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Bishops Urge Catholic Schools to Ban a Nunís Book
The New York Times ^ | 3/30/11 | Laurie Goodstein

Posted on 03/31/2011 7:12:27 AM PDT by marshmallow

A committee of American Roman Catholic bishops announced Wednesday that a popular book about God by Sister Elizabeth A. Johnson, a theologian at Fordham University in New York, should not be used in Catholic schools and universities because it does not uphold church doctrine.

The book, “Quest for the Living God: Mapping Frontiers in the Theology of God,” examines different understandings of God through the experiences of the poor and oppressed, Holocaust victims, Hispanics, women and people of religions other than Catholicism. Among the chapter titles are “God Acting Womanish” and “Accompanying God of Fiesta.”

The bishops’ committee on doctrine said in a statement: “The book does not take the faith of the Church as its starting point. Instead, the author employs standards from outside the faith to criticize and to revise in a radical fashion the conception of God revealed in Scripture and taught by the Magisterium,” the church’s teaching authority according to the popes and bishops.

Sister Johnson did not return a phone call but said in a statement that while she welcomed criticism, the bishops had radically misinterpreted her book and never invited her to discuss it.

She said, “The book itself endeavors to present new insights about God arising from people living out their Catholic faith in different cultures around the world. My hope is that any conversation that may be triggered by this statement will enrich that faith.”

Sister Johnson is a prominent feminist theologian and a former president of the Catholic Theological Society of America and the American Theological Society, an ecumenical organization. She belongs to a religious order in New York, the Sisters of St. Joseph of Brentwood.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: ats; catholic; ctsa; elizabethjohnson; feminist; fordhamuniversity; sisterjohnson
Sister Johnson did not return a phone call but said in a statement that while she welcomed criticism, the bishops had radically misinterpreted her book and never invited her to discuss it.

Uh-huh........radical feminists really welcome criticism......*wink*.....

Why would the bishops "invite her to discuss it"?? Did she seek a bishop's opinion when she was writing it? Uh.......no. Now, all of a sudden, she wants to "discuss it." Right.

She's been used to the "out to lunch" AmChurch bishops of the past 3-4 decades but things are changing.

1 posted on 03/31/2011 7:12:30 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

God forbid! Another Martin Luther.


2 posted on 03/31/2011 7:21:20 AM PDT by OldNavyVet (One trillion days, at 365 days per year, is 2,739,726,027 years ... almost 3 billion years)
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To: marshmallow

The wearing of a habit does not preclude a woman from being a radical feminist. If you are a CATHOLIC NUN, you have an obligation to support the Church’s teachings and doctrines, not cook up some wacky theories based on things which conflict with the Church’s teachings.


3 posted on 03/31/2011 7:22:49 AM PDT by NWFLConservative
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To: marshmallow

Another left over from the “let’s get rid of the habit so that no one knows we’re a nun”, faction of the church.


4 posted on 03/31/2011 7:30:00 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Dutchboy88
Or a typical Roman Catholic who has been taught that the whole organization is built on using mystical tradition to lead them to “truth”. Very similar to sacerdotalism, mariolatry, absolution, penence, indulgences, and on and on. Actually, she sounds like the book fits right in with the rest of the cult-like doctrines of Rome.

Good to see you shooting from the lip with out presenting evidence still.

6 posted on 03/31/2011 7:43:00 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: marshmallow

She has steadfastly avoided being known as a nun until now. She’s always been identified as Dr. Johnston or Professor or just “Elizabeth Johnson, prominent theologian.”

But now the NYSlimes suddenly makes her into poor widdle Sister, big bad meanie bishops pickn’ on po’ widdle Sister, dearl widdle Sister, poor baby Sister, Mommy, make those bad men stop picking on me.


7 posted on 03/31/2011 7:57:50 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: marshmallow

She has steadfastly avoided being known as a nun until now. She’s always been identified as Dr. Johnston or Professor or just “Elizabeth Johnson, prominent theologian.”

But now the NYSlimes suddenly makes her into poor widdle Sister, big bad meanie bishops pickn’ on po’ widdle Sister, dearl widdle Sister, poor baby Sister, Mommy, make those bad men stop picking on me.


