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Sola Fide; Do Calvinists Actually Read the Christian Bible?
Self | 27 Feb 2011 | Natural Law

Posted on 02/27/2011 8:08:19 PM PST by Natural Law

Faith Without Works? Do Calvinists Actually Read the Christian Bible? Is anyone as mystified as I am at this contradictory and unbiblical Calvinist “Sola Fide” idea that faith without works is sufficient for salvation? How can Calvinists reject James Chapter 2 which states that; “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14) and "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). To do so is antithetical to Scripture.

The Calvinist rejection of James is at best substitutional, permitting Calvinists to conclude that works naturally follow from and are only a result of true faith thus requiring no conscious commitment or consideration. The result is a negation of the call to Beatitude and a rejection of the obligations of the Second Greatest Commandment issued by Jesus Himself.

Borrowing from Hinduism many fringe Calvinists actually practice a form of the Brahiminst caste system in which they profess that their own Salvation was secure from the beginning of time and no obligation exists toward the less fortunate and needy because God rejected their election from the beginning of time.

The substitution of actual, contextual Scripture for the more flattering personal interpretations is a return to the Gnostic heresies that the Church successfully rejected more than a thousand years earlier. They attempt to seek truth through Scripture on their own despite the admonition of Peter who stated; “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).

Faith alone is insufficient. Adam and Eve had faith yet fell. They spoke directly with God yet succumbed to sin. What about Paul, whom many Calvinists give greater credence than Jesus, when he says; "And if I should have prophesy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13: 2).

Perhaps the citations some will more closely identify with; the demons whom Jesus expelled.

"And behold they [the demons] cried out saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matt 8: 29).

The demons had faith certainly equal to that of the Calvinists. Not only do they profess that Jesus is the Son of God, but they also have a profound knowledge of Scripture and profess belief in the final judgment. Peter didn’t profess that Christ is the Son of God in Matthew 16:16-- eight chapters later. Why didn’t Jesus didn't make the demons the rock on which He built His Church? He required Works to build His Church.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvinism; catholic; hatred; intolerance; misrepresentation; protestant; religion; religiousintolerance; vanity
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1 posted on 02/27/2011 8:08:22 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

no. They read Calvin.


2 posted on 02/27/2011 8:15:30 PM PST by madison10
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To: Natural Law

Why can’t people understand that true faith and belief will cause someone to act. It’s not the act that saves but the act proves that one has faith.


3 posted on 02/27/2011 8:17:50 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Natural Law

The Christian church is built upon the fundamental truth that Peter confessed, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” This is The Rock.


4 posted on 02/27/2011 8:21:21 PM PST by Elsiejay (.)
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To: Natural Law

Time for another cage match!


5 posted on 02/27/2011 8:22:22 PM PST by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: Natural Law

I’m not a Calvinist, but I think the idea is that a Christian does good works because he has faith and is already saved and would therefore want to do them, and is not doing good works to earn the approval of God in order to merit salvation.


6 posted on 02/27/2011 8:22:53 PM PST by Truthsearcher
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To: Natural Law
Do you think this is going to gain you any converts to Catholicism?

It just shows your intolerance and hatred towards other Christian religions, that is not exactly an endearing trait that would want any Protestant to be even interested in such hateful religion, as Catholicism, if you are its representative.

Not to mention that you are deliberately misrepresenting Calvinism.

Thank God for Luther and Calvin, who reformed the Catholic religion, so it's not the only option for Christians.

7 posted on 02/27/2011 8:30:06 PM PST by Innovative (Weakness is provocative.)
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To: CynicalBear
Why can’t people understand that true faith and belief will cause someone to act. It’s not the act that saves but the act proves that one has faith.

I was trying to think of a way to put it and you pretty much got it. I had a conversation with a friend the other day about this. She was asking if anyone moved a mountain or walked on water with just faith. My answer is, yes, every single day. People of industrious nature transform mountains through industry and build enterprise that crosses across waters. Faith isn't just a magic word or two you say, nor is it a Peter Pan wish; if you really wish hard enough.... Faith is the will to act and the belief through action you can and you do. Works are the result of faith and faith is evidence through works. Without action, faith is just an empty word that accomplishes nothing.

