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Cessationism Refuted [i.e. Gifts & Operations of HS Stopped at End of Rev]
http://www.charlescarrinministries.com/ [Partially] ^ | 28 FEB 2010 | Charles Carrin & Steven Lambert

Posted on 03/21/2011 5:09:22 PM PDT by Quix

On February 28, 2010, in Charismatic Gifts, False teaching, Real Truth, by admin

My good friend, Charles Carrin, as a Baptist pastor for more than twenty-five years, was much like Apollos before Priscilla and Aquila “took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately” (Ac. 18:24-26). Like Apollos, he was “an eloquent man…and he was mighty in the Scriptures,” he “had been instructed in the way of the Lord” in Baptist schools, was “fervent in spirit,” and “was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus,” meaning the Gospel of Christ’s sacrifice. However, Charles, like Apollos and myriad other sincere and fervent traditional denominational ministers today, was “acquainted only with the baptism of John,” the original Baptist.

This simply was the way it was for this very eloquent and learned Bible scholar and teacher for nearly three decades of service as a Baptist pastor, until one day when, in the midst of severe trial and spiritual dryness and emptiness, he had a personal encounter with the Holy Spirit, and despite all his refutations, protestations, and contrarian beliefs, was thoroughly IMMERSED or BAPTIZED in both the water and the fire of the Holy Spirit! Himself and his theology were forever changed! From that day forward, cessation theories for Charles Carrin were thoroughly expunged from his theology, but more importantly, from his personal relationship with the God-Head. From that day forward, he had no more questions regarding the reality of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, no not one!

After nearly eighty years of living and over sixty in the Kingdom, Charles has come to some specific conclusions concerning what the Spirit says in the Word of God about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as well as the Dunamis-Power of God unto supernatural manifestations of the Spirit throughout the Church Age. This learned and articulate servant of God in this article does a masterful job of refuting the wholly indefensible cessation theories espoused by so many denominations and so-called “fundamentalists” today, who, unfortunately, continue to “invalidate the Word of God by their traditions.”

KINGDOM FAITH OR KINGDOM FICTION — WHICH IS IT?
By Charles Carrin

The New Testament gospel is powerful, eternal, perpetually true. Two thousand years after its presentation to the world it is still relevant, unabridged, unchallengeable. When Charles Spurgeon was asked how he defended the gospel, he replied, “I don’t defend the gospel any more than I would defend a lion. I just open the cage and let it out.”

Jesus called His message the “gospel of the Kingdom.” That message has never been, nor will ever be changed. Nor will it become a gospel of the church. The Kingdom knows no failure. The Kingdom is triumphant, victorious, all-conquering. The Kingdom is permanent, unchanging. The Kingdom needs no such excuse. To absolve herself of blame.

The church is subject to great failure. The church is schismatic, self-indulging, unreliable. The church is temporal, justifies herself and vindicates her failures. The church has invented an escape-hatch called Cessationist Theology. This pleasant sounding expression declares that God has withdrawn the Holy Spirit’s miraculous power from the church. The church has a book — the Bible — and little more than that. We have no power because God has removed it. The fault is not our’s.

Much of modern, evangelical Christianity is a parallel of the ministry of Apollos. It is sincere, eloquent, accurately teaching Bible truth as far as it allows itself to believe. But its doctrine is measured by its own opinion–it is afraid to measure its doctrine by Scripture.

Dispensationalism — the claim that miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit passed away — dominates traditional Christianity. Jesus said there would be no such change. Hear His words: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:20. Jesus fully expected the church “at the end of the age” to believe and teach “all things” that He had commanded the original disciples.

The Apostle Jude did not believe the cessationist claim. Instead, he presented one of the New Testament’s strongest defenses for the gospel’s unalterability. He said, “I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). The “once for all” in our English Bibles comes from a valuable little Greek word, “hapax.” In spite of its small size hapax carries significant authority. It means: “one, a single time, conclusively, absolutely all, every one.”

This hapax-expression appears at least eight times in the Greek New Testament. It is translated “once for all” five times in the New King James Version. Three additional times the New International Version translates it as “once.” In every instance hapax establishes the unchangeability of its subject. Six of the references below apply directly to Jesus, one applies to the believer, and the final one to Kingdom faith. In four instances in the Greek text the preposition “epi” (upon) is added to reinforce the “once for all” meaning.

