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Mary, Worthy of Honor But a Sinner in Need of a Savior

Posted on 03/20/2011 12:54:27 AM PDT by count-your-change

Was Mary, Jesus' mother and wife of Joseph, immaculately conceived, i.e., free of original sin from conception? If we accept the teaching of the Scriptures we must answer, "No". The Bible is not ambiguous on this subject as the inspired writer, the apostle of Christ, Paul, wrote at Romans 5:12: "Well then, sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned".(JB)

Mary was part of the human race and grew old and died just as Paul wrote.

As The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the topic, "Immaculate Conception" says, "Genesis 3:15 No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically."

Thus, while admitting an "immaculate conception" for Mary is not Scriptural an attempt is made to connect it with Genesis 3:15, an interpretation that "cannot be defended critically". "the woman" of Gen. 3:15 was not Mary, yet further along in the article Mary is termed the "second Eve" and 1 Cor. 15:22 is referred to, which reads:

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive".

Mary explains how God would be her savior and that of Israel by fulfilling His promise to Abraham. (Luke 1:54).


TOPICS: Apologetics; History
KEYWORDS: conception; immaculate; mary
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Jesus prayed for his disciples to be "sanctified in the truth" (John 17:17), that requires that we know the truth of God's Word.
1 posted on 03/20/2011 12:54:34 AM PDT by count-your-change
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To: count-your-change

Amen & Amen!
I agree, Mary was to be honored and highly favored among women, but she also needed a Saviour. And the child she conceived by the Holy Spirit was her Saviour.


2 posted on 03/20/2011 1:01:05 AM PDT by LetMarch (If a man knows the right way to live, and does not live it, there is no greater coward. (Anonymous)
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To: count-your-change

It’s obvious from Scripture, eh? We have a rahter impressive collection of works by ll sorts of Christian writers from about 50 A.D. to 500 A.D.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

Find me a SINGLE one of those writers—most of whom read the Scriptures *in the original*—who makes the point made here: that Mary was NOT immaculately conceived.

Good luck. You’ll need it.


3 posted on 03/20/2011 1:14:29 AM PDT by Claud
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To: LetMarch

By the way, no one is arguing she didn’t need a savior. She said so herself that she did.

The question is how was she saved. I can save you by a pulling you out of a ditch. I can also save you by preventing you from falling into it in the first place.


4 posted on 03/20/2011 1:17:40 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud

Prove to me that there are not little green men on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri.


5 posted on 03/20/2011 1:18:36 AM PDT by newguy357
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To: newguy357

Because an Englishman has not traversed there and named them.


6 posted on 03/20/2011 1:45:39 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: count-your-change

If Mary was immaculately concieved, it would have been by the Holy Spirit, which would have made her God as Jesus is God.


7 posted on 03/20/2011 1:54:55 AM PDT by PrepareToLeave (Arrows of the Almighty @ Amazon.com)
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To: Claud
"By the way, no one is arguing she didn’t need a savior. She said so herself that she did.

The question is how was she saved."

You've answered your own question.

If she needed a Savior, then she was saved by Christ's death for our sins, burial, and resurrection.

8 posted on 03/20/2011 2:03:17 AM PDT by Semper Mark (Vlad Tepes was a piker.)
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To: Claud

Find a single WRITER of those originals that make the point that Mary WAS immaculately conceived.

p.s., I don’t believe in luck.


9 posted on 03/20/2011 2:26:53 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: newguy357
Prove to me that there are not little green men on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri.

Cute. Except I'm not asking anyone to prove a negative. Then I would have said "prove that NONE of the Church Fathers believed this."

I asked someone to prove that ONE of the Church Fathers believed this.

10 posted on 03/20/2011 3:06:56 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Markos33
If she needed a Savior, then she was saved by Christ's death for our sins, burial, and resurrection.

Exactly. And that's precisely what the solemn definition of the dogma said:

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

11 posted on 03/20/2011 3:12:22 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
"Exactly."

Wrong.

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

Read what you just wrote, again.

When and where is Mary removed from the curse of Adam?