8 posted on 03/31/2011 7:57:56 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: Dutchboy88

Slander without a shred of knowledge... nice.


9 posted on 03/31/2011 8:07:14 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
"Slander without a shred of knowledge... nice.'

Perhaps you have not been introduced to the famous book of proof contradicting the abberant doctrines of Rome...it's called the Bible. Check into it sometime, if Rome allows.

10 posted on 03/31/2011 8:37:22 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
Actually, (to me,) she sounds like the book fits right in with the rest of the cult-like doctrines of Rome heretical protestantism.
11 posted on 03/31/2011 8:40:17 AM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: Celtic Cross

Makes perfect sense you would take this errant stand.


13 posted on 03/31/2011 9:29:42 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: pgyanke

One of the important rules of posting around here is to avoid claiming to know how a person thinks. You may wish to review those rules.


14 posted on 03/31/2011 9:31:11 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
Or a typical Roman Catholic who has been taught that the whole organization is built on using mystical tradition to lead them to “truth”. Very similar to sacerdotalism, mariolatry, absolution, penence, indulgences, and on and on. Actually, she sounds like the book fits right in with the rest of the cult-like doctrines of Rome.

Apparently not.

The bishops have canned it.

Any other comments on the article?

15 posted on 03/31/2011 9:38:26 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Dutchboy88; verdugo; xzins; Tax-chick

Verdugo: Let’s see how you do if you try to make yourself actually useful for a change. Review #2 first, then #5. Dutchboy88 is in serious need of correction. Have at it!


16 posted on 03/31/2011 9:53:05 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club: Burn 'em Bright!!!)
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To: Dutchboy88
Actually, she[sic] sounds like the book fits right in with the rest of the cult-like doctrines of Rome.

Not actually at all but, obviously, you know far more about the Roman Catholic Church than its bishops, right?

17 posted on 03/31/2011 9:55:05 AM PDT by newzjunkey
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To: marshmallow
"Any other comments on the article?"

Certainly. The myth that there is some kind of "unified" thought process eminating from Rome about correct doctrine is routinely being debunked by the various elements of the organization. The real believers in Jesus Christ and the rest of the world is observing just how fragmented the thinking is within this self-aggrandizing organization.

18 posted on 03/31/2011 10:13:58 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: BlackElk

;-).


19 posted on 03/31/2011 10:24:43 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Nadie me ama como Jesus.)
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To: BlackElk
Orestes Brownson, a former Congregationalist minister. [O.A. Brownson: “Protestantism in a Nutshell,” Brownson’s Quarterly Review, October, 1849, Loc. Cit., pp.136-142.]

The works [on Protestantism] we have, excellent as they are in their way, and admirably fitted to guard the faithful against many of the devices of the enemy to detach them from the church, and to aid and instruct persons in heretical communions who are virtually prepared to return to the church, do not hit the reigning form of Protestantism; they do not reach the seat of the disease,, and are apparently written on the supposition of soundness, where there is , in fact only rottenness. The principles they assume as the basis of their refutation of Protestantism, though nominally professed or conceded by the majority of Protestants are not held with sufficient firmness to be used as the foundation of an argument that is to have any practical efficacy in their conversion. They all appear to assume that Protestants as a body really mean to be Christians, and err only in regard to some of the dogmas of Christianity and the method of determining the faith; that Protestantism is a specific heresy, a distinct and positive form of error, like Arianism or Pelagianism; and that its adherents would regard themselves as bound to reject it, if proved to be repugnant to Christianity, or contrary to the Holy Scriptures. This is a natural and a charitable supposition; but we are sorry to say, that if it was ever warrantable, it is not by any means warrantable in our times [October, 1849], except as to the small number of individuals in the several sects who are mere exceptions to the rule. Protestantism is no specific heresy, is not a distinct or positive form of error, but error in general, indifferent to forms, and receptive of any form or of all forms, as suits the convenience or the exigency of its friends. It is a veritable Proteus, and takes any and every shape judged to be proper to deceive the eyes or to elude the blows of the champions of truth. It is Lutheran, Calvinistic, Arminian, Unitarian, Pantheistic, Atheistic, Pyrrhonistic, each by turns or all at once, as is necessary to its purpose. The Protestant as such has, in the ordinary sense, no principles to maintain, no character to support, no consistency to preserve; and we are aware of no authority, no law, no usage, by which he will consent to be bound. Convict him from tradition, and he appeals to the Bible; convict him from the Bible, and he appeals to reason; convict him from reason, and he appeals to private sentiment; convict him from private sentiment, and he appeals to scepticism, or flies back to reason, to Scripture, or tradition, and alternately from one to the other, never scrupling to affirm, one moment, what he denied the moment before, nor blushing to be found maintaining that of contradictories both may be true. He is indifferent as to what he asserts or denies, if able for the moment to obtain an apparent covert from his pursuers.

