Skip to comments.Cessationism Refuted [i.e. Gifts & Operations of HS Stopped at End of Rev]
Posted on 03/21/2011 5:09:22 PM PDT by Quix
My good friend, Charles Carrin, as a Baptist pastor for more than twenty-five years, was much like Apollos before Priscilla and Aquila took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately (Ac. 18:24-26). Like Apollos, he was an eloquent man and he was mighty in the Scriptures, he had been instructed in the way of the Lord in Baptist schools, was fervent in spirit, and was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, meaning the Gospel of Christs sacrifice. However, Charles, like Apollos and myriad other sincere and fervent traditional denominational ministers today, was acquainted only with the baptism of John, the original Baptist.
This simply was the way it was for this very eloquent and learned Bible scholar and teacher for nearly three decades of service as a Baptist pastor, until one day when, in the midst of severe trial and spiritual dryness and emptiness, he had a personal encounter with the Holy Spirit, and despite all his refutations, protestations, and contrarian beliefs, was thoroughly IMMERSED or BAPTIZED in both the water and the fire of the Holy Spirit! Himself and his theology were forever changed! From that day forward, cessation theories for Charles Carrin were thoroughly expunged from his theology, but more importantly, from his personal relationship with the God-Head. From that day forward, he had no more questions regarding the reality of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, no not one!
After nearly eighty years of living and over sixty in the Kingdom, Charles has come to some specific conclusions concerning what the Spirit says in the Word of God about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as well as the Dunamis-Power of God unto supernatural manifestations of the Spirit throughout the Church Age. This learned and articulate servant of God in this article does a masterful job of refuting the wholly indefensible cessation theories espoused by so many denominations and so-called fundamentalists today, who, unfortunately, continue to invalidate the Word of God by their traditions.
KINGDOM FAITH OR KINGDOM FICTION WHICH IS IT?
By Charles Carrin
The New Testament gospel is powerful, eternal, perpetually true. Two thousand years after its presentation to the world it is still relevant, unabridged, unchallengeable. When Charles Spurgeon was asked how he defended the gospel, he replied, I dont defend the gospel any more than I would defend a lion. I just open the cage and let it out.
Jesus called His message the gospel of the Kingdom. That message has never been, nor will ever be changed. Nor will it become a gospel of the church. The Kingdom knows no failure. The Kingdom is triumphant, victorious, all-conquering. The Kingdom is permanent, unchanging. The Kingdom needs no such excuse. To absolve herself of blame.
The church is subject to great failure. The church is schismatic, self-indulging, unreliable. The church is temporal, justifies herself and vindicates her failures. The church has invented an escape-hatch called Cessationist Theology. This pleasant sounding expression declares that God has withdrawn the Holy Spirits miraculous power from the church. The church has a book the Bible and little more than that. We have no power because God has removed it. The fault is not ours.
Much of modern, evangelical Christianity is a parallel of the ministry of Apollos. It is sincere, eloquent, accurately teaching Bible truth as far as it allows itself to believe. But its doctrine is measured by its own opinionit is afraid to measure its doctrine by Scripture.
Dispensationalism the claim that miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit passed away dominates traditional Christianity. Jesus said there would be no such change. Hear His words: All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen. Matthew 28:20. Jesus fully expected the church at the end of the age to believe and teach all things that He had commanded the original disciples.
The Apostle Jude did not believe the cessationist claim. Instead, he presented one of the New Testaments strongest defenses for the gospels unalterability. He said, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). The once for all in our English Bibles comes from a valuable little Greek word, hapax. In spite of its small size hapax carries significant authority. It means: one, a single time, conclusively, absolutely all, every one.
This hapax-expression appears at least eight times in the Greek New Testament. It is translated once for all five times in the New King James Version. Three additional times the New International Version translates it as once. In every instance hapax establishes the unchangeability of its subject. Six of the references below apply directly to Jesus, one applies to the believer, and the final one to Kingdom faith. In four instances in the Greek text the preposition epi (upon) is added to reinforce the once for all meaning.
The Hapax Scriptures
1. Romans 6:10. For the death that Jesus died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
2. Hebrews 7:27. Who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the peoples, for this Jesus did once for all when He offered up Himself.
