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Promising Salvation to Non-Catholics: A Sin against Charity
Catholicism.org ^ | November 2, 2010 | Bro. Andre Marie

Posted on 02/07/2011 8:45:48 AM PST by verdugo

We all hate it when someone makes a promise and doesn’t keep it. “But you promised!” we will say, and, depending on the level of blame and sensitivity of conscience on the part of the offending party, the reaction can be one of great shame. If this is true of promises one is simply unable to keep because circumstances forbade it, it is more so in the case of false promises: that is, those made with no intention of keeping them, or those one had absolutely no authority to make. To promise salvation to a non-Catholic, either directly or indirectly, falls in the latter category as being particularly shameful. It is shameful because it is sinful. It is sinful because it offends not only against faith, but against the greatest Christian virtue: charity.

That the Church has defined there is no salvation outside her means that this proposition is true, and we know it is so with a divinely guaranteed certitude. Genuine charity is rooted in truth. A lie is an affront to truth and therefore an offense against charity. The ontological and psychological connection between truth and charity is a basic Christian concept, whose origin is in the Trinity Itself. Pope Benedict XVI recently highlighted this truth-charity nexus:

To defend the truth, to articulate it with humility and conviction, and to bear witness to it in life are therefore exacting and indispensable forms of charity. Charity, in fact, “rejoices in the truth” (1 Cor 13:6). … Only in truth does charity shine forth, only in truth can charity be authentically lived. (Caritas in Veritate, No. 1, 3, emphasis in original.)

There are various theories regarding how non-Catholics get to heaven as non-Catholics. Many of these have been advanced by churchmen of high rank. Rather than attempt to disprove these opinions in polemical fashion, I would prefer to show the truth of their contrary, and the consequent duty we have in charity not to waver from it. Out of love for God and for our non-Catholic neighbor, we must not give false or even uncertain assurances concerning how salvation is to be attained, and, consequently, how damnation is to be avoided. That would not be “doing the truth in charity” (Eph. 4:15), as St. Paul enjoins upon Christians.

Let’s consider an oft-cited infallible definition:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

We often hear the objection that someone does not need to be a “formal” member of the Church in order to be saved. The implication is that the spiritual trumps the juridical, and that God is not a stickler for names on baptismal registers and the like. But the implication often reaches further than such trivialities, to include what the Church has defined is necessary for salvation. The objection frames the issue of being Catholic in a far-too-juridical way. What makes us inside the Church? Three things: Divine and Catholic Faith (explicit in the principal mysteries — the Trinity and the Incarnation — and at least implicit in all other articles), sacramental baptism, and subjection to the Holy Father. These defining elements of Church membership expounded by St. Robert Bellarmine were authoritatively postulated by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis:

Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.” [I Cor., XII, 13] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [Cf. Eph., IV, 5] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered – so the Lord commands – as a heathen and a publican. [Cf. Matth., XVIII, 17] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit. (No. 22)

There are many people who would not be considered “formal” members of the Church who are, in fact, Catholics in the dogmatic sense. Consider a case I’m personally familiar with: a teenager baptized in a (schismatic) Orthodox church in Russia. Adopted by a Catholic couple when she was about eleven years old, she continued to communicate and confess in the Catholic Church as she had in the Orthodox parish in Russia. The Catholic priest in this country said that as long as she believed in the pope — which she did — she was free to receive the sacraments. Yet I have been assured that, juridically, she is still considered Orthodox. I am fairly certain that her name appears on no Catholic parish register. For all that, she meets the three of the requisites above. This young lady could not be more Catholic. What is important are not the “juridical” issues, but the ecclesiological, sacramental, and “creedal” elements that truly make one a Catholic. Perhaps we can put it in terms that might make a canonist cringe: de facto Catholicism is what matters, not de jure Catholicism.

The overly legalistic analysis strikes me as somewhat disingenuous, too, inasmuch as those who advance it generally accuse us (“Feeneyites”) of being hung up on some sort of formalism. Assuredly we are not; but we are hung up on Catholicism.

