Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

TEN REASONS WHY ISAIAH 53 CANNOT REFER TO ISRAEL
HopeInMessiah.org ^ | Compiled by Jonathan Sacks

Posted on 02/09/2011 9:48:44 AM PST by hope_dies_last

TEN REASONS WHY ISAIAH 53 CANNOT REFER TO ISRAEL

Compiled by Jonathan Sacks

The passage known as “Isaiah 53” actually begins at Isaiah 52:13 and includes the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. This passage speaks in detail of the life, suffering, and death of Messiah. (This passage is quoted below.) The overwhelmingly dominant Jewish view throughout history has been that this extended passage speaks of Messiah. (See “What Rabbis Have Said about Isaiah 53.”) Therefore, the Jewish view of the Messiah traditionally has included the understanding that the Messiah would suffer and die as the ultimate kaparrah (atonement) for the sins of Israel and of the world.

For over a thousand years after the death of Yeshua, this remained essentially the only Jewish view concerning Isaiah 53. In the late 11th century a new view, that the passage spoke of Israel, was introduced, but was vehemently rejected by the vast majority of rabbis for the next 700 years. Following are ten reasons why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to Israel. These include some of the reasons the rabbis overwhelmingly rejected this novel view.

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 52:13 Behold My servant shall prosper, He shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.

52:14 According as many were appalled at thee—so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike the sons of men—

52:15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.

53:1 Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

53:2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.

53:3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised and we esteemed him not.

53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed.

53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.

53:7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.

53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.

53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:

53:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.

53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The Ten Reasons

1. The consistent use of pronouns in the passage makes it clear that the suffering servant is an individual who is distinct from the Jewish people to whom Isaiah was speaking. Throughout the passage, the suffering servant is always referred to in the singular (he, him, himself, and his), while the people of Israel are referred to in the plural (we, us, and our) or simply as “my people.” Thus, the suffering servant cannot be Israel. For example, Isaiah 53:3-8 states:

He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely our disease he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way;

And the Lord hath made to light upon him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, though he humbled himself, and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that is before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.[1]

In addition, when “Israel” is inserted for the pronouns, the passage makes no sense. For example, the servant is righteous yet is dying for Israel’s transgressions. (See, for example, verses 8 and 11.) Either Israel is righteous or she isn’t, not both. In addition, Israel cannot die vicariously for her own sins.

2. Israel is distinct from the suffering servant for three additional reasons:

a. In this passage, Israel observed the suffering of the righteous servant. (See, for example, verses 3-6.)

b. The suffering servant died for the transgressions, or sins, of the Jewish people. This is seen in the closing sentence of Isaiah 53:8, which says:

For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.

Clearly, “my people” is Isaiah’s people, the people of Israel. The passage would make no sense if the suffering servant were Israel. In that case, Israel would die for Israel’s sins. In other words, Israel would have gotten what she deserved, which makes no sense. The entire passage speaks of the suffering servant suffering and dying for, on behalf of, or in place of Israel.

c. In verse 10, the suffering servant is offered as an “asham,” or guilt offering. Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, or Jewish Bible, the guilt offering was never Israel, nor could it ever have been Israel. The guilt offering, or "asham," was always offered on behalf of or in place of the one who had committed the trespass or sin.[2] It was never offered for or on behalf of the asham itself. (No one could ever be an “asham” for his or her own sins.) An asham offering was always offered by an individual and never by the nation of Israel. (See Art Scroll commentary on Leviticus, volume 1.) In addition, the offering had to be without blemish, or sinless. Because the offering was without blemish, it was always offered for the sins of someone other than the asham itself. For all of these reasons, Israel cannot be the suffering servant who offers himself as an asham offering.

3. The “asham” always had to die. Likewise, the suffering servant clearly died. See Isaiah 53:8, 9, 10, and 12. He was “cut off out of the land of the living,” he had a grave; he was with the rich “in his death;” and he “poured out his soul unto death.” However, Israel never died. In fact, it is impossible for Israel to ever die, because G-d promised Israel that she would live forever. (See, for example Jeremiah 31:35-37.)

4. The suffering servant suffered a vicarious and substitutionary death (Isaiah 53:4-6, 8, 10, 12). He suffers for the sins of others, so they need not suffer for their own sins. Nowhere in the Jewish Bible nor in Jewish history do we ever see Israel suffering for, on behalf of, or in place of the Gentiles, so that the Gentiles do not have to suffer. Israel often suffered at the hand of Gentiles or because of Gentiles, but never for, on behalf of, or in place of the Gentiles. Israel suffers, but she always suffers for her own sins.

5. The suffering servant “sprinkles” many nations (or Gentiles) in Isaiah 52:15. The Hebrew word for sprinkle is repeatedly used for the sprinkling of the blood of the sacrifice, which was always offered for, on behalf of, or in place of Israel.[3] Israel’s blood was never “sprinkled”, as Israel could never be a sacrifice for herself.

