Skip to comments.Radio Replies Second Volume - Purgatory
Posted on 03/12/2011 10:29:53 PM PST by GonzoII
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Radio Replies Volume Two: Destiny of Man/Death
Radio Replies Volume Two: Immortality of Man's Soul & Pre-existence Denied
Radio Replies Volume Two: The Human Free Will
Radio Replies Volume Two: Determinism Absurd
Radio Replies Volume Two: Necessity of Religion
Radio Replies Volume Two: Salvation of the Soul
Radio Replies Volume Two: Voice of Science
Radio Replies Volume Two: Religious Racketeers
Radio Replies Volume Two: Divine Revelation
Radio Replies Volume Two: Gospels Historical
Radio Replies Volume Two: Missing Books of the Bible
Radio Replies Volume Two: The Bible Inspired
Radio Replies Volume Two: Biblical Account of Creation
Radio Replies Volume Two: New Testament Problems
Radio Replies Volume Two: Source of Christian Teaching
Radio Replies Volume Two: Jewish Rejecton of Christ
Radio Replies Volume Two: Christianity a New Religion
Radio Replies Volume Two: Rational Foundation for Belief
Radio Replies Volume Two: Causes of Unbelief
Radio Replies Volume Two: Divisions Amongst Christians
Radio Replies Volume Two: Schisms Unjustified
Radio Replies Volume Two: Facing the Problem
Radio Replies Volume Two: Wrong Approach
Radio Replies Volume Two: Is One Religion as Good as Another?
Radio Replies Volume Two: The Petrine Text
Radio Replies Volume Two: St. Peter's Supremacy
Radio Replies Volume Two: St. Peter in Rome
Radio Replies Volume Two: Temporal Power
Radio Replies Volume Two: Infallibility
Radio Replies Volume Two: Unity of the Church
Radio Replies Volume Two: Holiness of the Church
Radio Replies Volume Two: Catholicity of the Church
Radio Replies Volume Two: Apostolicity of the Church
Radio Replies Volume Two: Indefectibility of the Church
Radio Replies Volume Two: Obligation to be a Catholic
Radio Replies Volume Two: The Claims of Science
Radio Replies Volume Two: The Holy Trinity
Radio Replies Volume Two: Creation and Evolution
Radio Replies Volume Two: Angels
Radio Replies Volume Two: Devils
Radio Replies Volume Two: Grace and Salvation
Radio Replies Volume Two: The Sacraments [Baptism]
Radio Replies Volume Two: Confession
Radio Replies Volume Two: Holy Eucharist
Radio Replies Volume Two: The Sacrifice of the Mass
Radio Replies Volume Two: Holy Communion
Radio Replies Volume Two: The Catholic Priesthood
Radio Replies Volume Two: Marriage and Divorce
Radio Replies Volume Two: Extreme Unction
Radio Replies Volume Two: Judgment
Right there should be the main reason why this idea of an "intermediate" place between earth and Heaven must be tossed out on its ear. Christians have been given the Holy Scriptures as our sole guide of what is truth for Christians. How dare a mere man - regardless of hierarchy place - proclaim sovereignty ABOVE the very words of God? Here's a thought: If it isn't in Scripture, or proven by Scripture, it is NOT binding on a Christian to believe. To discount the authority of the Scriptures is to surrender to fallible men the freedom to create their own truth, and God will NOT ignore such belligerence.
If the Words do not come from the Mouth of God Himself...then it came from the imagination of man. I will stick to the Word of God Thank you. It is the Only Truth God gave to man.
P.S. Jesus Christ paid it ALL for Salvation, it really grieves my spirit to think that His sacrifice was not quite good enough for the Catholic Church...what a shame...I pray God will reveal His Word to you.
Great list of scripture in second half.
Can you show me that in Scripture?
Can you give me a list of the books of the Bible from Scripture?
Glad to hear that, let's start out with where it's found.
1Tm:3:15: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (KJV)
You see, we Catholics have a Church to guide us and tell us what we need to know about getting to heaven, we don't have to worry about the "the imagination of man" leading us astray as so many have been since the Reformation.
“I am getting rather tired of being asked to prove everything from the Bible, as if the Bible were the only test of what we must accept or reject.”
I would get tired of that too if I were trying to teach doctrine not found in God’s word.
Lets go back one verse to 1 Tm 3:14
14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Now it becomes clear that Paul was telling them in his letter (inspired by God) the things they needed to know until he came to see them shortly. How to act in God’s Church.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995) translates as this
in case I’m delayed. I want you to know how people who are members of God’s family must live. God’s family is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Darby Bible Translation translates as this
but if I delay, in order that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God’s house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.
God’s infallible Word needs to be our guide, not a fallible church.
I still see the church as the pillar of the truth in those verses.
If that were so, shouldn't the above assertion be itself someplace in the Holy Scripture?
Shouldn't, further the assertion that the Church is our sole guide (Mt. 18:17) be not in the scripture?
"841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
This is way above your pay grade your not a canon lawyer. He is talking about within the context of Invincible Ignorance. Notice the word Plan in the statement not salvation. The plan is laid down for salvation.
Christ said He that believe in me has eternal life if he does not he is already condemned. Now does this mean a child who hears or a handicapped mental child or adult who does not understand is condemned. No! What about the rare few who for no fault of their own either what background( Muslim or whatever) never heard or understood what this means. This is noted for these few in the statement. They will be judged on what they do know like the Apostle Paul states and implies. Their conscience is judged.
So now little children and babies go to hell. I believe they are ignorant of the situation. What about mentally challenged. What about people who do not just understand. I believe most do understand the Basic Gospel. Most will go to hell as stated in scripture who knowly reject. I knew people who out right did not care even if it was true when I witnessed.
