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Old scandal article
Skip to comments.Pope includes Hindu verses in prayers on Good Friday
Posted on 02/08/2011 7:12:21 AM PST by Gamecock
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Anyone catch B-16 comments on ‘New Age’ religions?
Try reading *Eternity in Their Hearts* by Don Richardson.
He provides many examples of redemptive analogies in various cultures which prepare them for receiving the Gospel. He does a specific treatment of the Unknown God scenario.
He also has some interesting things to say about secular anthropologists and how they’ve corrupted people’s thinking about things like was mentioned upthread.
Things like the similarities between pagan and Christian beliefs and which came first. His contention is that in cases where there are similarities, it’s because the true facts have been twisted. So, it isn’t that Christianity isn’t any different than any other religion because it has a God-man account,but rather the other religions have the God-man account because it started out as truth and got corrupted.
Who's judging? Only God has the authority to condemn.
But Christ was very clear in Matthew 7:20 "You will KNOW them by their fruit [deeds]" that someone's actions are how we are to discern truth from error. If you want to ignore Christ's command to be discerning knock your socks off.
Another verse: "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction." (II Timothy 4:2)
There is more than one type of judgment. One is solely God's domain: condemnation. The other we are commanded to do in II Timothy above. If you can't make any type of judgements as to right and wrong, truth from error, how are you going to obey that verse?
Oh, sure it was. < eyes rolling>
I think you could very well be deluded. Thus in a Matrix. Catholics cannot be open to reality when all their beliefs and practices are determined by the Leadership of their church and it’s authority over you, over that of Christ and His written word....who Is the rightful authority.
You state the Ecuharist is the central act of your faith. Where in Christianity the Ressurection is central...He Lives! and celebration of that. Without the Ressurection the Crucifixion is meaningless.
only 26% of [Roman et al] Catholics strongly agree that The Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches
only 33% of American [Roman eg al] Catholics strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth
" . . . only 9% of [Roman et al] Catholics strongly DISAGREE that if a person is generally good, or does enough good things for others they will earn a place in Heaven [salvation on the basis of merit]."
" . . . only 17% of [Roman et al] Catholics strongly DISAGREE that Satan is just a symbol of evil [rather than a real being]"
" . . . only 43% of [Roman et al] Catholics said they were absolutely committed to Christianity,"
"Volunteer church work (during past 7 days): Assemblies of God were highest at 30%, with the lowest going to Catholics at 12%.^8"
72% of Protestants vs 42% of [Roman et al] Catholics affirmed that homosexual sexual activity was sinful.
79% of [Roman et al] Catholics affirmed "Many religions can lead to eternal life."
"40% of Roman Catholics see abortion as "morally acceptable"
"88% of [Roman et al] Catholics believe that they can practice artificial means of birth control and still be considered good [Roman et al] Catholics."
"Only 30% of Catholics affirmed they believe they are really and truly receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine."
Only "26 percent of [Roman et al] Catholics polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivoval position on abortion. Catholic World Report; Roper Center for Public Opinion Research at the University of Connecticut."
"Only 20 percent strongly agreed with the Church teaching that only men may be ordained. ^Roper Center for Public Opinion "
"Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants. Alan Guttmacher Institute http://www.catholicleague.org/research/Catholic_women_and_abortion.htm
The above gathered from:
OK, RC'S start your
. . . errr start your WEASEL WORDS AND RATIONALIZATIONS!
OH, RIGHT, the weaselword troops and the rationalization brigade are already fast at work. What an unsurprise.
You use the story of the “Unknown God” to no avail. Hindu Gods are Known and worshipped as such....you have missed the point of the story entirely.
I've either traded posts with you or felt you raised an interesting point - but I must return to the real (non-FR) world now. I hope that my contributions and your responses have been civil and friendly (with one unfortunate exception.)
Much of the argument revolves around the central theme posted by the original poster:
So what degree of paganism is acceptable? 18.4% 71.9%?
My response is : The degree of paganism that is in harmony with Natural Law.
As was pointed out, there was nothing in that passage that was offensive to Christianity, and making a historical allusion to it was not in my view any embracing of paganism, any more than a literary allusion would be.
Reciting a Hindu prayer - not good. Referencing an idea from history that is in harmony with Christian belief - OK. Again IMHO.