The Hapax Scriptures

1. Romans 6:10. “For the death that Jesus died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.”

2. Hebrews 7:27. “Who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this Jesus did once for all when He offered up Himself.”

3. Hebrews 9:12. “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood Jesus entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

4. Hebrews 9:26-27. “He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

5. Hebrews 10:2-3. For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.

6. Hebrews 10:10. “By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

7. 1 Peter 3:18. “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

8. Jude 3. “Beloved … I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.”

To which of these hapax–”once for all” — passages are you willing to apply Cessation Theology? Would your theology be complete if any of the “once for all” references were removed from the work of Jesus? Would you like any of these subjects to be vulnerable to change? Are you genuinely glad that they are “hapax” — “once for all” — secure? If so, it is impossible for you to endorse Cessationist Theology. You cannot accept the works of Jesus as hapax and then deny the Holy Spirit the same respect in His maintaining hapax in the permanency of Scripture. You cannot do it and uphold integrity with the Word!

Modern Christianity has convinced itself that Jesus provided two distinct gospels and two distinct faiths — one for the first century church and one for those who followed after. The first was miraculously empowered; the second was not. The first had the baptismal gift of the Holy Spirit; the second was merely given a book telling what the Holy Spirit had achieved in the past. Hear the truth: Jesus provided everyone — past, present, future — with a faith which was hapax-true, hapax-strong, hapax-forever.

The fact is this: Whether you and I accept it or not, the original “faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” is still intact. It is unaltered. In a conclusive, unchangeable way the faith of the Apostolic Era was delivered for “all time” intact to every subsequent generation. There will never be another.

Someone argues, “But I have never seen the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit in my church!” True. But the fault lies with the church, not with God. The contemporary church is a victim of its own unbelief. It has created its blighted condition.

Observe that the Apostle Jude said he:

1. Found it “necessary”

2. To “exhort you”
3. To “contend earnestly”

This agrees perfectly with Jesus’ instruction in Matthew 28:18-20 that believers to “the end of the age” be taught to “observe all things that I have commanded you” (the original disciples). Then, as if to emphasize the unchangeability of the gospel’s time-span, He said, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Observe the expression “all things”. What did He mean by that expression? Scripture does not leave us to wonder. Matthew 10:7-9 makes it very plain: “As you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” When He said, “teach them all things…to the end of the age,” this is what He meant.

The obvious message is that the gospel — and the faith arising from it — have been permanently given one time and will never be given again. That initial provision is sufficient “once for all” time and “once for all” people. In an emphatic way, this says that New Testament faith, doctrinally and experientially, as it was originally presented by the Holy Spirit, is unchangeable. It cannot be added to or taken from. Any cessationist claim otherwise is a hoax. Such an accusation insults the Cross and the work of the Holy Spirit (cf., 2 Peter 1:21).

Even so, the idea is rampant in modern Christianity that parts of the Covenant-Book which Jesus ratified by the sprinkling of His blood (Hebrews 9:11-15), have lost validity. This supposedly occurred at the death of the Apostle John in 70 a.d., or when the New Testament books were canonized into one volume in a.d. 367.

The truth is, modern Christians have invented that monstrous idea. We have done so because we do not want accountability for our own failures. If we can justify the absence of God’s miraculous presence by claiming He withdrew it from us, we don’t have to accept blame for our having withdrawn ourselves from Him.

The Bible’s Example

The Book of Acts gives us a working model of a conscientious, godly pastor who preached a powerless gospel. Like many today, Apollos was pastor of a small, struggling congregation. He was faithful, loved God, served the congregation, but was totally bereft of power. While he was away from his home at Ephesus, Paul came and found his church of 12 male disciples with wives and children. In spite of Apollos having excellent credentials for ministry, Paul immediately recognized powerlessness in the man’s flock. Both Paul and Apollos were servants of God, both equally loved the church, and each possessed vast knowledge of Scripture. Even so, a major discrepancy existed between their ministries. Paul had power; Apollos did not. Paul preached the gospel of the Kingdom; Apollos obviously knew nothing about it.