6. The suffering servant has qualities that were never true of Israel:

a. The suffering servant is depicted as being innocent. He did no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth (Isaiah 53:4-6, 8b, 9b). Israel is never told she would suffer for being innocent. (See, for example, Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28.) In addition, Israel is never depicted as being innocent. A cursory reading through Judges, I and II Samuel, I and II Kings, I and II Chronicles, and all the prophets make this abundantly clear. (See, for example, Isaiah 59:1-15, esp. verses 4-7 and Psalm 14:3. These are just two of hundreds of examples that could be cited.) That was why so many sacrifices were needed. Israel was never righteous, or even close to being righteous. Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel is pictured as continually rejecting God and being repeatedly judged for her sins. This is in sharp contrast to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, who is portrayed as an innocent sufferer.

b. The suffering servant is the most righteous person described in Scripture. In Isaiah 53:11, he is called “Tsadeek ahvdee”, or “My righteous servant.” This is the only place in the entire Hebrew Bible where this phrase is used. It certainly is never used of Israel. In addition, neither Abraham, Moses, David, nor any other prophet or ruler was ever called “Tsadeek ahvdee”, or “My righteous servant” in the Hebrew Bible—except for the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. Only one righteous or without any blemish could die as a sacrifice for sin. However, no normal human was ever considered righteous on his or her own. (See, for example, Psalm 14:2-3 and Psalm 53:2-3.) This suffering servant must, therefore, be someone greater than Abraham, Moses, or David. It is no wonder that the great majority of rabbis throughout the ages concluded that this righteous servant was none other than the Messiah of Israel.

c. The suffering servant is depicted as being a silent sufferer, in that, like a lamb, he did not protest his execution nor did he defend himself (verse 7). He, instead, suffered willingly and voluntarily. While Israel has suffered immeasurable persecution, she has never done so willingly or voluntarily. Israel has always cried out against the inhumanity of people against her.

7. In this passage, the suffering servant is depicted as suffering for, on behalf of, or in place of others. This was never true of Israel. In the Jewish Bible, every time Israel suffers, including the Babylonian captivity and the present day Dispersion or Diaspora, Israel suffered for her own disobedience—not for the sins of others.

8. The Jewish people (Israel) were promised that if they obeyed G-d, they would be greatly blessed. Only if they were disobedient would they be cursed. (See, for example, Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28.) If Israel were the righteous servant of Isaiah 53, it would have been impossible for her to have suffered and died under the conditions and in the manner described in this passage.

9. In this passage, the suffering servant bore the sins of the people, so they would not have to bear their own sins or be judged for them (Isaiah 53:4-6, 8, 10, 12). If the servant is Israel and the people are the Gentiles, then the Gentiles would not need to be punished for their sins, as they would have been vicariously borne by Israel. This has never been the case. The Gentiles were never deemed innocent after Jews suffered at their hands. Instead, they were judged for mistreating Jewish people. (See, for example, Genesis 12:3, Numbers 24:9, and Jeremiah 46:28.)

10. Isaiah 53:1 refers to the suffering servant as “the Arm of the Lord.” There are 37 references to the Arm of the Lord in the Tanakh. Never does that phrase refer to Israel. The Arm of the Lord acts on behalf of Israel, but is never Israel. Among other things, the Arm of the Lord redeems and delivers Israel when Israel is not able to deliver herself. (See, for example, Exodus 6:6, Exodus 15:16, Deuteronomy 4:34, 5:15, 9:29, 26:8, II Kings 17:36, Psalm 44:3, and Ezekiel 20:33-34.) Clearly the suffering servant, the Arm of the Lord, cannot be Israel.

Conclusion

For these ten reasons, the passage cannot refer to Israel. Therefore, as leading rabbis have held throughout the centuries, the passage must refer to a special individual—the Messiah—who would suffer and die as the ultimate sacrifice or atonement.

Additional thoughts to ponder...

As Christians, let not forget that Israel is the true vine, and we are grafted into the House of Israel, G-d said the heaven and earth would pass before Israel would cease to be the true "nation under G-d" and G-d's chosen people... we are blessed to be called to be part of this Holy Nation and to be adopted into G-d's family and priestlyhood through Yeshua haMashiach


TOPICS: Apologetics; Judaism; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: judaism; mashiach; messiah; messianic; replacementtheology; revisionism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-53 next last
With the utmost respect for the beliefs held by one of the third largest religions in the world, that is Judaism, I am convinced that G-d is larger that the great religious divide, and trust the manifold wisdom of G-d in calling His sheep into one fold, that is the House of Israel and under the Lordship of Yeshua, in the lineage and Kingship of the House of David and according to the Priestlyhood in the Order of Melchizedic, Shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua haMashiach.
1 posted on 02/09/2011 9:48:50 AM PST by hope_dies_last
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last

I bet it was really talking about Lichtenstein!


2 posted on 02/09/2011 9:52:42 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last

Uh,what? Where are you getting this info?


3 posted on 02/09/2011 10:00:34 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last

Well, I am not clear on what the point is of his comments, because Christians say that Isaiah 53 is NOT about Israel, per se, but about Jesus Christ and the coming Messiah, and that these verses describe the Messiah and His suffering and death on the cross.

It also speaks volumes of how wrong so many paintings of “Jesus” are, most show him fairly handsome, while verse

Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.

Speaks how he has no form or comliness, I.E., attractiveness, that he would be desireable

In other words, jesus was most likely rather plain looking, maybe even homely, to prove a point how we humans tend to promote or appoint as leaders those whoo look more handsome or muscular or fit


4 posted on 02/09/2011 10:01:01 AM PST by RaceBannon (RON PAUL: THE PARTY OF TRUTHERS, TRAITORS AND UFO CHASERS!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blasater1960

Of interest, perhaps?


