: pastorbillrandles
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:

Pretty well describes Obama TO-A-TEE.

3 posted on 02/06/2011 6:17:37 AM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: mountn man

It describes alot of people who profess to be Christians today and is a huge reason that our Christian nation is in the sad shape it is.


4 posted on 02/06/2011 6:19:54 AM PST by DarthVader (That which supports Barack Hussein Obama must be sterilized and there are NO exceptions!)
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To: cripplecreek

Amen- That is a beautiful quote! I don’t believe that they can diminish the glory of God. But I am concerned that so many I have met in that generation are so unprepared for the persecution coming, and so readily accommodate the world spirit.


5 posted on 02/06/2011 6:20:16 AM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: pastorbillrandles

I am reminded of a speech given before the Mass. Bible Society ,by a man named Winthrop.Titled The Bible or the Bayonet.and I am convinced that his speech reflected what was written by Noah Webster in the Bible translation he prepared some years earlier. But when I compare what is seen and reported today—I see these Americans were almost prophetic of our time.The strong arm of man and fear of the bayonet is more and more the only recourse left a people that have heaped unto themselves teachers, having itching ears,and turned from the truth unto fables. I was a full time Bible College student when my last daughter was born. My only son was encouraged by his advisors-following national public school policy to “try it” homosexual lifestyle—and “decide for himself” Only then were his parents consulted. I failed my children by not being strict enough-by not insisting there is a way they must live....or die.They seem lost-yet unwilling to surrender to God-And I fear the signs of the times are ignored at our peril.


6 posted on 02/06/2011 6:20:41 AM PST by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: pastorbillrandles

When I read the comments sections say of Yahoo News or similar its astounding the amount of anti-Christ and disdain for a holy God. Quite scary really the lack of knowledge and downright hate of a loving God and Creator.


7 posted on 02/06/2011 6:20:52 AM PST by tflabo
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To: pastorbillrandles

Sooner or later every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.


8 posted on 02/06/2011 6:24:07 AM PST by tflabo
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To: pastorbillrandles
It is they who have been for the most part deliberately propagandized through our public schools, ....
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If children are sent into the godless collectivist government schools they **WILL** learn to think godlessly. ( Is a “duh” needed here?)

And...SHAME on any so-called Christian teacher who supports, upholds, and promotes these godless temples of the government! If a Christian teacher hasn't been fired yet, then he or she **is** doing **exactly** that. They are upholding, supporting, and promoting godlessness.

Oh...And PULEEZE! Don't give us that drivel that Christian teachers sneak in Christian principles into their classes! What they are doing is teaching children that Christians are sneaky.

The worst is that so-called Christian teachers beguile young and inexperienced parents into thinking their godless collectivist school is somehow different because it has some Christian teachers.

And...Children do eventually figure out that that godlessness and Christianity are incompatible. Christian teachers merely teach the children that Christians will sell their values for a godless paycheck and pension.

If Christian teachers really loved children more than their paychecks, pensions, and generous vacations, they would be building Christian schools. They would be active in their own churches urging them to open Christian schools. They would be resources for Christian homeschooling families.

9 posted on 02/06/2011 6:42:35 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: pastorbillrandles

I’m a public high school teacher. You have no idea how bad it’s gotten until you spend seven hours, five days per week with sixteen and seventeen year olds.

These are not evil kids...they just sometimes do bad things, as society has blessed their free-will to do just about anything they want to. At heart, it is very, very sad. I can see why some Muslims are terrified of our encroaching culture.


10 posted on 02/06/2011 6:53:56 AM PST by kjo
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To: cripplecreek

If god is real, why does he refuse to prove it? I’ve been looking for proof for over 50 yrs,, nada, nothing. Kinda like Obama and his birth certificate. Why not just show up and prove it?


11 posted on 02/06/2011 6:54:38 AM PST by MrPiper
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To: StonyBurk
The sadness in your heart seeps through your post.

Studies show that 85% of children from **active** evangelical homes are not active in their faith 2 years after finishing high school. In contrast, 95% of homeschoolers are active in the Faith of their Father within 2 years of finishing high school.

In my opinion our nation's godless system of government schools and collectivist temples of Secularism is absolutely our nation's greatest long term threat. As a nation we can overcome almost anything if we as a people are well grounded in our Judeo Christian values. But...A weak and spiritually soft nation will crumble.

I am very distressed that other conservatives fail to see the urgency and importance of shutting down the godless collectivist government temples of ignorance ( misnamed “schools”). I am profoundly worried that other conservatives do not share my concern that we must give every child in this nation the opportunity for a truly Judeo-Christian based education that upholds our nation's founding principles.

12 posted on 02/06/2011 6:55:26 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: MrPiper
If god is real, why does he refuse to prove it?

Who said God refuses? I see my proof every day.
13 posted on 02/06/2011 6:59:02 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: cripplecreek

Well you should point it out. The world is bad, there is murder,rape,torture all around.


14 posted on 02/06/2011 7:02:02 AM PST by MrPiper
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To: cripplecreek

By the way, call me when I can see the talking burning bush or 3 fish feed thousands. THAT would be proof.


15 posted on 02/06/2011 7:04:58 AM PST by MrPiper
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To: MrPiper

My proof is my proof and the proof of others is theirs. For me, mere existence and consciousness are proof for me and me alone. I find proof in science from the big bang theory down to the hydrogen bond.