Note in the definition of the Council of Florence that “pagans, … Jews and heretics and schismatics” are all categorically described as “existing outside the Catholic Church” and, consequently, they cannot “have a share in life eternal.” With only two exceptions, those “outside” the Church according to Florence correspond exactly to those not included as “members” by Pius XII. Those exceptions are 1) unbaptized believers (e.g., catechumens), whom Florence does not mention in Cantate Domino, but whom Pius XII clearly states are not members; and 2) excommunicates, whom Florence does not mention.

The unbaptized catechumen and analogous individuals bear a certain close relationship to the Church, as they have her faith, assent to her government, and seek her sacraments. I don’t see the need to be preoccupied with this question, as some are. God will provide for His own, and these people are His by those ties I’ve just mentioned. God will not cast off anyone who perseveres in His grace.1 Regarding excommunicates, we know from the grave nature of excommunication that those who die in that terrible state — if they really are excommunicated in foro interno — are lost. What concerns me most are the “pagans, … Jews and heretics and schismatics” that do not have the Church’s faith, do not assent to her government, and may or may not have a sacrament or two, or even seven. The Church infallibly assures us that those who fit these descriptions are not in the way of salvation and that “that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her.” Jesus commands us in the Holy Gospels to preach the unvarnished Catholic Gospel to these. If we let human respect get in the way of the great mandate, we damn ourselves.

These categories are not beyond comprehension. “Pagans” (or the synonymous “infidels”) would include not only unbelievers like atheists and agnostics, idolators like Hindus, or pantheists like Buddhists, but also Muslims, whom the Catholic world lumped into the category “pagan” in the fifteenth century when the Florentine Fathers met. “Jews” are hardly in need of explanation. They identify themselves as such. The words “heretic” and “schismatic” are rarely used in common parlance today, even in ecclesiastical circles, for they are considered “divisive” and even rude. Yet, the Church not only officially uses the words, but also clearly defines them in the current (1983) Code of Canon Law:

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Elsewhere in the Code (1364 §1), we are informed that members of all three categories here mentioned automatically excommunicate themselves from the Church: “An apostate from the faith, a heretic or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication…”.

I am very well aware that theologians distinguish between formal and material heresy as well as between formal and material schism. These are perfectly legitimate distinctions. Someone baptized and brought up in an alien sect will inevitably be, for a time anyway, merely in material heresy or schism. Before the age of reason, it’s not even a question: the child is a Catholic plain and simple. There are no infant Lutherans, Syrian Jacobites, or Serbian Orthodox — only pagan ones and Catholic ones. At what point one brought up in such a sect formally adheres to heresy or schism is God’s business and I’ll not lose the least amount of sleep over the question. What is the duty of the Church, however, and what ought to make us lose a few winks, is the duty we have to witness to the truth of where salvation is to be found. To keep people somnolent in their errors is just plain damnable. Let us suppose for a moment that one of the infants we’ve just considered lives to his teens in a blissful merely material heresy. Supposing he commits a mortal sin? Where does he seek forgiveness? Let’s say that his particular denomination believes that sin cannot separate us from God’s love — as so many believe? What then? Will the same priest who puts the fear of God into a Catholic boy struggling against vice do a volte-face and assure the non-Catholic suffering the same moral afflictions a place in Paradise should he die — even though he will not seek the sacrament of God’s mercy because his parents taught him it’s a popish abomination?

Indifferentism breeds strange contradictions.

While these distinctions are real, and have a valuable place in Catholic theology, they are not intended to contradict the plain meaning of dogma. Theology is meant to serve the revealed word, not to annul it.

The explanation that I recently read on the blog of a particularly intelligent priest, to the effect that God can save someone outside the Church very much misses the point. To argue from God’s sheer power while prescinding from His revelation is a dangerous thing. God could, by His naked omnipotence, use me — who am not a priest — to confect the Eucharist, couldn’t He? By His omnipotence, God could arrange for a child of our own times to be immaculately conceived. Neither of these things entails an inherent contradiction like squaring a circle, but both contradict defined dogma. It would be wiser to believe that God’s grace and providence will make things happen in conformity to His revelation — despite the apparent “unlikeliness” of it.

