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Wait, where's the book of Enoch?
I'm home sick and bored, to be honest. ^ | 3-4-11 | Dangus

Posted on 03/04/2011 12:17:51 PM PST by dangus

The Epistle of St. Jude cites the prophet Enoch:

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “Behold, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his saints 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
Wait, WHAT prophet Enoch?

The Old Testament certainly does mention an Enoch. He was the father of Methusaleh, the longest-living man ever to walk the face of the Earth. Methusaleh drowned in the flood of Noah. Apparently, Enoch didn't. Some suppose Enoch didn't die. The bible says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him." Whatever that means.

Strangely, however, the bible records not a word spoken by Enoch.

But, there IS, in fact, a book of Enoch. It's just not in the bible. At least, it's not in the Catholic, Protestant or most Orthodox bibles. Some suppose that's because it's full of dubious and fanciful passages, and the Church Fathers couldn't tell when the authentic parts of Enoch ended, and when the imaginative apocalyptic imagery began. We still have it, however, because the Ethiopian Church counts it among the books of the bible.

That passage from Jude comes from the first portion of Enoch, which reads:

Great fear and trembling shall seize them, even to the ends of the earth. The lofty mountains shall be troubled, and the exalted hills depressed, melting like a honeycomb in the flame. The earth shall be immerged, and all things which are in it perish; while judgment shall come upon all, even upon all the righteous:But to them shall he give peace: he shall preserve the elect, and towards them exercise clemency. Then shall all belong to God; be happy and blessed; and the splendour of the Godhead shall illuminate them. Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him

--Enoch 1:6-2:1

Enoch is a fascinating book for many other reasons. For instance, it foretold that Jesus' birth would be seventy generations after Enoch (10:15) , in exact agreement with the gospel of Luke (3:23-38)

Sadly, however, it's hard to tell how much of Enoch is genuine. Various leaders of the Dead Sea Scrolls project have claimed to see the book (or microfiche replica of it) in its entirety, but that it's held in private hands and so their claims cannot be verified. Such a claim is astounding, since Enoch gives great detail of the gospels.

Chapter 92 of Enoch is particularly fascinating (Enoch isn't THAT long; some chapters are but a single verse.), describing the history and future of Mankind as in eight weeks. Bad news, folks: The third millennium after the founding of the church isn't a happy one:

And during its [the 6th week's] completion He shall burn the house of dominion with fire, and all the race of the elect root shall be dispersed. Afterwards, in the seventh week, a perverse generation shall arise; abundant shall be its deeds, and all its deeds perverse. During its completion, the righteous shall be selected from the everlasting plant of righteousness; and to them shall be given the sevenfold doctrine of his whole creation.
What's interesting is that Chapter 92 correctly pegs the founding of the Church (AD 30) as happening exactly 1000 years after King David's reign (970 BC), and that it describes 3,000 years from the founding of the Church until the coming of the Messiah, when most early Christians expected a quicker 2nd coming or that it would come 1000 years after the founding of the Church.

Finally, the last notable thing about the New Testament's citation of Enoch: So much for sola scriptura. Unless you use the Ethiopian canon.


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; History; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: dangus
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1 posted on 03/04/2011 12:17:55 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
"Methusaleh (sic) drowned in the flood of Noah."

Nope! The flood happened the year that Methuselah died . . . The literal meaning of his name is "When He Is Dead It Shall Be Sent."

2 posted on 03/04/2011 12:23:52 PM PST by haywoodwebb (The "Manchurian Candidate's" agenda is right on schedule . . . Black & Humble)
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To: dangus

I’ve always enjoyed the connection between Genesis 6, and the sons of man in[Giants] Enoch.


3 posted on 03/04/2011 12:24:00 PM PST by Palter (If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it. ~ Mark Twain)
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To: dangus

Talmudic tradition teaches that Methuselah died the year of the flood, in fact according to earliest commentaries on the Talmud, the seven day period given in Genesis 7:4 was on the day of Methuselah’s death to give Noah and his family a week of mourning for him.

Enoch is an interesting extra-canonical work, though, and was clearly known in the time of the early Church.

A fascinating read.