3. Hebrews 9:12. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood Jesus entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
4. Hebrews 9:26-27. He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
5. Hebrews 10:2-3. For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
6. Hebrews 10:10. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
7. 1 Peter 3:18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
8. Jude 3. Beloved I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
To which of these hapaxonce for all passages are you willing to apply Cessation Theology? Would your theology be complete if any of the once for all references were removed from the work of Jesus? Would you like any of these subjects to be vulnerable to change? Are you genuinely glad that they are hapax once for all secure? If so, it is impossible for you to endorse Cessationist Theology. You cannot accept the works of Jesus as hapax and then deny the Holy Spirit the same respect in His maintaining hapax in the permanency of Scripture. You cannot do it and uphold integrity with the Word!
Modern Christianity has convinced itself that Jesus provided two distinct gospels and two distinct faiths one for the first century church and one for those who followed after. The first was miraculously empowered; the second was not. The first had the baptismal gift of the Holy Spirit; the second was merely given a book telling what the Holy Spirit had achieved in the past. Hear the truth: Jesus provided everyone past, present, future with a faith which was hapax-true, hapax-strong, hapax-forever.
The fact is this: Whether you and I accept it or not, the original faith that was once for all delivered to the saints is still intact. It is unaltered. In a conclusive, unchangeable way the faith of the Apostolic Era was delivered for all time intact to every subsequent generation. There will never be another.
Someone argues, But I have never seen the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit in my church! True. But the fault lies with the church, not with God. The contemporary church is a victim of its own unbelief. It has created its blighted condition.
Observe that the Apostle Jude said he:
1. Found it necessary
2. To exhort you
3. To contend earnestly
This agrees perfectly with Jesus instruction in Matthew 28:18-20 that believers to the end of the age be taught to observe all things that I have commanded you (the original disciples). Then, as if to emphasize the unchangeability of the gospels time-span, He said, Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Observe the expression all things. What did He mean by that expression? Scripture does not leave us to wonder. Matthew 10:7-9 makes it very plain: As you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. When He said, teach them all things to the end of the age, this is what He meant.
The obvious message is that the gospel and the faith arising from it have been permanently given one time and will never be given again. That initial provision is sufficient once for all time and once for all people. In an emphatic way, this says that New Testament faith, doctrinally and experientially, as it was originally presented by the Holy Spirit, is unchangeable. It cannot be added to or taken from. Any cessationist claim otherwise is a hoax. Such an accusation insults the Cross and the work of the Holy Spirit (cf., 2 Peter 1:21).
Even so, the idea is rampant in modern Christianity that parts of the Covenant-Book which Jesus ratified by the sprinkling of His blood (Hebrews 9:11-15), have lost validity. This supposedly occurred at the death of the Apostle John in 70 a.d., or when the New Testament books were canonized into one volume in a.d. 367.
The truth is, modern Christians have invented that monstrous idea. We have done so because we do not want accountability for our own failures. If we can justify the absence of Gods miraculous presence by claiming He withdrew it from us, we dont have to accept blame for our having withdrawn ourselves from Him.
The Bibles Example
The Book of Acts gives us a working model of a conscientious, godly pastor who preached a powerless gospel. Like many today, Apollos was pastor of a small, struggling congregation. He was faithful, loved God, served the congregation, but was totally bereft of power. While he was away from his home at Ephesus, Paul came and found his church of 12 male disciples with wives and children. In spite of Apollos having excellent credentials for ministry, Paul immediately recognized powerlessness in the mans flock. Both Paul and Apollos were servants of God, both equally loved the church, and each possessed vast knowledge of Scripture. Even so, a major discrepancy existed between their ministries. Paul had power; Apollos did not. Paul preached the gospel of the Kingdom; Apollos obviously knew nothing about it.
In light of the Apostle Judes exhortation to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints, we see how Apollos though innocent of any evil intent had accepted a partial gospel and experienced partial results. The ministries of Paul and Apollos are a parallel of pastors and churches today. I emphasize the fact that Apollos was ignorant because he had never been taught not because he had knowingly rejected the truth. In our day pastors fall into two groups: Those who have never been taught and are innocently ignorant of spiritual gifts and those who willfully reject spiritual gifts. Carefully observe these seven facts which Scripture records about Apollos:
1. He was a Jew.
2. An eloquent man.
3. Mighty in Scripture.
4. Instructed in the way of the Lord.
5. Fervent in spirit.
6. Taught accurately the things of the Lord.
7. But: He knew only the baptism of John that is, he knew nothing about the Baptism in the Spirit. He had a partial gospel and a partial faith.
When Paul recognized spiritual-powerlessness in the Ephesians, he asked the all-revealing question, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? They responded, We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit. This tragic ignorance existed because Apollos knew only the baptism of John. He knew nothing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and had left his congregation in that same condition. Paul immediately instructed the Ephesians about the Holy Spirits empowering and when he laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. That event proved to be a cataclysmic change not only for Ephesus but for the rest of the Roman world.
