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Carefully Schooled in the First Principles and Ordinances (REAL LDS/Mormon)
LDS.org ^ | Richard E. Bennett

Posted on 02/14/2011 11:02:10 AM PST by Paragon Defender

Carefully Schooled in the First Principles and Ordinances

 

 

 

By Richard E. Bennett

Richard E. Bennett, "Carefully Schooled in the First Principles and Ordinances", Ensign, Mar. 2001, 50

 

 

Young Joseph Smith gained understanding of the first principles and ordinances by revelation from God, and sometimes by painful experience.

 

 

 

“Who among us knew the first principles of the Gospel of Christ until we heard them from the Elders of Israel? Who told us that it was right to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins? Who taught us it was right to receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands? … It was communicated to Joseph Smith by the opening of the heavens, by the ministering of Holy Angels, and by the voice of God. … Until these communications were made known [to Joseph], the inhabitants of the world were wrapped in ignorance; they knew nothing about God nor the principles of eternity, nor the way to save themselves nor anybody else.” 1

So taught President John Taylor regarding the importance of the first principles and ordinances of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and of the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith in bringing them forward. What other teachings are as important to the Church’s core teachings as these saving doctrines? They were so carefully impressed upon the Prophet’s mind in perfect, instructional sequence that by the time he wrote them as the fourth Article of Faith in the famous Wentworth letter of 1842, they were far more than words; they had become part of his being: “We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (A of F 1:4).

Early Church history shows that the Prophet Joseph Smith came to know of these saving principles in at least three ways: (1) from heavenly messengers, (2) from the consequences of some unwise decisions, (3) from his translation of ancient scripture, and (4) from frequent divine inspiration. It was a careful schooling, prepared and profound.

From Heavenly Messengers

Unschooled in the religions of man, the boy prophet Joseph lacked wisdom. After reading James 1:5, he decided to pray and ask God which of all the churches was right. Though young Joseph had been foreordained to his latter-day work, 2 faith must precede the blessing. In the divine drama of the First Vision, wherein the purposes of God, and the power of Satan and the desires of a mortal being were all manifest, the boy prophet learned much more than which church to join. While in the act of praying vocally for the first time in his life and in a secluded grove, he was suddenly “seized upon by some power which entirely overcame” him and which was intent upon his “sudden destruction” (JS—H 1:15). Thus his quiet petition was abruptly transformed into a life and death struggle. Gripped in terror and unable to cry out for help, Joseph had nowhere to turn but his greatest resource. At that moment of greatest alarm, his prayer became a desperate plea for deliverance “from the enemy that held [him] bound.” Only after he had exercised his unbounded faith in God did the heavens open and the destroyer flee.

Of this truth President Gordon B. Hinckley has said: “It was faith, the simple faith of a fourteen-year-old boy, that took him into the woods that spring morning. It was faith that took him to his knees in pleading for understanding. The marvelous fruit of that faith was a vision glorious and beautiful, of which this great work is but the extended shadow.” 3

Of all the many lessons that Joseph learned from the First Vision, surely among the most important were that God does answer prayers and that by faith He can save us in our darkest hour. His faith saved him from his greatest trouble, and from it came the revelation of the Father and the Son and the introduction of the long-prophesied Restoration.

Beginning in 1823, the prophet-apprentice learned much about the first principles from his master teacher, Moroni. Joseph later wrote, “I … received instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews, respecting what the Lord was going to do, and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be conducted in the last days” (JS—H 1:54). When finally entrusted with the gold plates, the young prophet understood the blueprint of the restored gospel, its organization and essential doctrines. President Joseph F. Smith said of this instruction: “He was taught by the angel Moroni. He received his education from above, from God Almighty, and not from man-made institutions, … [and] he possessed a knowledge of God and of his law.” 4

The young prophet also learned firsthand about baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost from heavenly messengers. While translating the Book of Mormon with his scribe, Oliver Cowdery, they “on a certain day [in May 1829] went into the woods” in Harmony Township, Pennsylvania, on the banks of the Susquehanna River “to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that [they had] found mentioned in the translation of the plates” (JS—H 1:68). A vision of yet another heavenly messenger, the resurrected John the Baptist, opened to them. To his young inquirers, John said, “Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins” (JS—H 1:69; emphasis in original). Joseph then baptized Oliver, and afterwards Oliver baptized Joseph.

They then experienced a moment of intense joy and personal revelation. Remembered Oliver, “This earth [has not] power to give the joy, to bestow the peace, or comprehend the wisdom which was contained in each sentence as they were delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit!” 5 Joseph also wrote: “No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him [Oliver], I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church. … We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation” (JS—H 1:73).