4 posted on 03/04/2011 12:25:58 PM PST by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: dangus

The Book of Enoch claims that Giants were spawned from the union of rebel angels and earth women.


5 posted on 03/04/2011 12:26:28 PM PST by Perdogg (What Would Aqua Buddha do?)
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To: dangus

Isn’t this date setting, which is supposed to be a no no?


6 posted on 03/04/2011 12:29:17 PM PST by gop4lyf ("Socialism is the political dream of the unachiever, the excuse maker, and the lazy.")
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To: dangus
Freeper Research Project: Enoch and Astronomy



7 posted on 03/04/2011 12:29:49 PM PST by evets (beer)
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To: Perdogg; Zionist Conspirator

Yup. Genesis 6. Not saying I believe in all of Enoch; I noted that we don’t know how much of what Jude was quoting constitutes the current book we have. But it’s written from the perspective of someone who witnessed the events of Genesis 6, when the Sons of God came down from the Heavens, and took women as wives. It doesn’t then specifically state that Giants were the offspring, but does leap straight off into talking about giants.

I’ve had extensive conversations with Zionist Conspirator about the Catholic Church not knowing what to make of the beginning of Genesis.

ZC, I’m not meaning to start up that conversation, but thought its only good manners to point out when I talk about you.

OK, actually I would like your opinion on this: Whereas the Church and Benedict and John Paul expound quite greatly on the story of Adam and Eve, presuming it to be completely truthful, I can’t say I’ve ever heard anything about the Sons of God having their way with human women, breeding a race of giants. What is a creationist, young earth or not, supposed to make of this? I’ve reconciled young-earth creationism and my background in science, but I’ve not wrestled with giant angelic fornicators (fortunately :^D)


8 posted on 03/04/2011 12:43:32 PM PST by dangus
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To: evets

Sorry, but Enoch describes THREE thousand years after the founding of the Church, not TWO. And whatever events happen at the close of the 2nd millennium would probably happen at around 2012, not 2030.


9 posted on 03/04/2011 12:45:08 PM PST by dangus
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To: evets

Sorry, but Enoch describes THREE thousand years after the founding of the Church, not TWO. And whatever events happen at the close of the 2nd millennium would probably happen at around 2012, not 2030.

I said that backwards. 2030, not 2012.


10 posted on 03/04/2011 12:45:52 PM PST by dangus
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To: gop4lyf

Explain? What’s date setting? What does date setting mean?


11 posted on 03/04/2011 12:47:39 PM PST by dangus
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To: haywoodwebb

Oh, OK. What did he die of? Since all the descendants of Enoch died in about the same year (except Noah and company), I’ll admit I presumed that wasn’t just a coincidence.


12 posted on 03/04/2011 12:49:14 PM PST by dangus
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To: haywoodwebb

>> The literal meaning of his name is “When He Is Dead It Shall Be Sent.” <<

Just wondering: Did Methuselah work for UPS?


13 posted on 03/04/2011 12:50:09 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

Umm, you do realize that:

1) Jews do not count Enoch in the Tanakh
2) It is an aprocrapil work - authorship is uncertain
3) Was not written in Hebrew as were the other books of Tanakh

And for those reasons was not included in the canon by the early fathers.


14 posted on 03/04/2011 12:50:09 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: haywoodwebb

>> The literal meaning of his name is “When He Is Dead It Shall Be Sent.” <<

Just wondering: Did Methuselah work for USPS?


15 posted on 03/04/2011 12:50:27 PM PST by dangus
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To: taxcontrol

>> 1) Jews do not count Enoch in the Tanakh <<

Yes, I realize that. And even if I cared — which I don’t, because they rejected several books on the grounds that they pointed to an imminent Messiah — I ALSO NOTED that Enoch is not canonical to Catholics (like me), Protestants, or most Orthodox. So what’s your point?

>> 2) It is an aprocrapil work - authorship is uncertain <<

Well, St. Jude seems to have regarded some portion of it as authentic, although AS I NOTED, we don’t know how much of the work we currently have would have been recognized by St. Jude.

>> 3) Was not written in Hebrew as were the other books of Tanakh <<

What we have was written in Ge’ez. Presumably, that’s a translation, since St. Jude probably wouldn’t be citing anything written in Ge’ez.