Under Apollos ministry, the church at Ephesus accomplished absolutely nothing to awaken the city. It demonstrated no Kingdom power, remained spiritually paralyzed, and except for the local Synagogue, its presence was virtually unknown. In that state, the congregation had no effective witness, made no impact on the people, was no threat to powers, principalities, rulers of the darkness of this world, etc. Instead, the dark cloud of paganism gripped the land with unchallenged control. The Temple of Diana or Artemas already famous as the greatest of all Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, dominated the area. It was in the shadow of this formidable enemy that this minuscule church, ineffective and unknown, lay dormant.
That changed when Paul arrived. When he came on the scene, Ephesus experienced a Kingdom of God earthquake. Paul was not the power but he was the instrument for the truth that produced the shaking. He merely provided the window through whom the power roared; Apollos and twelve other windows were already present in Ephesus but they had never been opened.
Jesus Said The Scripture Cannot Be Broken
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law*, I said, You are gods? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him. Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. (John 10:34-40) [*Psalm 82:6]
Jesus reminded the Jews that it was David not Himself who first wrote about God miraculously empowering the saints. Those fortunate ones to whom the word of God comes are so changed and endowed that in the eyes of the demonic-world in a comparative sense they become gods (with a little g). Simply stated, Jesus intended the saints to exercise power over the demonic realm (cf., Luke 10:19).
It was Jesus who said The Scripture CANNOT be broken. That means that the New Testament is still intact. No part is out-dated and it cannot be victimized by cessationist teaching. In believing it we open ourselves to receive a miraculous imparting of its word. Those to whom the word of God comes are changed from ordinary humanity into extraordinary humanity. The word of the Lord came to Abraham, Samuel, Nathan, Gad, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Haggai, Zechariah, John the Baptist, the first disciples, others. All of these experienced transformation when the word of God came to them. This is the only sensible explanation for the explosive growth of Christianity in the Roman world.
What Happens Today When The True Word of God Comes With Power?
1. Psalm 107:19-20. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
2. Matthew 8:16-17. When evening had come, they brought unto him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with His word, and healed all who were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, He Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.
3. Luke 4:31-36. Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. And in the synagogue there was a man, who had a spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know you who you are the Holy One of God. But Jesus rebuked him, saying, Be quiet and come out of him. And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him, and did not hurt him. Then they were all amazed, and spoke among themselves, saying, What a word is this! For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out.
4. Acts 2:40-41. And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation. Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that about three thousand souls were added unto them.
5. Titus 1:1-3. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of Gods elect, and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began; But has in due times manifested his word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior.
6. I John 2:4-6. He who says, I know him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him: By this know we that we are in him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (The Word is already perfected, so what is being perfected? The one who receives the word.)
7. Luke 1:38. Mary was impregnated when she told the angel, Be it unto me according to your word.
8. Matthew 4:4. Jesus said: But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
9. Matthew 24:35. Jesus said: Heaven and earth shall pass a way but My words will by no means pass away.
10. God the Father said: My Covenant I will not break nor alter the Word that is gone out of my lips. Psalm 89:34.
11. John 17:8. Jesus said to the Father: For I have given to them (the disciples) the words which You have given Me, and they have received them .
12. I Peter 1:25. Peter said: But the word of the Lord endures forever. Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
13. II Peter 1:21. Peter said again: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
14. II Timothy 3:16. Paul said: Be diligent rightly diving the word of truth. II Timothy 2:1. Paul said again: All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable.
15. Galatians 1:8. Paul said once more: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
16. Psalm 119:89. David said: Forever, O Lord, Your Word is settled in Heaven.
If you are one of those believers whose Cessationist Theology denies the integrity of Scripture or the Holy Spirits miraculous gifts, stop it! You are on the losing team! You are on Gods opposing team!