Although blessed abundantly, they learned from John the Baptist that the gift of the Holy Ghost would not be conferred upon them until later with the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood by the Apostles Peter, James, and John. 6 And though the Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery baptized other believers for the remission of sins between May 1829 and April 1830, at the organizational meeting of the Church on 6 April 1830 in Fayette, Seneca County, New York, the Prophet noted the following: “We then laid our hands on each [previously baptized] individual member of the Church present that they might receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and be confirmed members of the Church of Christ. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us to a very great degree—some prophesied, whilst we all praised the Lord, and rejoiced exceedingly.” 7 The Prophet was “inspired of the Holy Ghost to lay the foundation” of the Church “and to build it up unto the most holy faith” (D&C 21:2).

From the Consequences of Some Unwise Decisions

Three and a half years after faith was the active first principle in the Sacred Grove in 1820, Joseph knelt in prayer feeling “condemned for [his] weaknesses and imperfections,” yet he had “full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation” (see JS—H 1:29). It was an earnest desire to set things right with God and to repent of some unwise decisions that once more drove him to his knees. Subsequently, on the evening of 21 September 1823, an angel from the presence of God revealed many scriptural truths to the forgiven lad. Joseph was given specific instructions pertaining to the work God had for him to do. Faith opened the heavens the first time, and faith and repentance together did so the second time.

After a season of difficult and intermittent translation of the Book of Mormon, the young prophet in June 1828 reluctantly surrendered 116 pages of Book of Mormon manuscript into the hands of his older benefactor and scribe, Martin Harris. When Martin returned empty-handed and confessed that he had lost the manuscript, Joseph sprang from his breakfast table in anguish and exclaimed in utter self-condemnation: “Oh, my God, my God. All is lost, is lost! What shall I do? I have sinned. It is I who tempted the wrath of God.” 8

Utterly downcast and full of godly sorrow for his disobedience, Joseph stood rebuked and chastened by the Lord. “How strict were your commandments,” the Lord instructed, “… and behold, how oft you have transgressed. … For thou hast suffered the counsel of thy director to be trampled upon from the beginning” (D&C 3:5–6, 15). It was a heaven-sent excoriation that Joseph’s penitent soul understood. Nevertheless, in what must have been soaring relief to the young Prophet, the Lord said, “Remember, God is merciful; … and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work” (D&C 3:10). This early experience impressed upon Joseph Smith’s mind that repentance and trust in God rather than man are indeed requisite for doing the work of the Lord.

Thus from the spring of 1820 to the spring of 1830, on that 10-year road of instruction from Palmyra to Fayette, the Prophet came to personally know and live the first principles and ordinances of the gospel from what he experienced, suffered, overcame, and had revealed to him by heavenly messengers. Just as members of the original church of Christ had been taught by Peter on the day of Pentecost to “repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38), so also had the Prophet Joseph been taught these principles in our day, culminating in the Holy Ghost being poured out to a great degree.

From Translation of Ancient Scripture

Although heavenly messengers were his most intimate instructors, the young prophet also learned of the importance of these principles from the writings he translated, particularly during the fulfillment of his divinely appointed role as translator of the Book of Mormon. The approximately 80 calendar days he spent translating the message of Cumorah into the English language with the aid of the Urim and Thummim and by the power of the Holy Ghost, constituted yet another divine schooling.

The inspired contents of the Book of Mormon deeply impressed the two men. “No men, in their sober senses,” Oliver Cowdery recalled, “could translate and write the directions given to the Nephites from the mouth of the Savior, of the precise manner in which men should build up His Church, and especially when corruption had spread an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men, without desiring a privilege of showing the willingness of the heart by being buried in the liquid grave, to answer a ‘good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ’” (JS—H 1:71, note on pages 58–59).

The first principles and ordinances of the gospel run like a golden thread of truth throughout the entire Book of Mormon, from 1 Nephi through Moroni. The prophet Nephi, son of Lehi, called these principles “the doctrine of Christ” (2 Ne. 31:2). “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost” (2 Ne. 31:13).

Nephi’s younger brother Jacob warned that those who reject the gospel “and deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption” will be brought “to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God” (Jacob 6:8–9).

The prophet Mormon declared in one of his final letters: “The first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

“And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love” (Moro. 8:25–26).

When the Prophet Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon, he found these first principles especially well presented through a powerful sequence of the following four grand discourses in the book of Mosiah: the sermons of King Benjamin (Mosiah 2–5) and Abinadi (Mosiah 11–17) and the teachings of Alma (Mosiah 18, 25–26) and his son, Alma the Younger (Mosiah 27–28). The common denominator in them all is the mission and redemption of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. Furthermore, a central message of King Benjamin’s sermon is faith in Jesus Christ. “Believe in God,” he taught, “believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. … And now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them” (Mosiah 4:9–10).

Repentance, the second principle, is the primary focus of Abinadi’s message to King Noah and his wicked priests. Abinadi boldly preached what the Lord had told him: “Except they repent I will visit them in mine anger,” “except they repent … I will deliver them into the hands of their enemies,” “except this people repent … they shall be brought into bondage,” and “except they repent … I will not hear their prayers” (see Mosiah 11:20–21, 23, 25; emphasis added). After rehearsing the vital messages of the Ten Commandments and the Christ-centered prophecies of Isaiah to his unbelieving audience, Abinadi concluded: “And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?” (Mosiah 16:13).