Protestants do not study for the truth, and are never to be presumed willing to accept it, unless it chances to be where and what they wish it. They occasionally read our [Catholic] books and listen to our arguments, but rarely to ascertain our doctrines, or to learn what we are able to say against them or for ourselves. The thought, that we may possibly be right, seldom occurs to them; and when it does, it is instantly suppressed as an evil thought, as a temptation from the devil. They take it for granted, that, against us, they are right, and cannot be wrong. This is with them a 'fixed fact,' admitting no question. [b]They condescend to consult what doctrines they can profess, or what modifications they can introduce into those which they have professed, that will best enable them to elude our attacks, or give them the appearance of escaping conviction by the authorities from tradition, Scriptures, reason, and sentiment which we array against them. Candor or ingenuousness towards themselves even is a thing wholly foreign to their Protestant nature, and they are instinctively and habitually cavillers and sophisticators. They disdain to argue a question on its merits, and always, if they argue at all, argue it on some unimportant collateral. They never recognize it, unless it in their interest to do so, any distinction between a transeat and a concedo. and rarely fail to insist that the concession of an irrelevant point is a concession of the main issue. They have no sense of responsibility, no loyalty to truth, no mental chastity, no intellectual sincerity. What is for them is authority which no body must question; what is against them is no authority at all. Their own word if not in their favor, they refuse to accept; and the authority to which they professedly appeal they repudiate the moment it is seen not to sustain them. To reason with them as if they would stand by their own professions, or could or would acknowledge any authority but their own ever varying opinions, is entirely to mistake them, and to betray our own simplicity.

Undoubtedly, many of our friends, who have not, like ourselves, been brought up Protestants, and have not to blush at the knowledge their Protestant experience has given them, may feel that in this judgment we are rash and uncharitable. Would that we were so. We take no pleasure in thinking ill of any portion of our fellow men, and would always rather find ourselves wrong in our unfavorable judgments of them than right. But in this matter the evidence is too clear and conclusive to allow us even to hope that we are wrong. There is not a single Protestant doctrine opposed to Catholicity that even Protestants themselves have not over and over again completely refuted; there is not a single charge brought by Protestants against the church that some of them, as well as we, have not fully exploded; and no more conclusive vindication of the claims of Catholicity can be desired than may be, nay, than in fact has been collected from distinguished Protestant writers themselves. This is a fact which no Protestant, certainly no Catholic, can deny. How happens it, then, that the Protestant world still subsists, and that, for the last hundred and fifty years [we may add another hundred and fifty years to this figure. Ed.] we have made comparatively little progress in regaining Protestants to the Church?