8 posted on 02/27/2011 8:30:52 PM PST by mnehring
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To: Natural Law

this is hit and run because it is late:

Saved by grace through faith, so that no man can boast that his works saved him. Man is incapable of being saved on the basis of his works, but the works are evidence of the salvation. We still sin and need forgiveness even after we are saved.

What works did the thief on the cross have? His faith and belief in Christ gained him salvation.


9 posted on 02/27/2011 8:33:05 PM PST by RatRipper (I'll ride a turtle to work every day before I buy anything from Government Motors.)
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To: Natural Law
If you cannot distinguish between faith in action, and works of the flesh, then the entire bible becomes a nonsensical collection of contradictions... or in other words... "foolishness";

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
10 posted on 02/27/2011 8:34:28 PM PST by Safrguns
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To: Natural Law

I’m afraid that Martin Luther declared that James was “an Epistle of Straw,” and threw it out of his version of the Bible, precisely because James so clearly disagreed with his views.


11 posted on 02/27/2011 8:36:25 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Natural Law
On the otherhand: what is it about "Work your way to heaven".. that is missed by some?..
You know... forcing "God" to be humble recognizing pitiful gambits as "work" requiring payment.. or benefits..
12 posted on 02/27/2011 8:36:53 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: mnehring
>> Without action, faith is just an empty word that accomplishes nothing.<<

No, it’s not empty. Look at what I said again. True faith causes one to act. We are saved by God’s grace through faith in Him. If, in fact, that faith is true there will be action. So faith really isn’t an empty word. The acts or lack of them will only show whether that faith was in fact true faith. People might say they have faith but if there are no actions it is evident they really didn’t have true faith.

13 posted on 02/27/2011 8:41:13 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Natural Law

How many works, exactly, is enough to save you?

Is it faith plus works that saves, or are works merely the outward manifestation of the faith?


14 posted on 02/27/2011 8:41:46 PM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Innovative
"Do you think this is going to gain you any converts to Catholicism?"

That is not my objective.

15 posted on 02/27/2011 8:41:49 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

So what IS your objective with this hateful post against a protestant religion?

Do you think other Catholics will applaud you?

You are just demonstrating your hatred and intolerance.


16 posted on 02/27/2011 8:47:18 PM PST by Innovative (Weakness is provocative.)
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To: Innovative
"You are just demonstrating your hatred and intolerance."

Actually, I am responding to it. One need only spend a little time in the Religion Forum to experience the menopausal shrieks against "Rome" and the damning criticism of every Catholic doctrine before one begins to question the underlying beliefs and motives of the anti-Catholics. Please convince me that they are the exception and do not represent the bulk of Calvinist Protestantism.

17 posted on 02/27/2011 8:51:27 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: RobRoy
Let's let the Bible answer that:

James 2: 17-26

17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


18 posted on 02/27/2011 8:58:02 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Innovative

Pot — kettle — black

How many hateful posts are posted by Protestants about Catholicism.

Ask your Protestant brothers and sisters for the answer to that question.


19 posted on 02/27/2011 8:59:30 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Natural Law
Perhaps the citations some will more closely identify with; the demons whom Jesus expelled.

"And behold they [the demons] cried out saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matt 8: 29).

The demons had faith certainly equal to that of the Calvinists. Not only do they profess that Jesus is the Son of God, but they also have a profound knowledge of Scripture and profess belief in the final judgment. Peter didn’t profess that Christ is the Son of God in Matthew 16:16-- eight chapters later. Why didn’t Jesus didn't make the demons the rock on which He built His Church? He required Works to build His Church.

Nonsense straw man I see from time-to-time. First of all, of course demons believe Jesus exists, duh, they were there, remember? They're demons not stupid. They have no need for faith because they see what exists in their dimension. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Secondly, Jesus did not come into the world to die for demons, they are doomed with no chance to escape their end. They already made their choice. Jesus came for mankind and he died for mankind.

