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Rev. Franklin Graham: Japan Quake May Be Beginning Of Second Coming....
Real Clear Politics ^ | March 18th, 2011

Posted on 03/20/2011 2:34:25 PM PDT by TaraP

Natural disasters 'escalating like labor pains' may be linked to the return of Jesus, says Rev. Franklin Graham. In an exclusive Newsmax.TV video, the evangelist says the end could come in 2012 or later.

*escalating birth pains*

(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: earthquake; endtimes; eschatology; franklingraham; japan; rapture; secondcoming; tribulation
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To: ReverendJames; TaraP

>> What do you think the Arab countries would do?<<

Read Ezek 38-39 to find out.


151 posted on 03/20/2011 5:31:15 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
I have no preconceived notions. Thank you. Twelve times twelve equal the 144,000 spoken of in The Revelation of John and who are. When you start getting literal reading Revelations you'll get yourself twisted up in allegories. Nobody has yet figured out what really is going on with lots of the imagery and numbers and scenarios. Better scholars than you or me over the centuries have tried.

Revelation 7:4 mentions that the 144,000 were taken out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, but in the verses that follow, mention is made of the tribe of Levi and the tribe of Joseph. These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.

152 posted on 03/20/2011 5:40:30 PM PDT by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: TaraP

First the Rapture, then the Tribulation, then the Second coming.


153 posted on 03/20/2011 5:46:00 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: CynicalBear

I know. But until Israel signs a peace treaty with her enemies ......


154 posted on 03/20/2011 5:50:33 PM PDT by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: mdmathis6

But then it’s their idea not what scripture says. All the times the Temple was rebuilt after its destruction it was always on the same spot.


155 posted on 03/20/2011 5:51:59 PM PDT by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: ReverendJames
One very huge problem though. No one not you or me knows the day or hour of Christ return and like another poster I see The Return Of Christ for the Bride and His Second Coming as a separate events. The first taking place from the heavens with a shout {a trumpet blast not to be confused with the ones in The Revelation but rather this one in custom with wedding tradition or the Last Trumpet saying bring forth the bride} and the Second Coming to earth as Christ feet on the ground earth.

OK how can you reconcile the fact that in The Bible in Daniel ch 12 we are told the very day Christ is to return? If we're here we'll have 7 years warning actually. We would know because The Bible says so. Those are literal days not symbolic ones that represent weeks months etc.

If the believers and dead in Christ all being The Bride are called up with His Shout from the heavens those who would know scripture are no longer here or would be blinded to it. Still no one would know the day or hour because they did not believe. Yes some who are left here will come through the Tribulations a small number likely.

When Noah went into the Ark people were being given in marriage till that very day. Marriages in The Biblical accounts are festive events lasting days. Times of joy and happiness and celebration. In the Great Tribulation weddings won't likely be happening most likely but rather a focus on survival.

GOD called Noah out and into the Ark before passing judgment. He called Israel out of Egypt before passing judgment. He called Lot before that out of Soddom and Gomorrah simply for Abrahams sake. Why doubt Christ will call out His Bride The Church? Yes if we are indeed intended to remain and live through it He will still be with us. But will His Bride face the Judgement upon earth in the Tribulations?

The percicuted you speak of will indeed be rewarded in heaven. Now remember the parable Christ told of the man who hired workers and paid them all the same paying the man he hired last first and the man he hired first he paid last the same wages? What was the answer? The workers who were hired first thought it unfair right?

Matt ch 20
13“He answered one of them, ‘Friend, I haven’t been unfair! Didn’t you agree to work all day for the usual wage? 14Take it and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you. 15Is it against the law for me to do what I want with my money? Should you be angry because I am kind?’ 16“And so it is, that many who are first now will be last then; and those who are last now will be first then.”

One event ignored by most churches likely set the irreversible terminal clock and picked the generation to see Christ Return. May 11, 1949 is likely the most prophetic day in history since the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Israel reborn in a day and recognized as a nation by the world. Those who are old enough to see it may well be the last generation or rather meaning their generation shall not pass until all prophecy is fulfilled.

The next event might be the Temple construction in a physical sense or that may be a spiritual revival in Israel to worship The GOD of Abraham followed afterward by a demand from Islamic nations forcing the worship of Islam upon Israel.