16 posted on 02/06/2011 7:11:17 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: pastorbillrandles

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.(2 Timothy 3:1-5)

it’s pretty teling when president Bush has to cancel a speaking engagement in Switzerland of all places due to threats against hisl ife, yet the world sim ply adores an antiChristian such as obama, and nominates a rapist and all around creep like Assange for the ‘nobel peace prize’


17 posted on 02/06/2011 7:22:45 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: DarthVader
Most definitely agree there.

I get tired of turning on "Christian Television" and getting shallow, pompous, blowhards. I've got 6 "Christian" tv stations, and can seldom find worthwhile content.

Even one of my favorite on air preachers has his own (first name) (middle initial) (last name) Bible.

Today, whether its tv, church buses or church signs, pastors feel its necessary to promote their names out there. (granted, there is a time and place for a persons name)

Today, ordinary Christians are caught up in it. "I go to this church" "So-n-so is MY pastor" "I watch this show" "I've read that book"

Flipping through the channels there was a pastor saying "Jesus would want us to have healthcare", at which point I turned the channel. Churches have turned away from a RESPONSIBILITY to take care of their own, to feel good service to the community. We have food pantries and food drives, to "reach out" to the community, to "help meet the needs" of others, so that WE feel good. Where is the younger generation taking in the older generation? Where is the older generation being involved with the much younger generation? Where is the church actually LOOKING OUT for the widows and infirmed? Not just a phone call or visit, but actually TAKING RESPONSIBILITY to meet the need? Not just part of a need, but making sure the entire "need" is met.

We have become like society, and abdicated to the government, so that WE don't have to be bothered. And yet the good things we do, we want to FEEL GOOD about, no matter how small and insignificant they are.

18 posted on 02/06/2011 7:24:41 AM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: MrPiper

Call us when YOU get serious about finding God- God reveals Himself to ANYONE who honestly calls upon Him for salvation- but YOU must decide that you want Him to reveal Himself to you- He isn’t going to force Himself on anyone who doesn’t truly want Him in their lives- He has however revealed Himself to 2 billion Christians all over the world- what are you waiting for?

BTW- God left a FAR BETTER revelation and terstimony of Himself than mere miraculous events of the old testament- He left the witness of the Holy Spirit- which, should you decide to take God at His word, and accept Him, will imediately find out is far more real than you can ever imagine- butr again - you have to take the first step- I and 2 billion other Christians can assure you that you will NOT be dissappointed

God wrote a book for you- He gave His word in this book, many people, both secular and religious corroborated His word throguh the ages, Yet you still refuse to beleive Him? I doubt a burnign bush is going to even get your attention- You’d make soem excuse asd to why it wasn’t real- or it was faked, or some form of magic- God has more than authenticated His book, His acts, and His love toward those who accept Him- and many many poeople can attest to His love for them today- but you still refuse to beleive them?


19 posted on 02/06/2011 7:51:08 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: wintertime

re: “If Christian teachers really loved children more than their paychecks, pensions, and generous vacations, they would be building Christian schools. They would be active in their own churches urging them to open Christian schools. They would be resources for Christian homeschooling families.”

I think homeschooling is great. My wife has homeschooled our children for a year or two when needed. I’ve administered standardized tests for homeschooled children and enjoyed doing it. Homeschooling is the best way to go if the parents are able to do it. The so-called socialization problem is indeed a myth because kids are involved in church, sports, music classes, etc.

I agree that public education has many problems. Where I part ways with wintertime specifically is:

1) that these problems are insurmountable
2) her blanket condemnation that all public schools
are horrible and without redeeming value
3) her sweeping, blanket condemnation of
conservatives and/or Christians who teach in
public school.

She doesn’t just question Christians motives for teaching in a public school - she KNOWS their motives: she says we are all greedy, hypocritical, and liars.

So, while I am not certain that I am among the ones that wintertime is referring to in her quote above, the reason I respond to some of her postings is not because I am “defending” public education so much as I am defending the integrity of conservatives and/or Christians who choose to become educators and teach in public school.

I disagree with wintertime that all public schools are beyond hope. I don’t believe that all public schools are equally in the bad shape she insists they are. Wintertime does.

Further, wintertime chooses to be needlessly hostile toward any Christian or conservative who is a “government” school teacher.

So, while I can’t speak for others, I am not defending public education, but I am defending the motives and the right of conservatives and Christians who try to improve and make a positive difference within public education. I don’t think that is a bad thing. Wintertime does.

P.S. I don’t belong to the NEA.


20 posted on 02/06/2011 7:57:00 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: CottShop

I could not have said it any better. It is our commission as Christians to bring unbelievers to Christ. At times, however, we must realize that we are casting pearls before swine and must shake the dust off of our sandals and move on. When we reach that point all we can do is tell the unbeliever not to take the Mark. Hopefully, he will remember it after we are gone.


21 posted on 02/06/2011 7:59:56 AM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: CottShop

All too often I think people expect an earthshaking event to bring faith into their lives. I personally think faith that grows naturally and slowly over many years is strongest. Its a blade of grass vs a tree.


22 posted on 02/06/2011 8:00:03 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: cripplecreek

great quote.