5 posted on 02/09/2011 10:01:48 AM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RaceBannon
In other words, jesus was most likely rather plain looking, maybe even homely, to prove a point how we humans tend to promote or appoint as leaders those whoo look more handsome or muscular or fit

Jesus would have to be physically very strong. He was a carpenter by trade, and with no power tools, He would need to have been able to do all of the things we associate with carpentry by hand.

Also, when Jesus cleansed the Temple, He would have had to have been strong, and quite possibly intimidating-looking, to successfully get away with flipping over tables and whipping the merchants and money changers therein.

6 posted on 02/09/2011 10:14:16 AM PST by pnh102 (Regarding liberalism, always attribute to malice what you think can be explained by stupidity. - Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last

I’ve never heard anyone say that Isaiah 53 referred to Israel. Hmmm.


7 posted on 02/09/2011 10:14:16 AM PST by CynicalBear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last
With the utmost respect for the beliefs held by one of the third largest religions in the world, that is Judaism

3rd largest ... except for that dozen or so other religions that outnumber it....

8 posted on 02/09/2011 10:20:15 AM PST by r9etb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CynicalBear
I’ve never heard anyone say that Isaiah 53 referred to Israel. Hmmm.

Judaism teaches this passage refers to the Jews or the Nation of Israel, while Christianity teaches this passage refers to Christ.


9 posted on 02/09/2011 10:21:39 AM PST by hope_dies_last
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
Uh,what? Where are you getting this info?

Same answer I gave to cynicalbear...

Judaism teaches this passage refers to the Jews or the Nation of Israel, while Christianity teaches this passage refers to Christ.
10 posted on 02/09/2011 10:24:03 AM PST by hope_dies_last
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last

bookmarked.


11 posted on 02/09/2011 10:26:32 AM PST by I still care (I miss my friends, bagels, and the NYC skyline - but not the taxes. I love the South.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RaceBannon
Hamlet 2 plays a musical number called “Rock me Rock me Rock me Sexy Jesus” that is a hilarious spoof on the “Chris Christopherson” image of our Savior as one fine dude!
12 posted on 02/09/2011 10:27:44 AM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last; CynicalBear
I’ve never heard anyone say that Isaiah 53 referred to Israel.

Jews say it all the time.

These are excellent rebuttals. Thanks, hope.

13 posted on 02/09/2011 10:37:37 AM PST by Siena Dreaming
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last

I didn’t realize that. Thanks.


14 posted on 02/09/2011 10:38:17 AM PST by CynicalBear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

>>Uh,what? Where are you getting this info?<<

I’m thinking the bible.

The rest is analysis of what the bible says.

However, I did not know of the timing of the “crazy talk” teaching that it was speaking of Israel.


15 posted on 02/09/2011 10:50:39 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: James C. Bennett

Very much so!, thanks for the ping.


16 posted on 02/09/2011 11:20:11 AM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: r9etb

Yes, so much for any claim to rigorous scholarship with THAT enormity!

Judaism isn’t even in the top 10!


17 posted on 02/09/2011 11:23:17 AM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last
Amen ! Brother.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

18 posted on 02/09/2011 11:41:32 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pnh102

With the Holy Spirit behind you, how do you know the Money Changers didn’t just see a righteous angry man with a whip??


19 posted on 02/09/2011 4:06:51 PM PST by RaceBannon (RON PAUL: THE PARTY OF TRUTHERS, TRAITORS AND UFO CHASERS!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last

These passages DO NOT refer to Jesus.The Christian Bible is a gross twisting around of the Torah!


20 posted on 02/10/2011 10:16:35 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming

The reason we Jews say it all the time is because it refers to Israel.Christianity needs to stop taking our sacred scriptures and twisting them around!!


21 posted on 02/10/2011 10:19:19 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last

The messiah CANNOT DIE!


22 posted on 02/10/2011 10:20:34 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RobRoy

Well,it’s wrong.


23 posted on 02/10/2011 10:21:43 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

It can’t be Israel because Israel was commanded to offer guilt offerings to God...but the suffering one in Is 53 was the guilt offering Himself (v. 10).


24 posted on 02/10/2011 10:56:02 AM PST by Siena Dreaming
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
The messiah CANNOT DIE!

The Messiah is King forever; He is not just a temporal, worldly King.

However, He doesn't want to reign in eternity by Himself. He wants His followers with him.

How can His worldly followers follow Him forever if they are mortal? Their living in a sinful world consigns them to death.

The Messiah has provided the answer. He has taken their sin forever by suffering death for them. His suffering is the only one that will work because He is perfect.

He died only for us; He deserved none of it. His death was solely to allow our sins to be removed so we could dwell in his perfect presence for eternity.

The message was given to Israel in many, many ways but so many of them were too fixated on this world to see it. However, this message is for all peoples everywhere...Jew and Gentile...for those who will believe it.

That is what this scripture is talking about...1 Corinthians 1:18. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

25 posted on 02/10/2011 11:06:53 AM PST by Siena Dreaming
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN; hope_dies_last
These passages DO NOT refer to Jesus.The Christian Bible is a gross twisting around of the Torah!

