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Survey: 65 Percent of Americans Support Prayer in Public Schools
The Christian Post ^ | Feb. 14 2011 | Jennifer Riley

Posted on 02/14/2011 12:04:23 PM PST by wmfights

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But despite activists’ efforts, every year millions of students gather at their schools’ flagpoles to pray. In 2010, more than 3 million students participated in the “See You At the Pole” grassroots prayer movement that allows students to intercede for their leaders, schools , and families.


1 posted on 02/14/2011 12:04:29 PM PST by wmfights
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To: wmfights

Polls on Free Republic are considered junk so I don’t know what to say about this poll. I was able to say prayers everyday at school....in fact the entire class did. It is called Catholic School....I went for 13 years and never was told not to pray. People have the option to send their children to Catholic School or Private School. It is called choices. I am sorry that the latest TV might be out of the question because of tuition but you sacrifice for your family and principles.


2 posted on 02/14/2011 12:08:49 PM PST by napscoordinator
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To: wmfights

Be careful what you wish for. Do you have any idea how many schools in this country would be insisting on offering islamic, hindi and other pagan prayers?


3 posted on 02/14/2011 12:11:46 PM PST by pgkdan (Protect and Defend America! End the practice of islam on our shores before it's too late!)
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To: wmfights
If the government is powerful enough to force Christian prayer on non-Christians, then the government is powerful enough to force Muslim, Mormon, Wiccan, Buddhist, Hindu or Sikh prayer on Christians.

At best the Christians would get a sprinkle of prayer in the morning and the rest of the day the government would establish the government religion of godless secularism. Oh wow! Why am I **not** impressed. ( sigh)

At the very best the government schools would be offering up a generic and lukewarm minute or two of prayer. We know what Christ does with the lukewarm. He spits them out of His mouth!

Solution: Begin the process of privatizing all K-12 education. Work to get our children into private conservative schools that thoroughly and completely integrate Judeo Christian belief and our nation's founding principles into every minute of the child's school day.

4 posted on 02/14/2011 12:13:20 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wmfights

The democrats will NEVER allow prayer in the Government schools.
If people learn to depend on God the politicians lose power.
Government wants everyone dependent on them.


5 posted on 02/14/2011 12:13:34 PM PST by SECURE AMERICA
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To: napscoordinator

I’m kinda with you on this one. That any middle class American would send his or her children to a public school with the expectation that the government would inculcate Christian values into them is puzzling.


6 posted on 02/14/2011 12:17:49 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: wmfights

That’s fine, I’m not opposed to students gathering privately in public schools to pray during their free time. What I am against is schools forcing students to sit through prayers. Churches and private gatherings are for prayers. Public schools should not be places of government-organized worship.


7 posted on 02/14/2011 12:18:00 PM PST by driftless2 (For long-term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: napscoordinator

People have the option to send their children to Catholic School or Private School. It is called choices.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

They have the option to **RANSOM** their children. They have the option ( still) to pay JIZYA.

All citizens are required ( under the threat of armed police action) to support government schools that **ESTABLISH** the godless government religion of secular humanism.

All parents are under police threat to send their children into the government temples of godlessness ( misnamed “schools”). If they can not afford JIZYA or RANSOM their children **WILL** be taught the government godless religion of secular humanism in the government godless temples ( misnamed “schools”).

All government schools in this nation are a First Amendment and freedom of conscience abomination!


8 posted on 02/14/2011 12:20:02 PM PST by wintertime
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To: driftless2

What I am against is schools forcing students to sit through prayers.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Then you should be equally outraged that government schools teach everything through the lens of a godless worldview. They teach ( in fact, FORCE) children to think godlessly. At best children are FORCED to compartmentalize their faith.

Government schools **establish** the godless religion of secular humanism. ALL of them do this ( the good, the bad, and the ugly!).

There is only one solution!

We must begin the process of privatizing all K-12 education.

ALL government schools in this nation are a religious First Amendment and freedom of conscience ABOMINATION!