23 posted on 02/06/2011 8:02:21 AM PST by sauropod (The truth shall make you free but first it will make you miserable.)
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To: MrPiper

re: “If god is real, why does he refuse to prove it? I’ve been looking for proof for over 50 yrs,, nada, nothing. Kinda like Obama and his birth certificate. Why not just show up and prove it?”

MrPiper, I submit to you that God has given proof of His existence time and time again. First, there is the magnificense of this universe we live in - it either got here by creating itself out of nothing - or, Someone created it out of nothing.

Second, God entered time and human history as a infant, lived among us, taught us about His love, performed many miracles to show He was who He said He was, died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead.

Third, the witness of millions of believers for over two thousand years - and, yes, the same can be said of other faiths - but, there is not denying the impact Christianity has had on the world and especially western civilization.

Fourth, there is the written witness of the Bible that has withstood the test of time and scrutiney. It has demonstrated itself to be archologically compatable with history, the texts we have are reliable, and able to change the hearts of people.

You seem to think that the existence of evil disproves God - but, you must remember that unless God gave us the freedom to choose or reject Him - then, we would just be robots. We are the ones who choose to do evil - not God. So, at least put the blame where it belongs.


24 posted on 02/06/2011 8:07:04 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: SVTCobra03

The funny thing is that I’ve found my greatest sense of inner peace since I sincerely started praying for those who hate us most. I can’t show them the light but I truly do hope they find it on their own.


25 posted on 02/06/2011 8:09:10 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: MrPiper

mr piper- I was a bit harsh- There certainly is no shame in doubting, as everyone does doubt- Even Thomas, who walked with Christ- witnessed Christ’s miracles first hand, witnessed the Ressurected Christ, doubted- Chjrist didn’t rebuke Thomas for doubting-

Thomas Finally Had the breakthrough ‘Aha’ moment when he let go of his doubt, and Saw Christ for who He really was- He met Christ as God for the first time- up until that poiuint, Thomas had let his doubting nature rule his life, and he refused to beleive Christ was God- refused to beleive the miracles, refused to bleeive the witnesses of the many who saw Christ and beleived-

IF you truly want to meet Christ- Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to you- Ask Him to remove the viel that prevents you from Seeing Christ, and TRUST that The Holy spirit will do so no matter howl ong it takes- He WILL remove that veil IF you stay true to your faith that He will do so- Just know that the Evil one will do everythign in his power to prevent you from holdign onto that faith and cause you to give up in hopelessness- but if you stay true to this glimmer of faith- You WILL find God to be quite true to His word and will get more than enough confirmation of His existence and reality in your daily life on a personal level that you would never had received from simpel personal witness of miracles- Gos is so much more than a magician who does our bidding whenever we demand it- move beyond this demand, and you will find a God who loves you and has been waiting all this time for you to shed the doubt and take the leap of faith that we ALL MUST take befiore He reveals Himself to us.


26 posted on 02/06/2011 8:25:21 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: MrPiper
Hello Mr Piper-If you can read this you have eyes that God gave You if you can do that you have a heart that beats from God. You have also lungs that breath from God. Life is a gift. Seek and you will find. If you really mean it. You will find. A humble and contrite heart he will not ignore.

Psalm9:9

And the Lord is become a Refuge for the poor: a Helper in due time in tribulation. 10 And let them Trust in Thee who know thy name: for thou Hast Not Forsaken Them that Seek thee, O Lord."

Many years ago I asked God if He really existed where I would know that I know. I worked in lower Manhattan. I asked this for real and reminded God on a commuter train. I went to do my daily work rounds. I took a break in a Lobby of a building. Sitting in area where people could sit. Well as I sat I heard a rush of a wind and a paper floating on the air slowly before my eyes like an unseen hand waving this paper to get my attention. It landed slowly going back and forth in between my feet like it wanted my undivided attention. There it was before me. I picked it up. I started to read believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptised to be saved. It was a tract from a pentocostal church in Brooklyn NY. I said this prayer before on this tract but I said it again. Later after work in this building I went downstairs to the subway for the commute home. As I was on the subway platform a Man in a clerical clothing came behind me. He told me God wants me to talk to you. He told me things he did not know about me. He told me to believe and live for Christ. I asked should I leave the Church that I go to he said know it's the main branch of Christianity. To make a long story short he was from a Pentacostal church in brooklyn the same church in the tract paper. I did not divulge this to him that was between the good Lord and my self. Now for you to know.

Let go and let God. Do not give up hope. Really ask and you shall receive.

Praise Jesus!

Amen! Amen! - Amen means So Be It!

27 posted on 02/06/2011 8:26:09 AM PST by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: MrPiper; cripplecreek
By the way, call me when I can see the talking burning bush or 3 fish feed thousands. THAT would be proof.

Have you EVER looked at the workings of the human body???

The way that the ear nose and throat are interconnected, and that one affects the other.

Ever wonder at the intricacies of the human heart, and how it "just developed" from nothing?? Cells randomly formed into a heart. Not just any old heart, because the heart of a cheetah won't work in a human, nor will a giraffes, nor a dogs, nor a goats, nor an elephants, nor a horses, nor...