One of Abinadi’s converts, Alma, fled from King Noah into the wilderness and preached “repentance, and redemption, and faith on the Lord” to his followers (Mosiah 18:7). Alma’s teachings also emphasized that the ordinance of baptism is a covenant and sequel to faith and repentance—a natural progression in the doctrine of Christ. “Now I say unto you,” he said near the Waters of Mormon, “if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?” (Mosiah 18:10). Also, if Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had not fully understood before translating this passage that baptism was to be done by immersion for the remission of sins, they certainly would have afterward.

The last great sermon in Mosiah directly addresses the need for a rebirth of the soul by the Holy Ghost. The account of Alma the Younger’s miraculous conversion speaks less of baptism by water and more of baptism by fire, or being born of the Spirit:

“Marvel not that all mankind … must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

“And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God” (Mosiah 27:25–26).

The incomparable spiritual power and sacred instructions of these four sermons defy simple categorization and analysis. They are charged with long, personal experience and are alive with the Spirit of the Lord—stunning testimonies to the fact that no unschooled farm boy could have ever composed such sublimely simple yet profound verse. Like a spinal cord, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel provide a doctrinal backbone to the book of Mosiah.

Little wonder, then, that two or three years later, when the Prophet was under inspiration revising the New Testament, he paid careful attention to passages which contained the teachings of these principles. For example, in one of the more confusing biblical passages, Hebrews 6:1 [Heb. 6:1], it reads, “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection.” Joseph’s inspired translation inserts the word not before the phrase leaving the principles. Of this change he later commented: “If a man leaves the principles of the doctrine of Christ, how can he be saved in the principles? This is a contradiction. I don’t believe it. I will render it as it should be—‘Therefore not leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.’” 9

The Prophet further learned through his efforts of translating or revising the Old Testament that these doctrines were even taught in their fulness to Adam and Eve and their descendants (see Moses 6:52–68).

From Frequent Divine Inspiration

The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are also found amidst the revelations and instructions given in the Doctrine and Covenants during the early years of the Church. These sacred instructions were received by the Prophet Joseph in answer to prayer, in times of need.

From a revelatory instruction to the Prophet at Manchester, New York, in March 1830 we read: “Of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost” (D&C 19:31).

From a revelation given at Fayette, New York, seven months later we read: “Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

“Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel” (D&C 33:11–12).

The glorious vision of the degrees of glory revealed in February 1832 again contains reference to these fundamental doctrines:

“And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

“That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

“And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true” (D&C 76:50–53).

Little wonder that the Prophet Joseph Smith also taught these principles to those about to depart into their mission fields: “Oh, ye elders of Israel, hearken to my voice; and when you are sent into the world to preach, tell those things you are sent to tell; preach and cry aloud, ‘Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel.’ Declare the first principles, and let mysteries alone, lest ye be overthrown.” 10

Indebted to the Prophet

President John Taylor summarized well the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith in the restoration of the doctrine on the first principles and ordinances when he said: “To what are we indebted for [this] knowledge? To the administration of an angel, which made manifest the order of God to Joseph Smith, and he revealed it unto others—to that we are indebted for the first principles of the Gospel.” 11

Since the Prophet Joseph Smith’s time, every President of the Church has taught the central place these principles and ordinances hold, including President Hinckley: “To me the gospel is not a great mass of theological jargon. It is a simple and beautiful and logical thing, with one quiet truth following another in orderly sequence. … God has revealed in this dispensation a great and marvelous and beautiful plan that motivates men and women to love their Creator and their Redeemer, to appreciate and serve one another, to walk in faith on the road that leads to immortality and eternal life.” 12

They are simple and beautiful truths and, when lived to their fulness, will ever distinguish the gospel of Jesus Christ from any other religion or philosophy upon the earth and will identify the humble obedience of His followers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


TOPICS: Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: ctr; gospel; inman; lds; mormon
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1 posted on 02/14/2011 11:02:14 AM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender
Once again, a mormon lame witness to the world.


2 posted on 02/14/2011 11:06:31 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Paragon Defender
"“Who among us knew the first principles of the Gospel of Christ until we heard them from the Elders of Israel? Who told us that it was right to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins? Who taught us it was right to receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands? … It was communicated to Joseph Smith by the opening of the heavens, by the ministering of Holy Angels, and by the voice of God. … Until these communications were made known [to Joseph], the inhabitants of the world were wrapped in ignorance; they knew nothing about God nor the principles of eternity, nor the way to save themselves nor anybody else.”"

