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Why the Rapture is Not in Revelation
American Vision ^ | March 22, 2011 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 03/22/2011 6:36:53 AM PDT by topcat54

Like [Hal] Lindsey and many who preceded and followed him in pronouncing their generation as “terminal,” [Jeff] Lasseigne is constrained by his dispensational hermeneutic to offer a worldview that is really an “upper-world worldview”:

Or as John MacArthur said, “Man’s efforts to bring about a better world . . . amount to little more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to give everyone a better view as the ship sinks” (196).[3]
The “rapture” has been a convenient escape hatch for Christians. When times worsened, the “rapture” was preached with great vitality. Millions were assured that before all hell breaks loose that they would be taken to heaven to watch the Great Tribulation from up above the heavens so bright.

Lasseigne manufactures a “rapture” theology in Revelation 4:1–2. John told to “come up here” is thought to be a “symbolic picture of the rapture” (76). This is a common interpretation among dispensationalists. Lasseigne isn’t the first one to use it. Tim LaHaye made it the cornerstone of his Revelation rapture theology. For those who claim to interpret prophecy literally, Revelation 4:1-2 says nothing about the church being taken to heaven prior to a seven-year tribulation period, but LaHaye argues for it anyway even though the phrase “seven years” does not appear in Revelation.

(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: currentevents; eschatology; preterism
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"You might remember “Wrong-Way Corrigan.” Douglas Corrigan (1907–1995) was an American aviator. He was nicknamed “Wrong Way” in 1938 after he flew from Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn, New York, to Ireland, though his flight plan was filed to return to Long Beach, California. He claimed his unauthorized flight was due to a navigational error, caused by heavy cloud cover that obscured landmarks and low-light conditions, causing him to misread his compass. Lasseigne is like “Wrong Way Corrigan.” He has the skills to write popular expositions of the Bible, but the clear interpretive clues in Revelation are obscured by a heavy cloud cover of dispensational interpretive ambiguity."
1 posted on 03/22/2011 6:37:00 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)
Biblically Optimistic and Gospel-Based

"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)

2 posted on 03/22/2011 6:38:05 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54
THANK YOU!

Christ didn't escape suffering...so why should we? Are we greater or more deserving than Christ?

3 posted on 03/22/2011 6:47:59 AM PDT by ozark hilljilly (Y'all had enough, yet?)
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To: ozark hilljilly

“Christ didn’t escape suffering...so why should we? Are we greater or more deserving than Christ? “

No we are not greater than Christ. What does that have to do with this?

Christ died for our sins, so that we would not have to.


4 posted on 03/22/2011 6:49:46 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: topcat54

later


5 posted on 03/22/2011 6:51:04 AM PDT by fightinJAG (I am sick of people adding comments to titles in the title box. Thank you.)
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To: driftdiver

It has to do with pain n suffering and being jet packed out of the scene. Ain’t gonna happen.
It is because Christ died and rose that we will be able to endure the coming tribulations, not hide like a bunch of cowards in some rapturous heaven.


6 posted on 03/22/2011 6:57:16 AM PDT by ozark hilljilly (Y'all had enough, yet?)
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To: topcat54

I still love what a young Christian Jew used to say:(Back in the early sixties)
“Some people tell me we are in the tribulation now; others tell me we are in the Millennium.”

“It it’s the tribulation, its not as bad as I thought it would be; if it’s the Millennium, it is not as good as I thought it would be.”

We can all be assured: He (Jesus Christ) will return again,
for He said: “I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go to prepare a place for you, I will return again, and receive you unto Myself.”

“As it was in the day of Noe, so shall it be in the day of the coming of the Son of Man....”


7 posted on 03/22/2011 7:04:07 AM PDT by LetMarch (If a man knows the right way to live, and does not live it, there is no greater coward. (Anonymous)
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To: ozark hilljilly

I think that is up to God, not what we think or interpret.
To me, anything is possible with God, but it is my prayer to serve Him to bring all home who are meant to be His children, that are written in the book of life, if that means stay and suffer, so be it, if that means be ratured as it would be my Father’s will, so be it..God’s will be done, not mine..