In light of the Apostle Jude’s exhortation to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints,” we see how Apollos — though innocent of any evil intent — had accepted a partial gospel and experienced partial results. The ministries of Paul and Apollos are a parallel of pastors and churches today. I emphasize the fact that Apollos was ignorant because he had never been taught — not because he had knowingly rejected the truth. In our day pastors fall into two groups: Those who have never been taught and are innocently ignorant of spiritual gifts and those who willfully reject spiritual gifts. Carefully observe these seven facts which Scripture records about Apollos:

1. He was a Jew.
2. An eloquent man.
3. Mighty in Scripture.
4. Instructed in the way of the Lord.
5. Fervent in spirit.
6. Taught accurately the things of the Lord.
7. But: He knew only the “baptism of John” — that is, he knew nothing about the Baptism in the Spirit. He had a partial gospel and a partial faith.

When Paul recognized spiritual-powerlessness in the Ephesians, he asked the all-revealing question, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They responded, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” This tragic ignorance existed because Apollos knew only the “baptism of John.” He knew nothing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and had left his congregation in that same condition. Paul immediately instructed the Ephesians about the Holy Spirit’s empowering and when he “laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” That event proved to be a cataclysmic change not only for Ephesus but for the rest of the Roman world.

Under Apollos’ ministry, the church at Ephesus accomplished absolutely nothing to awaken the city. It demonstrated no Kingdom power, remained spiritually paralyzed, and except for the local Synagogue, its presence was virtually unknown. In that state, the congregation had no effective witness, made no impact on the people, was no threat to “powers, principalities, rulers of the darkness of this world,” etc. Instead, the dark cloud of paganism gripped the land with unchallenged control. The Temple of Diana — or Artemas — already famous as the greatest of all Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, dominated the area. It was in the shadow of this formidable enemy that this minuscule church, ineffective and unknown, lay dormant.

That changed when Paul arrived. When he came on the scene, Ephesus experienced a “Kingdom of God” earthquake. Paul was not the power but he was the instrument for the truth that produced the shaking. He merely provided the window through whom the power roared; Apollos and twelve other windows were already present in Ephesus but they had never been opened.

Jesus Said “The Scripture Cannot Be Broken”

“Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law*, ‘I said, “You are gods’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him. Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.” (John 10:34-40) [*Psalm 82:6]

Jesus reminded the Jews that it was David — not Himself — who first wrote about God miraculously empowering the saints. Those fortunate ones to whom “the word of God comes” are so changed and endowed that in the eyes of the demonic-world — in a comparative sense — they become gods (with a little “g”). Simply stated, Jesus intended the saints to exercise power over the demonic realm (cf., Luke 10:19).

It was Jesus who said “The Scripture CANNOT be broken.” That means that the New Testament is still intact. No part is out-dated and it cannot be victimized by cessationist teaching. In believing it we open ourselves to receive a miraculous imparting of its “word”. Those to whom the word of God comes are changed from ordinary humanity into extraordinary humanity. The “word of the Lord came” to Abraham, Samuel, Nathan, Gad, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Haggai, Zechariah, John the Baptist, the first disciples, others. All of these experienced transformation when the “word of God” came to them. This is the only sensible explanation for the explosive growth of Christianity in the Roman world.

What Happens Today When The True “Word of God” Comes With Power?

1. Psalm 107:19-20. “Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.”

2. Matthew 8:16-17. “When evening had come, they brought unto him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with His word, and healed all who were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, He Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.”

3. Luke 4:31-36. “Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. And in the synagogue there was a man, who had a spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know you who you are — the Holy One of God. But Jesus rebuked him, saying, Be quiet and come out of him. And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him, and did not hurt him. Then they were all amazed, and spoke among themselves, saying, What a word is this! For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out.”

4. Acts 2:40-41. “And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation. Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that about three thousand souls were added unto them.”

5. Titus 1:1-3. “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began; But has in due times manifested his word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior.”

6. I John 2:4-6. “He who says, I know him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him: By this know we that we are in him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (The “Word” is already perfected, so what is being perfected? The one who receives the word.)

7. Luke 1:38. Mary was impregnated when she told the angel, “Be it unto me according to your word.”

8. Matthew 4:4. Jesus said: “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

9. Matthew 24:35. Jesus said: “Heaven and earth shall pass a way but My words will by no means pass away.”

10. God the Father said: “My Covenant I will not break nor alter the Word that is gone out of my lips.” Psalm 89:34.

11. John 17:8. Jesus said to the Father: “For I have given to them (the disciples) the words which You have given Me, and they have received them….”

12. I Peter 1:25. Peter said: “But the word of the Lord endures forever. Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.”