Did you ever marvel at a kidney and how it functions?? And how it randomly "just developed". How, when working properly, detoxifies the body. And yet, not only is it different than an animals kidney, seldom is it the same as another persons. Blood type has an effect, tissue type, and a series of other things that seperate it from millions of other peoples'.

Ever look at the human brain??? With all of our great knowledge, we have YET to make a computer that can do everything that the brain can do. And yet, the brain, with no outside influence, created intself, from basic cells.

Each individual part of the body each did this. ON ITS OWN. With no outside input or design.

Now whats really amazing, each PART of the body works together making up the WHOLE body. The BODY being the most intricate machine ever developed, and yet each part randomly evolved on its own, to work a specific function, that is seperate from another parts, but seemlessly fits and works together.

Whats even more amazing is that EACH body part "evolved" at exactly the same time. Without the brain the body couldn't function. Without lungs the body couldn't function. Without kidneys the body couldn't function. Without a heart the body couldn't function. Its all or nothing.

Speaking of all or nothing. Each part has to evolve instantaniously. Without being fully developed an eye is useless. The brain, without being fully developed is useless. Same with the kidneys. And so on.

Not only does the body need all those parts to "evolve" at the same time in order for the body to work, each PART has to evolve IN FULL in order for it to work.

Now take into account what all is involved with the human body "evolving" and multiply that 1000's of times over with every type of animal and insect.

28 posted on 02/06/2011 8:31:31 AM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: wintertime

Agreed.
If you give your children to Caesar to be educated, don’t be surprised when they come home Romans.


29 posted on 02/06/2011 8:46:30 AM PST by all the best
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To: Nevadan
Please note: EVERY WORD in the post below is **GENERAL** and applies to the **GENERAL** problem of Christians and Christian belief in **GENERAL** in all government schools. It is NOT NOT NOT directed personally to any Freeper!!!

1) that these problems are insurmountable

They are insurmountable. Why?

Answer: Because simply by attending collectivist, socialist-funded, godless, government owned and run schools, that are supervised by the voting mob ( comrade committee "school boards") children **will** become comfortable with collectivism, socialism, government ownership and management of their lives, and learn to submit to the voting mob. And..They **WILL** learn to think godlessly in these so-called schools, or at least to compartmentalize their faith. They must simply to function at all.

Since the above is the **fundamental** structure of the government schools the only way to fix it would be to have non-collectivist, non-socialist funded, non-government owned and run, GOD-CENTERED, and individually parent-teacher-principal supervised education. Huh?...Isn't this the very definition of **private** education?

2) her blanket condemnation that all public schools are horrible and without redeeming value

There is NO redeeming value in teaching children to be comfortable with collectivism, socialism, government ownership and management of a social service, voting mob comrade committee supervision of one's mind and soul, and GODLESSNESS! And...**ALL** government schools ( The good, the bad, and the ugly) are collectivist, socialist, godless, government owned and run, and supervised by the voting mob comrade committees ( "school boards")

3) her sweeping, blanket condemnation of conservatives and/or Christians who teach in public school.

Yeah! I do condemn those people who would teach children to think godlessly, and be comfortable with collectivism, socialism, government ownership and management of their mind and soul. **ALL** government schools do this. Yeah! Blanket condemnation fits. What should be the appropriate response in doing this to children? Huh?

She doesn’t just question Christians motives for teaching in a public school - she KNOWS their motives: she says we are all greedy, hypocritical, and liars.

I have made no comment about "motives". I have commented on the obvious conflicts between Christian belief and supporting and upholding the godlessness found in the government schools.

Regardless of motivation, if Christians attempt to sneak in a little Christian belief into their classes, which by law are godlessly secular, they **WILL** teach the children that Christians are sneaky and too timid to boldly teach what the teacher knows to be true.

Regardless of motivation children will eventually figure out that Christian belief can NOT coexist with the godless worldview that is taught in the government schools. The two worldviews, godless and God-centered, can not occupy the same time and space in the classroom or textbook. The children, on some level, will conclude that the Christian teacher is a hypocrite that is willing to sell their beliefs for a pay check, pension, and generous vacation time. It does not matter what the "motivation" of the Christian teacher is.

Further, wintertime chooses to be needlessly hostile toward any Christian or conservative who is a “government” school teacher.

Hostile? What should the appropriate response be to people who teach children to think godlessly? ( And...To keep a job in a government school this **is** what is done!) What should the proper response be to those who teach children to be comfortable with collectivism, socialism, voting mob comrade committees ( school boards),government ownership of their very minds and souls?

but I am defending the motives and the right of conservatives and Christians who try to improve and make a positive difference within public education.

As for motives, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If a Christian has kept his job in the godless government schools, and has not yet been fired, then he is supporting, upholding, and promoting the worldview of godlessness.

this has not been proof read. I am in a rush.

30 posted on 02/06/2011 8:51:42 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: pastorbillrandles; cripplecreek
[...] I am concerned that so many I have met in that generation are so unprepared for the persecution coming, and so readily accommodate the world spirit.

There may yet be a happy ending... I threw away the faith of my family in the midst of a brilliantly misspent yoot. Virtually every single bit of it.

Yet, when my debauchery and lawlessness resulted in the inevitable result thereof, It was the principles of that faith, long disregarded, that anchored me in a tempestuous sea of my own creation...