If we trust God’s grace, justice, and mercy to conform perfectly to the dogmatic teaching of His Church, we will never regret it. And that, I can promise.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
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1 posted on 02/07/2011 8:45:53 AM PST by verdugo
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To: verdugo

Really? Do all non-Catholics go to Hell?


2 posted on 02/07/2011 8:48:48 AM PST by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: Texas Eagle

Cheer up, at least we won’t have to listen to an eternal lecture. LOL


4 posted on 02/07/2011 8:50:00 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: verdugo
...unless before death they are joined with Her;

You spell "her" with a capital, "H", eh? Interesting.

5 posted on 02/07/2011 8:50:27 AM PST by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: cripplecreek

LOL. In Latin, no less.


6 posted on 02/07/2011 8:52:02 AM PST by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: verdugo
That the Church has defined there is no salvation outside her

Glad I didn't go to 'the Church' for my salvation.

7 posted on 02/07/2011 8:53:51 AM PST by LearnsFromMistakes (Yes, I am happy to see you. But that IS a gun in my pocket.)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: verdugo
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
9 posted on 02/07/2011 8:56:57 AM PST by DannyTN
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To: Texas Eagle

LOL!

As a Bible based Chrisitan, I know some Catholics will go to heaven ... but it won’t be because of charity. It will be because they have a personal relationship with Christ and rejected praying TO Mary, and other dead sinners.


10 posted on 02/07/2011 8:57:08 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Texas Eagle

Interesting, it is, is it not? We sure don’t.

As for salvation, Christ says, “many who are inside are outside, and outside inside.”

Just being a member doesn’t guarantee you salvation, and nor does being outside bar the door.

What the Catholic church teaches is that those who have not heard of Christ, can still be saved at the last judgement, by the works of their heart, (those who, in their ignorance, still follow the commands of their conscience become a law unto themselves), as it says in Romans.


11 posted on 02/07/2011 8:58:39 AM PST by BenKenobi (one of the worst mistakes anybody can make is to bet against Americans.")
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To: LearnsFromMistakes

No building or GROUP or some old guy with a hige ego, like the Pope or even Mary can NOT save you!

Only CHRIST can save and belief in Him is required as well as obedience to the best of your ability.


12 posted on 02/07/2011 8:58:55 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

We don’t pray to mary.

She prays for us.


13 posted on 02/07/2011 8:59:20 AM PST by BenKenobi (one of the worst mistakes anybody can make is to bet against Americans.")
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To: Texas Eagle

I would hope not. I’m Catholic, and my Wife and 2 year old Daughter are Protestant.


14 posted on 02/07/2011 8:59:26 AM PST by mrmeyer ("When brute force is on the march, compromise is the red carpet." Ayn Rand)
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To: BenKenobi

You can NOT get to heaven by GOOD WORKS!


15 posted on 02/07/2011 8:59:46 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

Great, except she’s not dead. God is a God of the living, not of the dead.


16 posted on 02/07/2011 9:00:18 AM PST by BenKenobi (one of the worst mistakes anybody can make is to bet against Americans.")
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To: nmh

Again, we don’t worship Mary & the Saints. We ask for their intercession as we go to the Lord.

If the “Catholics” you a referring to reject the Church’s belief in the Communion of Saints, they are not Catholics.


17 posted on 02/07/2011 9:01:01 AM PST by surroundedbyblue
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To: verdugo
We all hate it when someone makes a promise and doesn’t keep it. “But you promised!” we will say, and, depending on the level of blame and sensitivity of conscience on the part of the offending party, the reaction can be one of great shame. If this is true of promises one is simply unable to keep because circumstances forbade it, it is more so in the case of false promises: that is, those made with no intention of keeping them, or those one had absolutely no authority to make. To promise salvation to a non-Catholic, either directly or indirectly, falls in the latter category as being particularly shameful. It is shameful because it is sinful. It is sinful because it offends not only against faith, but against the greatest Christian virtue: charity.