>> And for those reasons was not included in the canon by the early fathers. <<

Yup. I could mention several other reasons if I though them relevant. What’s interesting is that St. Jude cites a work which plainly wasn’t canonical. Kinda shoots that whole notion of sola scriptura down in a fiery crash.


16 posted on 03/04/2011 12:57:22 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
I can’t say I’ve ever heard anything about the Sons of God having their way with human women, breeding a race of giants.

You can check out Dr. Michael Heiser video presentation on Genesis 6.

17 posted on 03/04/2011 1:00:49 PM PST by Palter (If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it. ~ Mark Twain)
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To: Perdogg

18 posted on 03/04/2011 1:01:11 PM PST by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: Palter

Mention of UFOs in the first twenty seconds of an eighty minute video. No thanks. Wanna give me a little bit of synopsis, preview, some reason to think that Michael Heiser is anything but a stark raving lunatic escaped from the Coast-to-Coast asylum?

(Anytime someone with an unidentifed PhD mentions UFOs...)


19 posted on 03/04/2011 1:04:47 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

Please take your time and watch the video. A FReeper request, he’s not a nut.


20 posted on 03/04/2011 1:06:39 PM PST by Palter (If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it. ~ Mark Twain)
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To: shield

What's yer point?

21 posted on 03/04/2011 1:06:50 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

THANKS.

Still haven’t finished my 2nd read of the preferred translation.

Sorry.


22 posted on 03/04/2011 1:07:41 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: dangus
"What did he die of?"

We don't know for sure but I think old age would be a good guess.

Anyway, Hebrew tradition holds that he died 7 days before the flood and his name marked his death as a harbinger of the destruction to come.

While not the only translation for each of the names, Chuck Missler has a wonderful teaching on the Gospel hidden in plain sight in the names of the Genesis patriarchs.

23 posted on 03/04/2011 1:10:37 PM PST by haywoodwebb (The "Manchurian Candidate's" agenda is right on schedule . . . Black & Humble)
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To: dangus
"Did Methuselah work for USPS?"

Yes, he did and his choice of retiring at 50 while continuing to live another 919 years on government pension is rumored to be the cause of the financial collapse of the original creation!

24 posted on 03/04/2011 1:15:18 PM PST by haywoodwebb (The "Manchurian Candidate's" agenda is right on schedule . . . Black & Humble)
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To: Perdogg
"The Book of Enoch claims that Giants were spawned from the union of rebel angels and earth women"

The book of Genesis claims the same thing!

25 posted on 03/04/2011 1:17:37 PM PST by haywoodwebb (The "Manchurian Candidate's" agenda is right on schedule . . . Black & Humble)
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To: haywoodwebb

Ya, where’d he get the idea Methuselah drowned... must-of been watching The History Channel.


26 posted on 03/04/2011 1:18:48 PM PST by dps.inspect (the system is rigged...)
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To: dangus

I did not post that picture back to you....read the post I posted it back to...


27 posted on 03/04/2011 1:20:08 PM PST by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: dangus
Thanks for the ping.

Methuselah did not drown during the Flood. He died seven days before it started.

There was also a son of Qayin named Chanokh, after whom the first city was named.

So far as I know, there are two schools of thought on the "sons of G-d" and the "daughters of man." One is that it refers to intermarriage between the male descendants of Qayin (who were evil) with the female descendants of Shet (who were faithful).

Now, as for the question about fallen angels, I once asked that very question. I was puzzled because, according to traditional Jewish teaching, HaSatan is not a "fallen angel" but merely another of G-d's employees doing his job. Here is what I was told:

Two specific angels (I was given their names but do no remember them, unfortunately) asked HaShem why He didn't destroy mankind for his sinfulness. HaShem responded, "it is easy for you, being angels, to take a harsh view of man. But if you were flesh and blood you would also sin." The two angels immediately denied this, saying that they would never do such a thing. HaShem asked them "would you like to see? Would you like Me to give you bodies of flesh like man?" They said yes, and they would still resist temptation. HaShem granted their wish . . . but they were unable, in bodies of flesh, to resist temptation. So the "men of renown" were the descendants of those two enfleshed angels.