9 posted on 02/14/2011 12:25:23 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

I forgot about homeschooling too. I have three folks in my office that homeschool their children. I know a few years ago you and I got into it about homeschooling, but I now have a different outlook on it. I have watched them with the kids and also they are so well behaved. I support homeschooling 100 percent today.....In fact, I owe you a huge apology for years of my BS towards your supporting Homeschooling. I am sorry!!!!


10 posted on 02/14/2011 12:25:55 PM PST by napscoordinator
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To: wmfights

too bad, becaus the getting porn and condoms


11 posted on 02/14/2011 12:27:23 PM PST by GeronL (http://www.stink-eye.net/forum/index.php for FR backup site!)
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To: driftless2

Government schools never were, are not now, and NEVER can be religiously neutral. Why?

Answer: Because it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a religiously neutral education! It is axiomatic.

At the moment all government schools in this nation are establishing the religion of godless secular humanism. ALL government schools in this nation teach ( FORCE) children to think godlessly.


12 posted on 02/14/2011 12:28:14 PM PST by wintertime
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To: pgkdan

They already allow Islamic-only prayers in some schools.


13 posted on 02/14/2011 12:28:24 PM PST by GeronL (http://www.stink-eye.net/forum/index.php for FR backup site!)
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To: napscoordinator

.....In fact, I owe you a huge apology for years of my BS towards your supporting Homeschooling. I am sorry!!!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well! Thank you! Seriously, you have made my whole day! :-)

Wintertime


14 posted on 02/14/2011 12:30:42 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

I am glad, but I am serious about how horrible I feel about it.


15 posted on 02/14/2011 12:32:08 PM PST by napscoordinator
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To: wintertime

Public schools are not supposed to teach any kind of theism. That is for parents and religious organizations. Put your kids in a private school then, but don’t start religion in public schools.


16 posted on 02/14/2011 12:33:56 PM PST by driftless2 (For long-term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: wmfights

I never needed any government ruling telling me whether or not I could pray in school.

Like any other kid, come finals time, I quietly prayed that I would pass the damn exam.


17 posted on 02/14/2011 12:39:35 PM PST by Le Chien Rouge
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To: SECURE AMERICA
Government wants everyone dependent on them.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

From the very first minute a child walks into a government school he begins his dependence on government. Government schools are fundamentally collectivism and socialism.

The child learn (merely by attending) that government has the police power to FORCE his neighbor to pay for a service the his parents want for tuition=free. They learn that the voting mob comrade committees ( school boards) can control their very thoughts.

Well!... If government and comrade people's committees can force a neighbor to pay for tuition-free schooling, why not thousands of other socialist goods and services?

Woodrow Wilson, the IRS, the federal reserve, Franklin D. Roosevelt, the New Deal, the Great Society, Carter, Clinton, and Obama were not accidents. GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS MADE THEM INEVITABLE!!!

Government schooling definitely teaches children two things:

** how to think godlessly
** to be comfortable with collectivist socialism.

18 posted on 02/14/2011 12:42:31 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wmfights
For those who don't know:

- The words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

- The 1st Amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." {emphasis added}

- It wasn't until the early 1960's that prayer in public school was "outlawed" by a new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

- The history of the U.S. includes prayer and Bible readings in all sorts of public places, including schools and Congress.

- In 1782, the United States Congress passed the following resolution: "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."

William Holmes McGuffey, the author of the McGuffey Reader (used ofr over 100 years in U.S. public schools), declared: "The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology."

- Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636.

- In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, (John 17:3); and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3)."

{Excerpts from AllAboutPopularIssues.org}

19 posted on 02/14/2011 12:46:59 PM PST by jda ("Righteousness exalts a nation . . .")
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To: driftless2
Public schools are not supposed to teach any kind of theism.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So?...It is Ok then for government to FORCE children to think godlessly? It is OK for government to FORCE childrern to compartmentalize their faith? Huh?

How can THAT be religiously neutral??? Huh?