8 posted on 03/22/2011 7:04:46 AM PDT by aces
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To: All
From the article:
The pre-trib “rapture” of the church is a theological necessity for dispensationalists—”the product of a deduction from one’s overall system of theology”—so God can once again deal with national Israel. But word counts leave us with something of a dilemma since the word Israel only appears once after the supposed rapture of the church, and not until Revelation 7:4! One would think that if the church is in view in the first three chapters because the words church and churches are used nineteen times, then shouldn’t we expect to find the word Israel used more than once after chapter three if this entire seven-year period is about God’s dealings with a future national Israel?

9 posted on 03/22/2011 7:05:26 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: ozark hilljilly

“It has to do with pain n suffering and being jet packed out of the scene. Ain’t gonna happen.”

The Bible says believers will be gathered. It doesn’t use the word rapture, it also doesn’t say that believers will all be forced to live through the tribulation.

“It is because Christ died and rose that we will be able to endure the coming tribulations, not hide like a bunch of cowards in some rapturous heaven.”

Christ died for one reason, so that we would not have to. Not so we could avoid tribulation but so we could go to heaven. Going to heaven is not cowardly. You’re making it some kind of ego based decision, its not.


10 posted on 03/22/2011 7:05:59 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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Why rapture is in Revelation:

"And she brought forth a man child,
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (Rev 12:5)

('caught up' = harpazo Greek for the Latin 'rapio')
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
11 posted on 03/22/2011 7:05:59 AM PDT by evets (beer)
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To: ozark hilljilly

Doesn’t matter one bit for salvation but is a convenient tool for the enemy to use to keep the body from working together to serve The Lords purposes. Put on the Armor of God, become the Army of God, stop arguing about irrelevant and keep working on pulling Logs put of your eyes and get to the Lords business of feeding his Sheep and spreading the Good News. Time is short. :-)


12 posted on 03/22/2011 7:06:17 AM PDT by humantech ("No one wants to live to see such evil times. Its what you do with the time you are given")
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To: LetMarch; ozark hilljilly; fightinJAG
"Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

Anyone who goes around talking about the signs of the times and that certainty that Jesus is coming back Real Soon Now® is obviously confused.

13 posted on 03/22/2011 7:10:39 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: evets

So... Jesus was raptured?


14 posted on 03/22/2011 7:12:38 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: driftdiver
Christ died for our sins, so that we would not have to.

Spiritually, yes. However, where He leads, we will follow... to the Cross. St Thomas Aquinas noted that what happens to the head (Christ) will also happen to the body (Church). The Church will suffer for the glory of God as Christ did.

15 posted on 03/22/2011 7:14:58 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke

“Spiritually, yes. However, where He leads, we will follow.”

Suffering does not lead to salvation. Acceptance and faith in Christ is the only way down that path.


16 posted on 03/22/2011 7:16:53 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: pgyanke
Lol... at least once.
...
IBTR

17 posted on 03/22/2011 7:16:53 AM PDT by evets (beer)
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To: topcat54
For those who claim to interpret prophecy literally, Revelation 4:1-2 says nothing about the church being taken to heaven prior to a seven-year tribulation period

"Come up here" is John being brought into the heavenly court of God, to receive a message to deliver. This is the experience of the OT prophets, here recounted in much greater detail.

18 posted on 03/22/2011 7:20:15 AM PDT by Lee N. Field (Never argue eschatology with a crazy person.)
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To: humantech

I do agree, to an extent but I truly and firmly believe with all my heart and God saved soul that the rapture is a tool of satan and will be employed by the anti-Christ to deceive many. So, we don’t waste our time on these folks? I know it says that many will fall for the baloney, but don’t we have an obligation to speak the truth to them? If the bad times happen in my lifetime, I’m going down swinging, proclaiming God n Christ as I die. Why would I want to chillax in a heaven during all that? That’s like pulling all your best players out of the game at the most critical point. Not that I’m saying I’m a good player-good grief no!-I am weak, but He’s strong. But I hope you get what I’m saying there. The theory of rapture makes no sense to me.