12 posted on 03/20/2011 3:22:03 AM PDT by Semper Mark (Vlad Tepes was a piker.)
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To: count-your-change
Find a single WRITER of those originals that make the point that Mary WAS immaculately conceived.

"And, moreover, the ark made of imperishable wood was the Saviour Himself. For by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle of (the Lord) Himself, which gendered no corruption of sin. For the sinner, indeed, makes this confession: My wounds stank, and were corrupt, because of my foolishness. But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin and the Holy Ghost inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold." Hippolytus, Fragments from the Scriptural Commentaries of Hippolytus, [A.D. 235]"

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one" (Origen, Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (St. Ambrose, Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

"Now with the exception of the holy Virgin Mary in regard to whom, out of respect for the Lord, I do not propose to have a single question raised on the subject of sin -- after all, how do we know what greater degree of grace for a complete victory over sin was conferred on her who merited to conceive and bring forth Him who all admit was without sin -- to repeat then: with the exception of this Virgin, if we could bring together into one place all those holy men and women, while they lived here, and ask them whether they were without sin, what are we to suppose that they would have replied?" (St. Augustine, Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

There are others as well.

13 posted on 03/20/2011 3:29:40 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Markos33
Read what you just wrote, again. When and where is Mary removed from the curse of Adam?

I read it quite carefully. What does *in view of" the merits of Jesus Christ mean, if not before it?

She was "removed" from the curse of Adam at conception. Although removed is a bad word..."prevented from assuming" the curse of Adam would be better.

God is not bound by time as well you know.

14 posted on 03/20/2011 3:38:05 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud

Well said Claud.

Mary did need a Saviour. And she got one: her Son.


15 posted on 03/20/2011 3:45:35 AM PDT by agere_contra (Whenever a Liberal admits to something: he is covering up something far worse)
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To: Claud

None of your evidence is from the Word of God. You seem to put more faith in men than in God’s Word.

That is a mistake, brother. :-)


16 posted on 03/20/2011 3:47:25 AM PDT by alnick
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To: Claud
"She was "removed" from the curse of Adam at conception. Although removed is a bad word..."prevented from assuming" the curse of Adam would be better."

Mary never doubted God?

17 posted on 03/20/2011 3:48:20 AM PDT by Semper Mark (Vlad Tepes was a piker.)
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To: Claud
"She was "removed" from the curse of Adam at conception.

Well, let's see the Biblical proof?

Her father, and his father and so on, must have been better than the rest of us.

No, wait a minute...that would lead us back to Adam.

Silly me, what am I thinking.

18 posted on 03/20/2011 4:05:55 AM PDT by Semper Mark (Vlad Tepes was a piker.)
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To: alnick

Got a Greek New Testament handy? Open up to Luke 1:28. The Angel says to Mary “Kaire (Hail), kecharitomene”. Look up kecharitomene. It’s a perfect passive participle based on the word charitoo, “to bestow grace”. It literally means “she-who-has-been-completely-graced”. The perfect tense in Greek is used for completed actions. Actions that are finished.

Now think about the implication of that. The bestowing of grace of Mary was complete. Finished. if she had sin in her, how is that possible?


19 posted on 03/20/2011 4:08:15 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
None of these are writers and none of their writings are the Scriptures “in the original”.

The idea of an immaculate conception for Mary is not found in the Scriptures. period.

20 posted on 03/20/2011 4:09:43 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: alnick
The Word of God depicts the Angel Gabriel coming to Mary and saying 'Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with you'.

The phrase 'Full of Grace' is the correct English translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of the greek word that means 'to fill or endow with grace.'

This term is in the perfect tense. It doesn't mean 'be filled with Grace' nor 'you are currently filled with Grace' but rather 'You are filled and have always been filled with Grace'. In much the same way that we would call Mary female, or human, she is and always has been 'Full of Grace'.

Gabriel calls her kecharitomene. This word, used by Gabriel, denotes a permanent state of being. It therefore signifies an innate quality of Mary.

Hope this is helpful.

21 posted on 03/20/2011 4:10:10 AM PDT by agere_contra (Whenever a Liberal admits to something: he is covering up something far worse)
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To: Claud
I don't believe it matters how Mary was conceived, and I'm surprised that men waste their time considering it.

