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The Feminization of the Catholic Church
Tradition In Action ^ | 2009 | Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.

Posted on 02/28/2011 5:35:55 AM PST by verdugo

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1 posted on 02/28/2011 5:35:58 AM PST by verdugo
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To: verdugo

Where are the MEN who follow God?


2 posted on 02/28/2011 5:39:35 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: verdugo

Ne Zot! Sensuous cleavage in pants!

No source link.


3 posted on 02/28/2011 5:40:24 AM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: verdugo
The largest number of sex-abuse monsters (those with multiple victims and abuse of the sacraments) entered seminary in the 1940s and 1950s. In Boston, the class of 1960 at the archdiocesan seminary was the worst.

Some sort of reform was obviously necessary.

4 posted on 02/28/2011 5:46:05 AM PST by Jim Noble (House GOP: If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.)
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To: verdugo

Once again I comment that Traditionalists should thank God for those Roman Catholic chapels and churches that never changed following Vatican II.

Satan is in these Novus Ordo ‘churches’ that look like airplane hangars. where the ‘congregants’ carry on their conversations in loud voices as they know this is not a sanctuary and that nothing important will be happening.

Where’s the confessional? Where’s the tabernacle?

The answer to both is: hidden.

The ‘priest’ is merely the president of the congregation who has abrogated most of his duties to the lay-women who dress like men.


5 posted on 02/28/2011 5:50:17 AM PST by IbJensen (Grab your pitchforks!)
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To: verdugo
WHY CATHOLIC MEN (Except for the feelings oriented types) HAVE NEVER BEEN ATTRACTED BY THE WHOLE NEW MASS "SCENE"

"In the United States today, 45 years after Vatican II, 31,000 lay persons plan liturgies, direct the music groups, schedule the lectors and run the education programs for adults, engaged couples and children; four-fifths of these ecclesial ministers are women.

Before Vatican II, most of those jobs did not exist; less than 1 % of these jobs were filled by lay people. (3) Before Vatican II the average parish lay woman were most likely to be found in the Altar Society or Holy Name Society. [Additionally]Today, almost 50 % of all administrative positions in dioceses are held by women. Before Vatican Council II, Catholic men frequented the Sacraments, took family responsibilities seriously and filled the seminaries. After Vatican Council II, the churches emptied, the divorce rate skyrocketed, and the sacristy was overrun with women. A kind of effeminate man attracted by the New Theology entered the seminaries, and the virile ethos of the Church grew fainter and fainter. It is no wonder not only men, but also many women, are leaving the Catholic Church today or no longer assist at Sunday Mass."

6 posted on 02/28/2011 5:53:06 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: IbJensen

I refuse to go to my in-laws Catholic events (Confirmation, etc.) because of the horribly sloppy, wrong-headed Masses that are offered up. Men and women handing in shorts handing out the Host, little girls pretending to be altar boys - sickening! I just sit home with my husband and mail in the check, lol.


7 posted on 02/28/2011 5:57:16 AM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: Jim Noble

Your “reform” then was to bring in effeminitized clergy, and women, and chase away the real men?


8 posted on 02/28/2011 5:58:24 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo

Isaiah 3:12-13 As for my people, children are there oppressors, and women shall rule over them, O my people, they which lead thee to err, and to destroy the way of they paths. The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.


9 posted on 02/28/2011 5:59:23 AM PST by bibletruth
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To: verdugo

There is a very interesting book that has been around for a while called The Feminization of American Culture by Ann Douglas. Professor Douglas brings up some very insightful points about how religion became subjected to feminization in the more affluent era of the mid to late 19th century. Whereas the more visceral Calvinism informed the Protestantism of an earlier era in America, the more passive and feminine Unitarianism favored by the rising class of intellectuals and merchants took hold of the American psyche. It is this feminization that took the masculine God who was worthy of worship and the judge of sinful people and made Him into friendly, middle class uncle. It signaled the beginning of the end for Biblical inerrancy in the main stream Protestant churches. Evidently the Roman Catholic Church has undergone a similar invasion since Vatican II.


10 posted on 02/28/2011 6:12:36 AM PST by sueuprising (The best of it is, God is with us-John Wesley)
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To: Tax-chick

If it is Marian Horvat, then it is probably posted on her website: http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m015rpFeminization.html


11 posted on 02/28/2011 6:16:44 AM PST by vladimir998 (Copts, Nazis, Franks and Beans - what a public school education puts in your head.)
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To: miss marmelstein

“Men and women handing in shorts handing out the Host, “

Handing in shorts? That would be a problem.