Do not be too quick to throw away the cause of our next generation- many of the Father's most effective soldiers bear the scars of the world. They are the most effective, because they know the difference most intimately- having experienced the dark side and having survived, by the Grace of God Himself...

31 posted on 02/06/2011 8:57:41 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: pastorbillrandles

32 posted on 02/06/2011 9:26:41 AM PST by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: MrPiper

They cannot see because they will not see.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.”
Jesus
The atheist says there is no God and I hate him


33 posted on 02/06/2011 9:36:07 AM PST by valiant4thetruth
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To: wintertime

[[If a Christian has kept his job in the godless government schools, and has not yet been fired, then he is supporting, upholding, and promoting the worldview of godlessness]]

You knowe, I used to htink this exact same way about Christians workign in secular places, or TRue Christians in churches that don’t preach the full gospel- but my eyes were opened when someone said (after I made a comment similar to yours) ‘You NEVER know hwere the Spirit listeth’ (wherer the spirit is goign to work and when or how)- it could be that some young person is watchign the difference of the true Christian, and the Spirit is workign in the young person’s mind right now as we speak becuase of the Christian example of teacher of church goer’

Remember, Even Christ and the Disciples ‘worked on Sunday’, and they certainly were not supporting a secular ideology in doing so- The Holy aspirit works wherre He will, when He will, and is not subject to our ideology or ideas about where the proper places are for Him to work- He’ll even work in Crack dens where a Christian building janitor might do nothing more than mop the floors with a cheerful attitude that makes the adddict go ‘Hmmm- what is it that makes this person so different?”


34 posted on 02/06/2011 9:55:48 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: MrPiper

If god is real, why does he refuse to prove it? I’ve been looking for proof for over 50 yrs,, nada, nothing. Kinda like Obama and his birth certificate. Why not just show up and prove it?


He did. Blood was the used for the remission of sin, a lamb with no blemish. Jesus is the Lamb of God, died on Calvalry for remission of all mankind’s sin, was raised again on the third day.

He’s coming back.

I pray for you that the Holy Spirit who is still on earth, for a time, speaks to your heart.


35 posted on 02/06/2011 10:48:09 AM PST by Freddd
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To: MrPiper

>> If god is real, why does he refuse to prove it?<<

Watch as how He protects Israel in the coming months or years and you will see the proof. In fact, you may want to read Isaiah 19 to see what He said about what will happen in Egypt.


36 posted on 02/06/2011 11:56:47 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: wintertime

Our education system began with the purpose of teaching children to read the Bible in Latin,Greek, and oftentimes in Hebrew—Entering College— or the University they were required to know Greek enough to translate some of the classical ,secular works—and/or the Bible. The purpose was to train up men as capable of leading a church as a business.
the idea of teaching mans duty to God —and to their fellow man was written in their charters and goals-and students expected to be able to give a ready defense at any time.
The twice passed Northwest Ordinance did not separate nor discriminate against Religion,Morality,or Knowledge but declared all three necessary to good government,and the happiness of mankind.None of this I learned when a ward of the public school system.However much time God gives me to
speak—I will speak Until we the American people start talking to each other and determine we will NO longer be silent—the enemy will win in America.I pray for anew awakening -and that God will find me a worthy voice to speak HIS Gospel.


37 posted on 02/06/2011 2:36:24 PM PST by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: StonyBurk
I checked on the Northwest Ordinance. It stated that education was to be encouraged and set aside land for schools. It did not make it compulsory.

While there were examples of public education in early American, I suspect that Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers, when it came to education, had in mind their **own** educational experiences: home, tutoring, dame schools, small one room schools organized by parents, small home based academies for final preparation for college, apprenticeships or college for young teens.

The progressive, Horace Mann, Prussian-style, modern system of government schools did not come about until the mid-1800s to the early 1900s.

Our Founding Fathers would be horrified to see our modern collectivist government schools.

38 posted on 02/06/2011 4:04:45 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: mountn man

Great post mountn man. The christian church, for the most part, departed from the truth when they abandoned the Ten Commandments, especially number three and four. What you have now is a movement full of vain people, trying to worship on the day NOT set apart for doing so, wondering what happened.


39 posted on 02/06/2011 4:53:15 PM PST by STYRO (Go ahead, make my day.)
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To: MrPiper

“Why not just show up and prove it?”

He will. Then it will be too late. Forced repentance isn’t repentance, and forced obedience isn’t God’s desire from man.


40 posted on 02/06/2011 4:57:48 PM PST by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: MrPiper

“By the way, call me when I can see the talking burning bush or 3 fish feed thousands. THAT would be proof.” - MrPiper

“An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” - Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:4)


41 posted on 02/06/2011 5:03:42 PM PST by paulist ("For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." - Philippians 1:21)
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To: MrPiper

By the way, call me when I can see the talking burning bush or 3 fish feed thousands. THAT would be proof....

Respectfully, you probably wouldn’t believe that anyway...Why not just let yourself trust that God is who he says he is and trust in his promises? It won’t hurt you in anyway, rather it will help you tremendously...I can’t prove that either, but believe me, you will never understand how you lived without trusting in God.