God spoke and then He followed through. Period. The whole deal about original sin is taken out of context. Show me a newborn that has sinned and that will be condemned to Hell if he dies a few seconds after birth. David sinned and the Bible said he died sin-free; God can do all things and we will not be able to figure it all out no matter how we try. Just as you have to be of an age and mental maturity to truly give yourself to Jesus, you also have to be capable of understanding sin and the ramifications before God sees it as sin.

Anyone who tries to tell me a priest can ensure Heaven for someone who otherwise would go to Hell needs to read the Bible as it is and not with a bunch of religious "add-ins" and try to figure out where it says that. If you follow the Bible, you don't need religion. If you want religion, fine, but the Bible itself is enough to ensure salvation if one heeds the message. Silly men try to act as if they can understand all that He is and does and they have to inject a lot of guess work into the equation - that can't be entirely good when the Bible is so clear. Even as Paul said it was his opinion and not a Divine imperative that priests be celibate (or married to one woman if they couldn't be celibate), religion required celibacy. While the Bible says to call no earthly man "Father", because you have but one Father who resides in Heaven, we have a religion that calls its priests "Father" and even "Hly Father". The Pharisees were mocked by Jesus because they considered themselves holier than thou and the Bible does not tell us to elevate our teachers, but to ensure they are of good character.

I do not condemn any religion because I know that many souls have been led to Christ through the some 33,000 or so sects of Christianity. I merely point out that the 33,000 sects all have differing interpretations and rules that can be likened to those that were accused of "falling from Grace" because they wanted to continue circumcision and other rituals which had been designed to prove their worthiness - they forgot that Jesus died so we could stop the vain attempts to be worthy and rest in our salvation because of His worthiness.

22 posted on 03/20/2011 4:19:19 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: Markos33
Her father, and his father and so on, must have been better than the rest of us.

No, not at all. Sometimes people argue Mary HAD to be immaculately conceived because she could not transmit "sinful genes" to Christ. But of course the counterargument was just what you said--no, because then you'd have to say the same about Ss. Joachim and Ann, right on back to Adam.

Our Lady's Immaculate Conception was a singular privilege granted by God, because it was a fitting thing to do for the mother of the Redeemer. The original wooden Ark was so holy that you would die if you touched it. Should the new Ark who carried God Himself be a creature under Satan's grip?

On the Biblical justification, see my post 19.

23 posted on 03/20/2011 4:20:37 AM PDT by Claud
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To: trebb

I don’t want to stray too far off topic. But let me say that I am wary of any arguments that involve us throwing up our hands and saying “why waste your time....religion has gotten too complicated.”

We wouldn’t tolerate a pilot saying that about flying, or a surgeon saying that about human anatomy. Not everyone needs to be an expert in theology. But even side issues can be important and lead us to important discoveries about ourselves and the nature of God.


24 posted on 03/20/2011 4:33:44 AM PDT by Claud
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To: count-your-change
The idea of an immaculate conception for Mary is not found in the Scriptures. period

Post #19. Luke 1:28.

25 posted on 03/20/2011 4:34:52 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
"Our Lady's Immaculate Conception was a singular privilege granted by God, because it was a fitting thing to do for the mother of the Redeemer."

As I asked in the post you replied to: "...let's see the Biblical proof?"

26 posted on 03/20/2011 4:49:32 AM PDT by Semper Mark (Vlad Tepes was a piker.)
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To: Claud
I appreciate your caution about not delving into topics that are complex. I just get tired of folks pondering on a mish-mash of data, then asserting that they have solved the riddle. In may cases, they take a topic that really doesn't matter and then push it as an imperative. I am wary of Satan's ability to cloud the issues and to divert folks from what's really important. Accept Jesus as your Savior, Love God with everything you are, Love your neighbor as yourself. Because where there is love, there is no harm and that fulfills the intent of all the Commandments. Other than the data necessary to get to that point, everything else pales in importance.

I wonder that churches get invilved in politics - Jesus told us to resist not evil - we can't stop it and He will handle it when the time comes. I believe we would be more useful to simply reach out to carry His Word, in the simple Bible format, to give others the best opportunity to be saved.