12 posted on 02/28/2011 6:18:56 AM PST by vladimir998 (Copts, Nazis, Franks and Beans - what a public school education puts in your head.)
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To: miss marmelstein
My uncles would only go to mass (the New Mass) for funerals and weddings. They would see everyone milling around, talking before mass, not genuflecting. They would hear milquetoast sermons about "nice stuff", given by effeminitzed feelings oriented clergy, or women lay ministers. Their time spent there was to them like being dragged to the shopping mall by the wife.

When I got married, in a traditional mass at an SSPX chapel, everything about the church looked like you were back in 1930. It was a small humble church. My uncles walked in and immediately froze! They genuflected and sat down without a word. You could hear a pin drop. THEY INSTANTLY RECOGNIZED that they were in a Holy place, and nothing had started yet. When the priest, the male altar servers, and the bride and groom, and others walked in for the wedding. they all were dressed like Catholics dressed at church in 1930's, my uncles were even more impressed. My wife was 25, that was 10 years ago.

THAT"S WHAT ATTRACTS MEN!

My uncles never forgot that wedding, and I'm certain that it was because of that ONE TIME that they saw/heard a real Catholic mass (the first since like 1958), that we were able to convert them before they died.(one died 3 seconds after receiving the REAL sacrament of Extreme Unction! Not that new fangled "healing of the sick")

13 posted on 02/28/2011 6:22:38 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo
Your “reform” then was to bring in effeminitized clergy, and women, and chase away the real men?

1) It's not MY reform. I was in protestant Sunday School at the time. My married homosexual alcoholic youth minister was very enthusiastic about V II, we studied it all the time. I'm merely a well-informed observer.

2) By "reform", I was referring to the pervasive control over the Church by powerful homosexual leaders like Spellman and O'Connell.

3) If you think V II was (among other things) a "turn towards protestantism", I think you're right. Given the enormous homosexual corruption of the pre-Vatican II American church, JXXIII had a limited menu of options to work with. I understand the opinion that he made unwise choices, you may be correct about that.

4) The judgement of the fruits of V II should be made independently of the nature of AmChurch in the 1940s and 1950s - a church run by powerful homosexual cardinals who created a system to groom and ordain the Birminghams, the Shanleys, the Geoghans who were unleashed on Catholic families before V II was even convened.

5) THAT was the reality of AmChurch in the 1950s, and presenting it as a faithful witness to the gospel and a faithful disciple of the Holy Spirit (in opposition to V II) is misguided.

14 posted on 02/28/2011 6:30:52 AM PST by Jim Noble (House GOP: If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.)
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To: Tax-chick
re:Sensuous cleavage in pants!

I know that you have been conditioned to think that what you wrote makes you look like "one of the guys", but THAT IS A BIG LIE. Learn from your mistakes and move on.

I have 5 children eight years old and younger who sometimes read my monitor when I step away. Please be carefull what you put out there for everyone in the world to see. You should never talk like that to ANYONE. It is not Catholic.

God Bless,

15 posted on 02/28/2011 6:32:29 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: SumProVita

In the Knights of Columbus. The Parish Council is the preferred assembly to “halls”. Early in our existence it was suggested by certain people on the Paris Council that we not meet in the hall. The Pastor would have none of it. We are now the most effective and visible ministry in our Parish.


16 posted on 02/28/2011 6:32:49 AM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: verdugo

The article seems to find fault with the modern Mass as a result of Vatican II.

I’m not so sure if it is Vatican II, the misinterpretted implementation of Vatican II, or an aging and shrinking number of priests to perform all of their functions.

All of the above?


17 posted on 02/28/2011 6:34:28 AM PST by kidd
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To: All

What is the basis for the thought that altar servers need to be male?

I was an altar server in the 70s. Back then, girls were not allowed. My church tried them for a little while but were quickly told not to use them.

As an altar server in the 70s, I had a lot more functions than what altar servers do today. I held the Lectionary for the priest to read. I participated in the distribution of the Host by holding a crumb catcher under people’s chin. I had many functions for Stations of the Cross and weddings.

Could it be that these functions were eliminated because of female altar servers?


18 posted on 02/28/2011 6:44:25 AM PST by kidd
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To: All
“Warning, this post has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with bigotry. All Catholic and Orthodox Catholic posters, as well as all Christians of good will, are advised to avoid such threads as they are here to generate hate, not the love of Christ.”

As Great Lent comes upon us, this is a time to reflect and pray and devote our minds, thoughts and services to God.