13. II Peter 1:21. Peter said again: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

14. II Timothy 3:16. Paul said: “Be diligent…rightly diving the word of truth.” II Timothy 2:1. Paul said again: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable.”

15. Galatians 1:8. Paul said once more: “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

16. Psalm 119:89. David said: “Forever, O Lord, Your Word is settled in Heaven.”

If you are one of those believers whose Cessationist Theology denies the integrity of Scripture or the Holy Spirit’s miraculous gifts, stop it! You are on the losing team! You are on God’s opposing team!

Kingdom faith is fact, not fiction! Hapax — “once for all.”###

Charles Carrin
Apr 23, 2009


CHARLES CARRIN’S ministry spans the final half of the twentieth century. He was ordained in 1949 and in his youth traveled with men who preached in the 1800′s. For the first twenty-seven years of his ministry, Charles was a hyper-Calvinist Baptist pastor and Presbyterian seminarian who denied the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit. Mid-way in his ministry that abruptly changed. Personal crisis forced him to acknowledge Scriptures he had previously ignored. It was a time of intense pain and testing. The truths he saw were frightening; they had power to destroy his denominational ministry and at that point he had no hope that another, more wonderful ministry awaited him. As a result of his submitting to God in that crisis, Charles emerged with an amazing anointing of the Holy Spirit. Today, his ministry centers upon the visible demonstration of the Spirit and imparting of His gifts. This new ministry has taken him to London’s Westminster Chapel, the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, and other significant places. He, R.T. Kendall, the former, 25 year pastor at Westminster Chapel, and Jack Taylor, former Vice President of the Southern Baptist Convention, travel together holding “Word, Spirit, Power, Conferences.” As an evangelist/writer, Charles’ articles have appeared in major Christian magazines in the United States and abroad. He travels extensively, teaching believers how to operate in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Charles Carrin Ministries


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: cessationism; dispensationalism; holyspirit; miracles
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To: Mad Dawg

Thanks for your kind reply.


101 posted on 05/01/2011 9:16:59 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

I’ve been thinking about all this and have concluded that I am tone deaf as regards apocalyptic trials and tribulations. I have thought for decades, “He could come before lunch!” (or breakfast, or supper) and what would I do differently?

I pray to be alert and awake and to walk as a child of light. It seems to me I should always pray for those gifts.

More than that, I dunno.


102 posted on 05/02/2011 11:40:23 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Quix

Oh, and I htink it’s bonkers to say that the gifts of the spirit stopped back then at some time. It seems to me that there are always ‘signs and wonders’ which God does through the faithful.

Our official position is that revelation stopped with the death of the last Apostle. What’s happened since is “unpacking.” BUT I have on my ice box a postcard-sized copy of Dominic praying over a dead child who, we are told, came back to life and was returned to his mother. Who did that if not the Holy Spirit?


103 posted on 05/02/2011 11:46:57 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Great points in your posts.

THX THX.


104 posted on 05/02/2011 3:12:22 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Off topic, read this, made me think of how you define “love” for brothers and sisters in Christ:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2617&t=NKJV

mercy 149, kindness 40, lovingkindness 30, goodness 12, kindly 5, merciful 4, favour 3, good 1, goodliness 1, pity 1, reproach 1, wicked thing 1

Excerpted article

Love Redefined: Hurts So Good!
April 22, 2011

By Kevin Kleint

Love …. we’re called to walk in it …. it’s one of the 3 things that will remain …. God even defines Himself by it!

God’s Love
The modern day church THINKS they know what God’s Love is. We’re told to be nice to everybody, feed the poor, accept people the way they are, don’t lose your temper in traffic, be patient with each other …. all of this SOUNDS like God’s Love … BUT IS IT??

I want to do a small study about the Lovingkindess of God. It’s not some obscure term that will be kept mysterious and unattainable until we go to be with Him. We won’t be able to pull the “His Ways are NOT Our Ways” excuse when we see Him. His Word is clear.

Love Defined
Let’s go to Psalm 107 and look at the very last verse of the chapter (v43): “Whoever [is] wise will observe these [things], And they will understand the lovingkindness [khesed] of the LORD.” Look at that carefully, it’s telling you that, whatever came before verse 43 will be understood by wise people, and they WILL understand the lovingkindness [khesed] of the Lord.