Thirdly, Calvinists, like most other Christians, rely on faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ to be saved. The false idea that they have an elite "Brahmin" caste system is so inane that it hardly deserves an answer. There is something called foreknowledge. God is outside of time, therefore he has already seen the end scene and, as he is omnipotent and omniscient, it is logical that whatever he permits he allows for his own purposes. He can do that, you know, he's God.

Finally, I'm not Calvinist, but I can tell a hit job when I see it.

20 posted on 02/27/2011 9:02:23 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Natural Law

Actually - they read James IN CONTEXT. It isn’t works that brings salvation - God’s Word elsewhere clearly points that out:

Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Salvation is not, and cannot be of our own works. If salvation were the result, even in part, to any work we can do - we would be able to boast (brag). It would take away from God’ and the Glory HE alone deserves for calling us to Him, and for ultimately giving us the gift of faith to accept salvation. If I pay anything for a “gift”, then it is no longer a gift. But what are we doing with that gift? If nothing, then did we every really receive it?

But if you continue in that passage from Ephesians as I posted) - we were created (and called to salvation) in order to do good works. WE do them out of faith and because of our faith, not to win God’s favor, and again - not to “earn” our salvation.

Read in context and in line with the rest of scripture (scripture interprets scripture, and cannot conflict or contradict itself - which an interpretation of James as saying we are saved by works would be): James is comparing “types” of faith. Real saving faith, and a faith that doesn’t go beyond “head knowledge”. (James 2:19 shows this - devils “believe” and tremble... they believe / they know and don’t deny God exists - but they are not “saved” because they don’t have “saving” faith.

But back to the passage in question... Saving faith, by its nature and purpose ordained by God, produces good works (productive vine, as Jesus called in). The unproductive vine risks being “cut off” - taken out of this world.

Further - Jesus said that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments, and do the will of the Father. That is what we were created for, called out, and saved to accomplish. And we do his will out of love and obedience, because he saved us.

I once heard it put this way - and it is so simple: Genuine, SAVING faith is “belief that makes you move”.


21 posted on 02/27/2011 9:02:28 PM PST by TheBattman (They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature...)
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To: RobRoy
How many works, exactly, is enough to save you? Is it faith plus works that saves, or are works merely the outward manifestation of the faith?

Excellent question. Good works can never pay the penalty for sin and sin is what separates us from God.

The wages of sin is DEATH. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23)

22 posted on 02/27/2011 9:08:09 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Salvation

Yeah, I’m quite familiar with James. It confirms what I was saying. Actually, the very verses you use do.


23 posted on 02/27/2011 9:08:27 PM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Natural Law; Innovative

So, it’s a revenge thread? Classy. /sarc


24 posted on 02/27/2011 9:11:20 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Salvation

But here’s the rub. What is meant by “works”? Certainly not Tithing. That is a Jewish thing. Not going to church. It takes no faith to go to church regularly. Not giving to the poor since many people give to the poor for very selfish reasons. And none of the above necessarily has anything whatsoever to do with faith, yet faith and works are joined at the hip.

Look at the examples in James: Almost killing your son. A prostitute risking her life to help spies. How many Christians do you know that take REAL risks in the name of faith?

I am amazed how often people talk of works without really explaining what works they are talking about.


25 posted on 02/27/2011 9:13:08 PM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Salvation

>>Let’s let the Bible answer that:<<

So, if I use the scripture you quoted, it looks like you are going with “one”, since the examples given there are one per saint.


26 posted on 02/27/2011 9:14:55 PM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: boatbums
So, it’s a revenge thread? Classy.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!

27 posted on 02/27/2011 9:23:14 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Innovative

“It just shows your intolerance and hatred towards other Christian religions...”

That’s a whiny way to argue the point. As a Calvinist, I don’t see intolerance and hatred in his post, but ignorance of the Calvinist position. There is no problem or disagreement with James. James is explaining what saving faith looks like - true faith produces good works.

Here is the Catholic position from Trent: If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified are in such a way the gift of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works . . . does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema. (1)

Good works do not mean one merits eternal life.

(1) Norman L. Geisler and Ralph E. MacKenzie, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals : Agreements and Differences (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books, 1995), 227.