Answer: It isn't!

It is axiomatic! A religiously neutral education is impossible. NO government school in this nation is religiously neutral. ALL government schools teach children to think godlessly. ALL government schools establish the atheistic religion of secular humanism.

And...Unlucky taxpayers get to pay for these government temples of godless worship ( misnamed “schools”).

20 posted on 02/14/2011 12:47:31 PM PST by wintertime
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To: driftless2
Public schools are not supposed to teach any kind of theism.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So?...It is Ok then for government to FORCE children to think godlessly? It is OK for government to FORCE children to compartmentalize their faith? Huh?

How can THAT be religiously neutral??? Huh?

Answer: It isn't!

It is axiomatic! A religiously neutral education is impossible. NO government school in this nation is religiously neutral. ALL government schools teach children to think godlessly. ALL government schools establish the atheistic religion of secular humanism.

And...Unlucky taxpayers get to pay for these government temples of godless worship ( misnamed “schools”).

21 posted on 02/14/2011 12:47:37 PM PST by wintertime
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To: napscoordinator

Drip drip drip. :-)

One person at a time sees the plain evidence of homeschooling. With evidence that is how minds are changed.


22 posted on 02/14/2011 12:49:48 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wmfights

What a horrible mangling of the actual argument.

I prayed every day of public school, at the flagpole.

The Constitutional issue is if there should be Teacher led, school endorsed and/or mandated sectarian prayer in school.


23 posted on 02/14/2011 12:50:53 PM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: pgkdan

Yeah — what happens if it turns out that the school’s prayer begins “Allah Akbar...”?


24 posted on 02/14/2011 12:51:28 PM PST by zeohti
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To: jda
Thank you for the information and your input.
25 posted on 02/14/2011 12:55:54 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wintertime
Your remarks remind me of a discussion group we had in college about religion in public schools. I was in a group of four people. I am a deist, one of the persons was a fundamentalist christian, and the other two were catholics.

When we first started discussing the issue it was the three of them against me. During the discussion I was arguing for neutrality by the schools. They were of course arguing for school prayer. I then asked them what prayer would we use. The protestant argued that the majority should decide. I then stated the fact that the largest single denomination in the country is catholic and suggested we start the day with a prayer to mary. The protestant was of course aghast and blurted out that catholics weren't real christians. Needless to say after that I had two new converts to my side.

I understand that in your world view there is no neutrality. However, the government schools you degenerate so much have made this the wealthiest and most free nation in the world. The big problem I see with the public schools is we try to do the impossible. Unlike the rest of the western world we try to get everyone to graduate from high school and be college prep.

As far as going entirely to private schools most state constitutions require that the state provide a public education to all children. Therefore you would have to get a state constitutional amendment passed to get rid of public schools.

26 posted on 02/14/2011 12:58:53 PM PST by armordog99
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To: armordog99

...I was arguing for neutrality by the schools.
...the government schools you degenerate so much have made this the wealthiest and most free nation in the world.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Teaching children to think and reason godlessly, and/or teaching them to compartmentalize their faith is NOT religiously neutral. It **IS** establishing the godless government sponsored religion of secular humanism.

Here are a few questions and comments:

—Where are the double blind studies that prove government schools are responsible for the wealth and freedom of this nation?

— It is possible the if children did NOT attend socialist schools they would be far less comfortable with socialism as adults.

—How do you know that government schools have produced wealth? Hm? Perhaps we are wealthy for other reasons.

—Maybe we are wealthy IN SPITE of the damage that government has done to education.

— Where are the controlled scientific studies that show specifically where learning happens? Is it in the classroom, or is 99% of what is learned due to the parents and the child IN THE HOME?

— Without these controlled studies how do we know if children would have actually done better if they spent less time in school and more time at HOME? It is possible that government schooling actually retards social, emotional, and academic progress. The phenomenal success of homeschooling seems to indicate that institutionalizing children does indeed retard their development.