Israel's signing of the treaty with the antichrist which our leaders have been so bent on obtaining and the last several presidents almost forcing Israel to sign the wretched treaty starting with Carter IIRC will start the final clock and from that point you know the very day.

There is every reason to think Christ will call out His Bride on the command of His Father before the tribulations begin.

156 posted on 03/20/2011 5:53:01 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: TADSLOS; xzins
One of these days someone is going to hit the big prophesy lottery and be right for once.

Jesus said he would come at a time "when you think not". Therefore when anybody predicts when Jesus will return, they are wrong.

157 posted on 03/20/2011 5:53:01 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: TaraP
Nothing has failed..
Have people been wrong about dates and times of Jesus return? yes, they were not looking for him when he came...

Maybe I haven't communicated clear enough the problem. The claim is that we are expected to be aware of the "signs". The "signs" in question are events that have gone pretty much uninterrupted since the days of Noah. We have always had wars, famines, and plagues except for this generation which ironically is possibly the only generation that has not seen war, famines and plagues. Yet the events of today, tiny and insignificant in view of history are claimed by nearly all Dispensationalists to be THE "signs" that our LORD was allegedly thinking of nearly two-thousand years ago. So signs of "wars", which we have none; signs of "famines", which we have none, and signs of "plagues" which we have none, are sure "signs" of the End.

And you don't find this the least bit troubling in the very obvious cognitive dissonance? That is, there aren't wars and so we declare riots and rebellions to be "wars" - and by gratuitously calling it a "war" and a "sign" that is somehow different and a greater "sign" than The Great War and World War II.

In regards to the "wrong dates and times", that is a bit disingenuous because people like Hal Lindsey tied a specific date (e.g. 1988) to a specific teaching. When Tim LaHaye's "forty years" since the Balfour Declaration failed, Hal Lindsey said that a "generation in the Bible is forty years" and because of that fact, our LORD would return prior to 1988 which is forty years since the secular nation Israel was recognized by the United Nations. IOW, Lindsey didn't just pull the number out of a hat, there was specific theology that demanded it would be in 1988.

He wasn't alone, Edgar C. Whisenant wrote the infamous "88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988" where his date setting was allegedly based on interpreting Prophecy from the Bible. His date was not a function of "we have more earthquakes so therefore it should happen in the next few years" which would be the acceptable mistake of getting the date wrong because the date would be speculating on an event based on trends. Whisenant and Lindsey weren't speculating on trends or "birth pangs/pains" but supposedly on Dispensational hermeneutics applied to Scripture. The date was integral to the whole of the Prophecy, not a feeling of when it could happen.

If anything, Whisenant and Lindsey, under a true Scriptural analysis, would be written off as false prophets since the date setting was integral to the overall prophecy. Stated differently, Lindsey and Whisenant were convinced that it had to occur before 1988, not 1989 or anytime later, but had to be before 1988, with very strong hints towards it being on Rosh Hoshanna of 1988.

Granted the number of kooks who are marking a specific day on the calendar shouldn't be considered representative of the sect of Dispensationalism, but almost all Dispensationalists are calling today's non-signs, "signs" and are saying that these [non]"signs" are without a doubt the very specific "signs" of tomorrow's return.

Since these events are non-signs or regular (9.0+ earthquakes though relatively rare do occur several times in the span of a generation, and there have been many generations who have seen 9.0+ earthquakes)what makes these events special and different from similar but greater events from the past?

158 posted on 03/20/2011 5:53:36 PM PDT by The Theophilus (Pray for Obama (Psalms 109:8))
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To: ReverendJames

The arab nations will attack and the Israeli’s will hit all of their countries with nukes(Psalms 83? prophecy). This will precipitate a crisis of the gravest order and might precipitate the Ezekiel invasion event with world wide judgments delivered by God himself . On the other hand the Bible says that many jews see the hand of the Lord in these events and will come to know him as well as many gentiles as well... at least if one reads Ezekiel.


159 posted on 03/20/2011 5:53:59 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: mdmathis6

In any event, we’re living in pretty interesting times. But then, our parents did, and their parents did and their parents ... and so on.