We may, it is true, be referred to the obstinacy in error characteristic of all heretics; but, in the present case, unless what is meant is obstinacy in error in general, and not error in particular, this will not suffice as an answer; because, during this period, there has been no one particular form of error to which Protestants have uniformly adhered. No class of Protestants adheres today to the opinions it originally avowed. In this respect, there is a marked difference between the Protestant sects of modern times and the early Oriental sects. The Jacobite holds to day the same specific heresy which he held a thousand years ago; and the Nestorian of the nineteenth is substantially the Nestorian of the fourth century. But nothing analogous is true of any of the modern Protestant sects. Protestants boast, indeed. their glorious reformation. but they no longer hold the views of its authors. Luther. were he to ascend to the scenes of his earthly labors, would be utterly unable to recognize his teachings in the doctrines of the modern Lutherans; the Calvinist remains a Calvinist only in name; the Baptist disclaims his Anabaptist origin; the Unitarian points out the errors he detects In his Socinian ancestors; and the Transcendentalist looks down with pity on his Unitarian parents, while he considers it a cruel persecution to be excluded from the Unitarian family. No sect retains unmodified, unchanged, the precise form of error with which it set out. All the forms Protestantism has from time to time assumed have been developed, modified, altered, almost as soon as assumed, always as internal or external controversy made it necessary or expedient. Here is a fact nobody can deny, and it proves conclusively that the Protestant world does not subsist solely by virtue of its obstinate attachment to the views or opinions to which it has once committed itself, or in consequence of its aversion to change the doctrines it has once professed . . . .

A sort of honesty and sincerity we certainly concede to the generality of Protestants; but as to the end for which they profess their doctrines, rather than as to the doctrines themselves. The principle common to them, and the only one we can always be sure they will practically adhere to, is, that the end justifies the means. The end they propose is, neither to save their souls nor to discover and obey the truth, but to destroy or elude Catholicity. The spirit which possesses them maddens them against the church, and gives them an inward repugnance to everything not opposed to her. To overthrow her, to blot out her existence, or to prevent her from crushing them with the weight of her truth, is to them a praiseworthy end, at least a great and most desirable end: directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously, it becomes the ruling passion after money getting of their lives, a passion in which they are confirmed and strengthened by all the blandishments of the world, and all the seductions of the flesh. Any means which tend to gratify this passion, to realize this end, they hold to be lawful, and they can adopt them, however base, detestable, or shocking in themselves, with a quiet conscience and admirable self complacency.

20 posted on 03/31/2011 10:25:08 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo

verdugo:

Well done.


21 posted on 03/31/2011 10:50:30 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: BlackElk
re: Verdugo: Let’s see how you do if you try to make yourself actually useful for a change

Give me your postal mailing address and I'll send you some free passes to etiquette and genteel communications classes.

22 posted on 03/31/2011 10:50:33 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: BlackElk
By the way, that was Orestes Brownson, the strict EENSer, that also wrote:

Orestes Brownson 1874: "There can be no more fatal mistake than to soften, liberalize or latitudinize this terrible dogma, "Out of the Church there is no salvation... If we wish to convert Protestants and infidels we must preach in all its rigor the naked dogma. Give them the smallest peg or what appears so, not to you, but to them;--- the smallest peg on which to hang a hope of salvation without being in or actually reconciled to the Church by the sacrament of Penance, and all the arguments you can address to them to prove the necessity of being in the Church in order to be saved will have no more effect on them than rain on a duck's back."

23 posted on 03/31/2011 10:59:23 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo

verdugo:

Well done in the context of the article and some of the responses. Not looking to get into what is the definition of EENS in this thread with you.

Regardless, even you must commend the U.S. Bishops Conference for criticizing Prof. Johnson’s “book and views” [not her person] and lets hope she recants and revises her book.


24 posted on 03/31/2011 11:03:33 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: verdugo
Hypocrite. By sending #22 to Black Elk, you maybe should be looking into those classes yourself.
25 posted on 03/31/2011 11:05:57 AM PDT by fish hawk (R. Emmett Tyrrell: Liberalism is dead. What we see now is "soft Nazis-ism".)
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To: CTrent1564
Lets hope she recants and revises her book.

Yeah, we can all see her doing that, right. Radical Catholic Feminists are always looking to be corrected and willing to accept the opposition view.

26 posted on 03/31/2011 11:12:06 AM PDT by fish hawk (R. Emmett Tyrrell: Liberalism is dead. What we see now is "soft Nazis-ism".)
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To: Dutchboy88
One of the important rules of posting around here is to avoid claiming to know how a person thinks. You may wish to review those rules.

I'm sorry my post was removed. Seems pretty clear to me how you think... and it deserved my response. I make no apologies for your abuse report. Remain in your much-beloved ignorance, if you choose. I'm done with your inane postings. Good day.