—Is is possible that the only thing government schools do is send home a curriculum for parents and children to follow, grade projects, and administer tests of the knowledge acquired in the home?


27 posted on 02/14/2011 1:16:16 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wmfights

Muslims like the idea of prayer in School as well.


28 posted on 02/14/2011 1:20:06 PM PST by Rightly Biased (Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?)
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To: armordog99
most state constitutions require that the state provide a public education to all children.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Vouchers have been ruled constitutional by the U.S. Supreme court.

If state constitutions require the existence of collectivist, socialist-funded, voting mob and comrade committe managed ( school board, prison-like, government schools, then there is an internal conflict between compulsory government schooling and the U.S. First Amendment and any state First Amendments.

ALL government schools are in complete and utter conflict with the First Amendment and freedom of conscience.

ALL government schools trash free speech, free press, free assembly, free exercise of religion, and establishment of religion.

29 posted on 02/14/2011 1:33:22 PM PST by wintertime
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To: zeohti

And you know that in many school districts across the country that’s exactly what would happen!


30 posted on 02/14/2011 1:35:13 PM PST by pgkdan (Protect and Defend America! End the practice of islam on our shores before it's too late!)
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To: wmfights

I went through the Canal Zone government school system. Mondays through Fridays we faced the flag, which was in every classroom, and recited the Pledge of Allegiance and sang a patriotic song. The song depended on the grade level. For example, what six graders sang was more complicated than what first graders sang.

Sundays were for Sunday school or whatever one chose to do outside the school system concerning religion. Period.

To this day, I have never, ever understood and do not accept forcing prayers into the public school system by overzealous religious people who want to impose their beliefs on everybody else.

That is what Sunday school is for. Public schools are public and not private institutions and not some arm of a religious group.

How would these same religious groups like to be forced to pray Muslim prayers in public schools?


31 posted on 02/14/2011 1:59:11 PM PST by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
To this day, I have never, ever understood and do not accept forcing prayers into the public school system by overzealous religious people who want to impose their beliefs on everybody else.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can I help you understand that having a god=free ( godless) school is NOT religiously neutral?

Fundamentally, a religiously neutral education is impossible. Every school must choose between two religious worldviews: God-centered or godless. Neither is religiously neutral in curriculum and policy content or in consequences for the child and the nation.

God-free ( Godless) schools force children who have a specific faith to think in a godless manner and/or to compartmentalize their faith. Godless schools establish the religion of secular humanism.

I do understand that you did attend godless government schools. It has been my experience that many who have attended godless government schools simply have a very hard time wrapping their minds around the idea that their schools were not, never have been, and can not be religiously neutral.

32 posted on 02/14/2011 2:22:02 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

Ref. post #20.

That is why there is Sunday School and one’s family at home.

If I were a confirmed atheist, which I am not, I should not have to put up with any kind of religion shoved down my throat in a public school supported by taxpayers and not supported by any religious groups.


33 posted on 02/14/2011 2:37:18 PM PST by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: armordog99
I understand that in your world view there is no neutrality
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This isn't **my** “opinion”.

It is impossible for a sentient being to be religiously neutral. ALL sentient humans have a religious worldview. It is either godless, agnostic, or God-centered.

In the same way it is impossible for any school to be religiously neutral. It is impossible for government schools to be religiously neutral.

For this reason, we should begin the process of privatizing K-12 education. Vouchers, tax credits, and charters can help in the process of building a completely private infrastructure. Eventually, we should strive for complete separation of school and state.

34 posted on 02/14/2011 2:37:31 PM PST by wintertime
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To: armordog99
I understand that in your world view there is no neutrality
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This isn't **my** “opinion”.

It is impossible for a sentient being to be religiously neutral. ALL sentient humans have a religious worldview. It is either godless, agnostic, or God-centered.

In the same way it is impossible for any school to be religiously neutral. It is impossible for government schools to be religiously neutral.

For this reason, we should begin the process of privatizing K-12 education. Vouchers, tax credits, and charters can help in the process of building a completely private infrastructure. Eventually, we should strive for complete separation of school and state.