Maybe that last sentence there is all I should have said to begin with. Oh well, won’t be the 1st time.


19 posted on 03/22/2011 7:20:42 AM PDT by ozark hilljilly (Y'all had enough, yet?)
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To: ozark hilljilly

I get where you are coming from and know folks who argue just as convincingly from the other side of this. I love you both and know you do it from your heart. I’m undecided but suspect I’ll know One way or another soon enough if I’m seeing the sign if the times correctly - be at peace, and safety , Gods guidance and blessings on you and yours....


20 posted on 03/22/2011 7:29:08 AM PDT by humantech ("No one wants to live to see such evil times. Its what you do with the time you are given")
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To: topcat54

Actually, I believe it is in Revelation, in chapter 7, after the 144k are sealed.


21 posted on 03/22/2011 7:30:02 AM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: topcat54

Revelation 7: 9, 13, 14
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


22 posted on 03/22/2011 7:33:43 AM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: RobRoy

Thank You, Bob!

Instead of looking for the rapture...we should reread all those scriptures, and look forward to that great multitude that will be saved in the midst of tribulation!


23 posted on 03/22/2011 7:45:57 AM PDT by WestwardHo (Whom the gods would destroy, they first drive mad.)
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To: ozark hilljilly

“I do agree, to an extent but I truly and firmly believe with all my heart and God saved soul that the rapture is a tool of satan and will be employed by the anti-Christ to deceive many.”

Christians can discuss the Word of God without being evil. What is evil about believing that being saved will result in rapture before the tribulation?

How is it deceiving anyone?


24 posted on 03/22/2011 7:46:27 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver
Suffering does not lead to salvation. Acceptance and faith in Christ is the only way down that path.

I'd like to know your definition of love.

25 posted on 03/22/2011 7:46:46 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: WestwardHo

Thank you Rob! Sorry for the finger spasm!


26 posted on 03/22/2011 7:46:59 AM PDT by WestwardHo (Whom the gods would destroy, they first drive mad.)
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To: pgyanke

“I’d like to know your definition of love.”

eh? my definition of love? Are you sure you don’t want the meaning of life?


27 posted on 03/22/2011 7:50:56 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: All

You all do a magnificent job of turning the “Blessed Hope” into the “blessed hopelessness.” What do you care if someone believes in the Rapture? I certainly do. And I don’t apologize to any of you for it it.

The post trib philosophy is a nasty, toxic, angry series of rants founded on congratulating each other about theological purity and welcoming the painful suffering ahead. I’ve yet to meet a post-tribber that wasn’t a vicious egomaniac, inviting people to share in glorious suffering and death as part of Christian religion. Sound like anyone else you know?

I rarely engage in these food fights. But the bottom line is, you all can’t prove you are right any more than I can.

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10 KJV)

Enjoy your grim suffering. I’ll take my chances. Now get back to congratulating yourselves and attacking your fellow Christians who are at peace with you.


28 posted on 03/22/2011 7:53:49 AM PDT by Luke21
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To: WestwardHo

Precisely.


29 posted on 03/22/2011 7:54:04 AM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: driftdiver

Are you incapable of answering a simple question? You sound like my eight-year-old.


30 posted on 03/22/2011 7:55:47 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Luke21

Where was I attacking anyone?


31 posted on 03/22/2011 7:56:00 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: pgyanke

A nice response, and, in my opinion, a correct response.


32 posted on 03/22/2011 7:56:46 AM PDT by old3030 (I lost some time once. It's always in the last place you look.)
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To: ozark hilljilly
"Christ didn't escape suffering...so why should we?"

You are absolutely correct that we are not promised to be free from suffering, but are actually told that we will suffer and be persecuted for our belief in Christ.

What is happening in Revelation is not suffering in that vain, but the wrath of God poured out on men. A wrath that we have been rescued from through Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:9 - Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

1 Thes 5:9 - For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

JM
33 posted on 03/22/2011 7:56:55 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: Luke21
Now get back to congratulating yourselves and attacking your fellow Christians who are at peace with you.