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

What makes us inside the Church? Three things: Divine and Catholic Faith (explicit in the principal mysteries — the Trinity and the Incarnation — and at least implicit in all other articles), sacramental baptism, and subjection to the Holy Father. These defining elements of Church membership expounded by St. Robert Bellarmine were authoritatively postulated by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis:

Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.

18 posted on 02/07/2011 9:01:52 AM PST by verdugo
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To: verdugo
To promise salvation to a non-Catholic, either directly or indirectly, falls in the latter category as being particularly shameful.

It's also shameful to promise salvation to Catholics.

Human beings can't save anyone. We can't do something for someone to save them, and they can't do anything for themselves to save themselves.

Jesus did what was necessary to provide salvation. He gave us the promises. The best we humans can do is to point others to Jesus and let the Lord do the rest.

19 posted on 02/07/2011 9:03:07 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: nmh

You need to read Romans.

Paul says, (In the KJV):

Romans 2:14-5

“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)”


20 posted on 02/07/2011 9:03:28 AM PST by BenKenobi (one of the worst mistakes anybody can make is to bet against Americans.")
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To: LearnsFromMistakes

“Glad I didn’t go to ‘the Church’ for my salvation”

That’s what I was thinking. Jesus promised me salvation, not the church. But I guess I can’t blame them for believing non Catholics won’t go to heaven since many Catholics don’t believe Catholics will go to heaven either.


21 posted on 02/07/2011 9:04:12 AM PST by happilymarriedmom
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To: verdugo
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her
Who, then, can be saved?

Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments.
Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found.
Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled.
Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will.
Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.

God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted. But that same grace brings obligations to all who receive it. They must not receive the grace of God in vain. Much will be demanded of those to whom much is given.

-- concluding paragraph (formatting mine), from the thread Who Can Be Saved?,by Cardinal Avery Dulles, found at Catholic Education Resource Center
22 posted on 02/07/2011 9:10:02 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy

So which is it?

Is it because the Church is too lax or stringent?

Seems Protestants can’t agree on what the Church actually teaches...


23 posted on 02/07/2011 9:12:14 AM PST by BenKenobi (one of the worst mistakes anybody can make is to bet against Americans.")
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To: verdugo

This group is is schism with the Catholic church and does not have authority to speak for the Catholic Church. They originally broke away with Father Feeney


24 posted on 02/07/2011 9:13:23 AM PST by jroneil (Cut government in 1/2)
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To: Texas Eagle

I believe the site is from Schismatics who are either ultra trads or sedevacanists or perhaps both. So they’re opinion is not supported by the official teaching of the Catholic Church.


25 posted on 02/07/2011 9:13:46 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: verdugo; All
To whom it may concern.........

About Br. Andre Marie.....

"He entered as a postulant for the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in May of 1993, and went on to the novitiate on Christmas of that year. He made profession of vows on Epiphany of 1996.

Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary........

"Our Crusade was begun by Father Leonard Feeney, who strove to combat the liberalizing of Catholic dogma which he saw as a major impediment to the conversion of America."

26 posted on 02/07/2011 9:15:52 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: cripplecreek

Wading through catholic law,, reminds me of needing to memorize and adhere to the US tax code. Funny how Jesus himself made it rather simple.


27 posted on 02/07/2011 9:20:34 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: marshmallow
Indeed, and apparently, the group he belongs to has been recognized by their local bishop in NH.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=503967

28 posted on 02/07/2011 9:21:28 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: verdugo

I believe in one catholic and apostolic church.

That’s catholic with a small “c”.

So it may be correct to say that there is no salvation outside of the one catholic and apostolic church. You just don’t have to be a member of the Roman branch of it.


29 posted on 02/07/2011 9:21:55 AM PST by DManA
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To: Texas Eagle
TO ALL NON-CATHOLICS:

What I posted is Catholic doctrine, not my own invention. I didn't make this a Catholic Caucus, because, obviously, it affects all non-Catholics, HOWEVER, the details of the doctrine is really for Catholics only.