35 posted on 02/14/2011 2:37:49 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

P.S.

Ref post #20 again.

You need to start you own school.


36 posted on 02/14/2011 2:39:14 PM PST by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
I should not have to put up with any kind of religion shoved down my throat in a public school supported by taxpayers and not supported by any religious groups.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Those with God-centered worldviews should not have a godless worldview shoved down their children's throats, nor should they be forced to pay taxes for this religiously non-neutral indoctrination.

Solution: Begin the process of privatization. Vouchers, tax credits, and charters can help build the private infrastructure needed. Eventually, we should move to complete separation of school and state.

37 posted on 02/14/2011 2:41:23 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wmfights

I oppose prayer in government schools.

The government schools shouldn’t exist in the first place.


38 posted on 02/14/2011 2:42:34 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: armordog99
However, the government schools you degenerate so much have made this the wealthiest and most free nation in the world.

Would you like to prove that assertion?

Do you know what the word "degenerate" means?

39 posted on 02/14/2011 2:48:38 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I oppose prayer in government schools.

The government schools shouldn’t exist in the first place.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

YES! YES! YES!


40 posted on 02/14/2011 2:50:26 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime
Alright, you got me on the public schools contributing to the wealth. I got carried away there. That premise is probably unknowable because you could not do a double blind study.

As far as vouchers being constitutional, I have a problem with that. In my state there are several muslim charter schools that the children get vouchers for. So my tax money is going to educate future terrorists.

I also understand that in your world view there is no neutral. As is the case for many of the world religions. We do though have a secular government and based on that the best that government can do is be neutral.

This of course wasn't a problem for this country for the first 100 years because majority of Americans were some denomination of protestant.

The history of prayer and bible study in school is very interesting. The first group to attempt to get bible reading out of schools were the catholics in the 1850’s. This is because most schools were using the king james version of the bible. They actually won their case in front of the Wisconsin supreme court and bible reading banned in 1890 in that state. However, in most states they were not successful and in Philadelphia there was actual violence against catholics for their perceived attempt to stop the bible readings. This is one of the reasons that there are so many private catholic schools.

Fast forward to today were we are a much more diverse religious nation. Protestants now make up only 51% of the religious in this country. (CIA World factbook) So even though some people may see neutrality as an impossibility I believe the majority of Americans would support it.

Also remember that our constitution allows us to violate 7 of the 10 commandments.

41 posted on 02/14/2011 2:50:40 PM PST by armordog99
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To: wintertime

“So?...It is Ok then for government to FORCE children to think godlessly?”

Crumbs, you are some ……!!!!

I was never forced to thinking godless.

I never confused the facts I learned in school, which included college and an MBA, as being godless. In fact, my studies expanded me intellectually in all directions. It was a wonderful period in my life.

You have a serious problem in la cabeza.


42 posted on 02/14/2011 2:52:22 PM PST by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
That is why there is Sunday School and one’s family at home.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What's next? Catacombs?

Will those citizens with the godless worldview next be saying, “ That is why there are catacombs?”

Do you see?

By attending government school, children learn to compartmentalize their faith into public and private spheres. Your statement above is a perfect example of this! This is in absolute contradiction to Christian belief. The government is forcing children to adopt a worldview and behavior that DIS-establishes their family's religion and ESTABLISHES the government religion of godless secular humanism.

43 posted on 02/14/2011 2:57:08 PM PST by wintertime
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To: GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
Yes, you were taught to think godlessly. ALL children who attend godless government schools are taught to think and reason godlessly, and taxpayers are forced to pay for it.

I believe it is like being a fish. If I were to tell a fish that it was swimming in water, the fish would likely get mad at me.

As I pointed out, it is sometimes very hard for those who defend godless government schools to see and understand that these schools are indeed NOT religiously neutral. They **do** teach the children to think godlessly. They have never been neutral and never can be religiously neutral. NO school is.