Mazol Tov.

But they line up with the Isaiah Scroll
from the Qumran (~100 BCE)

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
26 posted on 02/10/2011 11:09:22 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming

I suggest you do some research on Isaiah 53.Jesus has nothing to do with it.NOTHING.Christianity needs to stop taking our sacred scriptures and twisting them around!!


27 posted on 02/10/2011 11:45:52 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: UriÂ’el-2012

I will say it again,and I hope my fellow Jews will throw me a bone.The Christian Bible is a gross twisting around of the Torah!


28 posted on 02/10/2011 11:49:05 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming

Read the Hebrew Scriptures(not the ones in the King James Bible;those are a total mistranslation of our Torah).The messiah will be human, he will rule at a time of peace(do you see peace on earth? I sure don’t), he will rebuild the Temple,and the Jews will come to complete Torah observance.There are other things as well,and there is no mention of a “second coming”.The idea that a mangod was born to a virgin is pagan in origin.The idea that G-d can be 3 in 1 is pagan in origin.This is one reason I left Christianity.I cannot believe that G-d came to earth in human form,only to die on a cross.How can He die?It makes no sense!


29 posted on 02/10/2011 11:57:34 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: RobRoy

“Crazy talk”? That is ignorant,and I will bite my tongue lest I get booted.


30 posted on 02/10/2011 12:00:20 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN; hope_dies_last; Jack Hydrazine; RaceBannon; James C. Bennett; CynicalBear; ...
Here is the reason why Jews reject the interpretation of Isaiah 53 being that of the man from Nazareth.

The passage known as “Isaiah 53” actually begins at Isaiah 52:13 and includes the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. This passage speaks in detail of the life, suffering, and death of Messiah. (This passage is quoted below.)

The overwhelmingly dominant Jewish view throughout history has been that this extended passage speaks of Messiah. (See “What Rabbis Have Said about Isaiah 53.”) Therefore, the Jewish view of the Messiah traditionally has included the understanding that the Messiah would suffer and die as the ultimate kaparrah (atonement) for the sins of Israel and of the world.

Okay, lets look at all these points. First off, the notion that "overwhelmingly dominant Jewish view" was that of a singular messiah is just wrong. The word “Messiah” never even appears in the text. If this passage were about a suffering messiah, G-d would have put the word messiah, mashiach or anointed one, in the text. From the time of Zohar, 2nd century on up (earliest known post canon thinking) there are documented cases of a belief in the corporate Israel view. Some Rabbis held to a singular person view, some held to the corporate Israel view. By the middle ages from Rashi on, it has been universally held by Rabbi’s that Isaiah 53 is about Israel, the Jewish people. None of these Rabbis ever believed the servant was G-d or divine in anyway. Some believed it referred to Hezekiah, some Jeremiah, none of them thought it was Jesus. What changed over time to shift the view to a universally held view of Israel as the servant? The Crusades, Inquisition and Pogroms, where the Jewish people were slaughtered and expelled by the tens of thousands, without cause, made it abundantly clear. And what capped it off forever was the Holocaust. If there was any doubt prior, those doubts evaporated in the gas chambers and ovens of the Nazi’s.

Next, let’s look at context. Isaiah starts with strong condemnation and rebuke of Israel and then a comforting reassurance of G-d’s commitment to Israel, Israel’s redemption and the Judgment of the nations who harmed her. Isaiah 53 passage occurs as the fourth servant “song”. In the previous sections of Isaiah, Israel is described as G-ds servant, not once but many times.

Isaiah 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend, 9 I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

Isaiah 43:1 But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. 4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give people in exchange for you, nations in exchange for your life. 5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. 10 “You are my witnesses,”(Notice the plural, not singular witness) declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah44 1 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 This is what the LORD says— he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun(Israel),[a] whom I have chosen.

21 Isaiah44:21 Remember these things, Jacob, for you, Israel, are my servant. I have made you, you are my servant; Israel, I will not forget you. 22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you.”

Isaiah 45:4 4 For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen,

Isaiah 48…say, “The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob.” 21 They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock;

Isaiah 49:3 3 He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”

So, there we have a clear indication of who the servant of the LORD is, Israel, Jacob (Israel). So in context the servant, in Isaiah 41 through 49, is identified as Israel, my servant. But then we have a slight change in discussion and hence the name of the subject changes as well. Israel feels forsaken of G-d.

Isaiah 49:14 But Zion said, “The LORD has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me.”

Israel is now called Zion. And look at the amazing comfort that G-d gives His servant Israel, now called Zion.

15 “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! 16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.

Wow. What a promise! Continuing:

Isaiah 51: 3 The LORD will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of the LORD.

I who set the heavens in place, who laid the foundations of the earth, and who say to Zion, ‘You are my people.’”

But G-d will end his affliction of Zion, Israel

21 Therefore hear this, you afflicted one(appears again in Is 53), made drunk, but not with wine. 22 This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again.

Now onto Isaiah 52!

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake, Zion, clothe yourself with strength! Put on your garments of splendor, Jerusalem, the holy city.