---------------------------------------------

That right there...is an abomination...A lie from the Devil himself...but I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

3 posted on 02/14/2011 11:14:03 AM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: Godzilla
I kind of like this one:

In 2 Nephi 5, we are told how when Nephi landed in the New World, things like gold, silver, and all manner of precious gems were too be found everywhere in abundance. Only a short time later, they built a temple much like Solomon's except that no gold, silver, or precious gems were used "because they were not to be found upon the land"!

4 posted on 02/14/2011 11:15:09 AM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White)
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To: Paragon Defender
www.exmormonsforjesus.org

www.mormoncurtain.com

http://4mormon.org/

http://www.concernedchristians.com/

5 posted on 02/14/2011 11:20:37 AM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: ReverendJames
In 2 Nephi 5, we are told how when Nephi landed in the New World, things like gold, silver, and all manner of precious gems were too be found everywhere in abundance. Only a short time later, they built a temple much like Solomon's except that no gold, silver, or precious gems were used "because they were not to be found upon the land"!

You are aware of that one too LOL, ah yes, the most perfect work.

6 posted on 02/14/2011 11:36:01 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: ReverendJames

Have you got the reference to that second quote as well? Thanks


7 posted on 02/14/2011 11:42:40 AM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Paragon Defender

This is the same Joseph Smith who will sit next to Jesus to determine if we get into heaven (they’re both equals, doncha’ know) . . . the same one who dreamt up the planet Kolab . . . the same Joseph Smith who had chariots, horses, and numerous non-indigenous plants all over Central America.

Anyone who follows this stuff is sure as hell destined for a very long visit to Hell. And how very sad that no mormon will listen to logical criticism of this madness. But that’s their choice.


8 posted on 02/14/2011 11:44:37 AM PST by laweeks
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To: Paragon Defender


Turn the Enterprise around Number One. It appears there's no intelligent life on Planet Kolob....Engage!
9 posted on 02/14/2011 11:45:17 AM PST by Emperor Palpatine (I'm shocked! Shocked to find out that gambling is going on in here!)
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To: ReverendJames

“ONly a short time later”-—can you give us the second scripture reference so we can check it?


10 posted on 02/14/2011 11:47:51 AM PST by eagles
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To: eagles; F15Eagle; ReverendJames
2 Nephi 5:15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
5:16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon's temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.
11 posted on 02/14/2011 11:51:28 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Paragon Defender
Early Church history shows that the Prophet Joseph Smith came to know of these saving principles in at least three ways: (1) from heavenly messengers, (2) from the consequences of some unwise decisions, (3) from his translation of ancient scripture, and (4) from frequent divine inspiration. It was a careful schooling, prepared and profound.

Interesting that no where in that list is "reading the bible."

12 posted on 02/14/2011 11:52:47 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: laweeks

I think your conclusions that God will send all mormons to hell-—or I guess anyone else who doesn’t believe exactly what you do, is quite sad.

I’m LDS. I admit, there are things that my faith professes that I have doubts about it. But that is true with every other church I researched. There is stuff in every religion that seems a bit hard to believe.
That said, what I DO believe, with all my heart, is that God judges the heart. He has promised us that the two greatest commandments are to LOVE God and Love your neighbor. There are many mormons I know that are every bit as good and sincere in loving God and serving Him as they are in other faiths. Even if they are wrong in some things-—I dont’ believe for one minute they are going to hell. Call me a heretic, but the God I love is merciful enough to look the past the externals and judge the heart.


13 posted on 02/14/2011 11:57:00 AM PST by eagles
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To: Godzilla

I also like the story of the storm tossed boats on their way here, their troubles and solution is hysteric.


14 posted on 02/14/2011 12:04:07 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White)
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To: Paragon Defender
 
- Warning -
 
This post has been flagged as Cultic Mormon Spam
by Christians on FreeRepublic.com
 
Let the reader beware!


15 posted on 02/14/2011 12:04:23 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: eagles

“Call me a heretic, but the God I love is merciful enough to look the past the externals and judge the heart”

Then you must be a heretic. It’s very clear. The only path to Heaven is through Jesus Christ . . . I didn’t write the Bible . . . God did. If you want to try to toddle into Heaven by believing what a rather iffy-character dreamt up back in the early 1820s, then, so be it. I will rely on God’s written word . . . not that of a mortal and horribly imperfect human being with a very shady pre-morman past.


16 posted on 02/14/2011 12:04:23 PM PST by laweeks
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To: Paragon Defender
Here is a letter from the Geographic Society.

Photobucket

The National Geographic Society is just one group of many that can't find any evidence supporting the BoM. In fact, they have found evidence that refutes what Joseph Smith has claimed. If there are no Nephites or Lamanites, then the whole book of mormon is wrong.

17 posted on 02/14/2011 12:06:06 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Godzilla

Thanks. Joseph Smith had trouble keeping all of his fake stories straight. He even contradicts himself on the Garden of Eden, as I understand it. “book of moses” versus his “Jackson County, Missouri revelation”.

What a scam. People need to cut themselves loose from this false prophet ASAP and stop leading others into his phony-baloney stories.