There is a **HUGE** difference ( content and consequences) between a godless curriculum and one that is God-centered. I know. I attended Catholic schools 1 though 10th grade, and godless government schools between 10 and 12th grade. I graduated in 1964.

44 posted on 02/14/2011 3:05:00 PM PST by wintertime
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To: jda

Worth re-posting:

For those who don’t know:
- The words “separation of church and state” do not appear in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

- The 1st Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” {emphasis added}

- It wasn’t until the early 1960’s that prayer in public school was “outlawed” by a new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

- The history of the U.S. includes prayer and Bible readings in all sorts of public places, including schools and Congress.

- In 1782, the United States Congress passed the following resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

William Holmes McGuffey, the author of the McGuffey Reader (used ofr over 100 years in U.S. public schools), declared: “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.”

- Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636.

- In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, (John 17:3); and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3).”

{Excerpts from AllAboutPopularIssues.org}

According to the majority of comments on this thread, our country was wrong for the first 170 or so years. As you accurately note, prayer was part of our public school system up until 1960. What has been the fate of the country sincd then? Increased drug use, STD’s, divorce, and crime. Perhaps there is a correlation...

Also, historically speaking the freedom of religion spoken of in the first ammendment was whatever form of Christianity one preferred. The separation of church and state originates from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Convention who feared a state run religion would be implemented much like the church of England. They wanted to be assured they would not be forced by the state to practice any certain form of Christianity. Jefferson assured them they would be able to practice their brand of Christianity without state intervention. That letter has been twisted 180 degrees to prevent public displays of Christianity. It was never Jefferson’s intent.


45 posted on 02/14/2011 3:12:34 PM PST by kailbo
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To: armordog99
In my state there are several muslim charter schools that the children get vouchers for. So my tax money is going to educate future terrorists.

And...Before there were charters there were well-funded private Muslim schools doing the same.

This is an immigration problem. All immigration from Muslim countries should be stopped immediately. All students from Muslim countries should be required to leave immediately upon the completion of their undergraduate or graduate school educations.

Also...The **BEST** defense against Islam is to have a population of citizens well grounded in their Judeo Christian faith and our nation's founding principles...Neither of which they will ever get in a godless government and socialist school.

I also understand that in your world view there is no neutral.

What is this drivel? Did you learn this "reality is an individual construct" in a liberal/Marxist and godless government classroom?

FACT: All sentient beings have a non-neutral religious worldview. ALL schools have a religiously non-neutral worldview. They either teach from a godless perspective or one that is God-centered.

This of course wasn't a problem for this country for the first 100 years because majority of Americans were some denomination of protestant.

Then you didn't learn much about the history of government schooling in your godless government school.

In Philadelphia and other large cities their were riots with DEATHS over forced government schooling. In some parts of New England children were frog marched by armed police ( and very much against their parent's wishes) to their government assigned, prison-like government schools.

So even though some people may see neutrality as an impossibility I believe the majority of Americans would support it.

Did you learn to be comfortable with the voting mob violating the First Amendment and freedom of conscience in you godless government school? ( Just wondering.)

Also remember that our constitution allows us to violate 7 of the 10 commandments.

The Constitution does not allow the violation of the CONSTITUTION. The last I checked the Constitution is silent on the Ten Commandments ( all of them).

46 posted on 02/14/2011 3:23:48 PM PST by wintertime
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To: kailbo
You are correct that the words separation of church and state do not appear in the Constitution. Also the words right to privacy do not appear either. But both are short hand for the meanings behind the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th amendments.

When the founders were writing the constitution the majority of them were familiar with the Virginia bill for establishing religious freedom. Thomas Jefferson wrote this about that law;

[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom ... was finally passed, ... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.” The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.
— Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, 1821

The founding fathers could have easily put in the christian religion in the first amendment, but they didn't. In fact they specifically stated that there would be no religious test for public office. The first time ever in the history of man that a government did not have an official religion.

Now was this always strictly applied? No. When 90% or better of a country are a specific sect it is easy for them to dominate.

