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The Feminization of the Catholic Church
Tradition In Action ^ | 2009 | Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.

Posted on 02/28/2011 5:35:55 AM PST by verdugo

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To: verdugo
Would you be so kind as to please write in complete sentences, so that we can get this misunderstanding straightened out?

My post #37 contained five complete sentences, an exclamatory phrase, and, I regret, a genuinely ungrammatical fragment. (The fragment was included for effect, but I've never really believed it's correct to do that.)

I do apologize. If English is not your, or the author's, native language, then my engaging in persiflage has been unkind.

51 posted on 02/28/2011 10:16:42 AM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma

The boys were very disappointed with the thesaurus. Pat wanted it to have definitions, and James wanted it to be a dinosaur.


52 posted on 02/28/2011 10:22:18 AM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: Tax-chick

yet again, I yearn for a “like” button on FR.


53 posted on 02/28/2011 10:28:01 AM PST by mockingbyrd
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To: oh8eleven

I loved those priests! The ones I knew were all WWII vets. Good guys. Tough, though.


54 posted on 02/28/2011 10:30:58 AM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: Tax-chick

LOL! The dinosaur bit sounds like something Brooke (my 6 y.o.) would say. At this point, she’s just glad that she got rid of that nasty C+ in Spelling by scoring 100 on 3 tests in a row.

I’m trying hard to viciously fight the bad spelling gene my husband possesses and so far, I’m winning. (Our oldest boy, Steven, has a 97 average in Spelling and his older sister, Kelly, who’s almost 13, has an A- in the subject). I’m letting them roll with the good math gene that Dad also has. It’s a keeper ;)


55 posted on 02/28/2011 10:32:26 AM PST by Hoosier Catholic Momma (I'm not breaking down, I'm breaking out...last chance to lose control.--Muse 'Hysteria')
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Comment #56 Removed by Moderator

To: kidd
It's:
1) The progressivists elimination of SCHOLASTICISM, the apex of 1900+ years of perfecting theological and philosophical language, which WAS ABANDONED AT VATICAN II for “patched up, incoherent, more appropriate to a Babel and its confusion of languages”, method of writing.

2) The above facilitated, open the door to: the insertion of purposely ambiguous language in VatII, that would later be interpreted to the benefit of the progressives

3)It was the change to the vernacular mass, which opened up the New Mass to all kinds of ad-libbing, as many masses as there were priests (and the Charismatic masses, Clown masses, Conga line masses, Polka masses). Something which could not be done with the mass had it been done in Latin.

Look, what happened was exactly what the progressivists had planned. They had no intention of just doing the New Mass in Latin with the same churches,high altars, vestments, altar men/boys, that existed for like 500 years. They wanted what you see. Had they done the Novus Ordo in Latin, with the same vestments, altars,churches, altar servers as in the 1950’s NO ONE WOULD HAVE NOTICED! That was not their intention, they wanted what you see today.

In the end, the shortage of priests is simple (it stems from the same cause of the shortage of mass attending men) - What man would want to be a priest (or attend mass) in this TOTALLY effeminatized mass environment? Only feelings oriented effeminatized men.

57 posted on 02/28/2011 11:02:11 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: Religion Moderator

Would you be so kind as to eliminate my posting #56.

Thanks, and God Bless


58 posted on 02/28/2011 11:06:12 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: kidd
re: What is the basis for the thought that altar servers need to be male?

The principle reason is to place young men on the road to the priesthood. A young man that served at the Gregorian Latin Mass from say 6 years of age till he was 18, knew the mass and rubrics and Latin better than 99% of the priests today.

59 posted on 02/28/2011 11:16:42 AM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo

Your first two points are good. I have to disagree with your criticism of the vernacular Mass. Ad-libbing can be done in any language, including Latin. Non-standard Masses are almost entirely due to loosely worded Vatican II standards and liberal Bishops who fail to reign in rogue priests, not the language in which they are said.

I don’t have any disrespect for those who want the Mass said in Latin. I would imagine that you have a strong sense for the importance of tradition and feel that the Mass in a different language imparts an element of respect that the Mass deserves.

But could a Charimatic Mass be said in Latin? Of course it could. Could a Latin Mass have folk singers singing the Beatles “Let It Be”? Of course. Could liberal priests promote the importance of turning to socialism in the middle of a Latin Mass? Of course they could, and they did it prior to Vatican II.

Had Vatican II been the same as it is now but kept the Mass in Latin, I don’t see any evidence that anything would have turned out differently.