Ironically, yours is the nastiest post on this thread so far...

34 posted on 03/22/2011 7:58:56 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke

“Are you incapable of answering a simple question?”

For someone professing to be a Christian your behavior is lacking a certain grace. I was not asked a simple question.

“You sound like my eight-year-old.”

Judging from your posts to me I’d say your 8 yr old has a very poor example. You’re not a very nice person.


35 posted on 03/22/2011 7:59:02 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

I think the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture and dispensationalism in general are faulty interpretation, but I don’t think we need to fall out over it. You’re right, we can discuss it and disagree without accusing one another of deceit or being tools of Satan.


36 posted on 03/22/2011 8:04:21 AM PDT by old3030 (I lost some time once. It's always in the last place you look.)
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To: evets
ding ding ding! we have a winner. This is THE rapture verse in the Bible. Many confuse this passage about the woman and the man child to be about Mary or Israel and Christ, but it is not.

JM
37 posted on 03/22/2011 8:05:12 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: driftdiver
For someone professing to be a Christian your behavior is lacking a certain grace. I was not asked a simple question.

I beg your pardon... I simply asked for your definition of love. You answered with a lack of grace.

Judging from your posts to me I’d say your 8 yr old has a very poor example. You’re not a very nice person.

Judging and condescension are precisely the problem with our conversation. I meant to have a nice chat with you that I thought would be interesting for both of us. Since you see this as an attack, I can only conclude that a nice chat is not in the offing. Good day and may God bless you.

38 posted on 03/22/2011 8:06:44 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: old3030

“I think the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture and dispensationalism in general are faulty interpretation, but I don’t think we need to fall out over it.”

very well said


39 posted on 03/22/2011 8:07:15 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: pgyanke

“You answered with a lack of grace.”

No I asked you if you really wanted the meaning of life. To which you insulted me and now are seeking to accuse me of being irrational. I don’t see anywhere in there where you wanted to have a ‘nice chat’.


40 posted on 03/22/2011 8:11:03 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: topcat54; blasater1960
I think the 'rapture' is misunderstood. Could it really be the removal of the tares/wicked ones?

 First I noticed some variances with the following verses, depending on which bible a person uses.

Luke 17 (KJV)
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The verse in question is 37. I did a search on the word eagles. Got this.

From the Greek
105 aetos ah-et-os'
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)

Ok... so why the mention of carrion? So, I checked other bibles.

Luke 17 (NIV)
37"Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

Luke 17 (NASB)
37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

Luke 17 (AMP)
37Then they asked Him, Where, Lord? He said to them, Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures or eagles be gathered together.

Luke 17 (NLT)
37"Lord, where will this happen?" the disciples asked. Jesus replied, "Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near."[1]
Footnotes
1. 17:37 Greek Wherever the carcass is, the vultures gather.

Luke 17 (WE)
37 They asked him, `Where will this be, Lord?' He said, `The big birds that eat meat will go to the place where the dead body is.'

So, let's look at some parallel verse from Matthew.

Matthew 24 (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

It seems that corpse and vultures would be the more proper reading. Notice that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the arrival of Messiah. In the days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the arrival of Messiah. The answer given by Yehoshua refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain as the Messiah arrives.

Now, let's look at the tares and wheat:

Matthew 13 (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Yehoshua then explains the parable in detail to His disciples:

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice the timing of events described, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of YHWH are still among them.

Now, go back and re-read Luke 17:26-30. Sudden destruction comes upon the wicked at the arrival of Messiah. They will all perish.

Revelation 3 (all the following are from the KJV)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You can't surprise the wicked if you take away the righteous first. Messiah is supposed to come quickly, like a thief in the night, so people are to repent, live righteously and be watchful, lest they be caught by surprise. If you remove the righteous first, the wicked are going to notice and NOT be surprised.

Revelation 16 shows the last seven plagues being poured out on the unrepentant wicked of the earth. Through verse 12 the first six of the plagues are poured out, and THEN in verse 15-

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Messiah has NOT come yet at the time of the sixth plague! Notice that the seventh plague then falls in verse 17-

Revelation 16 (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

At the time the seventh plague is announcing the time for earth has come to an end, and the arrival of Messiah follows. So, Messiah does not come to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful are NOT removed at any point prior to these plagues, they have endured them without fear of being affected by them.