18 posted on 02/14/2011 12:08:09 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Paragon Defender

Mormon Missionary Deception Method:

1. Convince you of their sincerity
2. Trick you into expressing faith first in the Book of Mormon by praying and asking for a sign (this takes you off the objective ground of Biblical truth and puts you into subjective ground of feelings)
3. Convince you that the Bible has errors in its translation
4. Trick you into expressing faith in the prophet Joseph Smith
5. Trick you into expressing faith in the Restoration of the “Gospel” (see Galatians Chapter one)
6. Get you all the way into the baptismal font...

..........................................................

7. ONLY THEN... you will learn the true DEVIANT doctrines of
Mormonism. At this point, it is too late! You only have
feelings as a basis of truth! You will believe anything.

..........................................................

Such as the following “truths” taught in mormonism ...

The 3 Mormon Earth gods:

The mormon “Heavenly Father” used to be a regular Joe - a man, but became God. You will have to swallow that God could sin!

The Jesus of mormonism was a created spirit being who became one of the three mormon earth gods
The mormonic Holy Spirit is also a created spirit being. He doesn’t have a body because he is on probation! Yes, he was naughty. He sinned.

In short, the mormon earth gods are sinful, created spirit beings. But there is more...

The FOURTH Mormon Earth God!

The Mormon Heavenly Mother God!

Yes, believe it or not, it turns out there is a mormonic “Mother God!”

... SHE and the father god have sex
... SHE is eternally pregnant
... SHE pops out spirit children who will some day get a human body on earth
... SHE is probably not alone! Mormons still believe and teach eternal polygamy.

The Mormonic Pantheon of gods:

There are TRILLIONS of mormon gods on other planets.
Hindus have approximately 350 million gods. They are
pikers compared to mormons!

How do they get so many gods? They manufacture more all the
time:

... Any mormon male can be a God with his own planet, mother goddesses, and spirit kids to worship him.
... Becoming a mormon god means lots of works to attain the god-level. This is why you see mormons working so hard. Now you know why.
... Speaking of levels, heaven has three levels.
... All the trillions of gods in the mormon pantheon get together regularly over spring break in Kolob Beach to “counsel together”

As our thread poster would finish with... I testify truthfully about the false heresy of the cult of mormonism.

Reader beware of these Anti-Christ teachings.

What will your life be like as a mormon?

... you have to give 10%?
... your bishop is there to ask if you gave your FULL tithe
... your bishop is also there to ask many probing, personal, embarrassing questions
... Did we mention you will
... you will have to complete Masonic Temple rituals that involve strangers touching your private parts
... You will have to wear magic underwear 24/7/365

Once inside the Morg, you have to accept it ALL to move up the chain towards Godhood.


19 posted on 02/14/2011 12:08:31 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Godzilla

Thanks for that follow up. It was only one verse away from being abundant to not found. And since parts the temple of Solomon are still extant in Jerusalem, why are there no parts of it that Nephi had built still around in America?


20 posted on 02/14/2011 12:08:49 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White)
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To: ReverendJames
2 Nephi

16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

1 Kgs. 5:17
And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.

He did not say that he didn't use wood, iron, copper, brass, steel, gold, silver, and ores, but that some of the same stones use in Solomon's temple were no available

21 posted on 02/14/2011 12:10:59 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: Godzilla

Your assuming, of course, that by precious things he is referring to the gold and silver he just mentioned. But how do you know that there weren’t some other ingredients he considered more precious that were included in Solomon’s temple, but not the one he is describing.


22 posted on 02/14/2011 12:16:10 PM PST by eagles
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To: laweeks

I believe in Jesus Christ and I sincerely love Him. But i think your belief system is really sad. It makes Him sound almost as intolerant as the Muslim’s allah.


23 posted on 02/14/2011 12:18:50 PM PST by eagles
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To: eagles
exactly
24 posted on 02/14/2011 12:19:50 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: eagles

“I believe in Jesus Christ and I sincerely love Him. But i think your belief system is really sad. It makes Him sound almost as intolerant as the Muslim’s allah.”

How sad that you’d compare me to the muslim insanity. All I rely on are Jesus’s words . . . you rely on the ramblings of an apostate who couldn’t even come up with a cogent Central American history and new planets . . .

Intolerance has nothing to do with salvation. You’re either with Jesus’s words or you’re on you way to hell. I didn’t make that up . . . God did. Tell God that He’s intolerant. Or you can tell Joseph Smith and Jesus (as you believe) when they sit side by side to determine your fate. Which one is it? There’s still time to repent and relent.


25 posted on 02/14/2011 12:25:51 PM PST by laweeks
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To: eagles
I think your conclusions that God will send all mormons to hell-—or I guess anyone else who doesn’t believe exactly what you do, is quite sad.

People condemn themselves for not accepting the Gospel eagles - this is inclusive of mormons.