60 posted on 02/28/2011 11:56:59 AM PST by kidd
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To: verdugo
The principle reason is to place young men on the road to the priesthood.

Makes sense. Then as long as boys are given priority at altar server spots over girls then it is ok to have female altar servers (as long as there is a slot open for a girl that is not filled by a boy)?

61 posted on 02/28/2011 12:06:01 PM PST by kidd
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To: kidd; verdugo
Then as long as boys are given priority at altar server spots over girls then it is ok to have female altar servers (as long as there is a slot open for a girl that is not filled by a boy)?

I don't agree with that.

If, in fact, being an Altar Boy is taking the first step toward the priesthood, then no girl should ever be an Altar Boy. To allow her to take that first step is to lie to her and to the entire Church, that she could complete the journey. Better to have no Altar Boys, than to have girl Altar Boys.

62 posted on 02/28/2011 12:11:32 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I was an Altar boy for five years. I did it out of love for Christ, a need to participate in my parish and a sense of duty. No other reason...I had no intention of becoming a priest. I hope you don’t think that I was lying to my entire Church, because my 11 year old son is an Altar boy because of love of Christ, parish participation and duty - not as a calling.


63 posted on 02/28/2011 12:31:20 PM PST by kidd
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To: kidd
re: have female altar servers,as long as there is a slot open for a girl that is not filled by a boy.

We've been there and done that the last 30 years. It does not work, because the job becomes effeminatized.The boys start dropping like flies, and the girls start to take over. Moreover, the girls will never become priests, so the whole purpose of altar servers is lost. The sancuary is no place for women.

64 posted on 02/28/2011 12:35:38 PM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: kidd
re: have female altar servers,as long as there is a slot open for a girl that is not filled by a boy.

We've been there and done that the last 30 years. It does not work, because the job becomes effeminatized.The boys start dropping like flies, and the girls start to take over. Moreover, the girls will never become priests, so the whole purpose of altar servers is lost. The sancuary is no place for women.

65 posted on 02/28/2011 12:35:50 PM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: kidd
I hope you don’t think that I was lying to my entire Church,

I presume that you're female? (On the internet, nobody knows ...)

If I presume correctly, then read my previous post carefully. I did not say that you lied to anybody. I said that the folks who permitted a girl to dress up like an Altar Boy, and to play the part of one, lied to her.

Bluntly, somebody 'in charge' in the parish where you were a girl Altar Boy lied to you.

66 posted on 02/28/2011 12:44:22 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I’m afraid I would take it a step further and say no women on the altar at all. This is a personal preference. I don’t want women up there doing the readings. I’m all for a male comeback in the Catholic churches. I am blessed to have found a parish in our area that has a huge homeschool community. Our family with 5 kids is one of the smaller families in the parish. On any given Sunday you will find a minimum of 4 but most likely 8+ altar boys serving at Mass. There is about a year waiting list to be trained by Monsignor to become a server. You have to be 12 years old, too. No little guys up there! It makes my heart swell to see it every week.


67 posted on 02/28/2011 12:49:38 PM PST by samiam1972 ("It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."-Mother Teresa)
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To: kidd
re: Ad-libbing can be done in any language, including Latin.

What I explained is not theoretical, it is historical, the Latin was never ad-libbed during the 60's. What the innovators did before the New Mass, during the early 1960’s, was vernacularize more and more portions of the mass, till by 1968, the change over to the New Mass in totally vernacular, was not as big a change. They NEVER ad-libbed the Latin, and still don't today! The New Mass in it's original form is in Latin, and you don't see anyone ad-libbing in Latin. If they ad-lib, it's done by vernaculizing first, then it's further changed to ad-lib.

Remember, the Gregorian Latin mass was used all over the world. If I went to mass in California, Chile, Japan’ India, or Mozambique, the mass was the same mass in the same language from 6 am to 11:59 am, all the same mass. Very difficult to ad-lib. ,p>

68 posted on 02/28/2011 1:15:35 PM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: Tax-chick
Sensuous cleavage in pants!

I didn't realize that pants suits from JC Penney = Thai stripper. Now I know. I guess my church clothes (blue jeans, black shoes, plain jacket) are like going naked.
Apparently to be Real Catholics (TM), we all have to wear lace doilies on our heads when we go out. And we have to sit in the wimmen section.

69 posted on 02/28/2011 1:18:51 PM PST by Anoreth (....a fetid behemoth of toxic pustules oozing all over the basement....)
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma

Pat is brilliant at spelling and anything else one can learn with photo-memory. Anything that takes actual thought is harder, because he doesn’t think the way ordinary humans do.