160 posted on 03/20/2011 5:55:50 PM PDT by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: MsLady
Nicolae Carpathia - the "Anti-Christ" in the Left Behind series.
161 posted on 03/20/2011 6:01:33 PM PDT by newfreep (Palin/West 2012 - Bolton: Secy of State)
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To: TaraP
But, as the time drew nigh, THE BELIEVERS KNEW the exact day before the fact!

It doesn't say that. The clue that believers are going to have when that day happens is when they see along with everyone else the sign in the heavens of the coming of the Son of Man from one end of the earth to the other. The only difference is that it will be exactly what they were looking forward to and awaiting.
162 posted on 03/20/2011 6:10:28 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: ReverendJames

Herod’s temple kind of sprawled all over the place on the the temple mount...including what is known as the wailing wall...so pick a spot.. the third temple will be rebuilt somewhere no doubt on the temple mount. There is no direct biblical quote that says the third temple will sit exactly in the same place as the Mosque of Omar(that is evangelical eschatological tradition, not biblical quotation)....there is also no direct quote that it won’t sit there either as you say, there might be a great earth quake. I maintain that all conditions have been met for the building of the temple other than the Lord’s timing

I read Daniel, it mentions the temple but not its final location only that the son of Perdition commits the final Abomination of Desolation( historically there had been one by Antiochus and one by the Romans but the one by the Beast is what brings God’s hammer down setting up Armageddon!) there after causing the sacrifices to cease.


163 posted on 03/20/2011 6:11:37 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: The Theophilus
"The signs" you are referring to here, do you believe that there has not been earthquakes, before this last year? That is, everything that you claim to be a sign is nothing compared to a not-so-long-ago comparable event. The Japanese earthquake, though devastating, is not the most severe (e.g. Indonesia '94 9.3; Alaska '64 9.2)

Indeed, in 869 a basically identical earthquake to the latest one struck Japan, and in 1896 22,000 people were killed in Northern Japan by a quake somewhat smaller than the recent quake. The World didn't end after either one.

Today, there is no war, at least not as described in Matthew 24 where the "wars and rumors of wars", the word is for a traditional "war" - 'polemeo'.

Indeed, per population, the world is almost certainly more peaceful now than it's ever been in world history; wars between nation-states are virtually non-existent; all there is are civil wars and insurgencies. While what violence that does exist gets flashed around the world on a million cable channels, a lot of long-term bloody conflicts have ended fairly recently - Colombia, Sri Lanka, etc. Ironically the single bloodiest conflict in the world right now, the Congo, gets no media attention at all.

164 posted on 03/20/2011 6:13:31 PM PDT by Strategerist (There is only so much stupidity one man can prevent - Andrew Marshall)
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To: mdmathis6

I figure that Daniel didn’t have to mention location since it was a forgone conclusion it would be built on the same site as all the Temples have been. It’s like saying that Israel didn’t have to be where it used to be, the Jews could have gone to some other place, close say, and started up a country there. But see, it wouldn’t be in the original place where Israel existed before and therefore wouldn’t really be Israel. Just saying.


165 posted on 03/20/2011 6:16:21 PM PDT by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: TomGuy

Jean Dixon once predicted **bedbugs in boston**, she was way ahead of her time..


166 posted on 03/20/2011 6:17:47 PM PDT by goat granny
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To: mdmathis6
The arab nations will attack and the Israeli’s will hit all of their countries with nukes(Psalms 83? prophecy).

Is this bait-and-switch?

Up until the riots, the bad-guys who were supposed to be invading Israel was Gog and Magog which your teachers claim is Russia. What part of the Bible changed so its no longer Gog and Magog, but now "arab nations", which incidentally, is NEVER stated in any prophecy for any time to be an invader of the political nation of Israel?

On the other hand the Bible says that many jews see the hand of the Lord in these events and will come to know him as well as many gentiles as well.