Due to time and space constraints, I’m not going to put the whole Strong’s concordance reference the Hebrew Word khesed, but click the following link and read the WHOLE definition.

End of excerpt
By Kevin Kleint

Link is

http://www.zionfire.org/love-redefined-hurts-so-good/


105 posted on 05/04/2011 12:07:19 AM PDT by Joya (Everything is ruined. Jesus is coming back. Something to look forward to, it is more than enough.)
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To: Joya

THX.

VERY interesting article.

Much appreciated.


106 posted on 05/04/2011 12:18:13 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix; Mad Dawg; Joya
from the catechism Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work... There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church.

While I think we need to be cautious of these (i.e. we must be sure that they are from God not the other guy) and I believe that even gifts such as quiet contemplation, scholastic study etc. are gifts, to say that these gifts ceased is utterly wrong.

107 posted on 05/04/2011 12:37:12 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

AGREED.


108 posted on 05/04/2011 12:39:42 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7
Why does the OPC say that It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation

?

And why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

109 posted on 05/04/2011 12:39:50 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Quix

note — I don’t agree with you on much, but I don’t see how saying “oh, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work today” makes any sense — what happened? Did the Spirit just go away? And what is wrong with believing that the Spirit works today as well? Is it so wrong to believe that God does not work miracles today?


110 posted on 05/04/2011 12:41:22 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Quix
adding on to what I said but I don’t see how saying “oh, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work today” makes any sense — what happened? Did the Spirit just go away? And what is wrong with believing that the Spirit works today as well? Is it so wrong to believe that God does not work miracles today? --

God is not impotent, nor is God some God who went away and now leaves the universe to handle itself.

I believe that while God allows us to disobey Him, His love still shows in the way He reaches out to help us.

111 posted on 05/04/2011 1:06:30 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos; Quix; Joya
While I think we need to be cautious of these (i.e. we must be sure that they are from God not the other guy)

This is one reason we must find, if not spiritual "directors" or guides or fathers or what have you, at least spiritual friends, who will kick us in the behind when we need it.

I referred earlier to my little picture of Dominic praying over the dead child. It's a fine painting, but one aspect of its "truth" is that Dominic has his hands extended over the child but his eyes are directed upwards and his expression is one of deep supplication.

There is not the least hint of "I've got the power!" It's ALL,"Lord, have mercy!"

And yes, not only do all things work together for good for them that are in Christ Jesus, but all things are gifts. Having nothing at last, we can begin to receive all things as the Lord directs.

Me personally, I'm just gratefully relieved when I am coherent ...

112 posted on 05/04/2011 6:52:43 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Cronos
And why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

Interesting. I hope a reply, unencumbered by all the usual festoons of condescension and hatred, will come forth.

My guess is it comes down to the materialistic and nominalistic (as opposed to realistic) underpinnings of their weltanschauung and the misunderstanding of time.

113 posted on 05/04/2011 7:00:57 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; RnMomof7; Dr. Eckleburg
My guess is it comes down to the materialistic and nominalistic (as opposed to realistic) underpinnings of their weltanschauung and the misunderstanding of time.

As my wife says to me when I say "Achtung!" don't spik German to me! ;-P

Though, thanks to handy-dandy translate.google.com I see that "weltanschauung" = "belief"

I don't completely understand the entire concept of saying "God don't work miracles any more -- it's over, done, kaput"

114 posted on 05/04/2011 7:32:49 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Cronos

True, imho.


115 posted on 05/04/2011 7:52:36 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Mad Dawg
Yeah.

There is that, alright . . . the coherent thing.

Some probably think I never am.

Photobucket

116 posted on 05/04/2011 7:55:00 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Cronos

It’s akin to the RC’s saying that God only does certain things through the edifice and the hierarchy, the magicsterical etc.


117 posted on 05/04/2011 7:56:43 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
So, do YOU understand the concept of "God don't work miracles any more -- it's over, done, kaput" ?
118 posted on 05/04/2011 8:06:24 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Quix

LOL


119 posted on 05/04/2011 8:44:32 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Cronos

I understand how idiotic a notion that is.

I understand some of the psychology behind such UnBiblical hideousness.


120 posted on 05/04/2011 8:47:40 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
the edifice and the hierarchy, the magicsterical etc.