42 posted on 02/06/2011 10:10:52 PM PST by phatus maximus ( John 6:29. Learn it, love it, live it.)
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To: wintertime

Dear wintertime: I just want you to know that the only reason I responded to this post by you was to let others know that being a public school teacher is not what you say it is. I want others to know that I and many, many other school teachers like me, are not the “godless”, “collectivist”, “socialists” you say we are. I refuse to be defined by you.

You are very sure of my sins - hypocracy, deception, promoting godlessness, etc. The truth is all of us will one day stand before God and we will then be judged by Him. So, I’ll leave it with Him as to the rightness of my motives in being a public school teacher.

Finally, I want other Freepers to know that the vast majority of public school teachers that I know, love kids and do their very best to teach them the subjects we’ve been hired to teach, and, to impart good, wholesome, even Godly, American values to our students.

I know I will never change wintertime’s opinion, but I hope that, although many of you are very disappointed with the performance of public schools in the last 20 years or so, you will not write off everyone who is trying to make a positive difference. Remember, most of our young people in the country attend public schools and will continue to do so in the years ahead. We need to work hard to improve public schools - I’ve got some thoughts on that below. It’s a bit long, but it is a big subject. I know you will give me a fair hearing.

Public schools, in the United States, are established, funded by, and supervised by each individual state and local “county” (or “parish”). The state government and the local county school district policy makers (i.e. local “school board” - or as wintertime calls them - “THE VOTING MOB, COMRADE COMMITTEE”) are elected and answerable to the voters of that state and county. Each individual state determines the teaching objective standards for graduation and the curriculum for it’s own schools. Each state establishes the qualifications for who can teach in that state.

The local school district hires/fires the school employees in that particular district. The point is – the public schools in your state, district and city are not Federal schools – they are local, state-run institutions . And, just like a lot of things in our country, the federal government has been intruding upon the state public school systems step by step, slowly but surely, over the last 70 years. However, that is beside the point (for now).

The real question is, do individual states have the right to establish public schools and fund them by the tax-dollars of each individual state’s citizenry? Another way to put the question is - is there anything in your state’s constitution that prohibits the establishment of public-funded, public schools by your individual state? If not, then are your state’s public schools just another example of “COLLECTIVIST SOCIALISM!!!” as defined by wintertime?

I think we can agree that expenditures of public funds by your state and local governments to fulfill its obligations as stated by your state’s constitution would not necessarily be “COLLECTIVIST SOCIALISM!!!” as defined by wintertime. I think most of us would agree that expenditures by the state and local government for fire departments, police departments, road maintenance, etc. are not necessarily “SOCIALISM!!!”. As much as I hate the DMV, I’m not sure that the state setting the criteria by which it’s citizens obtain a driver’s license is unconstitutional or “SOCIALISM” either. However, the question is, do state-funded public schools fall under the same category as police departments, fire departments, etc.?

If the citizenry of an individual state wants to establish, fund, and maintain schools to help educate it’s citizen’s children for the benefit of the citizenry as a whole, and, that such expenditures for such a thing is not prohibited by that individual state’s constitution – then is that “SOCIALISM!!!” as defined by wintertime? I’m not so sure that it is. Wintertime makes much of the fact that “government school attendence” is compulsory. That is not really true - it is true that kids are required to get an education - but it dosen’t have to be in the public schools. As far as I know, all the states allow the requirement to be fullfilled by homeschooling and/or private schools.

I think the problem most of us have had with the public school system has been the slow but sure deterioration of the quality of education our children have been receiving over the last 50 years.

But consider and be honest, are our public schools the same today as they were 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago? Weren’t most of you reading and posting articles here on FreeRepublic educated by public schools? I was, and yes there were times I had a bad teacher or two – but, for the most part, I had teachers who did a d—n good job and influenced me for the better as a student and a citizen.

When I was in public school, we opened with the Lord’s Prayer every day. We said the pledge of allegiance. We learned our nation’s proud history – along with some of it’s flaws – but, always with the idea that the United States was the greatest nation, the most giving nation, the most innovative nation and the bravest nation on the planet. I had public school teachers who taught me about how communism and Marxism are utopian ideas – how they lie and use violence to achieve their goals.

I was shown, by my public school civics teacher, how the major media (Newsweek, Time, in particular) slant the news and sometimes outright lie about the specifics of an individual or event.

For the most part, even religion (Christianity in particular) was affirmed and respected by the public schools I attended. I remember in my elementary school that we had a live Nativity scene as part of our annual Christmas program! No one thought anything about it.

So, don’t tell me that the public school system has always been the same and have always been an indoctrinator of our children for “SOCIALISM!!!”. It can be a strong positive educational influence on our children for the individual’s and our nation’s benefit. It can also be a powerful tool of a totalitarian government if the citizenry allow it to be. Our own state and federal governments can become the same thing if we do not stay vigilant.

The local public school district boards are elected by You, the people. The public school curriculum, the standards to be learned by Your students, the qualifications for teachers, along with textbooks, are selected and voted on by Your state government and local school boards. We, as citizens of that individual state have a tremendous amount of influence on what the local public schools do. But, we have to be involved! We have to stay informed! The only reason this Obama speech in the public schools was stopped or curtailed was because the public found out about it and made their voices be heard.