Psalm 91 (JPS)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Of the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor of the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 For thou hast made YHWH who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation.
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
11 For He will give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Proverbs 10:30   The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

From what I read, there is no foundation for a pre-trib rapture or removal of the righteous at all.

I guess I just don't see where some people get the idea that they are going to escape the tribulation. The wicked are removed first.

I think the tribulation is the judgement. No one escapes the judgement.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rewards aren't given prior, they are given after.

Psalm 37 (JPS)
9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; but those that wait for YHWH, they shall inherit the land.
20 For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of YHWH shall be as the fat of lambs -- they shall pass away in smoke, they shall pass away.
22 For such as are blessed of Him shall inherit the land; and they that are cursed of Him shall be cut off.
23 It is of YHWH that a man's goings are established; and He delighted in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for YHWH upholdeth his hand.
27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28 For YHWH loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33 YHWH will not leave him in his hand, nor suffer him to be condemned when he is judged.
34 Wait for YHWH, and keep His way, and He will exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of YHWH; He is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
40 And YHWH helpeth them, and delivereth them; He delivereth them from the wicked, and saveth them, because they have taken refuge in Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Alive and remain. This indicates that some are dead and gone already. (The wicked)

It might be that during this period of being caught up in the air, is when the new earth and heaven are created.

41 posted on 03/22/2011 8:13:57 AM PDT by Netizen
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To: RobRoy
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;

That reads like those are the ones that survived the Tribulation.

42 posted on 03/22/2011 8:23:43 AM PDT by Netizen
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To: driftdiver
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

43 posted on 03/22/2011 8:24:34 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Luke21

A lot of what you say has been on my mind reading this thread. If one cannot discuss the Bible without being rude, then they should probably not do so.


44 posted on 03/22/2011 8:30:26 AM PDT by Grunthor (hcg diet, down 32 lbs in 5 weeks)
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To: Netizen

>>That reads like those are the ones that survived the Tribulation.<<

Precisely. I believe there will be a “rapture”, but I am a mid-tribulationist, which is technically “post-trib, pre-wrath”.

The scripture I posted marks the end of the 3.5 year tribulation against the saints and the 3.5 year wrath of God against everyone else. I tell people to Remove the “left behind” paradigm from their thinking and look at it fresh. And this can be a big help for many:

http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/Definitions/Def_Pretrib.htm

The “mid-trib” position works much better with the rest of both old and new testament prophesy. I was a pre-tribulationist at first. I mean, I did go to Assembly of God for 18 years. But about two years into it I started asking, out loud, the questions that I had always had concerns about. As I studied the scripture myself, many of those questions were answered, but only with the mid-trib viewpoint. I happened on the article above about two years ago from a thread here.


45 posted on 03/22/2011 8:33:29 AM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: RobRoy
I think the wrath is part of the trib.

I think we all have to go through the fire, no matter what label we assign ourselves.

46 posted on 03/22/2011 8:44:18 AM PDT by Netizen
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To: pgyanke
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

47 posted on 03/22/2011 8:53:33 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: topcat54

If we are walking with Christ, it doesn’t make a hill of beans as to when the “rapture” is, or even if there is one.


48 posted on 03/22/2011 9:43:36 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.....Eagle Scout since Sep 9, 1970)
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To: Netizen
Exactly!
49 posted on 03/22/2011 10:02:37 AM PDT by jmj3jude
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To: Netizen

>>I think the wrath is part of the trib. <<

Well, it’s sort of semantics thing with me. I see it as a “tribulation period” of seven years in which the first half is “satans wrath against the saints” and the second half is “Gods wrath against everyone left after the rapture”.

All that said, it is only an opinion, and I fully expect to be wrong on minor points, and maybe even major ones. I’ll find out either after I die or after it happens, whichever comes first. ;)


50 posted on 03/22/2011 10:40:03 AM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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