What would a snake-handlin', poison-drinkin' psych professor know about that? ;-)

I think that this remark reflects a common (even among Catholics) misunderstanding of what is best set forth in Dominus Iesus About our view of what is uniquel proper to us. We also have read, "He who is not against us is with us," along with "He who does not gather with us, scatters," and we thread a delicate path there.

121 posted on 05/04/2011 8:48:14 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

LOL.

I’ve noticed.

threaded through lots of rabbit trails, it seems to me.

And such a refined “more accurate” view of RCC realities is held by what . . .

0.000001% of RC’s?


122 posted on 05/04/2011 9:48:11 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Mad Dawg; Cronos

Don’t expect answers to questions filled with erroneous suppositions.

BTW, does Rome believe in speaking in tongues?


123 posted on 05/04/2011 9:49:10 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos; Quix; metmom; presently no screen name; RnMomof7; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; HarleyD; ...
I don’t see how saying “oh, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work today” makes any sense — what happened? Did the Spirit just go away? And what is wrong with believing that the Spirit works today as well?

No Christian says the "Holy Spirit doesn't work today" other than maybe Roman Catholics who relegate the Holy Spirit behind the magisterium and Mary and the sacraments and "alter Christus," etc.

The Holy Spirit is the reason and means for our sanctification. Christians know that the Holy Spirit works in their lives every single day, all day, 24/7.

If He didn't, we wouldn't be Christians. We'd be reprobates who might be inclined to relegate the Holy Spirit behind the magisterium and Mary and the sacraments and "alter Christus," etc.

Is it so wrong to believe that God does not work miracles today?

Miracles occur every day. And every one of those miracles was ordained by God for His glory and our welfare from before the foundation of the world.

124 posted on 05/04/2011 9:59:33 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; Quix
For your edification,Dr. Eck:

OrthodoPresbyterianC from the opc.org website doctrine

Catholic doctrine from the Catechism

  • It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement.
  • In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today.
  • This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation.
  • Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost.
  • The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.

Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 

 

Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church


125 posted on 05/04/2011 10:01:25 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; Quix
Don’t expect answers to questions filled with erroneous suppositions.

Yes, the OPC doctrines are filled with erroneous doctrins, like The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

Why do you believe that?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit cannot come today and has stopped coming?

126 posted on 05/04/2011 10:05:57 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Dr. Eckleburg: No Christian says the "Holy Spirit doesn't work today"

From the opc website Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost. The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.

ok, so doc, do you mean that say that the OPC is not Christian in your opinion?

127 posted on 05/04/2011 10:09:27 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
From the opc website It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today.

This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation.

ok, so doc, do you mean that say that you reject the OPC doctrine on this? Do you think that speaking in tongues is possible today?

128 posted on 05/04/2011 10:11:59 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The problem is that OPC members self-declare your own salvation,
and the OPC preaches that church members do not get Judged - and they are the only ones who are resurrected which is a substitute for Judgement.

As well, the OPC teaches covenant succession, which is the doctrine that church members' children are saved regardless of whether or not they are even Christian.

129 posted on 05/04/2011 10:13:14 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Quix

If we were to use that standard we’d a have to say that Einstein was wrong, the calculus is meaningless and IHS was a failure.

The number of people who know or understand something has no discernible relationship with the truth, just as the number of people who leave Mass General Hospital in a box is not a function of its excellence as a hospital.


130 posted on 05/04/2011 10:14:09 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
BTW, does Rome believe in speaking in tongues?

I'm not sure what "believe in" means, but we acknowledge it and do not condemn it. BTW "materialism" and "nominalism" are not put downs, they are descriptions of schools of thought.

131 posted on 05/04/2011 10:15:46 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg
Well, to be fair (novel idea!), the OPC statement doesn't dismiss ALL works of the Holy Spirit. It says what happened on Pentecost is unique but (as far as I know) it doesn't specify in what respect it is unique.

So one could adhere to the OPC statement and say what Dr. E. said.

132 posted on 05/04/2011 10:18:56 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

LOL.


133 posted on 05/04/2011 10:27:41 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
>>I don’t see how saying “oh, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work today” makes any sense — what happened? Did the Spirit just go away? And what is wrong with believing that the Spirit works today as well?<<

No Christian says the "Holy Spirit doesn't work today" other than maybe Roman Catholics who relegate the Holy Spirit behind the magisterium and Mary and the sacraments and "alter Christus," etc.

The Holy Spirit is the reason and means for our sanctification. Christians know that the Holy Spirit works in their lives every single day, all day, 24/7.