27 posted on 03/20/2011 4:53:48 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: Claud

“Now think about the implication of that. The bestowing of grace of Mary was complete. Finished. if she had sin in her, how is that possible?”

The word “charitoo” has nothing to do with sin or being free of sin, it simply means to be favored, honored with blessings, shown undeserved kindness, as at Eph. 1:6 so with Luke 1:28. See Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon.

The idea of an immaculate conception for Mary is not found in the Scriptures. period


28 posted on 03/20/2011 4:54:22 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Claud
You are truly desperate in defending the indefensible.

Put your faith in Christ. He is the true and only high priest for us all, not Mary or any other who cannot be what Christ was and is - completely human and completely God.

God could have chosen any vessel into which He would place His spark. That only makes her honorable, not perfect or Christ would not have been fully human and fully God.

There are many in the Bible whom we could make into pseudo-redeemers by torturing the text used to describe them, but we don't because they simply were not God.

Neither was Mary.

29 posted on 03/20/2011 5:01:17 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne (Buy Gold and Guns Now!)
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To: count-your-change
Ot-oh! Lessee; Jesus' mother is Mary and his father is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Jesus' human flesh and blood is Mary's and Mary's alone.

So, if she was a sinner....her flesh was... her blood was... corrupt, and so that means Jesus' was too.

Oh, darn. somebody better call a news conference...

30 posted on 03/20/2011 5:05:08 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (You is what you am.)
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To: Dr. Thorne

That’s a straw man argument. Nobody claimed that Mary is a redeemer, pseudo- or otherwise. Claud certainly didn’t.

Gabriel said that Mary was Full of Grace.

How can someone be Full of Grace unless they are without sin?

How can someone be Full of Grace unless they are perfect?

This doesn’t mean that Mary is God. No-one is saying that. But she was and is perfectly human. She is what we were meant to be in Eden: human and without sin.

Her perfect humanity means that her Son is also fully human - as well as being fully God. You state something to the effect that if Mary were perfect, then Christ could not be. Forgive me: I’m not sure that you’ve thought that syllogism through.

God did this for Mary: he made her Full of Grace. He will also do this for the rest of us: He will make us fully human, which is to say we will be humans, but without sin. Mary is not our redeemer - that would be a bizarre and wrong concept - but she is the first example of redeemed humanity. Moreover: she gave us Our Redeemer.

Hope this is helpful.


31 posted on 03/20/2011 5:42:40 AM PDT by agere_contra (Whenever a Liberal admits to something: he is covering up something far worse)
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To: Claud; newguy357

I believe that was a reasonable application of a logical argument. I’ll state it slightly differently to show the manner to which it would apply here:

“Find one example where the early church fathers wrote that there were NOT little green men on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri. You won’t find one, good luck. Therefore, it is clear that the early church fathers did NOT believe that there were not little green men on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri”.

Your original argument, voiced in the positive, only shows that the early church fathers did not see fit to argue one way or another about whether Mary was emaculately conceived. It does not show that they didn’t believe, or that they did believe.

A positive argument would be to note the arguments of those who claimed the Bible taught the emaculate conception of Mary.


32 posted on 03/20/2011 5:57:38 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: count-your-change

I’m reading Verbum Domini by Pope Benedict XVI this Lent and this is the passage I just came to. Its on pages 14 and 15 of the online version I’m reading. It’s posted in several different formats online for free.

27. The Synod Fathers declared that the basic aim of the Twelfth Assembly was “ to renew the Church’s faith in the word of God “. To do so, we need to look to the one in whom the interplay between the word of God and faith was brought to perfection, that is, to the Virgin Mary, “ who by her `yes’ to the word of the covenant and her mission, perfectly fulfills the divine vocation of humanity “. The human reality created through the word finds its most perfect image in Mary’s obedient faith. From the Annunciation to Pentecost she appears as a woman completely open to the will of God. She is the Immaculate Conception, the one whom God made “ full of grace “ (cf. Lk 1:28) and unconditionally docile to his word (cf. Lk 1:38). Her obedient faith shapes her life at every moment before God’s plan. A Virgin ever attentive to God’s word, she lives completely attuned to that word; she treasures in her heart the events of her Son, piecing them together as if in a single mosaic (cf. Lk 2:19,51).