28 posted on 02/27/2011 9:31:46 PM PST by Gil4 (Sometimes it's not low self-esteem - it's just accurate self-assessment.)
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To: Natural Law

Sounds like a Mormon writing.

There are three books which provide us with a soteriology, a doctrine of salvation. They are John, Romans and Galatians. Each of them clearly states faith alone without works(see Rom. 11:6, for example).

These three books set up the way of salvation for the unbeliever. James, then, is speaking to people already saved, urging his readers to prove that they do actually have faith by demonstrating it with works.

Try to add James to a plan of soteriology, and you commit the Galatian error.


29 posted on 02/27/2011 9:35:51 PM PST by lurk
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To: Cicero

I thought we were talking about Calvin, not Luther.


30 posted on 02/27/2011 9:35:57 PM PST by Gil4 (Sometimes it's not low self-esteem - it's just accurate self-assessment.)
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To: Natural Law

Hey, Natural. Even Martin Luther characterized James as an “epistle of straw”. If that doesn’t convince you try John 6:29.


31 posted on 02/27/2011 9:39:50 PM PST by pankot
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To: Natural Law

The US was founded by people who were the great losers of the 30 years wars in Europe 1619-1649 between the catholic and protestant kings of Europe.

America at the time of the revolution was mostly Calvinist. the Scottish Presbyterians were Calvinist as were the English puritans, the dutch German and Swedish reformed churches were all Calvinist as were the french hugonauts.

baptist and Methodists became the majority by the 1840’s but at the time of the revolution they were still a minority. The English Anglicans as today take on the image of the majority. at the time of the revolution in the USA that was the Calvinists.

Catholics did not arrive in numbers in the USA until the Irish potato famine of 1845.

George III called the American revolution the Presbyterian parson’s war. The founding documents of the USA were written mostly by Calvinists. The officer corp of the US revolutionary army were mostly Calvinists. (at the battle of Yorktown most of the officers of American army were Presbyterian elders.)

The wars of the 16th century were essentially property wars. They were mostly fought in Germany where catholic properties had been confiscated by German princes. (The disuputes in the episcopal church today over church property caused by the church embrace of homosexual pastors—is a pale echo of the force that caused the fires of the 18th century wars.) 2/3 rds of the population of Germany were killed during those wars. It was a time in Germany similar to that of 1914-1945)

Those wars didn’t just defeat the Calvinists in Europe. They also embarrassed the catholic church so profoundly that papal power went into permanent decline.

The enlightenment came as a reaction to the religious wars of the 17th century. The enlightenment was basically about the elevation of state power.

In the centuries since state power has steadily advanced in Europe and America until the actual christian community including both Catholics and protestants in Europe is quite small. The protestant churches in Europe especially have been eviscerated. The reason for this is that beginning in the revolutions in 1848—they embraced the arian heresy.

In the USA the mainline protestant churches also embraced the arian heresy. However, the broad evangelical churches in America did not. This is why Christianity remains a force (but still a declining force)in the USA today but not in Europe.

I am not familiar with internal catholic theological disputes but I would wager a bet that the reason for the catholic church being so medieval in Mexico and other parts of Latin America is because sections of the catholic church have embraced the arian heresy.

At the time of the moslem expansion in the 8th century north Africa, Asia minor and much of the middle east were christian. however, they were arian. they immediately folded when confronted with the moslem armies.

Spain was sold out by arian bishops there who let in the moors to do their fighting.

It looks like much the same process is at work today.

Get a grip guys. There are better fish to fry than sola fide


32 posted on 02/27/2011 9:42:43 PM PST by ckilmer (Phi)
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To: Natural Law

You are just demonstrating your hatred and intolerance.//
Actually, I am responding to it. One need only spend a little time in the Religion Forum to experience the menopausal shrieks against “Rome”...

The proper action would be to respond in the existing thread rather than add this silly little straw man vanity post. And really, until Rome renounces the “anathemas” from Trent, you can cry me a river about the so-called “menopausal shrieks.” I doubt any of them are worse than the OFFICIAL POSITION of your church.