I haven’t attempted to teach James to spell, yet. I think he’ll just stare blankly at me and mumble about dinosaurs, but I could be surprised.


70 posted on 02/28/2011 1:19:40 PM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: Anoreth

You can just say you’re the bouncer ;-), like when we had the enormous police officer who would stand at the back of the church smiling gently at anyone who tried to leave before Mass was over.


71 posted on 02/28/2011 1:22:49 PM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: Tax-chick

No. Real bouncers show their tattoos. I cover mine up unless it’s hot.


72 posted on 02/28/2011 1:25:15 PM PST by Anoreth (....a fetid behemoth of toxic pustules oozing all over the basement....)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I am male.

I had valid reasons to be an Altar boy (Christ/parish involvement/duty), but I never intended to become a priest. I don’t like anyone thinking that my parents lied to me; they never had any intent to push me towards the priesthood.

When I was in training to be an Altar boy, I was never asked if it was my intent to become a priest. Nor was it ever stated that it was the first step to the priesthood. There were lots of calls for the priesthood in CCD classes, but not in altar boy training.

While becoming an altar boy may be the first step to the priesthood, I have seen nothing that indicates that it is the exclusive reason to be an altar server. As such, calling female altar servers a “lie” is excessive.

In addition, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, confirmed in 1994 that service at the altar is one of the liturgical functions that can be performed by both lay boys and girls. If you believe that the Pope is Peter’s successor and the primacy of Peter, then how can a girl altar server be a “lie” when papal-approved Canon law allows it?


73 posted on 02/28/2011 1:39:23 PM PST by kidd
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To: kidd
I am male.

OK ... then nobody lied to you, and I wasn't talking about you personally.

In addition, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, confirmed in 1994 that service at the altar is one of the liturgical functions that can be performed by both lay boys and girls. If you believe that the Pope is Peter’s successor and the primacy of Peter, then how can a girl altar server be a “lie” when papal-approved Canon law allows it?

OK, it's a prudential judgment, by the Pope, and therefore warrants respectful consideration. Upon respectful consideration, I consider the decision to have been unwise. I note historically that those who pushed for girl Altar Boys were the same folks as were pushing for female Priests. That alone is cause for suspicion. To the extent that being an Altar Boy is (perceived to be) a first step toward the priesthood, allowing girls to take that first step is lying to them. It is telling them, implicitly, that one day (when the Church is more "enlightened") they too may be ordained.

I was an Altar Boy from about age 8 to about age 18. I was never asked if I wanted to be a priest (surprising, in retrospect). I thought about it, but did not have that vocation. Still, there was a pervasive understanding that while not all Altar Boys become Priests, virtually all Priests had been Altar Boys. First step? I think so.

Canon Law permits girl Altar Boys. Therefore, they are permitted. The decision is above my paygrade. It is, however, not a doctrinal definition and I am free to think it unwise.

74 posted on 02/28/2011 1:55:38 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Anoreth

Why are you keeping Michael Moore in your basement?


75 posted on 02/28/2011 1:56:52 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Anoreth
I cover mine up unless it’s hot

In whose opinion? :-)

76 posted on 02/28/2011 2:00:27 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: verdugo
In the end he never finds the simple solution to the present-day astonishing crisis of the feminization of the Catholic Church. He fails to see the obvious, that this process is a direct consequence of Vatican Council II.

Or maybe it's a reaction to so many gay priest who basically preached 'forgiveness' without repentance or change ( in short, priests teaching liberal theology - as opposed to Christian theology )...

77 posted on 02/28/2011 2:01:45 PM PST by GOPJ (http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/index2.php - It's only uncivil when someone on the right does it.- Laz)
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To: ArrogantBustard
I note historically that those who pushed for girl Altar Boys were the same folks as were pushing for female Priests.

Pope JPII must have thought the same thing. Two months after the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments clarified Canon Law about girl altar servers, the Pope issued his statement that men-only priests was a matter of Divine Law and this CANNOT be changed. He drew a line in the sand.

78 posted on 02/28/2011 2:19:19 PM PST by kidd
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To: kidd
Pope issued his statement that men-only priests was a matter of Divine Law and this CANNOT be changed. He drew a line in the sand.

Yes. He did. And when the line was questioned, he held firm. He was the Pope, that was his job. He also threw a few bones to the heretics (girl Altar Boys, Holy Communion in the hand). I wish he had not, but it was his call.

79 posted on 02/28/2011 2:38:14 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: steve86

hmmm... ok — we can discuss this over freepmail and perhaps after Great Lent. There are quite a few anti-Catholic posters who would like nothing better than for us to get filled with rage during Lent, so they will post articles that aim for us to fight.