Here is a quote from John Adams about the founding of this country;

The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
— John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88),

The protestant majority in this country who had control of the courts and legal system used it for almost 150 years to make sure their religious views were supported by the government. It is funny to read these views now and see the blatant anti-catholic bias in them.

The public schools were started in America by the states and in New York and others they were there for poor children who's parents could not send them to a private school. If you got rid of public schools tomorrow you would see the same thing. Many kids would never see the inside of a school.

47 posted on 02/14/2011 3:41:28 PM PST by armordog99
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To: armordog99
If you got rid of public schools tomorrow...

Who is calling for closing the godless socialist schools tomorrow? Very few. Most are calling for vouchers, tax credits, and charters to build the infrastructure. Eventually, complete separation of school and state would be ideal.

But..Ok..What would happen if godless government schools closed tomorrow?

Answer: The **SAME** children who are getting and education today would get one tomorrow. Why?

Why? Because little learning happens in the government classroom. Nearly all the learning is due to the child and parents' efforts IN THE HOME! Government schools are basically sending home a curriculum for the parents and child to follow IN THE HOME!

Please ask parents of academically successful children what their home habits are. Compare the home habits, study time, and study practices of successful homeschoolers and successful institutionalized children. You will soon find that there is little to NO difference between the home habits of successful homeschoolers and institutionalized children. Both spend about the same amount of time in formal home study, both have parents that value education, both share similar extracurricular activities..etc.

Conclusion: ALL academically successful children are either afterschooled or homeschooled. There may be exceptions out there but I have never met one.

Many kids would never see the inside of a school.

There are plenty of godless government schools in this nation that are, indeed, so violent, so dysfunctional, so abusive that it LITERALLY would be better for the child to NEVER attend. Illiteracy and innumeracy can be fixed. Dead or permanently injured (physically, sexually, and emotional) most often can not be fixed.

48 posted on 02/14/2011 4:00:20 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime
1. I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt. You shall have no other gods before me.

The U.S. Constitution does not mention God, Creator, Jesus, or Christianity anywhere. Nor does Constitutional law require U.S. citizens to worship a God. Nor does it prevent anyone from worshiping other gods or no god at all.

2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:

This commandment, to never take the name of God in vain, appears nowhere in the Constitution. We citizens can swear and curse any god, in any way we wish.

3. Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you

Not only can American citizens not keep the Sabbath, but we can ignore it entirely without out violating the Constitution.

4. Honor your father and mother...

Sorry, but the Constitution does not require anyone to honor fathers and mothers. We can even despise and hate our parents all we want, without violating Constitutional law.

5. You shall not kill (murder).

At first this may seem Constitutional but it cannot possibly agree with it for the very reason that the Constitution allows the declaration of war.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

The Constitution says nothing about adultery. A man or woman can have sex with as many married people as they like without violating the Constitution.

7. You shall not steal.

Although states have laws against stealing that remain consistent with the Constitution, the Federal government, by using “eminent domain,” can rob and steal from its citizens all it wants (taking private property for “public use,” for example), without violating the Constitution. Close but no cigar.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Although one cannot lie in a court of law, while under oath, it says nothing about lying outside the court unless it constitutes slander. American citizens and sitting Presidents lie all the time without violating the Constitution. Moreover the Constitution specifically allows spying and countersurveillance, which guarantees lying to others. Close in some narrow cases, but not at all in most.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife...”

The U.S. Constitution says nothing against not coveting wives. You can desire your neighbor's wife all you want.

10. You shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.

The Constitution does not prevent you from desiring anything in, on, or around your neighbor's house, or any other house or thing for that matter.

49 posted on 02/14/2011 4:09:01 PM PST by armordog99
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To: napscoordinator
Just wondering. How can people work in an office and home-school their children? Do they work the 2nd or 3rd shift?

Anyway, parents should make the decision.

50 posted on 02/14/2011 8:30:41 PM PST by IIntense
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