The local state public schools are definitely an easy target and deserve much of the criticism they get. But, if you honestly look at the reasons for many of the public school problems, I think you will see that most of these originate with “outside” influences – the ACLU, the NEA, Federal mandates, Federal courts, lawsuits, etc. When the state public schools accept federal money – then, they have to play according to the Federal government’s rules. But, perhaps the biggest source of the problems facing public schools today is the gradual deterioration of the family and of moral standards in general.

When I was in public school in the 1960’s and early 70’s, single parent homes (no matter what the ethnic group) were the oddity. Today, just the opposite is the norm. When I was in school, discipline was maintained and affirmed by the school and the parents. This is sadly not the case anymore.

These things can be changed – they must be changed. One of several ways to do this is not only to stay informed and involved politically on the local and state level, but also to have more and more conservatives to become teachers and administrators. There are teachers and administrators who are bucking the wave of political correctness and mandates by the ACLU and the NEA. We also need people who go on to higher education and become college professors to reform college educational methods and standards, and to train young teachers. It’s the colleges probably more than anything else that has promoted most of the “educational” idiocy. This can be changed.

My problem with wintertime and others who have similar views about the public school system is that they shoot in the back anyone who advocates improvement of the public school system. According to wintertime, you are part of the problem if you teach in the public schools, if you are an administrator in the public schools, send your kids to public school – even if you are conservative and make positive influences within the system.

Wintertime wants to shut down the public school system – she maintains that they are beyond hope and unconstitutional. I don’t think it is unconstitutional for individual states to establish a public school system and I don’t believe that public schools are beyond hope of conservative influence and sanity. Just like our own government – it has taken many, many years to get to the crisis we are in and it will take years to fix it. We can’t give up! We must not be what Thomas Paine called, “fair-weather patriots”- that only helps the bad side. It will take lots of involvement and hard work, but I believe most would agree that our nation and our schools are worth fixing.


43 posted on 02/07/2011 12:51:03 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: Nevadan
EVERYTHING BELOW are **!!GENERAL!!** OBSERVATIONS ABOUT ALL GOVERNMENT SCHOOLING AND DOES NOT REFER SPECIFICALLY TO ANY FREEPER PERSONALLY!!! ( I have tried to be very careful about that.)

The age group I mentioned at the beginning of the article, teens through early thirties are perhaps vulnerable for a number of reasons;

It is they who have been for the most part deliberately propagandized through our public schools, to develop ‘sensitivity’ to homosexual issues, and to question even their own sexuality, long before they have even entered puberty ( from the article)

When children attend godless schools, and are taught in these schools to think, reason, and view the world through the lens of a godless worldview, this is what we can expect.

So?...Our collectivist government schools have two choices:

**They can teach everything from a godless perspective,

** or they could be God-centered.

Neither of the above worldviews is religiously neutral in content or consequences. Regardless of the worldview chosen the government will be establishing a religious philosophy with profound moral, ethical, and **political** consequences ( see quote above), and taxpayers will be forced under the threat of police action for this religious establishment.

Obviously, if the government chooses a God-centered worldview then which denomination? Shall it start the day with the Muslim call to prayer, the Mormon 13 Articles of Faith, the Lord's prayer, chants to Krishna?

Even our earliest modern collectivist government schools struggled with this question. Riots broke out in Philadelphia in the mid-1800s over which version of the bible was to be used. Finally, the collectivist schools settled on a generic, basically Unitarian, lukewarm Protestantism.

(By the way...We know what Christ does with the lukewarm. He spits them out of his mouth!)

There is no solution to the problem except to begin the process of privatizing all K-12 education. Let these matters be resolved individually by the parents, teachers, and principals in private settings.

I want others to know that I and many, many other school teachers like me, are not the “godless”, “collectivist”, “socialists” you say we are. I refuse to be defined by you. ( Nevadan)

Regardless of the political or religious beliefs of the teachers, government schools in the U.S. are collectivist, socialist-funded, compulsory-funded, compulsory attendance, government owned and run, managed by people's collectives ( school boards), and utterly GODLESS in their religious worldview.

No one is holding a gun to any government teacher's head forcing them to work in these schools. They willingly go to work and willing agree to support a system that teaches children to think, reason, and evaluate everything in their school day ( and homework) in godless manner. They agree to establish and uphold a system of schools that teaches children to think godlessly, and to be comfortable with collectivism; socialism; government ownership and management of their lives ( and now even death); and people's committees ( voting mobs) that regulate their moral, ethical, cultural, political, and ( most important) spiritual indoctrination .

It is the godlessness that has led to the very problem outlined in the essay. Yet...Government teachers, every day, across this nation agree to support this godlessness in our collectivist government schools. Everyday they go into government schools and actually teach their courses in a godless vacuum! If they are Christian, why aren't they working to establish schools in their own churches and working to rescue as many children as possible from this toxic godless stew? Why would they actually agree to feed this poison to the children in their classrooms?

I refuse to be defined by you. ( Nevadan)

Our godless, collectivist, socialist-funded, socialist-managed, compulsory, government owned and run schools define themselves.

As for sin,...It is a sin to teach children to think and reason godlessly. It is a sin to force taxpayers to fund it. It is a sin to force children to attend it. It is a sin to force parents to pay ransom to rescue their children from this religiously NON-neutral toxic stew. (Some call the extra money needed to pay for private schooling and homeschooling "ransom" or "jizna".)