In our day the faithful need to be helped to see more clearly the link between Mary of Nazareth and the faith-filled hearing of God’s word. I would encourage scholars as well to study the relationship between Mariology and the theology of the word. This could prove most beneficial both for the spiritual life and for theological and biblical studies. Indeed, what the understanding of the faith has enabled us to know about Mary stands at the heart of Christian truth. The incarnation of the word cannot be conceived apart from the freedom of this young woman who by her assent decisively cooperated with the entrance of the eternal into time. Mary is the image of the Church in attentive hearing of the word of God, which took flesh in her. Mary also symbolizes openness to God and others; an active listening which interiorizes and assimilates, one in which the word becomes a way of life.

28. Here I would like to mention Mary’s familiarity with the word of God. This is clearly evident in the Magnificat. There we see in some sense how she identifies with the word, enters into it; in this marvellous canticle of faith, the Virgin sings the praises of the Lord in his own words: “ The Magnificat — a portrait, so to speak, of her soul — is entirely woven from threads of Holy Scripture, threads drawn from the word of God. Here we see how completely at home Mary is with the word of God, with ease she moves in and out of it. She speaks and thinks with the word of God; the word of God becomes her word, and her word issues from the word of God. Here we see how her thoughts are attuned to the thoughts of God, how her will is one with the will of God. Since Mary is completely imbued with the word of God, she is able to become the Mother of the Word Incarnate “.

Furthermore, in looking to the Mother of God, we see how God’s activity in the world always engages our freedom, because through faith the divine word transforms us. Our apostolic and pastoral work can never be effective unless we learn from Mary how to be shaped by the working of God within us: “ devout and loving attention to the figure of Mary as the model and archetype of the Church’s faith is of capital importance for bringing about in our day a concrete paradigm shift in the Church’s relation with the word, both in prayerful listening and in generous commitment to mission and proclamation “.

As we contemplate in the Mother of God a life totally shaped by the word, we realize that we too are called to enter into the mystery of faith, whereby Christ comes to dwell in our lives. Every Christian believer, Saint Ambrose reminds us, in some way interiorly conceives and gives birth to the word of God: even though there is only one Mother of Christ in the flesh, in the faith Christ is the progeny of us all. Thus, what took place for Mary can daily take place in each of us, in the hearing of the word and in the celebration of the sacraments.


33 posted on 03/20/2011 5:58:17 AM PDT by Mercat ( I remain nestled in cognitive dissonance)
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To: count-your-change
She did not remain a virgin all her life, either:

Mt 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

34 posted on 03/20/2011 5:59:13 AM PDT by RaceBannon (RON PAUL: THE PARTY OF TRUTHERS, TRAITORS AND UFO CHASERS!!!)
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To: PrepareToLeave

So the Mary-God needed a Savior??


35 posted on 03/20/2011 6:00:36 AM PDT by RaceBannon (RON PAUL: THE PARTY OF TRUTHERS, TRAITORS AND UFO CHASERS!!!)
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To: count-your-change; NYer; Salvation

The doctrine
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”

“The Blessed Virgin Mary...”
The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.

“...in the first instance of her conception...”
The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

“...was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin...”
The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam — from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

“...by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race.”
The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ’s redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Such is the meaning of the term “Immaculate Conception.”

Proof from Scripture
Genesis 3:15
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: “and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel” (Genesis 3:15). The translation “she” of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. The conqueror from the seed of the woman, who should crush the serpent’s head, is Christ; the woman at enmity with the serpent is Mary. God puts enmity between her and Satan in the same manner and measure, as there is enmity between Christ and the seed of the serpent. Mary was ever to be in that exalted state of soul which the serpent had destroyed in man, i.e. in sanctifying grace. Only the continual union of Mary with grace explains sufficiently the enmity between her and Satan. The Proto-evangelium, therefore, in the original text contains a direct promise of the Redeemer, and in conjunction therewith the manifestation of the masterpiece of His Redemption, the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