There is much more of classical paganism in Christianity, Protestant AND Catholic, than many of you would care to admit. The idea of the LOGOS ("Word") comes directly from Neo-Platonic thought that was dominant in the "Civilized World" (Roman Empire) in philosophical circles at the time Christianity was at its ascendancy.
In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We Catholics believe that Natural Law is written into every human heart by God, and human nature demands that we seek it. That some pagan philosophers may have found a nugget of Natural Law does not render that nugget untrue.
When Christ became incarnate, he lighted the way to Natural Law so that we would no longer struggle to find it on our own. We Catholics believe that the one, holy catholic and apostolic church is the complete fulfillment of that Natural Law.
If that notion is too pagan for many of you - so be it. It is a hard saying, who can believe it?
Or that a UFO ET personage at Fatima is the authentic Mary?
Don't forget the Jews. The ones in Israel, not the "Joos" in NYC.
Judge from the Merriam-Webster thesaurus.
4) to have as an opinion (I judge that he knew what kind of woman she was when he married her)
Synonyms allow [chiefly Southern & Midland], conceive, consider, deem, esteem, feel, figure, guess, hold, imagine, judge, reckon [chiefly dialect], suppose, think, regard, view; accept, perceive; depend, rely, trust; assume, presume, presuppose, surmise; conclude, deduce, infer.....
At such lofty levels,
they KNOW what the gifts will be beforehand.
They leave nothing to chance in such meetings—particularly a photo-op.
I guess I should have said, “The point of Good Friday services is to remind us of what occurred on that day”.
You can agree or disagree whether or not it’s a good idea to remember the Sacrifice Christ made on Good Friday. I don’t care. The point is though, for that kind of service, on Good Friday, it’s perfectly acceptable to pray, “lead us from darkness to light” because that’s exactly what Christ did when He died on Good Friday. He descended into the grave, surely a “dark” place, and then proceeded to destroy our slavery to the grave, thus leading us to “light”.
But again, please don’t let me stop you if your intention is to blast the Pope. Even if he doesn’t deserve it. Which he doesn’t, if one views this situation objectively.
Yes it is about Salvation....One cannot be a Christian apart from being saved. Either you are saved or not...there is no middle road. Therefore if the vast majority of catholics have no certainty of their Salvation then one would determine they have need to be assured..one way or another before they can lay claim to Christian.
How does quoting from a Hindi sacred text, that conveys a philosophy that is in complete agreement with Christianity - in any way placing another god before God?
If I greet a Hindi practioner, and say “Namaste” - in your view, am I being blastphemous? I would say not. There are good ideas found in many religions - that ‘invent’ new ways to praise God in everyday life, that we have either abandoned or never considered.
“In Sikh scripture Namaste, Namastung or Namastvung is referenced as salutation to the Primal being, the One God. The salutation is followed by an attribute respecting a quality of the creator of all religions, Akal. Sikhs say “Sat Sri Akaal” instead of namaste .
In Nepalese culture, namaste is performed when a younger family member meets older relatives. It also varies depending upon social status and prestige. The person with lower status or prestige performs namaste first to show respect for the higher station the other person has achieved.
Namaste is also used as a friendly greeting in written communication, or generally between people when they meet. When used at funerals to greet the guests, the verbal part is usually omitted. When the hand position is higher, it usually means reverence and/or worship. The expression with hands placed on top of one’s head is usually the sign of utmost reverence or respect. When the gesture is performed with hands in front of the chest, it is usually considered as aayushman.
The aayushman gesture is also a cultural symbol of Sri Lanka and Sri Lankan hospitality.
In Sindh, Pakistan, the gesture of namaste, though extremely rare, is still maintained even by Sindhi Muslims.
The cabin crews of Air India, SriLankan Airlines and Air France, Emirates and Virgin Atlantic on their flights to India use namaste to greet boarding and deplaning passengers and in other hospitality settings.”
Actually, that statement should not be a surprise to anyone who has perused the Roman Catholic Catechism, which teaches such.
Case in point:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Can't wait to see what you and the other usual suspects dig up.
As for the substance of the article and the images, I'm shocked, SHOCKED!! that humans make mistakes or possibly that others may mistakenly interpret things. Let me know when the Pope makes a dogmatic pronouncement regarding Kalie.