Isaiah 52:4-6 makes it clear that the servant is again Israel: "For thus says the L-RD G-d, My people went down the first time to Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what have I here, says the L-RD, that My people are taken away for nothing? Those who rule over them howl, says the L-RD; and My Name continually every day is blasphemed. Therefore My people shall know My Name; therefore they shall know in that day that I am He who speaks; behold, here I am." Notice that a group of people is being spoken about (people is a collective singular here), one that was in Egypt and Assyria. Those people are Israel.

7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!”

Here again, Zion is not an individual but the nation of Israel. And now we go into the mystery of Is 52-53 dealing with the suffering servant. So to review, Isaiah 41-49 My servant is Israel. 49-52 the servant transitions to Zion, my people. The next aspect to consider is who is talking in the text in the various sections of the suffering servant song.

• … Now, let's look at the context of Isaiah 52-53 to see if the servant is also Israel there. The two chapters are connected, and form a continuous message.

Isaiah• 52:13-14 "Indeed, My servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights. Just as the many were appalled at him--so marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, his form, beyond human semblance--just so he shall startle many nations."

In verse 13, that same people is spoken of as "My servant". G-d is telling us here that, in the end, Israel will prosper and take its rightful place in G-d's plan. But before that happens, Israel (i.e. the Jewish people) will be perceived as marred and unlike other men in appearance. We have been seen by others as demons, devils, rats, sub-human, virues. Our life to them has been cheap. The Jewish people have certainly been perceived as demonic by many, having horns and a tail. We have also be painted with enormous hooked noses and stooped backs, and perceived as having a odd, Jewish aroma. We have been painted as sacrificing Christian children to the "Devil" that controls us, and using the blood in our matzos. We have been accused of poisoning wells and desecrating hosts. Our skin has been used to make lamps, our hair to make cloth. To those who hate us, we are beyond human semblance. Many have been startled to find out we are not demons and have no horns. Finally, the only way to stuff 1.5 million children and 4.5 million adults into gas chambers and ovens is to first marred their visage beyond that of a man…into a visage that is not human.

Jesus, on the other hand, looked exactly like a man. There are no stories in the New Testament of Jesus astonishing people with his looks, with Jesus having horns, tails, and the like. This is not about Jesus, it is about Israel. Even after Jesus was scourged and hanging on the cross, all who saw him recognized him as himself. So he was not marred beyond that of a man.

• Isaiah 52:15 "Just so he shall startled many nations. Kings shall be silenced because of him, For they shall see what has not been told them, Shall behold what they never have heard."

This is now the Kings and leaders of the world speaking. We startled many nations by our very survival when they thought we should disappear, but we did not. We have startled many nations by our importance, and by our major contributions to the world in many fields, beyond our small numbers. Such a reviled people, such a small people who, in their view to this very day, should not exist anymore, will come as a big surprise to many nations, many peoples. In the future, they will be surprised when they realize their mistake, that what they have been told is wrong--we are not demons, servants of the "Devil", a fossil who should disappear, rats or evil. They will be startled when they find out we are and have indeed been G-d's servant. When they see the truth, they will indeed be speechless, silent in the face of what they have believed, what they have done.

• Isaiah 53:1 "Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the L-RD revealed?"

The arm of the L-RD is a metaphor used though out the Tanach to indicate G-d is taking direct action and for vindication. This same metaphor is used in Deuteronomy 5:15, "And remember that you were slaves in the land of Egypt, and that the L-RD your G-d brought you out from there with a mighty hand and with a stretched out arm;...". They will find the truth even if spoken by non-Jews hard to believe, hard to accept, but HaShem will vindicate us, the Jewish people.

• Isaiah 52:2 "For he grew up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness that we should look at him, there was no countenance that we should desire him."

They did not think us pleasing to look upon, but HaShem will favor us, our suffering will not endure forever. Indeed, Israel is like a trunk in arid ground, growing with the favor of HaShem. Isaiah uses the trunk metaphor (see Isaiah 6:12) to refer to the surviving remnant of Jews that will come out of Babylon purified, free from the dross of idolaters. Again, no one desired to look at us, seeing us as less than human, as ugly. Yet, before G-d, we are as a tender plant coming out of the dry bitter ground of the world. We are a light in the darkness. Corporate Israel, a singular entity, is the shoot and no one else. Jesus, for example, was not seen as ugly to look upon and gathered large crowds.

• Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised, shunned by men, a man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, he was despised, we held him of no account."

According to the NT, Jesus had large crowds of follower and was not shunned. Israel, on the other hand, certainly has been shunned. We have been kicked out of many countries, some more than once. The Romans kicked us out of our own land, renaming it, trying to make us disappear. Spain, England, Germany, France, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc. have all kicked us out. We have been shunned by men. We have been despised for many thing we have not done, and just because we are G-d's servant. The Syrian-Greeks despised us, and tried to destroy our religion, to make us worship their "gods". We have known much suffering: the rule of the Syrian-Greeks; the Roman with their forced labor, crucifixions of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and law forbidding us to learn or teach Torah; the Crusades; Inquisition; HaShoah (Holocaust); Dhimi status in Muslim countries; ghettos; expulsions; pogroms; job restrictions; slavery; etc... The ghettos were so packed that disease was a problem. In the concentration camps disease was rampant. Jesus was never shown as diseased. We have been held to be worthless, of no account by the non-Jewish world, we still are viewed in this way by many peoples and individuals. They cannot, did not, see our true face through their hate. This applies so much more to the suffering on the Jewish people at the hands of intolerant, ignorant, and bigoted people, than it ever could to Jesus.