The moral of the story: no one can resist a babe!

BTW, I am now listening to Georgian language radio online. It isn't as pretty to listen to as it is to look at.

28 posted on 03/04/2011 1:20:49 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Kol ha`over `al-hapequdim mibben `esrim shanah vama`lah yitten terumat HaShem.)
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To: shield
I read an account of people digging up a “mound” and finding several 7 foot tall skeletons in the mound with beads and other artifacts. It was written in the early 1800’s!
29 posted on 03/04/2011 1:28:15 PM PST by mountainlion
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To: gop4lyf

“Isn’t this date setting, which is supposed to be a no no?”

It’s not a “no-no” if God does it :P


30 posted on 03/04/2011 1:30:14 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: dangus

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1971/in-the-bible-who-were-the-giant-sons-of-god


31 posted on 03/04/2011 1:30:38 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: dangus

“If Jude quoted the apocryphal book, he was affirming only the truth of that prophecy and not endorsing the book in its entirety (cf. Paul’s quotation of the Cretan poet Epimenides, in Titus 1:12).”


32 posted on 03/04/2011 1:33:54 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (.)
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To: mountainlion

This is a dig in Greece and that is just one picture. There are many more pictures of these giants. Then there are other pictures from others parts of the world of giant bones much like this picture. I was shocked when I saw these pictures. I knew there were giants...but this large....yikes. Josephus wrote their screams were awful and were cannibals....


33 posted on 03/04/2011 1:40:35 PM PST by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

“So the “men of renown” were the descendants of those two enfleshed angels.”

Interesting take. How does that theory explain the post-flood giants though? Did those two angels escape wrath long enough to fornicate some more after the waters receded?


34 posted on 03/04/2011 1:40:59 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: mountainlion

“I read an account of people digging up a “mound” and finding several 7 foot tall skeletons in the mound with beads and other artifacts. It was written in the early 1800’s!”

I’ve read the same thing; the problem is, the only places you can find that story are all quoting the same source, with no verifiable attribution. In fact, they all have the same set of “giant evidence” stories, and none of them are really verifiable.

The one story in that list I was able to track down, was of the giant femur found in Turkey in the early 20th century. The list shows a picture, claiming it is the actual femur, and that it is housed in a Creationist museum. The truth, however, is that what is shown in the picture is a sculptor’s recreation of the supposed femur, which was recreated solely on the basis of a single eyewitness’ claim. The actual bone, if it ever existed, apparently was lost.


35 posted on 03/04/2011 1:46:02 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
Interesting take. How does that theory explain the post-flood giants though? Did those two angels escape wrath long enough to fornicate some more after the waters receded?

I'm not sure what kind of "wrath" they angels faced (since they didn't "rebel" per se), but as to the post-Flood giants, `Og escaped the Flood by clinging onto the Ark and being fed via a window. He lived hundreds and hundreds of years (being killed by Moses), and so had plenty of time to sew his genes throughout the post-Flood world.

36 posted on 03/04/2011 1:47:06 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Kol ha`over `al-hapequdim mibben `esrim shanah vama`lah yitten terumat HaShem.)
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To: dangus

***Well, St. Jude seems to have regarded some portion of it as authentic,***

Perhaps Jude was just quoting from Enoch to make a point much as St Paul quoted pagan authors in his work. that does not make the pagan authors’ work holy writ.

I believe Clement quoted from the Illiad or Odessey of Homer in his letters.


37 posted on 03/04/2011 1:47:35 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Visit the TOMMY FRANKS MILITARY MUSEUM in HOBART, OK. I did, well worth it!)
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To: Boogieman; mountainlion

***“I read an account of people digging up a “mound” and finding several 7 foot tall skeletons...”***

I remember seeing a 7 foot tall skeleton at Aztec Ruins in Aztec, NM back in 1955.

That skeleton has since been removed and stored when indian visitors complained.

I once asked about it on a much later visit and was told it was no longer for public display.