If He didn't, we wouldn't be Christians. We'd be reprobates who might be inclined to relegate the Holy Spirit behind the magisterium and Mary and the sacraments and "alter Christus," etc.

>>Is it so wrong to believe that God does not work miracles today?<<

Miracles occur every day. And every one of those miracles was ordained by God for His glory and our welfare from before the foundation of the world.

Wow. Beautifully put. AMEN! Thanks Dr. E!!!

:D

Hoss

134 posted on 05/04/2011 12:25:37 PM PDT by HossB86 ( NOBODY admits to being a Calvinist unless they are one. I AM ONE.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"No Christian says the "Holy Spirit doesn't work today"

Which is so damning of those who state that the Holy Spirit cannot operate through Apostolic Succession and is incapable of participating in Apostolic Tradition, or, get this, the Holy Spirit cannot guide the Magisterium, but 'indwells" in every milkmaid and farmhand...LOL

135 posted on 05/04/2011 2:46:36 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
Why would the Holy Spirit work through Apostolic Succession when there is no such thing as Apostolic Succession?

Your logic is akin to saying "since the Holy Spirit works in our lives, the Holy Spirit must serve solid gold Big Macs at McDonalds."

Rome teaches superstition and error, in contrast to the evidence of Scripture.

136 posted on 05/04/2011 5:38:46 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos

Fascinating. Rome is even more foolish than I thought.

But I forgot. Rome never met a parlor trick it didn’t try to adapt into its theology.


137 posted on 05/04/2011 6:00:24 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Quix

So, Dr. Eck, do you believe that people can talk in tongues now? Your own doctrines say no and deny God the ability to perform miracles.


138 posted on 05/04/2011 10:46:39 PM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Dr. eck, why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?
139 posted on 05/04/2011 10:53:58 PM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
Dr. eck, why does the OPC say that It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation

?

140 posted on 05/04/2011 10:54:21 PM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Stirring up strife and division for no good purpose is not very admirable.


141 posted on 05/05/2011 8:02:01 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Natural Law; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...

To believe that the

Vatican cult operates in any way, any respect to the least degree

from ‘Apostolic succession’

is to believe in

magicsterical fairy tales of the worst sort of the worst order from the worst source.


142 posted on 05/05/2011 8:04:04 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Really? Then why do you do that so often, Quix? Look at the log in your eye first.


143 posted on 05/05/2011 8:07:48 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Quix
Also, is it wrong, in your opinion to ask a person whose doctrines say It will be noted that the {OPC} sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement.

In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today.

This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation
to ask them why they say that?
144 posted on 05/05/2011 8:09:34 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Quix
Indeed, "sowing discord among brethren" is an abomination to God.

These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. - Proverbs 6:16-19


145 posted on 05/05/2011 8:10:41 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
Also, is it wrong, in your opinion to ask why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

Isn't it a valid question to ask Dr. Eck why her denominations doctrines say that?

Dr. Eck -- would you be able to tell us why?

146 posted on 05/05/2011 8:10:49 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
Also, is it wrong, in your opinion to ask why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

Funny... you always LOVE to post this and claim it's OPC doctrine... but did you read the fine print from the OPC Q&A website that says:

"The answers come from individual ministers in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church expressing their own convictions and do not necessarily represent an "official" position of the Church, especially in areas where the Standards of the Church (the Scriptures and the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms) are silent."

Distort much?

Hoss

147 posted on 05/05/2011 8:31:31 AM PDT by HossB86 ( NOBODY admits to being a Calvinist unless they are one. I AM ONE.)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
Also, is it wrong, in your opinion to ask why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

Funny... you always LOVE to post this and claim it's OPC doctrine... but did you read the fine print from the OPC Q&A website that says:

"The answers come from individual ministers in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church expressing their own convictions and do not necessarily represent an "official" position of the Church, especially in areas where the Standards of the Church (the Scriptures and the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms) are silent."

Distort much?

Hoss

148 posted on 05/05/2011 8:31:43 AM PDT by HossB86 ( NOBODY admits to being a Calvinist unless they are one. I AM ONE.)
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To: Cronos

Which word did you not understand?


149 posted on 05/05/2011 8:33:04 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg

With a haughty finger on the other person’s sternum for the 6,666th time?


150 posted on 05/05/2011 8:34:25 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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