• Isaiah 53:4 "Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, Our suffering that he endured. We accounted him plagued, smitten and afflicted by God;"

The gentile nations are speaking in the verse. The sickness was in them, not us. We have bore the result of their sickness; we have suffered and continue to suffer because of them. They believed us cursed by G-d, their own books said so as did their leaders. They took it upon themselves to make sure that we suffered the curse they thought us to be under. It was they themselves who made us suffer, through their own free will. Many Jews continue to suffer at the hands of those who view us as cursed by G-d. And notice the language of the afflicted is just like Isaiah 51:21, who was the afflicted? Zion, my people! And the cup of G-ds wrath will end, 51:22. Similar language is found in Nahum 1:1212 This is what the LORD says: “Although they have allies and are numerous, they will be destroyed and pass away. Although I have afflicted you, Judah, I will afflict you no more. G-ds afflicted is Israel.

• Isaiah 53:5-6 says "But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed. We went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the L-RD visited upon him the guilt of all of us."

The gentile nations are still speaking. Because of the sins of the non-Jews who persecuted us, we were crushed. We bore the chastisement that made many anti-Semites feel whole. The non-Jew did not treat others as they should have, straying from the Noachide law against murder. It appeared to many who arrayed themselves against the Jewish people that G-d was punishing the Jews, but it was really their own guilty actions that caused the suffering of G-d's servant Israel. Throughout the centuries when the Jews were being murdered for nothing, who was sinning? G-d NEVER gave permission to the nations to murder the Jews. The nations were sinning by their murderous hatred of the Jews. So, the Jews bore that sin of the mass murder by the nations. It is interesting to note that the word Holocaust means, “whole burnt” and was used for centuries as the term for a burnt offering.

• Isaiah 53:7 "He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, he did not open his mouth; like sheep being led to slaughter, like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her, he did not open his mouth."

Jesus cried out on the cross and held conversations with others; he opened his mouth during his trial. We were maltreated, but following the principle that if we were submissive it would all blow over and we would survive, the people would survive, we remained submissive throughout the millennia. In Nazi controlled Europe, to give a modern example, we again remained submissive, not knowing that relocation, another exile from another country like so many others before, was not all Germany had in mind. We were transported in cattle cars, like sheep to the slaughter. Like ewes who do not know they are going to be sheared, we did not know the fate that awaited us in the "relocation trains". We did not open our mouths.

• Isaiah 53:8 "By oppressive judgment he was taken away, who could describe his abode? For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my [i.e. the non Jewish speakers] people, who deserved punishment."

They oppressed us, judged us guilty, and took us away. We, the Jewish people (Israel) were taken away by oppressive judgment (blood libel trials, pogroms, crusades, inquisition, anti-Jewish laws, the Shoah). We were murdered, cut off from the land of the living, because of their sins (ie the sin of murder, etc.) by non-Jews. It is they who murder who deserved the punishment they gave us unjustly. It was those who sinned and continue to sin against us, not us, the servant of G-d, who deserves to be punished. And if Jesus was cut-off, that is NEVER a good thing, being cut-off ALWAYS refers to unrighteous people. Yes, even Daniel 9. One of the anointed is righteous, one is not. Those are two separate anointed ones.

• Isaiah 53:9 "And his grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death -- though he has done no injustice and spoken no falsehood."

The rich are often portrayed as wicked, so we are saying the same thing twice for emphasis. Israel (the Jewish people) have done nothing to merit the ill treatment we have received by the rest of the world, nonetheless, Jews were still buried in pits and mass graves. Holocaust Jews were slaughtered with Gypsies and homosexuals and shoved into pits with them. Jews were given the disrespectful burial of a wicked man. Our grave stones still removed to pave streets and latrines, still desecrated even here in America. From what I read in the NT, Jesus was given a decent burial in a nice tomb ALONE, by himself, not the disrespectful mass burial of wicked persons.

• Isaiah 53:10-12 says "But the L-RD chose to crush him by disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, and that through him the L-RD's purpose might prosper. Out of anguish he shall see it; he shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. [G-d says:] 'My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears; assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, he shall receive the multitude as his spoil. For he exposed himself to death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of many and made intercession for sinners.'"

First of all, note that the servant (Israel) will have offspring and long life. Israel as a group has had many children and a long life. Jesus had no children and was put to death by the Romans when he was fairly young. This passage cannot be referring to Jesus. Christians will say this is “spiritual” children but the word for children here in Hebrew is Zerah and it NEVER means spiritual children, only physical children. Also, if this is Jesus, G-d crushes G-d? G-d gives Himself disease? If G-d makes Himself a guilt offering He will have long life? Jesus had a short life, so must NOT have made Himself an offering for guilt. Asham or guilt offerings are for SPECIFIC sins only. That means Jesus offering would be limited to those under the category of “guilt offering”. Leviticus 5 and notice this! Lev 5:11, NO BLOOD IS REQUIRED! A flour offering atones for sin.