Kingdom faith is fact, not fiction! Hapax once for all.###
Apr 23, 2009
CHARLES CARRINS ministry spans the final half of the twentieth century. He was ordained in 1949 and in his youth traveled with men who preached in the 1800′s. For the first twenty-seven years of his ministry, Charles was a hyper-Calvinist Baptist pastor and Presbyterian seminarian who denied the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit. Mid-way in his ministry that abruptly changed. Personal crisis forced him to acknowledge Scriptures he had previously ignored. It was a time of intense pain and testing. The truths he saw were frightening; they had power to destroy his denominational ministry and at that point he had no hope that another, more wonderful ministry awaited him. As a result of his submitting to God in that crisis, Charles emerged with an amazing anointing of the Holy Spirit. Today, his ministry centers upon the visible demonstration of the Spirit and imparting of His gifts. This new ministry has taken him to Londons Westminster Chapel, the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, and other significant places. He, R.T. Kendall, the former, 25 year pastor at Westminster Chapel, and Jack Taylor, former Vice President of the Southern Baptist Convention, travel together holding Word, Spirit, Power, Conferences. As an evangelist/writer, Charles articles have appeared in major Christian magazines in the United States and abroad. He travels extensively, teaching believers how to operate in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Charles Carrin Ministries
[Used by emailed permission from Dr Steven Lambert]
"Dispensationalism" as used in the following paragraph in the article above--is NOT how we typically use it on FR and in Christianity at large.
========================================================= Dispensationalism the claim that miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit passed away dominates traditional Christianity. Jesus said there would be no such change. Hear His words: All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen. Matthew 28:20. Jesus fully expected the church at the end of the age to believe and teach all things that He had commanded the original disciples.
Pentecotsals are Dispensationalists--believing that history is broken up into different DISPENSATIONS, ERAS, AGES wherein God tends to have a different focus or emphasis in His dealings with man.
While cessationism might be refuted, unfortunately cornpone fakery became its kissing cousin.
END TIMES PING LIST PING TO
a very good refutation of CESSATIONISM.
Let the games begin.
. . .
Wellllllllllll, it appears that until Armageddon anyway,
fools, the poor and fakers are likely to be with us.
I don’t see that any different from Jesus’ dusty pathed days.
However, one thing it was NOT about was that there would be Prophets of the Old Testament ilk or Apostles of the New Testament sort.
There will be small p prophets and small a apostles (or missionaries) in the Church, but no modern prophet will have the same anointing as the Old Testament or Old Covenant provided for.
Nor will there be missionaries or apostles like the Twelve in the church.
This is why Paul writes that the church is built upon the FOUNDATION of
The (Old Testament) Prophets and the (New Testament) Apostles, with Christ as Chief Cornerstone...
this foundation has already been laid. So there is no need for Old Time Old Covenant Prophets, who were the only ones with the Holy Spirit, during the time when only the Jews had a chance to have their sins washed away in the Temple.
Nor will there be a need for any new modern apostle to be like any of the Twelve Apostles.
Plus, of course, no modern prophet or apostle will ever WRITE the Word of God, nor can any one of us ever be EYEWITNESSES in the FLESH of Christ's ministry on earth.
Just needed to be clear, that while the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the church today, those positions filled by the heroes of the faith cannot be positions now for anyone in the church because Scripture is sealed.
I think this is the problem with the Lou Engle counterfeits and Elijah List liars. They want all the pomp and circumstance of the Old Testament positions, when it is not theirs to have! (No wonder God sent a deluding spirit on them and they can't prophesy their way out of a paper bag.)
And the irony is, the same Scofiled who preached cessationaism also provided the basic paradigms that fortune-tellers use today to undercut the goodness, power, and gospel of or King and His Kingdom.
Silly dodge . . .
obviously for the hard-up for a dodge
from the good Biblical; well reasoned article.
“Let the games begin.”
Alas, it is true. The Free Republic Religion threads have become games. I have for the most part lost interest.
I somewhat agree.
1. I believe that the office of prophet has changed. Folks are not taken on the back-side of the desert for 3-40 years for purification before beginning ministry.
2. As noted in I Cor 14 . . . utterances are to be vetted, discerned, weighted, authenticated by the local body.
3. There’s no evidence of a stoning policy.
4. I suspect that God did have a unique role in mind for the NT Apostles.
5. Nevertheless, GOD IS SOVEREIGN—HE CAN raise up anyone after the fashion and model of an OT prophet any time HE wishes. I don’t know that He will—but it’s somewhat plausible. The TWO WITNESSES of the Tribulation period might well fit—but then, they’d be returning!
6. I much agree that the relentlessly ballyhooed Apostle UmpTeeUmp and Bishop/Prophet/Apostle Parade-About
are more than a little nauseating and too little on deilvering the pure goods.
7. Nevertheless, IT IS GOD’S HABIT, HOBBY, NATURE . . . to use HIS foolishness to confound man’s wisdom. And, to use rather uncomforting birds of rare plumage as His spokespersons. . . . and . . . on occasion, to lavish them with gifts and attention getting status or roles.