Be assured that it is unchangeable Catholic doctrine, and is posted for your salvation. If you don't believe the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is God, then why get all upset and unraveled by the article? I certainly don't loose one minute of sleep over what any YOPIOS or any other religion has to say about anything, as far as a Catholic is concerned, they are just one of gazillion opinions out there on the road to perdition.

If any non-Catholic has any sincere questions about the matter, I will answer them, but, know that this tread is really intended for Catholics.

God Bless,

30 posted on 02/07/2011 9:22:41 AM PST by verdugo
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To: verdugo

So why not go to some Roman Catholic forum and discuss it with you fellow Roman Catholics. Why clog up this one?


31 posted on 02/07/2011 9:28:34 AM PST by DManA
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To: verdugo

I have some questions:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.


32 posted on 02/07/2011 9:32:53 AM PST by strider44
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To: BenKenobi

To be fair, a great many Catholics can’t decide what the Catholic church teaches. This thread is evidence of that.

Now, if you want to talk about the shenanigans among us Lutherans, grab a beer and sit down. It will take a while!


33 posted on 02/07/2011 9:33:50 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: verdugo

” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that -> whoever believes in Him <- shall not perish but -> have eternal life. <- “ - Jesus Christ

Apparently, Jesus Christ says something quite different than the doctrinal position you espouse here.

Let me consider this carefully... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

OK, I’m going with the plain, clear, truthful words of the Savior over man-made doctrines that contradict His words!

If you have sincere questions about Christ’s words, I will answer them.

:-) Best
ampu


34 posted on 02/07/2011 9:38:46 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: marshmallow
If you are sincere in your ignorance of the matter, please also forward this to your ALL list, so that we can get this issue out of the way without wasting any further time:

The group, The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, is recognized by their local bishop in NH, and the Pope in Rome.

From: http://catholicism.org/new-mass-schedule-at-ihm-chapel-in-richmond.html

The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary All Masses are in the traditional Roman Rite (Extraordinary Form) and are offered with the approbation of the Ordinary of the Diocese of Manchester, N.H. Our Mass schedule is as follows —

Sunday Masses: 7:30 AM Low Mass, 9:30 AM High Mass (with Rosary preceding at 9:00).

Daily Mass: 7:30 AM Low Mass.

35 posted on 02/07/2011 9:39:11 AM PST by verdugo
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To: strider44

strider44,

a-j are written to JEWS. Not applicable to Christians. A better question is, “do they still apply to Jews.” Perhaps you should ask a Jew. They can speak very well for themselves.

ampu


36 posted on 02/07/2011 9:40:35 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Texas Eagle
You spell "her" with a capital, "H", eh? Interesting.

"H"er is the Church... the Bride of Christ.

37 posted on 02/07/2011 9:43:21 AM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: verdugo

So your purpose here is to proselytize?


38 posted on 02/07/2011 9:44:28 AM PST by DManA
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To: BenKenobi
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

39 posted on 02/07/2011 9:44:56 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Alex Murphy
Cardianl Avery Dulles is fallible. Moreover, he is a Progressivist, a punishment from God upon Catholics and non-Catholics. The two postings below describe his type:

"As Catholics live among those who are of false religions, and often have the most intimate connections with them, they naturally and laudable contract a love and affection for them. This makes them at first unwillingly to think that their friends are out of the way of salvation, then they proceed to wish and hope that they may be saved, then they call into question that that is so. In this, they grab at every pretext to persuade themselves that their friends can be saved in their own religion. It has become the fashion to think and believe that an uncovenanted mercy is to be found in God for Jews, Mohamedans, and those of false religions. Fashion is a powerful persuasive against which even good people are not always immune. When a Catholic hears these liberal sentiments every day resounding in his ears, and anything that seems contrary to them, ridiculed and condemned. He eventually yields to the delusion. The real reason that Catholics adopt this loose way of thinking, is that they are ignorant of the grounds of their religion, they don't examine the matter thoroughly, and once they are infected by the spirit of the day, they become unwilling to examine any further. They even get angry if any zealous friend should attempt to undeceive them. Grasping at the false reasoning that favors this loose way of thinking, they refuse to open their mind to the truth".