I know its fun to speculate, but for good speculation, you need at least something to be a basis in fact. For two thousand uninterrupted years, Jews have hated Jesus Christ, and our LORD says to hate Him is to hate God. Throughout the Old Testament, when Jews were against God, He smacked them down until Repentance. Here you suggest that God changes His ways so that He rewards them while they are still in their rebellion and hatred of His son. To suggest that God acts in this manner means that He acts contrary to the Covenant made with Moses - you may remember: "Choose you this day who you will serve", such where they choose to worship God, they receive blessings, otherwise curses. So far secular Israel is deeply immersed in the culture that receives curses.

Furthermore, when Hitler and his boys were shoving Jews into ovens by the millions there wasn't this literal "Come To Jesus" revival among the Jews. If merciless genocidal slaughter didn't do it then, what has fundamentally changed to make the threat rather than reality of it change today? Remember, the last two times the Arab world has tangled with the Israelis, it was overwhelmingly one-sided victory - and still, there was no recognition that this win was by God and thus no revival. Again, when the empirical evidence clearly proves the opposite, why do you place utmost confidence in fantasy over reality?

And lets not play the "The Bible Sez So" game, because the overwhelming majority of genuine believers, many of whom have a much stronger and comprehensive understanding of the Scriptures than the Hagees and Lindseys of this world, read and have read Ezekiel far differently than the relatively new-comer Dispensationalist interprets it.

167 posted on 03/20/2011 6:20:30 PM PDT by The Theophilus (Pray for Obama (Psalms 109:8))
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To: TaraP
But, as the time drew nigh, THE BELIEVERS KNEW the exact day before the fact!

Furthermore, Jesus said even he didn't know the day or the hour, much less any believer, only the Father.
168 posted on 03/20/2011 6:25:41 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: ReverendJames

What was so prophetic about the times before 1947?


169 posted on 03/20/2011 6:39:05 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: aruanan

So what *Season* and generation do you think Jesus was speaking about, that would see his return?


170 posted on 03/20/2011 6:41:44 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: P-Marlowe

So you believe no one can understand the *Season* that signals the return of Jesus Christ? because he said that we would, and he does not lie.


171 posted on 03/20/2011 6:47:06 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: The Theophilus; GiovannaNicoletta; TaraP
what is it going to take for y'all to finally come to your senses and realize that Dispensationalism is a failed eschatological system; or are y'all so invested in anxiety, fear and impending doom that abandoning the "crack cocaine" of Dispensationalism will give you withdrawals that you can't overcome?

Let me respond to this loaded question with one that is more in keeping with a group of Born Again Christians discussing Scripture. Is God done with Israel?

If you think so how do you reconcile that with Scripture?

Rom. 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

172 posted on 03/20/2011 6:58:22 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: TaraP

Well and accurately put.

Thx.


173 posted on 03/20/2011 7:01:41 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Absolutely indeed.


174 posted on 03/20/2011 7:02:34 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: cva66snipe

1948


175 posted on 03/20/2011 7:05:14 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: ReverendJames

Ezek 38-39 happen before the peace treaty is signed.


176 posted on 03/20/2011 7:06:11 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: The Theophilus

WRONG

AGAIN.

So many silly notions from one source. Amazing.


177 posted on 03/20/2011 7:07:49 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: TaraP

178 posted on 03/20/2011 7:08:17 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: TaraP

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least...the wrold is going into the crapper so fast I can barely maintain my balance. So many evil people out there...


179 posted on 03/20/2011 7:08:17 PM PDT by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: TaraP
The end of the Age is the Church..Once the church is removed then the *Wrath of GOD* comes upon the earth...

The last days started on or around the advent of Jesus.
180 posted on 03/20/2011 7:09:25 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: wmfights

I don’t ever recall a REPLACEMENTARIAN et al answering that Scripture forthrightly . . . much less remotely adequately.


181 posted on 03/20/2011 7:10:06 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
I don’t ever recall a REPLACEMENTARIAN et al answering that Scripture forthrightly . . .

I know in my case it opened my eyes and I started rethinking my views. Scripture is powerful.

182 posted on 03/20/2011 7:14:10 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Cvengr

Love it.


183 posted on 03/20/2011 7:21:29 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: wmfights

INDEED. PRAISE GOD.

And Scripture is all the more powerful when there are eyes to see and ears to hear digesting it.