I’m LDS. I admit, there are things that my faith professes that I have doubts about it. But that is true with every other church I researched. There is stuff in every religion that seems a bit hard to believe.

Lets take a foundational look eagles - in the news - egyptian artifacts were looted. Egypt is clearly referred to in the Bible, as are many other cities, nations and cultures - mapped and identified with physical artifacts far older than the bom period.

Can you tell me where the bom lands are eagles? Ash, an apolgist who writes for FAIR has posted that there are dozens of theories, but no one can definitively place their finger on a map with proof of a nephite city, person or anything. What do you call a book that writes about events that never occured? Did smith REALLY translate gold plates?

Call me a heretic, but the God I love is merciful enough to look the past the externals and judge the heart.

Then your position as a mormon is indeed fragile eagles. Mormon scriptures tell me that:

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 1:31-32: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 82:7: “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”

Is this the judgement of the heart you are looking for eagles? Do you meet the standard required by mormon doctrines?

ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.”

I have to shrug eagles and wonder what your concept of the God you love is. These are supposedly statements from this God. If mormonism cannot promise you forgiveness, what does it have to offer?

Can the God of mormonism look past the externals?

Why is it only temple-married mormons have the promise of godhood? Why do you have to prove your worthiness in mormonism on the basis of works to obtain the grace of God (you must be free of ALL ungodliness before his grace is sufficient - MORONI 10:32).

There is a way that God has created in His mercy to look past those externals and judge the heart - but that grace is not found in the teachings of mormonism eagles, but in the true Gospel of Christ -

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

This is just the beginning of the dramatic change from mormonism eagles. Read the Bible and pray to KNOW the truth presented there and to really KNOW Jesus, seek Jesus and understand Jesus. Accept Jesus as your personal Savior and begin an epic journey - the way that God provided through His mercy to look past the externals and to your heart.

26 posted on 02/14/2011 12:26:39 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: BlueMoose

Putting aside for the moment regarding the ‘precious things’ found and not found; just move to the part about ‘steel’. Steel was not invented until AD1100 or thereabouts. It was called Damascus steel at the time. This is way out of date for Nephi using the term ‘steel’ in the Book of Mormon. But you still have to go back to ‘yes there were precious things’ to ‘they were not found’ regardless of the fact whether or not they were used. There’s a contradiction there that you can’t answer. Nephi is saying the manner of construction was like unto the temple of Solomon and you’re saying that it wasn’t.


27 posted on 02/14/2011 12:27:14 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White)
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To: eagles
Your assuming, of course, that by precious things he is referring to the gold and silver he just mentioned. But how do you know that there weren’t some other ingredients he considered more precious that were included in Solomon’s temple, but not the one he is describing.

You are making an excuse via an arguement of silence. For starters, since it was built after Solomon's temple (which according to the nephi legend he was familar with) it would have contained precious metals - in fact they were used for key parts of the temple.

Read it again - these items were used for other buildings? And if the list of things that were in abundance just one verse before are not precious, just what "precious" things were lacking in the construction of this temple eagles?

28 posted on 02/14/2011 12:32:28 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: BlueMoose

OK, so what ‘precious’ items were left out of the temple BM?


29 posted on 02/14/2011 12:34:15 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/01/cahokia/hodges-text


30 posted on 02/14/2011 12:35:38 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: BlueMoose

Blue,
You must be smoking crack, if by your link you meant to imply that the small settlement in the article remotely fits the description of the book of mormonites. It isn’t even remotely close FRiend.

Still, I can understand on a human level why you would grasp at ANYTHING that sounds remotely like it might support the wild claims in the bom.

I suggest you go back to your book and read the descriptions and see the failure to connect. If I point it out, it will likely be discounted. Better you should read both and compare.

Have they found Jewish DNA at the site of your link...?

ampu


31 posted on 02/14/2011 12:41:20 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: BlueMoose

“Mormonism....all hat, no Curelom”

As dawn breaks over mesoAmerica, the trumpeting screams of the hairy curelom echo across the surrounding cites.

Iron-workers interrupt their production of vast metal works, cities that stretched from sea to shining sea hush in anticipation of another wonderful day in mormon-land.

Just last week, the mormon Jesus had visited to let native Americans know they were really Jews! What a wonderful time to be alive!!!

Flash forward.

America today: If a native American Curelom was watching, he would have a tear in his eye...

All original cities, vanished, leaving nothing behind - not even a cigar butt!

Not even a single foundation of a single iron-worker’s furnace remains.

Not even a single metal work produced here.

And, as it turns out, Cureloms didn’t have bones. Apparently, Cureloms had the structure of jellyfish and today, no evidence remains of their once proud reign!

Only the savage cry of the curelom remains in the brains of mormons who “just believe”, despite any physical evidence.

Only the ring of the ancient iron-workers hammer echos in the minds of mormons who “just believe”, despite the amazing disappearance of millions of metal works.

Only the cheerful laughter remains in the minds of mormons, who insist millions of people lived in cities across America - because Joseph Smith said so!