- Orestes Brownson (1803-1876), Brownson's Quarterly Review ( American born, former New England Transcendentalist and colleague of Channing, Emerson, and Hawthorne. Published Brownson's Quarterly Review from his conversion to Catholicism in 1844, until within three years of his death.)

"Why God would allow these "ambiguities" to occur in Vatican II. (and other magisterial documents)?

Considering all that I have said thus far, especially concerning the ulterior motives of the liberal prelates and their virtual hijacking of Vatican II, I think Scripture has an answer as to why God would allow these "ambiguities" to occur. In short, there is an interesting working principle in Scripture. As a punishment for your sin, God will allow you to pursue, and be condemned by, what you sinfully desire. This is what I believe happened at Vatican II. The progressivist bishops and theologians sought for a way to push their heterodox ideas into the Church, so God allowed them to do so, as a witness and judgment against them. He would allow the Council to have its "ambiguities" so that those who would interpret them contrary to nineteen centuries of established Catholic dogma, would lead themselves into sin, and ultimately into God's judgment. Unfortunately, as is always the case, the sheep suffer for what the shepherds do wrong, and as a result, we have all been wandering in the spiritual desert of liberal theology for the past 40 years. (Article from Catholic Family News, Feb 2003, by Robert Sungenis)(1)

(1) In fact, the bad shepherds may be a chastisement for the sins of the sheep. Saint John Eudes, basing his words on Sacred Scripture, says that when God wants to punish his people, he sends them bad priests. See The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations, by Saint John Eudes, Chapter 2, "Qualities of a Holy Priest". (New York: P.J. Kenedy and Sons, 1947).

Vatican II is a punishment from God. It is a snare, a siren song to RUN AWAY FROM! Do not seek any answers about the Faith from Vatican II or any theologian that refers to it.

40 posted on 02/07/2011 9:47:49 AM PST by verdugo
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To: BenKenobi
We don’t pray to mary.

She prays for us.

Official Catholic teaching is that Catholics do indeed pray TO saints (for intercession, of course).

As a non-Catholic (former Catholic), I've defended Catholics on this point as to the reasonableness of the position. (I assume saints are indeed living and can hear us).

Where I differ with my Catholic friends is with respect to the efficacy of asking Mary or another saint multiple times to "pray for us." When I ask a friend to pray for me, he hears it the first time. I don't have to call him 100 times within the hour and keep asking him again. :-)

41 posted on 02/07/2011 9:48:27 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: strider44

I realize your list is written in a sarcastic and/or humorous way, but here is a response nevertheless. Most of the laws you quote were civil laws expressly written for and observed by the children of Israel and worked well for maintaining civil order. Some of these laws concerning hygiene were amazing considering they knew nothing about germs at that time. Some sound strange to us because they are taken out of cultural context, such as “if a man sells his daughter as a slave...” Others of these are external forms of laws that were later “written on our hearts and minds” under the new covenant of Jesus Christ. Now our body is the temple and the sacrifice is complete in the cross.


42 posted on 02/07/2011 9:49:16 AM PST by Drawsing (The fool shows his annoyance at once. The prudent man overlooks an insult. (Proverbs 12:16))
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To: verdugo

Thankfully, there’s at least one person who disagrees:

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

2 Peter 3:9

Doesn’t say a word about Catholicism, but rather about saving faith in Jesus Christ.


43 posted on 02/07/2011 9:50:27 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg ("It's hard to take the president seriously." - Jim DeMint)
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To: BenKenobi

I’ve read the entire Bible.

It’s all about the HEART. It’s NOT about praying TO Mary or other dead sinners. What is in your heart comes out through your actions. Elevating Mary to the level of Christ is WRONG on so many levels. Traditions and rituals won’t get you there either. Saying 52,000 Hail Mary’s and 700 Out Fathers won’t matter either.

Try reading this passage and applying it:

Matt.6:7

[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


44 posted on 02/07/2011 9:51:58 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: verdugo
Vatican II is the official doctrine of the Roman Church. Doesn't that make you a schismatic?