Well these guys gave the whole catholic Fatima alter for Hindu worship and caused quite the scuttlebutt! Of course the catholic church denied...they are experts at coverups.
Yep, and so is the ALL CAPS brigade that has to scream to make a point.
conceive, consider, deem, esteem, feel, figure, guess, hold, imagine, judge, reckon [chiefly dialect], suppose, think, regard, view; accept, perceive; depend, rely, trust; assume, presume, presuppose, surmise; conclude, deduce, infer.....
How are you going to obey II Timothy 4:2 "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction."
Or does it even really matter to you whether or not you obey the commands of Christ?
>>they KNOW what the gifts will be beforehand.<<
And just like the rest of the “Arab Street” are willing to do what needs to be done to get that photo op.
A seventy-nine year old with Parkinson’s disease was handed a book with writing he didn’t understand and he kissed the gift.
The most I would call it is “unfortunate”.
The Muslims and MSM call it “Gotcha”!
So if a New Age Spiritulist prays this it's perfectly acceptable? Because they do. The fact is the Pope acknowledged the beliefs of the Hindu faith.....to those of the Hindu faith....which for them was an acceptance of their practices and pagan Gods in THEIR eyes. Rather than exposing their beliefs as false...which Christ would have done and did and continues to do today.
Ah yes catechism #841. I’ve posted that many times.
Btw: that catechism proves there is a 90% probability the book the Pope is kissing IS in fact the Koran.
But to drag it into a worship service?
Get your stones ready!
I admire you greatly!
Well the arguement could be made if it was a quote or not...damage control in Catholicism is renowned as we know. However Christianity is not a "philosphy" nor should be aligned with those whose are. Rather as Christians we called to stand for the truth and oppose false teachings and religions...just as Christ did.
The problem is increased for the Popes push to unite the various religions...which this act supports as does others he has performed...and will continue do so as he marches the catholic church toward a one world religion. Along with this the deceptions the masses will be under and for that follow. Catholics are wired to to follow their leadership...even against their own common sense.
Thank you DannyTN
“But then I remember Paul who used the pagan statue of the unknown God to teach pagans about the One God.”
Maybe you should be rebuking Paul too.
Those already completely invested in the idea that the Catholic Church can do no right have no time for such reasoned and thoughtful arguments, although non-inmates of the asylum and other passers-by may receive some lasting benefit.
No one has to trash the Pope and the Catholic faith...they do this on their own......time and time again. The problem is those within the catholic faith who simply accept and abide by whatever is determined, performed or spoken by their leadership, regardless if it stands the test of scripture or not...of the truths Christ taught us or not. Further they cannot know what is true until they themsleves read and understand Gods word....which most do not. Therefore they will continue to be mislead down a road which at one point they will not be able to return from.
Are you so reformed that you have nothing better to do than bash other Christians?
Are you such a perfect Christian, that you main focus in life is not to practice your faith but to admonish other people's faith?
I suspect that is not the case at all and that quite possibly your behavior is a symptom...a telling behavior...and that it is most likely indicative of someone who is rather uncomfortable in their own beliefs.
Perhaps you may not believe your religion is all that “Reformed” after all...?
MOST Protestants believe Catholics are Christians. Maybe your interpretation of scripture is a bit off.
That's okay though. You've just demonstrated more than once the classic ad hominem fallacy. 1) Don't respond to the statement (in this instance the mention of Jesus' statement 'You will KNOW them by their fruit'), 2) instead direct the focus OFF of that statement, and attack the person (me) by attempting to re-direct the argument from 'KNOW them by their fruits' to the dreaded 'don't judge' misinterpretation of scripture, 3) thereby impugning my character so the initial point of the argument is lost.
You not only do this once, you've done it yet a THIRD time by telling me to get 'my rocks ready'.
LOL indeed. By adopting this debate strategy you've already lost the debate. :)
Now a FOURTH time now I will re-ask the question to see if you're going to repeat the same fallacy over again:
II Tim. 4:2 says, "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction."
How are you going to reprove or rebuke if you can't JUDGE that someone is in ERROR?
This is one of my favorite quotes from a fellow FReeper
“Too many here cant wait to unzip their dogma and swing it around in an obnoxious superiority dance.”
That’s how I see these threads. It’s one of the reasons I give up FR for lent. Seems the 40 days before Easter brings them out of the woodwork. Especially during The Easter Triduum. They “love” us SOOOO much, I have to go to confession!