80 posted on 03/01/2011 1:38:48 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Fred Hayek
Social Justice -- interesting you should bring this up.

The Vatican ambassador said that ‘Social Justice’ is About Relationships, Not Socialism

Peter Cardinal Turkson, President of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, has a message for Catholics in America, particularly those involved in social justice ministry, that could put a damper on the political machinations of the Shadow Party.

The message? “Social justice” is about “relationships,” not “socialism.”

He went on to say

It would be useful if we just observed our sense of justice as our ability to fulfill the demands of the relationships in which we stand.

This is in contrast to socialism, he explained, which is an ideology in which private property and private interests are totally placed in the service of government policies. What the Pope proposes in ‘Caritas in Veritate,’ said Cardinal Turkson, is ‘achieving the common good without sacrificing personal, private interests, aspirations and desires.’

Cardinal Turkson said the Council was also surprised that the Pope’s concept of the ‘gift,’ was perceived in some circles as encouraging government welfare handouts. In ‘Caritas in Veritate,’ Pope Benedict described the concept of “gift” as a way to understand God’s love for men and women in his gift of life and his gift of Jesus.

One of the key principles of Catholic social thought is known as the principle of subsidiarity. This tenet holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization. In other words, any activity which can be performed by a more decentralized entity should be. This principle is a bulwark of limited government and personal freedom. It conflicts with the passion for centralization and bureaucracy characteristic of the Welfare State

You may remember that Pope John Paul II worked closely with President Ronald Reagan and Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher to bring down communism in the Soviet Union and Marxist governments in Latin America. With the worldwide Left now in such kinship with Islam, and with no modern-day Reagan or Thatcher in sight, Pope Benedict XVI certainly has his work cut out for him. If they recognize that America has become polarized, perhaps America’s Catholic bishops will bite the bullet and commit themselves to following in the footsteps of the just-beatified Pope John Paul II…to morally undermine the Left as he morally undermined the Soviet Union.


81 posted on 03/01/2011 1:42:37 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Cronos
It would be useful if we just observed our sense of justice as our ability to fulfill the demands of the relationships in which we stand.

That's a very profound observation. It's not hard to call for "justice" or "peace" on a cosmic scale, but it is hard to treat everyone in your Real Life with the love Christ showed.

82 posted on 03/01/2011 4:27:48 AM PST by Tax-chick (All the brothers have humongous monsters, and the universe is at peace.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

If I can stick my oar in, when I was a kid, boys were encouraged to be altar boys for several reasons: one was to get them off the mean streets of NYC! It gave boys a certain stature in the community. Let’s face it, girls don’t cause as much trouble when left to their own devices - boys - a far different story.


83 posted on 03/01/2011 7:01:59 AM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: Cronos

One of the key principles of Catholic social thought is known as the principle of subsidiarity. This tenet holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization. In other words, any activity which can be performed by a more decentralized entity should be. This principle is a bulwark of limited government and personal freedom. It conflicts with the passion for centralization and bureaucracy characteristic of the Welfare State.

This I am in 100% agreement with. I know a number of conservative priests who have this same exact view. Here in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota, however, the term social justice has been turned into another term for socialism. I would dare say another example of Marxian corruption of the langauge. It’s also good to see Cardinal Turkson throw a wrench in this linguistic corruption. I take his comment about relationships one step further, where the foundation is the relationship with Jesus Christ.


84 posted on 03/01/2011 8:22:32 AM PST by Fred Hayek (All Hail the No Talent Pop Star pResident.)
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To: Fred Hayek; miss marmelstein
One of the key principles of Catholic social thought is known as the principle of subsidiarity. This tenet holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization. In other words, any activity which can be performed by a more decentralized entity should be. This principle is a bulwark of limited government and personal freedom. It conflicts with the passion for centralization and bureaucracy characteristic of the Welfare State.

Fred: This I am in 100% agreement with. I know a number of conservative priests who have this same exact view....It’s also good to see Cardinal Turkson throw a wrench in this linguistic corruption. I take his comment about relationships one step further, where the foundation is the relationship with Jesus Christ.

Yes -- and I see his statements as a call to duty, a call to arms for all us Catholics. We obey the Church, and if a bishop does not follow orthodoxy, we need to shout him out, write letters to his superiors, all the way up to the pope.

I've had enough of bad priests (2% or 10%) maligning the good priests I know and maligning the Church.

85 posted on 03/02/2011 4:17:35 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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