184 posted on 03/20/2011 7:22:30 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: P-Marlowe

Agreed, He shows when he shows. Like Elvis, without the tassles.


185 posted on 03/20/2011 7:26:27 PM PDT by TADSLOS (Tea Party. We are the party of NO! NO to more government! NO to more spending! NO to more taxation!)
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To: Quix

Thanks!

Good to hear from you Quix!


186 posted on 03/20/2011 7:28:40 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: aruanan

I’m talking about the *Season*..What season is Jesus speaking about in Matthew 24?


187 posted on 03/20/2011 7:29:56 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP

THX THX.

Likewise. Feeling much better. Still some distance to go before full functioning. Thanks for all your caring and prayers.


188 posted on 03/20/2011 7:32:04 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
And Scripture is all the more powerful when there are eyes to see and ears to hear digesting it.

I'm with you Brother!

It can be difficult to accept a view that you've held for a long time is wrong. On the plus side, I believe a lot of people start searching Scripture in search of answers about the end times and in the process become Born Again.

189 posted on 03/20/2011 7:32:04 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: newfreep

Ahhh, never read it. I know it’s based on the bible and prophecy, but, I rather read real life books and studies on the bible and biblical prophecy :)


190 posted on 03/20/2011 7:34:53 PM PDT by MsLady (Be the kind of woman that when you get up in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
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To: wmfights

It can be difficult to accept a view that you’ve held for a long time is wrong.

QX: ABSOLUTELY INDEED. Try making that happen with a long dysfunctional married couple!

On the plus side, I believe a lot of people start searching Scripture in search of answers about the end times and in the process become Born Again.

QX: ABSOLUTELY INDEED AGAIN. Have long used prophetic Scriptures and current events in just that way—to significant effect.


191 posted on 03/20/2011 7:35:28 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: ReverendJames
The tribe of Dan will be rejected by God as part of the 144,000 and will be used by God to bring judgment upon Israel and the unbelieving world. Several obscure prophecies in the Bible point to the fact that the tribe of Dan will produce the Antichrist. The Tribe of Dan was involved in a substitute worship system at Mt. Hermon/Sion that was both opposed to and removed from the true worship of God at Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

I haven’t really studied the tribe of Ephraim to any extent but among the causes which operated to bring about the disruption of Israel was Ephraim's jealousy of the growing power of Judah. Epharim’s numbers and influence had declined because of contentions with other tibes.

The descendants of Joseph formed two of the tribes of Israel, which included Ephraim and Manasseh so Joseph may have replaced Ephraim as the tribe name.

These contributed, imo, to the exclusion of them in the 144,000.

192 posted on 03/20/2011 7:37:47 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Quix

Good to hear your feeling better Quix. I know my wife and I felt pretty rough for a while. We’re now back planting garden and getting the chicken coop ready.


193 posted on 03/20/2011 7:41:33 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Quix

Really both 1948 & 1949 Israel was formally accepted into the United Nations in 1949 but the declaration of statehood was 1948. I used 1949 because of world recognition.


194 posted on 03/20/2011 7:53:35 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: TaraP; xzins

If you say Jesus is coming back Friday, then I know for a fact that he isn’t. I’ve got the authority of scripture on that. He will come at a time when you think not. And YOU are the target of that prophecy. And so am I.


195 posted on 03/20/2011 7:58:33 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Again..Jesus speaks about a *Season* did GOD inform Noah about the time that he would destroy the earth? yes...Noah was not sitting on the Ark with no idea when the rain would start....Jesus told us when the *Season* would happen, he told us about the *Signs* we know the Season, well at least some do....


196 posted on 03/20/2011 8:03:42 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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To: TaraP; xzins

How long is a season? Christians have been falsely prophesying the retun of Jesus for 2000 years and every one of them pointed to the same kinds of signs and seasons. Trust me, the world was a much scarier place in 1939 than it is today. When the world starts looking worse than it did in 1940, then you can start making your end of the world prophesies. Right now it just ain’t that bad. And since I don’t think Jesus is going to return tonight, then maybe he will.


197 posted on 03/20/2011 8:14:12 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: TaraP

My girlfriend from 1971 and Jesus Hernandez, who was deported back to Mehico this past Friday, will come back sooner than your Jesus!