The Bible, as the inspired recorded of revelation, contains the word of God; that is, it contains those revealed truths which the Holy Ghost wishes to be transmitted in writing. However, all revealed truths are not contained in the Bible (see TRADITION); neither is every truth in the Bible revealed, if by revelation is meant the manifestation of hidden truths which could not other be known. Much of the Scripture came to its writers through the channels of ordinary knowledge, but its sacred character and Divine authority are not limited to those parts which contain revelation strictly so termed. The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration. It was declared by the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) that the sacred and canonical character of Scripture would not be sufficiently explained by saying that the books were composed by human diligence and then approved by the Church, or that they contained revelation without error. They are sacred and canonical “because, having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that have God for their author, and as such have been handed down to the Church”. The inerrancy of the Bible follows as a consequence of this Divine authorship. Wherever the sacred writer makes a statement as his own, that statement is the word of God and infallibly true, whatever be the subject-matter of the statement.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm


36 posted on 03/20/2011 6:01:42 AM PDT by ADSUM (Democracy works when citizens get involved and keep government honest.)
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To: ADSUM

Go back up and read my post 33 re Verbum Domini. Congrats on your Badgers although being from Kansas even though I’m a Jayhawk I had to root for the Cats.


37 posted on 03/20/2011 6:07:50 AM PDT by Mercat ( I remain nestled in cognitive dissonance)
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To: Claud
Lk 1:28 And2532 the angel3588, 32 came in1525 unto4314 her,846 and said,2036 Hail,5463 [thou that art] highly favoured,5487 the Lord3588, 2962 [is] with3326 thee:4675 blessed2127 [art] thou4771 among1722 women.1135

Lk 1:28 καὶ2532 εἰσελθὼν1525 πρὸς4314 αὐτὴν846 ὁ3588 ἄγγελος32 εἶπεν·3004 χαῖρε,5463 κεχαριτωμένη,5487 ὁ3588 κύριος2962 μετὰ3326 σοῦ.4771 kai eiselthōn pros autēn ho aggelos eipen khaire kekharitōmenē ho kurios meta sou

G5487 χαριτόω (kharitoō)
- to grace, i.e. indue with special honor;

Etymology: from G5485;
KJV: make accepted, be highly favoured.

No, it doesn't say she was completely Graced.

38 posted on 03/20/2011 6:08:54 AM PDT by RaceBannon (RON PAUL: THE PARTY OF TRUTHERS, TRAITORS AND UFO CHASERS!!!)
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To: count-your-change

I understand the idea that Mary needed to be sinless. However, its possible that theologically speaking that Mary is blameless because of how the OT reports God dealt with Adam and Eve. A close reading of the scripture shows that only Adam was thrown out of Eden. Eve apparently went along with him but only Adam was made to leave.


39 posted on 03/20/2011 6:10:27 AM PDT by Raycpa
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To: count-your-change
The bestowing of grace of Mary was complete. Finished. if she had sin in her, how is that possible?”

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

RCC doctrine denies that the word ALL means ALL apparently

40 posted on 03/20/2011 6:12:32 AM PDT by RaceBannon (RON PAUL: THE PARTY OF TRUTHERS, TRAITORS AND UFO CHASERS!!!)
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To: Claud; Markos33
If Mary was free from sin, why did she say
"And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in
God my Savior."
?

Why did Mary need a savior?

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Now either Mary was born into sin, as Romans 5:12 states and thus NEEDS a savior-which SHE HERSELF claimed. Romans 5:18 states
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Or by being immaculatly conceived, like Christ, as you are claiming, she is without sin-but then, would be without sin. Then her claim for needing a savior would be wrong.

If Mary DID need a savior, as she stated, but was immaculately conceived as you stated, then the very same standard applies to Jesus, who was then LIKEWISE immaculately conceived BUT then ALSO born into sin, who would then also require a savior.

So either Christ is different from Mary,and not requiring a savior, or he is the same as Mary, requiring a savior.

Now, if Jesus is considered by birth to a woman to be man, but being conceived by the spirit, by nature be God. Then the very same applies to Mary, if she were as you claim, immaculately conceived. Mary would be born of a woman be man (human), but being conceived of God, by nature be God.