19 posted on 02/28/2011 6:45:06 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: verdugo

LOVE your post. You capture it so perfectly and I love your uncles, too! My father was buried from an Orthodox Catholic Church - my mother insisted. It was lovely. And so lovely to see how many people REFUSED Communion because they were in a state of sin. Not like the horrible suburban Masses where everybody crowds the aisles and altars because they don’t believe that the Host is the Body & Blood of Jesus Christ. Also, after years of horrible services, I was surprised and somewhat shocked to hear the priest say my dad was going to be marching around in Purgatory for awhile, lol! I guess we all are!


20 posted on 02/28/2011 6:46:56 AM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: Religion Moderator

Note — this thread has no links, no references. It purports to be a dissertation or something by some Phd and yet there is no way to affirm this or even to identify if we have permission to reprint this on FreeRepublic.com


21 posted on 02/28/2011 6:48:16 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: kidd
Catholic men are taught to be wimps. Jesus was a nice guy right?

It starts with a weak father figure who were too weak to truly run a household or limp-wristed schooling. Then the next generation is even weaker than the previous. It takes a massive upheaval to reverse the trend.

Go to any youth group and you'll see, as C.S. Lewis puts it, "Men Without Chests". They think people liking you is more important than people respecting you. If the men are too wussy to be men, women will fill the void. Just look at the new outpouring of female conservatives with more balls than most of the men. When women have to be the men, something is horribly wrong in your culture.
22 posted on 02/28/2011 6:49:44 AM PST by DarkSavant
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To: miss marmelstein

you’re in luck — with Pope Benedict’s impulse, the Traditionalist mass and much of tradition is coming back. Though to be honest, I don’t see the problem with altar girls..


23 posted on 02/28/2011 6:50:21 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: kidd

My husband was an altar boy in the early 60s. His main memory is being clouted on the head ‘cause he goofed up during the Mass. The priests were tough in those days.


24 posted on 02/28/2011 6:50:21 AM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: DarkSavant
Chris Christie is Catholic and he isn't a wimp.

Yes, as Catholics we are probably too nice to folks who attack the Faith, but "feminization"? Naaah.

25 posted on 02/28/2011 7:17:55 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: miss marmelstein

when I was an altarboy we had a sacristan who had been around since 1943 and he even bullied the priests who had been altar-boys themselves and remembered old Roger the sacristan telling them to follow decorum!


26 posted on 02/28/2011 7:20:23 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: miss marmelstein
The priests were tough in those days.
When I was a kid (50s), we had a parish priest who was a WWII vet and talked to us like we were his troops.
He caught one kid picking his nose and threatened, "If I see you do that again, I'll break off your arm and hit you with the bloody end of it."
They DO NOT make priests like that anymore. LOL ...
27 posted on 02/28/2011 7:21:47 AM PST by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: vladimir998; Cronos

Another Schism website.

What do you call a “Catholic” who protests Catholicism?


28 posted on 02/28/2011 7:37:04 AM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: netmilsmom; vladimir998
hmmm... a "Catholic" who protests Catholicism...

hmm....

ooooh, oooh! I get it - a Protestotismist?

29 posted on 02/28/2011 7:45:03 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: verdugo

Wow. You are really far off the target with your statements to that poster. Really, really far off.


30 posted on 02/28/2011 7:46:53 AM PST by coop71 (Being a redhead means never having to say you're sorry...)
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To: Cronos

;)


31 posted on 02/28/2011 7:54:32 AM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: Cronos; Religion Moderator

Poster of thread has history of witholding story sources/hosted links to control debate.


32 posted on 02/28/2011 8:04:59 AM PST by RBIEL2
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To: Religion Moderator; Cronos

ooops looks like situation corrected; my comment is tardy


33 posted on 02/28/2011 8:06:37 AM PST by RBIEL2
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To: sueuprising

Good insights.


34 posted on 02/28/2011 8:35:23 AM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: Jim Noble
Very good response. But I didn't see the author extolling the Amchurch of the 1940-50’s. I certainly never have extolled it, I agree with what you wrote. While there were effeminates and progressivist before Vatican II (or else there would not have existed any at VatII), what the author is saying, is that Vatican II official opened the door to the effeminates and progressivists TOTAL takeover.
35 posted on 02/28/2011 8:40:54 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: coop71

Please explain what you mean? I think you misread my posting.


36 posted on 02/28/2011 8:43:39 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo; Anoreth

This is a parody, right? (The whole article was a parody, right?)

I was quoting words from the article. If the article is suitable to be on the screen, then so is my comment.