33 posted on 02/27/2011 9:48:41 PM PST by Gil4 (Sometimes it's not low self-esteem - it's just accurate self-assessment.)
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To: ckilmer
french hugonauts.

It's admittedly tough to spell. I've only mastered it because I have a little 17th century Huguenot ancestry out of Virginia, surname Faure.

Yours is an excellent historical summary, one of the better ones I've seen on the topic on FR of late, but "Hugonauts" sounds as if Chavez down in Venezuela's started a space program, lol.

34 posted on 02/27/2011 9:49:40 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Natural Law
This has been hashed and rehashed over and over again. You should try reading the Bible in CONTEXT sometime. Nevertheless here's a refresher course:

#1 -James is dealing with people who profess to be Christians, and yet they don't evidence the reality of their faith by their works [deeds]. He's not talking to non-Christians. Over, and over again... people will say they have faith and they don't have works, and James is saying that real faith always produces works.

Paul clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works (Rom. 1:17; Romans 3:28). ...James declares, 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works' (2:21). ...James and Paul would be contradictory if they were speaking about the same thing, but there are many indications in the text that they are not. Paul is speaking about justification before God, while James is talking about justification before humans.

This is indicated by the fact that James stressed that we should 'show' (2:18) our faith. It must be something that can be seen by others in 'works' (2:18-20). You see God doesn't need to be 'shown' anything. He already knows everything about us even to the thoughts and intentions of our hearts. But human beings need to be shown.

Further, James acknowledged that Abraham was justified before God by faith, not works, when he said, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousnes' (James 2:23). When he adds that Abraham was 'justified by works' (v. 21), he is speaking of what Abraham did that could be seen by people, namely offer his son Isaac on the altar (vs. 21-22).

...Paul is stressing the root of justification (faith); James is stressing the fruit of justification (works). ...works as the proof of faith.

#2 - The Bible contradicts the RC interpretation many times over. Or have you not read Titus 3:5 which says, Not by works of righteousness [deeds].....but according to HIS mercy he saved us.." You cannot add anything to God's mercy. When you do you rob Him of His glory and power.

Galatians 2:16 which says, "....for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Galatians 2:21 which says, "....for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Ephesians 2:8 which says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves...."

Romans 1:17 which says, "...The just shall live by faith."

Romans 3:20 which says, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:...

Romans 3:28 which says, "... man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Romans 3:10 - "There is NONE righteous...."

And finally the verse you forgot in your James treatise that its faith + works mantra which is James 2:10 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

#3 - If you want to use the James passage to prove faith plus works, then you'd better understand you have to be 100% perfect. You can't fail or sin even ONE TIME throughout your ENTIRE LIFE. Reading the words of Christ back in Matthew that even includes your thought life - Jesus said if you've ever had even a lustful thought you've committed adultery, or if you've ever gotten angry with someone you've already murdered Him as far as God is concerned. Good luck with the 100% perfection requirement in James 2:10.

I'd go so far as to suggest that with this 'hit and run post' you've put up late at night filled with hate and vitriol towards protestants that you've already screwed the pooch in achieving God's requirement of 100% perfection. I don't care how many sacraments and works you do from here on out. It doesn't matter anymore.

35 posted on 02/27/2011 10:06:54 PM PST by conservativegramma
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To: Natural Law

You catholics are simply intolerant to Grace Saints whom are saved by God’s WORD and the faith OF Christ Jesus in heaven, not in the flesh anymore, and whom are CALLED before the foundation of the world. It is clearly apparent, this intolerance, since you all so freely level “heritic” labels upon true Bible Saints. The same way the Pharisees and Sadducees accused Jesus as having a demon, so you also likewise accuse Saints, thus persecuting both Christ and true Saints-Believers. You do NOT demonstrate “christian” love nor charity: but only the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Matthew 16:12. If you had the true Christ, you would not act like them in Matthew 16:12.


36 posted on 02/27/2011 10:12:33 PM PST by bibletruth
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To: Natural Law

Great post. Thank you.