As it turns out, they too, had the structure of jellyfish.

No bones.
No metalworks.
No cities.
No Cureloms.

A tear wells up in the corner of the imaginary Curelom, envisioned within the brain of mormons today.

And the Jewish Indians?

Gone. Replaced with imposters who no longer carry Jewish DNA.

Ah, but the piercing cry of the Curelom remains!!!

They will testify! Oh, how mormons will testify of the Curelom. Joe said!!!

ampu

:-)


32 posted on 02/14/2011 12:43:47 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: eagles

“I believe in Jesus Christ and I sincerely love Him. But i think your belief system is really sad. It makes Him sound almost as intolerant as the Muslim’s allah.”

Perhaps, then, you should take some time to read the Bible and learn what HE says about HIMSELF.

If you substitute what you want to believe, you are making an idol. Mormonism does this to God in every way.

Don’t be taken in. Read the Bible for yourself - apart from what the bom reads INTO the Bible that isn’t there.


33 posted on 02/14/2011 12:46:47 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Godzilla

NO Your telling me what things were not there. The verse says SOMETHINGS were not available What I’m to understand you are saying NONE of these were available. I don’t read it that way.


34 posted on 02/14/2011 12:56:01 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: ReverendJames
Nephi is saying the manner of construction was like unto the temple of Solomon and you’re saying that it wasn’t.

NO that is not what I'm saying.

If they worked with Iron could they not have found the secret of steel. I understand you are saying they didn't know how to refine Iron.

35 posted on 02/14/2011 1:25:33 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

I have read the Bible over and over and over. But if its interpretation is as clear as you are making it out to be, then why are there over 1,000 Christian churches!!!...all of which argue over the tenets of their faith?

Are Catholics going to hell? Are Presbyterians? Are Muslims? What if someone in Tibet is never even exposed to Christianity? Is he/she going to hell too?
Religion can get so confusing and dogmatic. Even look at the posts here-—the tone of making fun of a religion. Even if it were false, I can’t see the Lord ever making fun of someone’s sincere belief. He never did. He taught with a spirit of love and understanding. Surely if the people here REALLy cared about Mormons, they would realize that making fun of someone’s faith only pushes them further away.
I don’t substitute what I want to believe; I substitute what is in my heart, when I can not understand what a scripture is telling me. I have learned more and more to listen to the still small voice and pray for inspiration. There are huge gaps in my knowledge-—and a lot of things I am not sure of. But I am sure of this: God lives, Jesus is the Christ-—and my personal savior— and He is nowhere near as unforgiving as you think He is.


36 posted on 02/14/2011 1:27:33 PM PST by eagles
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To: eagles

“I have read the Bible over and over and over. But if its interpretation is as clear as you are making it out to be, then why are there over 1,000 Christian churches!!!...all of which argue over the tenets of their faith?”

Oh contraire my friend. The inmans here are from every conceivable Christian background. We are unified on the central doctrines of our mutual Christian faith.

“Are Catholics going to hell? Are Presbyterians?”

Those going to heaven are going there by the GRACE of GOD and apart from works. They are those who receive that grace through faith in what Christ has done. It does not matter which church someone is in or not in. Same basis for all.

“Are Muslims? What if someone in Tibet is never even exposed to Christianity? Is he/she going to hell too?”

God can handle it. He knows exactly the most loving thing and the most Just thing to do. YOU however, hear the gospel of grace here and apparently prefer your own works of righteousness that can lead you to hell. What will you do?

“Religion can get so confusing and dogmatic. Even look at the posts here-—the tone of making fun of a religion. Even if it were false, I can’t see the Lord ever making fun of someone’s sincere belief.”

First, a small percentage of what Christ said was recorded, so you do not know that. Second, the Apostle Paul used satire.

“Surely if the people here REALLy cared about Mormons, they would realize that making fun of someone’s faith only pushes them further away.”

In my experience, it takes shaking a mormon up before they consider what is true with fresh eyes. Perhaps it is those who read these threads, who are not participating in the conversation who are why we post. Your assumption is incorrect, therefore.

“I don’t substitute what I want to believe; I substitute what is in my heart, when I can not understand what a scripture is telling me. I have learned more and more to listen to the still small voice and pray for inspiration.”

And the response you get that says Joseph Smith is a prophet is satanic in origin. Feelings are no substitute for objective truth. They may confirm it. They do not define it.

“There are huge gaps in my knowledge-—and a lot of things I am not sure of. But I am sure of this: God lives, Jesus is the Christ-—and my personal savior— and He is nowhere near as unforgiving as you think He is.”

1. You do not know what I believe
2. It doesn’t matter what you think - He is who He is apart from what you think
3. Christ’s FIRST act when He returns is to KILL HIS ENEMIES. How does that fit in with your feelings about forgiveness?