Thus, if Mary were by her very nature God also, would Christ be God BOTH through Mary and the Holy Spirit? Thus eliminating man from his lineage.

But Luke gives us Jesus' lineage through Mary and Jesus' lineage through Joseph. The two lineages converge at David-But through 2 different sons. Joseph comes through the line of Solomon, heir to the kingdom, thereby making Jesus, heir to the kingdom. But Mary comes from the lineage of Nathan, through blood.

Now what is interesting when you read of the lineages of Mary and Joseph, in Joseph's lineage, Rahab, Bathsheba and Ruth are mentioned. A harlot, an adulterer and a Moabite.

BUT... in Mary's lineage, not one woman is named. Just who the father and son is.

If Mary was immaculately conceived, would not HER MOTHERS lineage need to be known, just as her lineage was needed for Jesus? But the Bible does not give us Mary's mothers lineage, just her fathers.

So IF Mary was immaculately conceived, why post her lineage through her father and not her mother also???

41 posted on 03/20/2011 6:24:05 AM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: Claud

Show me you quotes from 50 ad that support your claim, please...


42 posted on 03/20/2011 6:36:11 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (.)
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To: mountn man
The reason Catholic's insist on Mary's Sinlessness, is that she is their Savior - not the Lord Jesus Christ!

The Ubi Primam of 1849 States "For, God has committed to Mary ... every hope, every grace, and all salvation." This is on the Catholic Website: http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9ubipr2.htm

But know there is Salvation in no one else but the Lord Jesus Christ. Turn away from the worship of Mary and believing Salvation is in her. She would say to you "Do everything he (The Lord Jesus Christ) says. And the Lord Jesus Christ said "That you believe in He" (the Lord Jesus Christ) "whom He" (God the Father) "has Sent".

Believe upon Christ Alone. Christ plus anything else is not Salvation.

43 posted on 03/20/2011 6:42:18 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Claud
Christian writers or SCRIPTURE?

I'll take scripture. And the only help needed here is the Holy Spirit to give you eyes to see and ears to hear.

You need it.

Hoss

44 posted on 03/20/2011 6:46:05 AM PDT by HossB86 ( NOBODY admits to being a Calvinist unless they are one. I AM ONE.)
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To: Claud

Saving someone from the ditch, or even saving them from going into to the ditch is no comparison to everlasting life, nor eternal salvation!

You know, and I know, our Lord Jesus came to seek and to
save that which is lost. He came to save sinners.

“For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.”
(John 3:17)

NOW THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (That is the Gospel)

Mary was saved the same way every sinner is saved! By the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ, that is his death on the cross.

For He(God)made Him(Jesus)to be sin for us, who had no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.”
(2 Corinthians 5:21)


45 posted on 03/20/2011 6:49:03 AM PDT by LetMarch (If a man knows the right way to live, and does not live it, there is no greater coward. (Anonymous)
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To: Claud
She was "removed" from the curse of Adam at conception.

Care to provide scripture, chapter and verse, that states this?

Hoss

46 posted on 03/20/2011 6:49:50 AM PDT by HossB86 ( NOBODY admits to being a Calvinist unless they are one. I AM ONE.)
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To: Claud
The idea of an immaculate conception for Mary is not found in the Scriptures. period

Post #19. Luke 1:28.

Fail. That is eisegeted by Rome, not exegeted from scripture.

Try again. Hint: you won't find it in scripture.

Hoss

47 posted on 03/20/2011 6:54:49 AM PDT by HossB86 ( NOBODY admits to being a Calvinist unless they are one. I AM ONE.)
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To: trebb

Point (and points) very well made! We all are in error when we get to teaching or preaching any thing apart from God’s message.

Like: “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

“Let this mind be in you, was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:” (Philippians 2:5-9)


48 posted on 03/20/2011 7:06:59 AM PDT by LetMarch (If a man knows the right way to live, and does not live it, there is no greater coward. (Anonymous)
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To: the invisib1e hand

What ARE you talking about?


49 posted on 03/20/2011 7:22:41 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ADSUM

Thank you, I read all that but saw no need to post it.


50 posted on 03/20/2011 7:28:06 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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