Merciful heavens to Betsy! (Sorry, Betsy ...) I thought *I* lived in a bubble of humorless oversensitivity, but I was so wrong about that.


37 posted on 02/28/2011 8:50:44 AM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: verdugo; Tax-chick

Tax Chick is one of our wittiest posters here on Free Republic. I hope my children can gleam some from her. And it is YOUR responsibility to monitor what your children see on the computer, not TC. But you can thank her for growing their vocabulary.

Oh, and Tax Chick has you TOTALLY beat in the kids department.


38 posted on 02/28/2011 8:53:28 AM PST by mockingbyrd
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To: Tax-chick

oh snap!


39 posted on 02/28/2011 8:54:41 AM PST by mockingbyrd
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To: miss marmelstein
I refuse to go to my in-laws Catholic events (Confirmation, etc.)

I hear you. Why attend when the disgust and aversion you feel could lead to a weakening of your own faith? In fact, we are prohibited from knowingly placing our faith in jeopardy. I used to stand in the vestibule as sort of a compromise but no more. The angst from even standing 100 yards away got to be too much. And I wasn't far enough away to avoid the assaults of the more aggressive 'peace be with you' operatives.

40 posted on 02/28/2011 8:58:38 AM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: mockingbyrd; Anoreth

Don’t tell anyone, but I even have a dictionary on the bookshelf where the children can open it and see ... words.

And thanks for the kind words! When Anoreth patents the holographic sarcasm-sign projector, I’ll make sure you get one.


41 posted on 02/28/2011 9:02:01 AM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: Cronos
Though to be honest, I don’t see the problem with altar girls..

To me, simply that it makes envisioning female priests that much more palatable. For Vatican III.

42 posted on 02/28/2011 9:05:54 AM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: Jim Noble

All that criticism of the Church in the 50s and yet the liturgy was perfect.


43 posted on 02/28/2011 9:09:21 AM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: steve86
All that criticism of the Church in the 50s and yet the liturgy was perfect.

Does the phrase "Whited sepulchre" ring any bells with you?

44 posted on 02/28/2011 9:19:48 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Cronos

I am an outsider to the RC, but I like B16’s fight to drive out the rot that has infiltrated the Roman Catholic Church. Protestant or Catholic, what does this “social justice” have to do with the Gospel. Nothing, it is warmed over Gramscian Marxism. The same rot that has poison ELCA, PCUSA, ECUSA, what have you.
Has the so-called Bible translation called “The Message” been getting any circulation in the Catholic Church? I saw one verse purporting to be Matthew 5:5. My response was “gaaack!”. It’s supposed to be “modern contemporary language”, but corrupted to “social justice” drivel, trying to turn the Word of God into a feel good self help book. Made me wanna run to the old King Jimmy (maybe Duoay in your case).


45 posted on 02/28/2011 9:21:29 AM PST by Fred Hayek (All Hail the No Talent Pop Star pResident.)
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To: Fred Hayek
Has the so-called Bible translation called “The Message” been getting any circulation in the Catholic Church?

Not that I've noticed. In the US, the translation used in services and many publications is the plodding "New American Bible."

I got a copy of The Message at a Christian bookstore clearance sale. Sometimes I use it when I'm studying, for comparison with other versions.

46 posted on 02/28/2011 9:50:37 AM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: verdugo

I didn’t misread your post. You need to do some homework on the poster you responded to. Seriously. Do your homework.


47 posted on 02/28/2011 10:03:07 AM PST by coop71 (Being a redhead means never having to say you're sorry...)
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To: Tax-chick

Don’t tell me you have a thesaurus too, or you’ll be doomed to hellfire for all eternity!

;)


48 posted on 02/28/2011 10:07:31 AM PST by Hoosier Catholic Momma (I'm not breaking down, I'm breaking out...last chance to lose control.--Muse 'Hysteria')
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To: Tax-chick
Would you be so kind as to please write in complete sentences, so that we can get this misunderstanding straightened out?

1) Are you saying that you found on my thread article, the phrase "Sensuous cleavage in pants"?

49 posted on 02/28/2011 10:08:38 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: coop71; verdugo
My post was in reference to this line in the article:

At Communion four ladies – three in pants – went to the side altar to pick up the chalices. The song leader was sensuous, in a blouse showing cleavage ...

Perhaps the OP didn't read the article before posting it. Evidence for this includes the fact that he/she was able to post it, rather than being on the floor laughing hysterically.

50 posted on 02/28/2011 10:10:39 AM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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