37 posted on 02/27/2011 10:23:44 PM PST by ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton (Go Egypt on 0bama)
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To: Natural Law

Faith is the work of the Father.

Joh 6:28-29
(28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Mat 13:23
(23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mat 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

A smidgen more faith than no faith whatsoever is adequate for saving faith.

Rom 4:3-8
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
(8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Gal 2:16
(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


38 posted on 02/27/2011 10:26:49 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RobRoy

We could take this line of reasoning further and still miss the gospel.

One can qualify faith as being inadequate if it lacks works,..then one could qualify works if they are not Divinely guided works,..even many good works are classified as fruit of iniquity in Matt 7:21-23.

The only work God recognizes for righteousness is Christ’s work on the Cross, in payment for all sin.

Our faith is the same as His, which then is counted for righteousness.

Rom 3:21-24
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


39 posted on 02/27/2011 10:39:30 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: pankot

We responded with the same thought, independently of one another, except perhaps that we also are members of the same body.

Indicative of a work of the Father through the Holy Spirit. GB.

The thought was to discern the work of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It’s an interesting and maturing study.


40 posted on 02/27/2011 10:45:58 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

So, it all boils down to John 3:16?

;)


41 posted on 02/27/2011 10:47:06 PM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: CynicalBear
Why can’t people understand that true faith and belief will cause someone to act. It’s not the act that saves but the act proves that one has faith.

Actually, the act proves nothing because those acts are also performed by the non-elect.

42 posted on 02/27/2011 10:48:35 PM PST by Rippin
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To: RobRoy

The actual and real gospel today for the Church of Grace believes is 1 Cor. 15:3-5. Because the gospel message 1 Cor. 15:3-5 CONTAINS is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. John 3:16 does not contain the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ [Messiah]. John 3:16 is primarily for the Jewish believers in the four Gospels; but of course, Catholics are unable to advance beyond the four Gospels, hence, acting just like the Pharisees and Saducees in Matthew 16:12.


43 posted on 02/27/2011 10:57:35 PM PST by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

I like to tell friends that there were no Christians in the crowds Jesus addressed. At least, none in the sense that one is a Christian after his death and resurrection.


44 posted on 02/27/2011 11:38:59 PM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Natural Law
Perhaps ? if you took the time to read that whole chapter of James you will get the proper context from it, instead of leaning on someone’s interpretation.
What was James talking about Faith without works ?

Well ? if someone was truly saved, or " Born Again " those " Good deeds " would be a part, evident in their life.
Good deeds are not what get's you saved or " Born Again " or bring you to GOD, but, Good deeds will be the fruit in a believer's life.
Faith that is not exercising ( working, motion, put your money where your mouth is ) is dead, phony, fake.
James said ? in effect ? he was saying, asking ? to the effect " So ? you call yourself a Christian ? but, yet ? you see a brother ( remember the Golden Rule ? ) or sister who is poor and in hunger, you tell them, have a good day, GOD will bless, but ? you don't feed them ? then ? you are a phony. "

James was saying, if you say your a Christian ? don't be just a hearer of the word, but, be a doer of the word, don't be a fake , phony religious Christian.

Isaiah had somethings to say about those who appear " Godly " on the outside, but, phony on the inside.

Isaiah 58


1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
2 For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’

“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD?

6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
11 The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail.
12 Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins
and will raise up the age-old foundations;
you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls,
Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.

13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.


Just a note ? the writer of the book of Hebrews said ( read chapter 6 for yourself ) that " Repentance " is repentance from " ( Dead Works ) " .... yes, for one tho truly come to God and be saved is repenting from dead works.

If you have bothered to read the whole book of James in " Context " perhaps you won't be able to fool people because they will be reading the fine print ( full context ).