The nations believe that G-d was punishing us, that the L-RD "chose to crush" us "by disease". It is true that the concentration camps lead to massive disease. And Jesus was never diseased. But it was their sins that made us suffer. We are G-d's servants, a light unto the nations, our role to bring the universal laws, morality to the world. Hitler's Germany rejected G-d's seven laws for all men (genesis 9), murdering the messenger, thinking that the message made Germany weak. For their guilt we suffered. The Jewish people has offered little resistance to the actions of our persecutors. We have born the brunt of their guilty actions. Yet, we are still devoted to HaShem and are fulfilling our role to be a light unto the nations, so that the nations may one day follow the Noachide laws ordained by G-d. Through our example, we are to make many people righteous, but we bear the punishment of the guilty in the meantime. We have been killed by many, dying with the Shema on our lips. We have been buried in pits as sinners, whereas the killers were the real sinners.

G-d will one day reward us, the nations will one day recognize our role. The nations have numbered us as sinner and murdered us because of their misguided beliefs. It is they that were guilty. We have ever prayed for the world, for the people of the nations in which we dwelt. In the end, all will stream to Mount Zion to worship, all will follow the seven laws of Noah, and "... In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold--they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.'" (Zech. 8:23) And 19O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. …. 21Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD. (Jer 16:19,21)

The suffering servant is Israel. But she will be redeemed by G-d. Notice what occurs directly after Isaiah 53 in the verses in 54.

Israel is compared to a woman without child: 1Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child:…. 6For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Does this in anyway apply to Jesus? No! But the nation of Israel? Yes!

Isaiah 54:10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. 11O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

There is that wording again! Afflicted! Like Zion, my people in Isaiah 51:21 and Isaiah 53:4, Israel is once again refered to as G-ds afflicted. Before Isaiah 53 and after.

Isaiah 54: 17No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

And look how 54 ends. Once again Israel is called servant but this time plural. So, to summarize, Isaiah 41-49 Israel My servant, Isaiah 49-52 Israel is Zion, Isaiah 53 back to My servant, Isaiah 54 Israel the barren woman, comforted by G-d, Israel, servants of the LORD.

Taken in the context of a sizeable section of Isaiah, Israel is G-ds suffering servant, redeemed by G-d.

31 posted on 02/10/2011 12:04:28 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
I suggest you do some research on Isaiah 53.Jesus has nothing to do with it.

You didn't explain how Israel can be its own guilt offering.

There is only one perfect, blameless sacrifice. Sinful men cannot offer it.

32 posted on 02/10/2011 12:37:26 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming

Read what blasater1960 wrote.Maybe you’ll get it.


33 posted on 02/10/2011 12:50:51 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
How can He die?

I told you how. The issue is sin. We cannot co-habitate with a totally Holy God; it is impossible.

The only way is to have sin removed...washed clean...not just once but forever.

The only one who can provide a sacrifice is God...he is the only one who can bear the PUNISHMENT for the depth of our sin.

The messiah will be human,

Yes, He was human which is why He had to be born of a woman...there's no other way. But it was an immaculate conception since He is also God.

he will rule at a time of peace

This is impossible because men are sinful. There will never be a time of peace on this sin-riddled Earth. Only in Heaven will there be peace for eternity. Join the way of truth and eternal true LIFE.

34 posted on 02/10/2011 12:52:09 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: blasater1960
I thank you immensely.Maybe it will be an eye-opener.
35 posted on 02/10/2011 12:53:05 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming

I already know the truth,and it is Torah.


36 posted on 02/10/2011 12:54:38 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Fear can hold you prisoner.Hope can set you free.(Shawshank Redemption))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
Read what blasater1960 wrote.

No, I don't read long and convoluted posts which I often find on FR. If he wants to address my points clearly he can.

37 posted on 02/10/2011 12:58:21 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming; POWERSBOOTHEFAN
How can He die? I told you how. The issue is sin. We cannot co-habitate with a totally Holy God; it is impossible.

You are making the assumption that G-d has given us a flawed system that somehow needs to be fixed by Jesus. This is gravely in error. No where in the Tanakh(OT) does G-d EVER say that the Law is flawed and needs replacing. The Law is forever Psalm 111 Deut 4:40. A new covenant does NOT mean new Law or gospel. G-d has given us means of atonement with and without a temple. G-d has given gentiles access to Him since the covenant of Noah in Genesis 9. You can look up the seven laws of Noah on the web.

The messiah will be human, Yes, He was human which is why He had to be born of a woman...there's no other way. But it was an immaculate conception since He is also God.

Human yes, divine no. And since he is according to Christians 100%man and 100%god, he is unsuitable for a sacrifice since human sacrifice is forbidden by G-d.

Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]

Dont serve G-d like the pagans do. G-d HATES what they do. What do they do? Human sacrifice. So we are to believe the G-d acts like a pagan? And kills his only human son? After telling us not to kill our sons because he hates it?

We are each responsible for our own sin. Ezek 18. No one can vicariously take our sins for us. (G-d is a conservative, who demands personal responsibility!)

Deut 24:The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

There was no immaculate conception. Isaiah 7:14 is talking about a young woman, not a virgin. And 7:14 is a prophecy of what was to occur in THAT TIME. The prophecy was not about the birth of the child but the AGE of the child. When the child became of age, the two kings would be destroyed. It has nothing to do with Jesus who wouldnt be born for 700 more years!

he will rule at a time of peace This is impossible because men are sinful. There will never be a time of peace on this sin-riddled Earth. Only in Heaven will there be peace for eternity.