8. Thankfully, I’m not God and don’t want to judge His servants. I’m not their manager nor even their vallet or driver.
9. However, I’m not at all bashful about noticing the stink when some PURPORTED such waltz by.
10. And, I’m not at all bashful about informing some who may have started well, that their halo has fallen into the mud.
Actually, it’s a pathetic dodge well beneath someone of your IQ.
Understandable . . .
however, with FR having 1.2 million unique visitors/month . . .
and some of my threads having 12,000—16,000 and more views . . .
I think the games are worth playing. And, some of the most heated threads seem to attract the most readership.
I guess no one enjoys a boring ball game.
With the mess this world is in, the idea that we do not need the gifts of the Holy Spirit is comical. It’s not the Lord’s fault that we’ve dropped the ball.
Not ALL people speak in tongues; (1 Cor. 12:7-11) and that was one of the things about the Charismatic movement back in the 1970’s that put a lot of people under. However, for those who have experienced speaking in tongues; it is real. Much how to use it, I do not know.
INDEED. WELL PUT.
Yes, Quix, read through your reply, having an eye especially for all the first person pronouns, whether personal or possessive. This is what disheartens me.
Modern American “Christianity” has been called “psycho-therapeutic deism” for the individual. Sadly, it is.
PLENTY true about a lot of Christianity.
A lot of VERY BAD COMMUNICATION begins with
“You . . . .
“You are . . .
“You make me . . .
“You made me . . .
Some of us have a LOT of training making
“I-statements” to counter the dysfunctional horrors of the above.
It is more honest, honorable, accurate, fitting
to own one’s opinions, feelings and perspectives with an “I-statement.”
And, I’ve rarely observed that avoiding “I-statements” succeeded in preventing arrogance, smugness, self-righteousness etc. in prose. It slips in plenty easily with or without “I . . . “ “My . . . “ etc.
At least with straightforward “I . . . “ statements . . . one is more likely to own what they are saying; take responsibility for their ideas, feelings, perspective.
I see that as good.
However, feel free to read into my “I-statements” whatever
HOLY SPIRIT encourages you to do so with.
Congrats on the Charismatic part!
I’ve never owned nor followed anything from Schofield.
“PLENTY true about a lot of Christianity.”
No, Quix, plenty true of ALL Christianity. And always has been. What is true of all others of fallen Adam’s race is true also of me. Otherwise, like the Pharisee in the temple, (Luke 18:9-14) I despise others and count myself righteous. I am not.
I feel no obligation to respond to the rest of what you say. Sorry.
The gifts of the Spirit were imparted first to the Apostles, without regard to their belief in those gifts, or their worthiness to receive. All were to receive the gifts of the Spirit.
So how could a lack of those gifts in the Church today be a sign that the church doesn't believe in them, or isn't worthy of them? Wouldn't that itself be a "change" in the gifts, which the author argues could not be changed?
I'm an agnostic about the gifts. At most, I am willing to accept that where they are necessary, God is still capable through the Spirit to manifest those gifts. I do not believe they are normal, or expected, amongst the church believers. My argument isn't ecclesiastic though, but more logic -- I believe there are way too many certain Christians who are certainly doing God's work who have no manifestation of these gifts to believe that the gifts are expected to be manifest in all. As I said, not very spiritual; I call it the Billy Graham rule.
But also, how to explain how the gifts would fall away if they were not intended to? The early church clearly believed in the gifts, and used them, and welcomed them, and probably even expected them. What would cause them to turn to disbelief in the gifts, assuming the author is correct and you can lose the gift through lack of belief that they can happen?
We have disbelief now because we don't see the gifts. How would we develop disbelief in an era where the gifts were the norm?
I'll admit I pretty much settled my pursuit of this issue back in my college days. I did spend a good deal of time on it, with questionares, studies, and visits with pentecostal churches and pastors. I was unconvinced then.
Yes, there is now, that the Holy Spirit is not hidden behind the curtain in the Holiest of Holies, but it is freely given to man...
there is now for those in the church gift positions that are unique.
But as for Jewish Old Testament Prophets being a sign for the errant Jews when they sinned... etc., this is a position that no longer exists.
Same with the 12 Eyewitness Apostles.
Plus of course, in the Old Testament, if you were not Jewish, not sure what your status would be.
I guess part of the reason Dante wrote his stuff was to try to explain were Aristotle, Plato and other non Jews born before Jesus went.
The Cross is the apex of ALL history. It is so interesting to think how everyone’s life changed spiritually, once the Holy Spirit was suddenly freely available to every one... Jew, Gentile etc.