4. MOST IMPORTANTLY - If by Christ you mean the mormon Jesus, created spirit who became a god - it is irrelevant.
That will not get you to heaven. Faith is only as good as the object of faith it is placed in. The Biblical Christ is God, has always been God and is neither created nor made. Only He qualified to lay His life down.

In summary, there is nothing mormonism adds to Biblical Christianity. It takes the most important things away.

best,
ampu


37 posted on 02/14/2011 1:39:41 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: BlueMoose
NO Your telling me what things were not there. The verse says SOMETHINGS were not available What I’m to understand you are saying NONE of these were available. I don’t read it that way.

Read the passage a little slower bm. The first verse states clearly that these things were found in "GREAT ABUNDANCE"

The very next verse states that precious things weren't used because they were not found on the land.

Very simple act of deducting bm. What " precious things" were not used in verse 16 that were mentioned in verse 15?

Further bm, according to the Bible, it took 150,000 men seven years to build the temple, but nephite crew of a dozen or so men managed just fine.

38 posted on 02/14/2011 1:50:14 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: BlueMoose
I'm just sticking with what Nephi said in one verse vs what he said in the very next one.

I can give you that maybe Nephi found the secret of steel but I doubt that he did. Why have iron when you could have steel. Plus, how to manufacture enough of it for whatever purpose he needed it for. It's a pretty complicated process.

39 posted on 02/14/2011 2:13:23 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White)
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To: Osage Orange
That right there...is an abomination...A lie from the Devil himself

They don't have a clue, just how blasphemous most of their utterances are, or worse, they know and spew it anyway.

40 posted on 02/14/2011 2:53:41 PM PST by Graybeard58 (Of course Obama loves his country. The thing is, Sarah loves mine.)
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To: eagles
Surely if the people here REALLy cared about Mormons, they would realize that making fun of someone’s faith only pushes them further away.

"I’ve always marveled at folks who feel worthy enough to decide where they think my soul or anyone else’s soul is going to spend eternity. The scriptures are clear on that one too: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

41 posted on 02/14/2011 2:53:52 PM PST by greyfoxx39 ("This administration has turned off America's beacon to the world for freedom and left darkness")
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place marker
42 posted on 02/14/2011 2:55:51 PM PST by svcw (God in His own time not ours)
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To: BlueMoose; ReverendJames
If they worked with Iron could they not have found the secret of steel. I understand you are saying they didn't know how to refine Iron.

Please tell us where such advanced metallurgy has been identified with the bom age in the americas (provided you think the bom lands were in america). Mining and smelting leave things that are nearly indestructable over the short period of time we are talking here - mines, slag, retorts, charcoal kilns, etc. Evidence of such a culture is completely absent in the Americas bm during the bom era. If they had steel - why is FARMS/Maxwell trying to convince all that the nephites REALLY had clubs with chips of flint in them for "STEEL" swords eh?

43 posted on 02/14/2011 2:57:38 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Paragon Defender
Carefully Schooled .....

Yup!

They sure got this down pat!

44 posted on 02/14/2011 2:59:15 PM PST by Elsie
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To: Paragon Defender

I admire your tenacity, if nothing else.


45 posted on 02/14/2011 3:02:20 PM PST by colorcountry (Comforting lies are not your friends. Painful truths are not your enemies.)
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To: eagles
Even if they are wrong in some things-—I dont’ believe for one minute they are going to hell. Call me a heretic, but the God I love is merciful enough to look the past the externals and judge the heart.

As sure as hell exists it is populated. Your statement sounds like the Oprahized version of Christianity or maybe less insulting, the Joel Olsteen version.

Exodus 33 V.19 (KJV):

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

46 posted on 02/14/2011 3:03:49 PM PST by Graybeard58 (Of course Obama loves his country. The thing is, Sarah loves mine.)
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To: Paragon Defender
 

From Translation of Ancient Scripture

Although heavenly messengers were his most intimate instructors, the young prophet also learned of the importance of these principles from the writings he translated, particularly during the fulfillment of his divinely appointed role as translator of the Book of Mormon. The approximately 80 calendar days he spent translating the message of Cumorah into the English language with the aid of the Urim and Thummim and by the power of the Holy Ghost, constituted yet another divine schooling.O...K...




"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4RPpWfvVNs&feature=related

47 posted on 02/14/2011 3:04:25 PM PST by Elsie
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To: Paragon Defender
Hey there PD!

Didja give up on the famous List-o-Links®?

No one's going over to your links so you gotta post a bunch of MORMON teachings directly in the thread?

You be learnin', boy, for that's what we INMEN have done for YEARS!

48 posted on 02/14/2011 3:06:30 PM PST by Elsie
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To: Godzilla

The VERY NEXT VERSE???


49 posted on 02/14/2011 3:08:13 PM PST by Elsie
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To: Godzilla
...and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores,...

Uh; LORD?

Do you REALLY mean STEEL here, and not just IRON??

50 posted on 02/14/2011 3:09:14 PM PST by Elsie
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