198 posted on 03/20/2011 8:22:52 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: wmfights; GiovannaNicoletta; TaraP
Is God done with Israel?

In the sense that Dispensationalists view "Israel": yes.

In the other senses of "Israel": no"

One of Dispensationalism's many faults is the deliberate division of the Church into two separate entities under two different Covenants - the Bride of Christ is considered a "parenthesis", a footnote of sorts in the Grand Scheme. As you know, this idea is resoundingly rejected by everyone else in Christendom. The Orthodox view of "Israel" is that the Law shows the inadequacy of works-righteousness and the need for a one-time sacrifice to make atonement for all sins. The Judaic system, being absent Christ, has no viable mechanism for atonement with God. David, the Prophets and others of Faith believed in a coming Savior, are arguably the first Christians of the Bible - Able being the first of us all.

When the Temple Veil was torn in two, we saw the sign of the Promise that became real at Pentecost; made since the Garden; repackaged for Abraham was the expansion of spiritual Israel from the Elect Jews to now people of all nations and tongues on earth. In other words, the true Israel is both Jews and Gentiles who hold the same faith as Abraham in our LORD Jesus Christ. This, I believe is "The Mystery" revealed. In that sense, God is no where near finished with "Israel" but will continue to gather in the harvest of the Gentiles, along with ethnic Jews until the last Gentile named in the Book of Life is redeemed.

From this point, people vary on what happens next. The two primary camps are: God is done, the harvest is complete, our LORD returns to Judge the Earth. The other camp believes, to some extent, that there will be a mass revival of ethnic Jews then the Parousia.

Personally, I am OK with either view since we know that ethnic Jews find salvation yesterday, today and likely tomorrow, so it isn't like ethnic Jews had this huge inrush in the first century, have been excluded since then and will be like a dam burst of conversions shortly before the LORD returns, though one can argue successfully that such a dam burst is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans 11.

With some creative symbolism, I can argue that the Parable of the Ten Virgins has a double fulfillment, not only warning ethnic Jews to the 70AD destruction (which it clearly is doing); but because of the implied Bride element must also find its composite fulfillment in the Parousia. This is typical Amillennial Here/Yet templating and may or may not be appropriate here. I recognize that.


The Parable of the Ten Virgins

Not to make a big deal out of the number ten, it is generally understood to mean "more than a few" and many consider it a number representing completeness. My campfire story works better if it does indeed mean completeness, so lets say that ten represents that.

The Virgins must be ethnic Jews because throughout the Scriptures, the nation of Israel is likened to a virgin or harlot in terms of her spiritual station. The idolatry of other nations isn't called harlotry, but when the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob participate in the same idolatry of other nations - they get the Scarlet Letter. Thus for the sake of the analogy, Virgins are exclusively ethnic and practicing Jews who are not believers in Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior.

The number five has symbolic meaning, but it isn't necessary here, five in conventional phrasing means a group of indeterminate size, which to me in this story is important since trying to discern the proportions of one group or the next is discouraged by using five (yes, it could mean exactly half, but I doubt it).

The Bride isn't mentioned but it is pretty clear what the Bridegroom is set about to do, the absence of the Bride I think has amillennial importance because the Bride is inconsequential to a quick exit from Judea when the Roman armies set siege and began the Great Tribulation. The Bride is integral to a Future prophetic interpretation which is what I am feebly trying to explain here. Thus, for this picture, the Bride is the Church of all believers in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles.

I strongly believe that this meeting of the Bride and Bridegroom is the Parable equivalent of what Paul is describing in the famous "rapture" passage of 1 Th 4:17. Because of the large number of ethnic Jews (virgins) who are assumed to be part of the party, this Parable, to me is that point in Romans 11:25 in nexus with 2 Peter 3:9 where all of the Elect Gentiles have been redeemed, there is no longer any point or apparent purpose for our LORD to tarry further, and thus according to Peter's words, He now comes to unite the universal Church and Judge the Earth.

But what about Romans 11:25? If the Jews came to faith in the exact same manner as Able, Noah, David, you and me, then they would be counted as the Bride in Christ (after all, Paul, a Jew, considered himself to be the part of the bride of Christ). This which follows, I admit, is HEAVY in speculative theology, but makes for a good campfire story.