Well thank you so much Netmilsmom; and Jacknhoo, for what my opinion’s worth, your post nailed it
Another reason to question highly who is or not Christian in the catholic church.
Hindu pagan rituals at a Catholic Mass.
Thanks but I'll pass, you're doing a fine job all by yourself. You've missed the main point (yet again).
The Pope isn't referring to an UNKNOWN god by which to present the Gospel. The Hindu God is very much a KNOWN god the Pope is seeking to unify with the same as has been done with Islam in your very own catechism #841.
If the Pope told you all to drink poison koolaid you'd do it without question. Obey the Pope, defend the Pope, issue damage control, refer to Church 'tradition' but NEVER EVER obey Scripture. Got it.
>>LOL is right! Still avoiding the question huh? I guess its just so much easier to bash somebody else.<<
Please quote where I “bashed” anyone.
I told you to get your stones ready, afterall that’s what the crowd did when Jesus Himself told us to Judge NOT.
So your own interpretation of scripture, i.e. II Timothy 4-2, must be off and I have no need to go with your interpretation.
“LOL indeed. By adopting this debate strategy you’ve already lost the debate. :)”
Your opinion is off again.
There IS no Hindu God.
Unless you think there is.
Me, I know only ONE God.
>>If the Pope told you all to drink poison koolaid you’d do it without question. Obey the Pope, defend the Pope, issue damage control, refer to Church ‘tradition’ but NEVER EVER obey Scripture. Got it.<<
Got what? Catholics know you are a Sister in Christ.
We have a bigger enemy than eachother FRiend.
I think he tinkled in some cherrios this morning.
They tend to be a bit off.
Good to see you again!
Correction....They're 'CATHOLIC' Canadians having a Hindu Mass in their church. Amazing the lengths catholics go to excuse the obvious within their churches...stunning!
No actually my interpretation is spot on. It comes directly from the Greek. My focus in getting you to answer II Timothy 4:2 (which you have still REFUSED to do) is to get you to focus on where your interpretation is wrong. There are times when we are to make judgements. Never with the desire to condemn, but with the goal of discerning truth and error. We have to in order to be able to reprove or rebuke don't we? IF we are never ever to judge based on your view then we can't possibly ever reprove anyone. Get it? Which is why you won't answer the question, you can't.
When Jesus commanded us to 'KNOW them by their fruit' He is telling us to be discerning. Watch the actions of your leaders. You will KNOW whether you are leading you rightly or wrongly by WHAT THEY DO. You ignore this at your own peril.
Your 4th time now refusal to answer the question tells me all I need to know about you and about Catholicism.
On that we can agree.
Unfortunately Hindus believe there IS.
So, why doesn't the Pope tell them there ISN'T, then show them the way to Christ???? Its what the Apostles would have done.
Instead what is the catholic hierarchy doing? Preaching a non-biblical 'all paths lead to God' blasphemy. That's what he's doing. With the Hindus and with Islam (Catechism #841). Tells me all I need to know.
Read what I posted again, in context, without an agenda to catch either me or the Pope in some kind of gotcha. Because that must be what you are doing, since I clearly stated, "The point is though, for that kind of service, on Good Friday, its perfectly acceptable to pray, lead us from darkness to light because thats exactly what Christ did when He died on Good Friday. He descended into the grave, surely a dark place, and then proceeded to destroy our slavery to the grave, thus leading us to light."
Put another way, I don care what some New Age freak does with his own mouth, in his own language, at whatever service they have. It doesn't matter. It can't matter that the same phrase used in a Christian service could also be used in some pagan service. Otherwise, I'm sure I could find some word or phrase from the Lord's Prayer that's just the same as some Satanic ritual or whatever, but does that mean the Lord's Prayer is pagan?
Of course not. The point is that if words or a phrase is co-opted by Christianity, it becomes Christian in context! Or else, we might as well concede the point that Christmas is a "pagan holiday", since it was, in fact, a pagan celebration before the Church came along.
Heck, maybe you are such a person. If so this point is already lost on you. Either way, this is a waste of time. It's pointless to argue this. It's ridiculous to suggest merely because a prayer was pagan at one point, that exact phrase somehow can't be used by Christianity. It's ridiculous to suggest that, when the prayer itself isn't directed to a pagan god but to Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.