27 posted on 03/31/2011 11:16:14 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: fish hawk

It wa a joke. Black Elk and I go back a long way. We use to double date.


28 posted on 03/31/2011 11:28:23 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: fish hawk

fish hawk:

You never know, there was a Catholic feminist who was involved in a “fake ordination” and she publicly recanted after being excommunicated. Now, I don’t think what Prof. Johnson did warrants excommunication, but “censure” was the correct measure by the Bishops. At some point, if she continues down this path, then her credentials as a Catholic Theologian should be taken away, similar to Fr. Curran back in the 80’s here in the States and Fr. Kung in Europe.


29 posted on 03/31/2011 11:38:01 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Dutchboy88
Certainly. The myth that there is some kind of "unified" thought process eminating from Rome about correct doctrine is routinely being debunked by the various elements of the organization. The real believers in Jesus Christ and the rest of the world is observing just how fragmented the thinking is within this self-aggrandizing organization.

Well thanks for those splendid observations.

You're happy that Rome is "fragmented" and I'm happy that it's less fragmented than yesterday, thanks to the bishops' decision.

Win-win.

30 posted on 03/31/2011 11:42:41 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: pgyanke
"I'm sorry my post was removed. Seems pretty clear to me how you think... and it deserved my response. I make no apologies for your abuse report. Remain in your much-beloved ignorance, if you choose. I'm done with your inane postings. Good day."

You may wish to get your facts straight before posting. First, I did not make an abuse report. You will have to look elsewhere as to how and why the Mod found your remarks. Second, you are repeating the problem that perhaps led to the prior removal. "Seems pretty clear how you think" and "...your much-beloved..." are statements of how I think. Please reconsider these comments. Third, you may certainly wish to be done with my remarks, however. That is entirely up to you.

31 posted on 03/31/2011 11:43:54 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: marshmallow
"Well thanks for those splendid observations.

You're happy that Rome is "fragmented" and I'm happy that it's less fragmented than yesterday, thanks to the bishops' decision."

You have no idea what makes me "happy", my FRiend. I simply said we are watching. Be cautious of claiming to know how I think. That is outside of the posting rules.

32 posted on 03/31/2011 11:48:05 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
You have no idea what makes me "happy", my FRiend. I simply said we are watching. Be cautious of claiming to know how I think. That is outside of the posting rules.

Well then, my most profound apologies for suggesting you might be happy......... :-)

What was I thinking?

And happy or unhappy, keep up the Catholic watchin'.

33 posted on 03/31/2011 12:15:05 PM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow; Dutch Boy

marshmallow:

Wow, “we are watching.” Is there some sort of “Calvinist KGB” [I am only asking a question]. If so, were they predestined to do so or is this one of those areas were Freewill sort of gets into the picture?

Well, regardless, as you said marshallow, glad they are watchin. Makes me sleep better at not that the “double predestined TULIP elect” are watching over us and keeping us on our toes.


34 posted on 03/31/2011 12:55:00 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Dutchboy88
Or a typical Roman Catholic who has been taught that the whole organization is built on using mystical tradition to lead them to “truth”. Very similar to sacerdotalism, mariolatry, absolution, penence, indulgences, and on and on. Actually, she sounds like the book fits right in with the rest of the cult-like doctrines of Rome.

"All superstition is cruel." -- John Calvin

35 posted on 03/31/2011 1:43:53 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"All superstition is cruel." -- John Calvin"

Perhaps John would lend this quote to the nun for her next book.

36 posted on 03/31/2011 5:55:24 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: marshmallow
The book, “Quest for the Living God: Mapping Frontiers in the Theology of God,” examines different understandings of God through the experiences of the poor and oppressed, Holocaust victims, Hispanics, women and people of religions other than Catholicism.

I presume this means she is giving another boring Marxist Feminist critique of tradition.

Believe me, I've worked with the ordinary folks who these elites look down on, from Okies to Africans, and they don't see their religion thru the eyes of feminist marxist nuns unless they're college graduates who learned to think that way by nuns or priests like this one.

Indeed, I've been given "meditations" on the "poor" that were so absurd that one wondered if these people thought poor people were their pets...

37 posted on 04/01/2011 2:54:27 AM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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