So the picture is this: The fullness of the Gentiles has come about, the traditional means of salvation have filled the storehouses with the harvest of the wheat, all that remains now is the tares and the "ten virgins". The ten virgins are waiting for the Bridegroom so that they may enter in to the party. I submit that this is those few religious Jews who believe in a Messiah, but up until they see the Bridegroom, do not accept Jesus Christ as that Messiah spoken of by the Prophets.

The word picture spoken of in the Parable talks of a slumber that is similar to that sort of sleep you have when you know you need to wake up at a certain time but don't have the alarm set so you drift off to sleep only to keep waking up a few minutes later each time to check the time to see if you can get a bit more sleep worked in. This, in my opinion, is the same sort of care and concern that today's Jews have the Messiah. Its pretty low on the priority list, not talked about much, and certainly not perseverated on.

The oil is universally understood to be Grace. Those who do not have the Grace of our LORD at the time of His return are those who head off to the world to find their fulfillment and wisdom, yet at midnight, they will not find anyone who will provide them with Grace they need, and those who do have their lamps full cannot distribute the Grace God has given them.

So the Bridegroom comes, a loud "cry" goes out. This could very well be the Trumpet of God, the Shout of the Archangel that is not the cosmic dog whistle that only Dispensationalist Rapturenauts will hear and respond to, but this is the one and only return of Christ where He brings together all of the Elect. Those ethnic Jews who did not respond to the Gospel call by their Christian neighbors, who have the Grace given to them by God and remain to recognize the visible return of our LORD will see the exact same Jesus Christ that saved the Church. They will respond to the exact same Jesus Christ that is the only way to salvation by recognizing then that this is the one David and the Prophets were talking about.

Whereas the Church, made up of both ethnic Jews and Gentiles over the millennia came to Christ by regeneration, faith, repentance and baptism (of the spirit), those five virgins will in an instant be regenerated, recognize the Victorious LORD as their Messiah and that flood of ethnic Jews will complete the Church of Jesus Christ at that time.

So, in a very long-winded way, I hope I answered your loaded question in a satisfactory manner. I cover the issue of who is Israel (in three manifestations), the Romans 11:25 question, the Parousia, and how it all ties together.

Returning to the original objection I made to those who are claiming seeing "signs" that conclusively argue that we are that lottery winning generation, I submit that there is only one true sign of our LORD's return.

In John 6:39 (and elsewhere) we know that the Father determines who Jesus will save. The Father, since eternity past (Ep 1:4) chose who Jesus would save, therefore only the Father would know all whose name is found in the Book of Life. In conjunction with the Paraclete who regenerates and sanctifies, the fullness of the Godhead works together to build the Church. When the disciples queried our LORD as to when He would return He answered "not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only" This is perfectly consistent with John 6. Now tie 2 Peter 3:9 in which is directly related to our LORD's return and we learn that this "millennium" we are living in is the time of the Harvest, our LORD is patient and longsuffering as He waits for the Father and the Paraclete to prepare for Jesus His bride. When the fullness of the Gentiles is then complete, the Father presents to Jesus the Bride and then as we read in Revelation 21, the "New Jerusalem" or the "Bride of Christ" is presented to our LORD, the ethnic Jews who were awaiting the Victorious Christ come to saving faith, and we all live happily ever after.

So the only "sign" of the LORD's return is when the Last of the Elect has been Redeemed. No sooner, and not much later.

The End

199 posted on 03/20/2011 8:27:37 PM PDT by The Theophilus (Pray for Obama (Psalms 109:8))
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; Quix

When Jesus stated in Matthew 24:

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

*This would of not of made much sense to the generations before the one that started the *Prophetic Clock* in 1947-Israel....

The Clue is found in Daniel when it speaks of how communication and knowledge would increase.....

Most *Generations* before our’s had no idea what was going on in there next city, let alone across the oceans..

DANIEL 12:4
But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

It’s just the last 120 yrs, we have shed our communications of Horse and Buggy...


200 posted on 03/20/2011 8:28:04 PM PDT by TaraP (An APPEASER is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last)
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