38 posted on 03/04/2011 1:54:32 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Visit the TOMMY FRANKS MILITARY MUSEUM in HOBART, OK. I did, well worth it!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; Boogieman; mountainlion

Maybe you should try digging in the NBA graveyard?


39 posted on 03/04/2011 2:18:37 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: shield
There are stories of giants in Iran but the religious politics have probably already destroyed the evidence.
40 posted on 03/04/2011 2:49:02 PM PST by mountainlion
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To: dangus

The assertion of yours that I dont understand is about sola scriptura (more properly prima scriptura, but that is another discussion).

So please explain to me how a book that was rejected for inclusion in the canon because it did not meet the criteria established by the early fathers of the church “shoots” the idea of sola scriptura. I see it as a perfectly sound reason for explaining why sola scriptura is a sound practice.

For many reasons the book was rejected. Not saying that it was a BAD book or that the teachings are wrong. The point is that much of what we know about the book is so limited that to prevent the introduction of something that MIGHT be in error, we stick to that which we know to be truth. A beliver can then “work out their faith” by testing the message of the questionable work against scripture. This is true for an OT work such as Enoch or can also be used for Gnostic texts (which will fail the test of scripture).

Allow me to make a more modern example, Are the writtings of Billy Graham or Ellen White or Pope or Bishop or whatever automaticly cannon? No, they are not. They may be GOOD writings. They may be sound and scholarly works. Does not mean that they need to be added to the canon.

If one were to follow your logic, one could easily speak against sola ecclesia as well.

Side note, I should point out that all of the major traditions of Christianity recognise the same 27 books of the New Testament.


41 posted on 03/04/2011 3:22:08 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: shield

Interesting picture, can you provide a reference or URL for those of us who are curious?


42 posted on 03/04/2011 3:23:58 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: shield

Aw, I was jiss funnin ya.


43 posted on 03/04/2011 3:39:27 PM PST by dangus
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To: Perdogg

“The Book of Enoch claims that Giants were spawned from the union of rebel angels and earth women.”

So does the Bible in Genesis Chap 6...

“The number of people increased all over the earth, and daughters were born to them. The sons of God saw that the daughters of other humans were beautiful. So they married any woman they chose. Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not struggle with humans forever, because they are flesh and blood. They will live 120 years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, as well as later, when the sons of God slept with the daughters of other humans and had children by them. These children were famous long ago. The LORD saw how evil humans had become on the earth. All day long their deepest thoughts were nothing but evil. The LORD was sorry that he had made humans on the earth, and he was heartbroken. So he said, “I will wipe off the face of the earth these humans that I created. I will wipe out not only humans, but also domestic animals, crawling animals, and birds. I’m sorry that I made them.” But the LORD was pleased with Noah.” (Genesis 6:1-8)


44 posted on 03/04/2011 3:51:47 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a tea party descendant - steeped in the Constitutional legacy handed down by the Founders)
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To: taxcontrol
I am looking for it...I saved the pictures back in September and thought I'd saved the link to the dig...I can't find it now...will look more.


Map of the dig in greece:

45 posted on 03/04/2011 4:24:23 PM PST by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: shield

Heres a link from youtube that has a lot of pics in videos maybe you can find a link mentioned in one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1RD49XG12Y


46 posted on 03/04/2011 4:47:32 PM PST by Lees Swrd ("Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe and preserve order in the world as well")
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To: shield

So that dig was in Greece near the city of Argos?


47 posted on 03/04/2011 4:52:33 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Any economy based on Keynesian principles and practices are always ponzi/pyramid schemes.)
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To: haywoodwebb; dangus
"Methusaleh (sic) drowned in the flood of Noah."

So....don't Enoch it until you dried it.

48 posted on 03/04/2011 4:57:27 PM PST by Larry Lucido (The "examiner" blog is the Typhoid Mary of warmed over news. Visit at your own risk!)
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To: Lees Swrd

Thanks...that has almost all the pictures I have. So now we have a coverup taking place about this dig. Now I understand why no one had heard of it...and I couldn’t find my link...because I never had a link...


49 posted on 03/04/2011 4:58:50 PM PST by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: Lees Swrd
And here is another picture of giants in a completely different location and country:


50 posted on 03/04/2011 5:18:14 PM PST by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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