Government schools are NOT religiously neutral. They teach and establish the religious worldview of godlessness!

although many of you are very disappointed with the performance of public schools in the last 20 years or so,

ALL government schools in this nation are godless in their worldview: The academically good, the bad, and the ugly.

All government schools in this nation are socialist-funded, government owned and run, managed by people's collectives: The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Simply by attending children learn to be comfortable with socialism; government ownership and management of their lives; and have the people's committees ( voting mobs) make moral; ethical; **religious**, and political decisions about what they should think and believe.

Regardless of the motivations of the teachers in these godless schools. They are what they are! They are godless! (And..By the way, socialist etc.)

The real question is, do individual states have the right to establish public schools and fund them by the tax-dollars of each individual state’s citizenry?

The fundamental problem here is that government schooling can NOT NOT NOT be religiously, politically, or culturally neutral. There is a fundamental conflict between government schooling and the establishment of religion. NO school ( this includes **all** government schools) can be religiously neutral because **all** schools must choose between either a godless or God-centered worldview. Neither of these worldviews is religiously, culturally, or politically neutral in content or conflict.

"Gotta" go. I am in a rush. ( not proof read).

44 posted on 02/07/2011 6:45:38 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: wintertime

re: “The fundamental problem here is that government schooling can NOT NOT NOT be religiously, politically, or culturally neutral. There is a fundamental conflict between government schooling and the establishment of religion. NO school ( this includes **all** government schools) can be religiously neutral because **all** schools must choose between either a godless or God-centered worldview. Neither of these worldviews is religiously, culturally, or politically neutral in content or conflict.”

Wintertime - you still don’t get it. You continue to make it an “either/or” proposition and, it’s just not true. As I said, you do not define me or any other teacher.


45 posted on 02/07/2011 7:01:26 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: wintertime

And Horace Mann -like true progressive in defense of his ch ch ch changes in education insisted there would always be a place for religion and Morality in the school. Dewey was the one who set educators above anything seen in the church calling them the new apostles.And saying educators not religion could lead us to a better world.


46 posted on 02/07/2011 8:11:02 AM PST by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: Nevadan

Excellent points and thank you for your kind words. But some advice about some of the anti-public school folks here.

**PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS GENERAL AND NOT POINTED TOWARDS ANY SPECIFIC POSTER IN THIS THREAD**

I long ago stopped responding because all responding does is ‘feed the trolls.’ It is no longer possible to have an intellegent discussion on FR about public schools because the anti-public school crowd pounces on every thread with near identical rants. This is somewhat sad as I think that many of us here could be a great support for each other, but we aren’t given that chance.

This is JimRob’s site and apparently this is how he wants it. Cool. But I’ve stopped sending money to FR as I feel my opinions and very presence are unwanted. I lurk from time to time and post from time to time, but my interest has dropped to probably 5% of what it was even an year ago. In fact, I notice that all posting about public schools is a fraction of what it was. And that is because the anti-public school crowd shuts down any meaningful discussion. Money is tight and I can no longer justify my $50 a month donation. Maybe the anti-public school crowd will make up the difference.

So, carry on, and now there are more of us out here in the trenches that is obvious from the posts at FR. I wish we had a forum on a conservative site, this one be nice, but it isn’t to be.

**AGAIN THIS POST WAS NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS ANY POSTER IN THIS THREAD. IF YOU THINK I AM TALKING TO YOU OR ABOUT YOU, YOU ARE MOST LIKELY WRONG**


47 posted on 02/07/2011 8:35:10 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: SoftballMominVA

that should read “This one WOULD be nice...”


48 posted on 02/07/2011 8:42:35 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: Nevadan
You continue to make it an “either/or” proposition and, it’s just not true.

Philosophically how can these two religious philosophies, godless and God-centered, occupy the same time and space? They can't! And...Neither, ( godless or God-centered), is religiously neutral in content or consequences.

If you do not believe this, then please try to describe a school that is simultaneously godless and God-centered. That should be fun to read. My 8th grade nun, Sr. Margaret Aloysius, would have a good laugh if she were alive to read it.

As for consequences, that the author of the article perceives a problem among teens and young adults is directly related to the godless content of their curriculum and being taught to think and reason godlessly in their godless government schools.

As I said, you do not define me or any other teacher.

Who am I? Puny little me?

No, it is the godless, collectivist, government schools that do the defining. Every day, school employees open the doors and willingly make the godless government schools what they are. No one is holding a gun to their heads to make them do what they do...(at least not yet.)

49 posted on 02/07/2011 11:50:20 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: StonyBurk
And Horace Mann -like true progressive in defense of his ch ch ch changes in education insisted there would always be a place for religion and Morality in the school.

Horace Mann was a Unitarian. Unitarians were know for being "progressive". So?...What was forced on American children in the earliest of schools of our modern government system? Answer: A lukewarm and generic Protestantism.

Revelation 3:15-16

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Dewey was the one who set educators above anything seen in the church calling them the new apostles.And saying educators not religion could lead us to a better world.

Dewey the Fabian socialist ( communist). He would be thrilled to see our godless, prison-like, government schools in action.

50 posted on 02/07/2011 12:08:31 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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