James was talking about Christians who were not sincere, true " Christians " , fake, phony Christians who have no love for their Christian brother or sister.
If you say your a Christian and refuse to feed your hungry Christian brother or sister ? then ? your faith is dead ! your a fake phony christian, that's what James was trying to say.... read it, it's in there in that chapter of James.
45 posted on 02/27/2011 11:46:35 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: mnehring
" "" I was trying to think of a way to put it and you pretty much got it. I had a conversation with a friend the other day about this. She was asking if anyone moved a mountain or walked on water with just faith. My answer is, yes, every single day. People of industrious nature transform mountains through industry and build enterprise that crosses across waters. Faith isn't just a magic word or two you say, nor is it a Peter Pan wish; if you really wish hard enough.... Faith is the will to act and the belief through action you can and you do. Works are the result of faith and faith is evidence through works. Without action, faith is just an empty word that accomplishes nothing. ""

Bingo !

You pretty well nailed it with that.

It's amazing how the works folks love to quote James, but, disregard that there is more abundant scriptures that show more evidence towards that we are saved by grace through faith.
We might as well called them " Jamesmites " Jamesmillians ?

Another aspect of what James was saying is ( in our words today, or term " Put your money where your mouth is " .
It's amazing these people who love to quote " Faith without works is dead " but ? choose to ignore what James is saying in the whole chapter ? isn't it ?

46 posted on 02/27/2011 11:52:16 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: Safrguns
" If you cannot distinguish between faith in action, and works of the flesh, then the entire bible becomes a nonsensical collection of contradictions "

That's because ? the preaching of the Cross of Jesus Christ ( saved by Grace, saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, and not by works ) is " foolishness " to those who are perishing.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
47 posted on 02/27/2011 11:56:49 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: Natural Law
How many " Laws " of God do " you " think that someone can be saved ?

Do you now know ? that those who live by the law ? shall keep " ALL " the law ? do you know that ? right ?
And ? if you break just one jot or tittle of the law, your are guilty of breaking " ALL " the law ? you are aware of that, right ?
So ? have you keep " ALL " the law since you were born ?
At what point of keeping the law do you think you are saved in your own eyes, opps, I mean, in God's eyes ?

What the Mosaic law that requires that anyone who touches a dead thing, or body must stay outside the camp a certain amount of time until the priest declares you clean to come back into the camp, or, in your case, your house and church.
Do you keep that law of God when you remove any mice or rats from your house ?
How about the Mosaic Law that says, that you can not touch anyone who has any kind of discharge from their body ?
Are you a woman ? if you are on your monthly cycle, you have to go outside the camp of Israel until you are declared clean, and if your a husband of a woman who is on their monthly cycle, you can not touch your wife until she is declared clean by the priest.
If your a doctor or nurse, you can not perform your job because you can not touch a person who has any kind of body discharge.
Yes, let's talk about living by the " LAW " if you guy's are so dogmatic of living by the law of God.

Yes, where is your sacrifice animals to bring to God as a sacrifice ? how about your priest of your church ? does he bring a yearly sacrifice for all the sins of all the people in the church for the year ? , yes, let's talk about living by the law of GOD.
I am sure you have not kept " ALL " of GOD's law.

How about Israel ?
Where are their yearly sacrifice for sin every year ?
That stopped when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.( read up on your history )

Where is your atonement for your sin ? since you don't trust and believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ ?
If you trust in your " Own works to save you " then ? you are still in your sins because the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ can not help you, since you trust in your own works, and living by the law,,,, there must be a atonement for sin, and Jesus Christ provided us with that.
48 posted on 02/28/2011 12:10:52 AM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: Natural Law

I am a Messianic Jew.. not a Cavinist.


49 posted on 02/28/2011 12:12:12 AM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: Natural Law
Since you " Really " want to put a empases on the word " works " well then, this is what Jesus had to say about it.
Since Jesus Christ is God himself, then, we must listen carefully in what he has to say.

John chapter 6 verses 26-40.

26. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
27. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28. Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30. So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32. Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34. “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35. Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
36. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


Did you see that ? or bother to read it ?

The people asked Jesus what are the works , or what we " do " do to do what GOD requires, not what man requires, or what man " thinks " what God requires, but, right here you hear it right from GOD's very own mouth ( Jesus's mouth )...

( *** 28. Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”


( **** 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” **** ) .... what must we do ? we must believe on him whom God sent for our Salvation.....


50 posted on 02/28/2011 12:40:07 AM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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