If God can see whats inside a person's belief or unbelief for real. If he wants to forgive for ignorance who are you to say otherwise.
You just do not get it. It's still beyond your view. May God bless and Keep you safe. Praise Jesus! Thy Kingdom Come! Thy will be Done!
So why does Christ say blessed the little One's
In Matthew 18:10, Jesus says of children: "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven"
WHY So their set up for hell. Very Morbid.
I’m wondering how, in this theology, you would avoid the conclusion that individuals are not responsible for their sin (only God is) or the call for each to repent as Jesus taught?
I have believed in Purgatory from as far back in childhood as I can remember, just as I have believed abortion was murder from as soon as it occurred to me someone could do that heinous deed, and this was in the absence of any significant early Catholic education. I am certainly no Saint and did the usual wild teenager things but have never wavered from my fundamental Catholic beliefs. Maybe the Holy Spirit provided some assistance along the way?
The individual free will choice to respond to God’s grace and love by repenting and taking responsibility for our sins would reconcile it for me. And be according to what scripture plainly states as you note.
Having no choice, or the choice predetermined as I believe you are arguing, is what I have a hard time reconciling, theologically. Without choice, I can’t see how there can be responsibility.
Thanks very much for your courteous reply.
Expected straw man argument. Your own religion teaches that the Holy Scriptures are divinely inspired and as the Word of God they are given to Christians for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (II Timothy 3:15-17)
Therefore, the argument should be about what Scripture teaches about this so-called Purgatory, NOT whether or not Scripture is relevant. So, based upon that, the question remains "What does Scripture teach about Purgatory?". The answer is NOT ANYTHING. The verses quoted in an attempt to prove the concept by Scripture is obviously lame. Every one given is never in support of such a place. In fact, Scripture very clearly teaches that there is never any need for such a place.
We know from many Scriptures that ALL have sinned, ALL are in need of a Savior. Proverbs 20:9 says, "Who can say, 'I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin'?" Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
We also know that without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins. Hebrews 9:22-23 says, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Leviticus 17:11 says, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
And lastly, we know that through the blood of Jesus Christ, we are cleansed from all sin. Hebrews 9:22-28 is very clear, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in Gods presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
We know that there is no other "place of cleansing" but Jesus Christ and that we are made holy, sanctified, justified, made righteous by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. He gave his life in place of ours, and by his sacrifice - his once for all sacrifice - we may enter Heaven when we die. We have been cleansed of ALL sin, there is no need for an intermediate place for further cleansing. To teach this (Purgatory) is to ignore Scripture and the entire purpose for the cross. That is why we can count on the Holy Scriptures for the Holy Scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (II Timothy 3:15)
The Holy Scripture indeed equips the Catholics to do every good work and especially to teach. But the Holy Scripture is not the only source of such teaching, the Catholic Church as a whole is. It is of course relevant what the scripture says about the Purgatory, but one should not expect a treatise on Purgatory embedded in the scripture, just like there is no treatise about the Trinity embedded in the Holy Scripture. As the authors say,
The Catholic Church has Scriptural authority for whatever doctrines she teaches, insofar as she was appointed to be the teacher of mankind by Christ. It would not really matter whether a given doctrine were contained in Scripture or not. While everything in the Bible is true, not everything true is in the Bible.
I am waiting to hear an answer: "shouldn't the assertion that Holy Scriptures is our sole guide, be itself someplace in the Holy Scripture?"
"What does Scripture teach about Purgatory?". The answer is NOT ANYTHING. [proceeds quoting much scripture about Christ Our Savior]
The authors of the article showed you the relevant scripture. An intellifgent conversation could happen if it commented on the relevant scripture rather than quoting something you think is relevant and ignoring the article about which you attempt to opine.
We know that there is no other "place of cleansing" but Jesus Christ and that we are made holy, sanctified, justified, made righteous by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. He gave his life in place of ours, and by his sacrifice - his once for all sacrifice - we may enter Heaven when we die. We have been cleansed of ALL sin, there is no need for an intermediate place for further cleansing
This is a non-sequitur. Christ indeed alone sanctifies, but this doesn't speak to the issue whether the sancification happens on earth only or also in the Purgatory. If you read the article closely, you would have found this point addressed:
855. Would not the blood of Christ shed for all sinners cleanse their souls?
It could do so, did souls make full and perfect use of it. But the precious blood of Christ does not cleanse the souls of men in spite of themselves. Men have to do their part by sincere repentance and by the yielding of their souls to Christ in faith and love. But there are degrees of repentance, and faith, and love. Granted perfect repentance, and faith, and love, a soul participates fully in the effects of the precious blood of Christ. All sins are then expiated, and no further expiation in purgatory will be required. But some souls have very imperfect repentance, and faith, and love; while others have none at all. The precious blood of Christ does its work in a soul proportionately to the dispositions of that soul.
I often wonder something similar. It appears that God leads His elect differently: some grasp the faith as children and it remains with them since childhood. Others go through much struggle as adults:
 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me.  As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.  And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. (John 10)
During my conversion to Catholicism (I was baptized Orthodox) I often marveled: -- "Why, this is what I always believed". But I never had ANY religious instruction as a child. It just felt as if I knew what I was not really told.
And your Guardian Angel.
The proof texting is so bad that it is laughable.. read in context PLEASE
Purgatory is not in the scripture ANYWHERE ..
Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!!
Praise His Name!!
Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!!
God works in mysterious ways, with flawed tools like you and me
Seems to me everything should be excused in your soteriology.
Whether you’re saved or doomed is determined before you’re born.
You cannot choose to accept or reject Christ.
How can someone be held responsible if they cannot act otherwise?