Vatican II is a punishment from God. It is a snare, a siren song to RUN AWAY FROM!

45 posted on 02/07/2011 9:54:27 AM PST by DManA
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To: strider44

What you don’t understand is that the Jews in the OLD Testament were making Judiasm a LEGALISTIC ritual and the Priests were HYPOCRITES. Maybe that could help clear your head.

The problem is that you WANT to believe what you do. You do NOT want serious discussion. You simply want to mock Christians and Jews.

There is something else you should note. The Bible RECORDS what people did. It doesn’t necessarily CONDONE what people did. For example, no where does it work out well for men to have MUTLIPLE WIVES. Yet it happens all the time. The intermarrying for political reasons was routinely done and that didn’t work out well either. Why? Because from the beginning it was to be ONE man for ONE woman. Finally Christ calrified that as well as the deciples because the people were not being obedient and obeying the prophets.


46 posted on 02/07/2011 9:56:36 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Larry Lucido

I assume saints are indeed living and can hear us

I don’t believe that is a defensible assumption. I believe the dead leave this space time continuum.


47 posted on 02/07/2011 9:57:02 AM PST by DManA
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To: verdugo

Wow! As a Buddhist I must really be in deep do-do. Where do I sign up for this Catholic thingy?

And yet, it’s not as simple as I first thought: Moslems torture and kill me in this life if I don’t convert, and then Allah sends me to hell. Catholics at least won’t torture and kill me in this life (at this point in history, anyway . . . probably) - yet they still expect the Catholic God to send me to hell after I die - a kinder and gentler, more “charitable” posture, I suppose.

So, who has jurisdiction? Do I end up in the Moslem hell or the Catholic one? Or both? Do the eternal sentences run consecutively? Do I get any say in this, any appeal? And how does this fit in with the whole endowed by my Creator with certain inalienable rights thing? Inquiring Buddhists want to know.


48 posted on 02/07/2011 10:02:10 AM PST by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: DManA
re; So your purpose here is to proselytize?

My purpose is to save souls from damnation, nothing new for Catholics, the popes have been proclaiming it forever :

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: “Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra: “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which [b]no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

Proclamations of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium

In addition to the ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) proclamations of the popes, a Catholic must also believe what is taught by the Catholic Church as divinely revealed in her Ordinary and Universal Magisterium (Magisterium = the teaching authority of the Church): Pope Pius IX, Vatican I, Sess. III, Chap. 3, ex cathedra: “Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed.”

the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium does not actually have to be considered at all in regard to Outside the Church There is No Salvation, because this dogma has been defined from the Chair of Peter and nothing in the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium can possibly contradict the Chair of Peter. Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio, 590‐604: “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.” Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351: “In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”

Pope St. Pius V, Bull excommunicating the heretic Queen Elizabeth of England, Feb. 25, 1570: “The sovereign jurisdiction of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, has been given by Him [Jesus Christ], unto Whom all power in Heaven and on Earth is given, the King who reigns on high, but to one person on the face of the Earth, to Peter, prince of the Apostles... If any shall contravene this Our decree, we bind them with the same bond of anathema.”

Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824: “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: “We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation. In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation.”

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.” Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscum (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics).”

Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 ‐ Proposition 16: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned

Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900: “Christ is man’s ‘Way’; the Church also is his ‘Way’… Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain.”

Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: “Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…”

Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: “The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society. Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station ad office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.”

49 posted on 02/07/2011 10:02:58 AM PST by verdugo
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To: strider44
Nice post. I think these religious threads most of the time breed animosity among members of free republic. In my opinion if you believe in individual liberty and a small government put the religion questions aside. There appear to be many on this thread that have no problem with government enforcing their god's viewpoint of morality.

Of course you have every right to proselytize, until the person tells you to stop. The catholic church has every right to teach that everyone outside the church has a soul that is in mortal danger. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson it neither breaks my bones or pricks my flesh.

Considering we have a constitution that allows us to violate 7 of the ten commandments I find it funny when people want them posted all over the place.

50 posted on 02/07/2011 10:06:06 AM PST by armordog99
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