Even Christians believe the Messiah ben David will bring peace on earth. It is one of the messianic prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill. And No one can be considered The Messiah until AFTER he has fulfilled ALL of them. No down payment, no second coming. It isnt scriptural.

And you should read the Isaiah 53 post. It isnt that long and it is not convoluted. Are you an honest truth seeker? or not.

38 posted on 02/10/2011 1:50:18 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

should be...hope so!


39 posted on 02/10/2011 1:51:26 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming
It can’t be Israel because Israel was commanded to offer guilt offerings to God...but the suffering one in Is 53 was the guilt offering Himself (v. 10).

Jeremiah 31:2 Thus saith YHWH: the people that were left of the sword have found grace in the wilderness, even Israel, when I go to cause him to rest.

God promises the descendants of Israel who, through captivity, exile, and intermarriage with Gentiles became assimilated and inculturated Gentiles today that they will find "grace in the wilderness".

The exile mentioned in Isaiah

From the JPS (1917) Jewish Bible Tanakh
8 In full measure, when Thou sendest her away, Thou dost contend with her; He hath removed her with His rough blast in the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore by this shall the iniquity of Jacob be expiated, and this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in pieces, so that the Asherim and the sun-images shall rise no more.

Their exile was their atonement.  

No blood was shed and their sins were taken away.

40 posted on 02/10/2011 2:09:54 PM PST by Netizen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: hope_dies_last
Messiah's arrival will be accompanied by the following:

Jesus came and afterwards....



41 posted on 02/10/2011 2:18:28 PM PST by Netizen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

Don’t count on it.


42 posted on 02/10/2011 2:24:32 PM PST by Netizen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

:)

What I meant by that was it is a huge stretch to suggest that it refers to Israel. I consider that “crazy talk”. However, I had no clue about when that teaching sprang up.


43 posted on 02/10/2011 2:26:41 PM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming
The issue is sin. We cannot co-habitate with a totally Holy God; it is impossible.

Which is why YHWH gave us the means to repent and be forgiven.

2Ch 7:14
14 if My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

The only way is to have sin removed...washed clean...not just once but forever. The only one who can provide a sacrifice is God...he is the only one who can bear the PUNISHMENT for the depth of our sin.

Micah 6
6 'Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before Him with burnt-offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?'
8 It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what YHWH doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.

Notice also the verse about how YHWH doesn't require the sacrifice of a firstborn for the transgression of sin -- atonement! SPEAKS VOLUMES.

44 posted on 02/10/2011 2:48:13 PM PST by Netizen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Siena Dreaming; blasater1960
The messiah will be human,

I think we all agree on that one point, though some think he will be a g-d.

Yes, He was human which is why He had to be born of a woman...there's no other way. But it was an immaculate conception since He is also God.

Justin Martyr admits that christianity offers nothing new, that the pagans and their pagan gods didn't already have.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth45 of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Aesculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus.

But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide

Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods. And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated.

And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius.

Justin Martyr gives a point, by point, by point, accounting of the similarities between paganism and the 'new religion'. Its the same thing under a new name.

45 posted on 02/10/2011 2:50:37 PM PST by Netizen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: RaceBannon
It also speaks volumes of how wrong so many paintings of “Jesus” are, most show him fairly handsome [...]

Yes, and with that accursed sun-god halo surrounding His head...

46 posted on 02/10/2011 3:18:24 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: roamer_1; blasater1960
Yes, and with that accursed sun-god halo surrounding His head...

Well, it could be worse.

Tomb of Pope Alexander (Chigi) VII
1671-78
Marble and gilded bronze, over life-size
Basilica di San Pietro, Vatican
The sculpture is by Gian Lorenzo Bernini

The last great masterpiece of the 80-year old Bernini who was assisted by various artists. The Pontiff, kneeling and absorbed in prayer, is not disturbed by the sudden appearance of Death, who, raising a heavy pall, brandishes an hour-glass to indicate that time has passed. The four statues represent the virtues practiced by the Pontiff: in the foreground is Charity by G. Mazzuoli, with a child in her arms, and Truth, by Morelli and Cartari, who sets a foot on a map of the world, and precisely on England where the Pope sought in vain to quell the growth of Anglicanism; on the second level is Prudence, by G. Cartari, and Justice, by L. Balestri.

It looks like "Truth" is embracing something. A child perhaps. Let's look closer at what "Truth" is embracing.

Ohhh. That's not a baby.....

47 posted on 02/10/2011 4:24:11 PM PST by Netizen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Netizen

A bouncing baby Sun! Awwe....


48 posted on 02/10/2011 5:38:31 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Netizen; blasater1960
Ohhh. That's not a baby.....

I KNOW, right?

What an offense to the Great God YHWH, that what is supposed to be representations of faith in His HOUSE are sprinkled over and again with the symbolism of Ba'al, Marduk, Tammuz, Dagon and Ashtoreth. HOW DARE THEY?

49 posted on 02/10/2011 5:44:51 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: blasater1960

Maybe Truth is going to ‘kiss the sun’. Wasn’t that prophesied somewhere?


50 posted on 02/10/2011 6:10:16 PM PST by Netizen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-53 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson