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‘Deep Down, I Knew There Was 1 Truth’ (OPC convert to Catholicism)
National Catholic Register ^ | 27-04-2011 | Brian Kemper

Posted on 04/28/2011 8:24:27 AM PDT by Cronos

The problem I had was that what I had been told about Catholicism was simply not true; it was distorted teaching from Protestants who did not bother to discover the truth. ....

Over the last several years, I have known deep down that the Catholic Church must be more than I thought it was. I fought myself and denied all the signs I was seeing. I was afraid; even though I knew deep down there can only be one truth, I would always find something to dismiss Catholicism

At this time I had been a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church for almost 10 years.. I had also been in a constant journey for God’s truth, studying his word as well as church history. The problem I began to see, however, was that my church had no authority for how it interpreted Scriptures. We claimed to be sola scriptura, and yet to hold office in the church you had to subscribe also to the full truth of the Westminster Confession of Faith

(Excerpt) Read more at ncregister.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholic; opc; orthodoxpresbyterian
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Interesting statement The problem I began to see, however, was that my church had no authority for how it interpreted Scriptures. We claimed to be sola scriptura, and yet to hold office in the church you had to subscribe also to the full truth of the Westminster Confession of Faith
1 posted on 04/28/2011 8:24:30 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

We protestants love you.


2 posted on 04/28/2011 8:28:36 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Cronos

bump...


3 posted on 04/28/2011 8:29:18 AM PDT by pgkdan ( "Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine / There's always laughter and good red wine / ...Belloc)
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To: Cronos

A sign that the Protestant are coming home.


4 posted on 04/28/2011 8:29:25 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Cronos

and forgive you.


5 posted on 04/28/2011 8:30:01 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Taglines for sale or rent. Quotes for fifty cents.)
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To: Cronos
Bryan Kemper is a great guy. I would read his entries on Stand True, and think to myself, he sounds so Catholic in everything he says and does; why is this guy not a Catholic? So this was very good news. Now on to Jill Stanek; another pro-life jewel that is not [yet] a Catholic.
There is no stopping abortion without an ocean of grace from Jesus Christ. No way will human means stop abortion. The principal source of this grace is the Holy Eucharist. --Fr. John A. Hardon

6 posted on 04/28/2011 8:32:14 AM PDT by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: DManA

And we of orthodoxy part of the One Holy Apostolic Church (Catholics, Orthodox, Orientals, Assyrians) love all our brothers in Christ, the traditional Lutherans, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. We join with you in rejecting the anti-Christian groups like the OPC and the Westboro BAptist Club.


7 posted on 04/28/2011 8:33:00 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

We protestants also pray for you.


8 posted on 04/28/2011 8:33:56 AM PDT by MeganC (NO WAR FOR OIL! ........except when a Democrat's in charge.)
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To: Cronos

We pray for the full unity of all Christian believers just as Christ prayed.


9 posted on 04/28/2011 8:36:10 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Cronos

What I find interesting is that this person did not want to subscribe to the Westminster Confession, but rather chose a far more restrictive set of confessions in the form of the catechisms. Futher, the author does not go into which articles of the Westminster Confession they have a disagreement or find incorrect.


10 posted on 04/28/2011 8:37:37 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: MeganC
Thank you! Let us pray together to our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ and share in what we believe in

Nicene Creed
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.

Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt.

Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est.

Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris.

Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit.

Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas.

Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.

Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen. 

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end. 

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen. 

you personally may use the lower case in the maroon line, but that is your interpretation :) and does not detract from the fact that we share the basic beliefs.


11 posted on 04/28/2011 8:39:32 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: taxcontrol
Actually, he said that he wanted to focus on his joy of entering The Church rather than bitterness at leaving the OPC (which as it's ex-ruling elder says is no longer christian). However, the key point regarding the Westminster Confession that he brings up is We claimed to be sola scriptura, and yet to hold office in the church you had to subscribe also to the full truth of the Westminster Confession of Faith -- so if they had to hold to sola scriptura, why also HAD to subscribe to the Westminster Confession?
12 posted on 04/28/2011 8:43:07 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: DManA

We Catholics love you, too.


13 posted on 04/28/2011 8:44:00 AM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Cronos; All

I have a question for your Catholics:

A 20 year old boy/man has a baby out of wedlock with his girlfriend. They go to the Catholic church to get the baby baptized, but the church makes him first go through/perform/whatever a sacrament - Confirmation! Yes, that’s right, he missed being confirmed as a kid, now they’re making him do so now. OK, fine.

But who cares about that when the real sacrament at hand, marriage, is totally ignored! The kid and his baby mama are still sleeping together, living together on and off, passing the kid around from relative to relative for baby sitting, etc. There is absoltely no committment to a family or the parents to each other. While marriage does not ensure that such a commitment will actually play out, at least it’s a step in the right direction, and signifies that such a commitment SHOULD exist. It would have at least been a good start!

So what on earth did “confirmation” do to enhance this family? And to what was the kid confirming? Certainly not his Christian faith, because I believe even Catholics feel that fornication is still wrong (although my argument with people here a few weeks ago did not give me that impression).

Any justification for why this would occur would be appreciated.


14 posted on 04/28/2011 8:48:41 AM PDT by Joann37
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To: Cronos
I finally started looking past the Reformation only to find a huge part of history that I was ignoring; it was like a light suddenly switched on and I saw past the 1500s and the Reformation. I started to look at Church authority; there had to be one true authority that Christ established on earth to keep the teaching of his Church throughout time.

Where have we heard that line before???

15 posted on 04/28/2011 8:50:11 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good-Pope Leo XIII)
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To: Joann37; All

“I have a question for your Catholics:”

Should read “you” Catholics.

Sorry, the “your” sounds confrontational.


16 posted on 04/28/2011 8:51:19 AM PDT by Joann37
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To: Joann37
Ok, your post is a bit incoherent

but the main thing is that if your child is to be brought up Christian, at least one parent must be Christian and both must assent to this. Being confirmed is not that simple, he has to learn the basics of the faith.

The two are still living in sin but now the thing is that the father will KNOW he is living in sin.

What does it do to enhance the family? Just this -- the father has no excuse for not confessing and repenting and marrying his girlfriend. For the child, an even more important thing -- the child is baptised and since the child is a BABY, there must be someone to assent to this, and this is one of the parents, but one of these has GOT to be a confirmed Catholic, otherwise no baptism for the baby.

17 posted on 04/28/2011 8:53:02 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Biggirl
A sign that the Protestant are coming home.

A sign that the Catholic Church is hemmoraging members, and needs to trumpet every conversion to mask the problem.

"Roman Catholics, the largest U.S. church with a reported 69 million members, start counting baptized infants as members and often don’t remove people until they die. Most membership surveys don’t actually count who’s in the pews on Sunday. To be disenrolled, Catholics must write a bishop to ask that their baptisms be revoked..."
....it is possible, for example, to be born Catholic, married Methodist, die Lutheran and still be listed as a member of the 1 billion-member Roman Catholic Church....
"...The Catholic understanding of membership is that a person becomes a member upon baptism and remains a member for life," Gautier said. "Whether you show up at church or not is not what determines whether you're a member."

-- from the thread When It Comes to Church Membership Numbers, the Devil's in the Details
.... Catholics still account for just under a quarter of the population, as they have for many years. That's because the surge in Hispanic immigration has offset the steady decline of white Catholics. Roughly 2 in 3 Latino immigrants are Catholic, according to Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum. He also notes that Hispanic fertility rates are higher than those of white Americans, ensuring more Latino Catholic growth in the United States.
.... from the thread Does the American Catholic Church Have a Numbers Problem?
Catholics are leaving the faith at four times the rate that newcomers are joining. "Religious change is not simply a function of retention; it's a function of recruitment. It's both sides of the ledger," explains the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life's Greg Smith. "In no other religious groups we looked at did we see this high a ratio people leaving versus joining."
.... from the thread Does the American Catholic Church Have a Numbers Problem?
No other religion in the United States has lost more members to other faiths, or to no faith at all, than Catholicism, according to the new survey released by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. The survey, conducted in 2007, found that 31 percent of Americans were raised Catholic, but less than 25 per cent of them still identify as Catholic. Roughly 10 percent of all Americans have strayed from Catholic roots, the study reported.....
....“It’s our mission to evangelize and we are failing that,” said [The Rev. Allan Figueroa Deck, S.J., executive director of cultural diversity for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops], explaining that the term ‘evangelize’ includes the “conversion of the human heart and the promotion of social justice.”

.... from the thread Study: Catholics losing the faith
The Hidden Exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants
Bishops to the Left of Senate Dems on Immigration
Bare Minimum Catholicism
When It Comes to Church Membership Numbers, the Devil's in the Details
Fewer receive sacraments
Are Catholics Losing the Faith?
Church-Going Among U.S. Catholics Slides to Tie Protestants
Roman Catholics total 64 million in U.S. ["counting Catholics is really more art than science"]
The Incredible Shrinking Catholic Church [Kenneth C. Jones, 2003]
The Incredible Shrinking Catholic Church [Paul Gorell, 2009]
US conversions to Catholicism plummet 9% in 2008
Catholic Church in France may cut jobs
Catholic Priest, the Rev. Bob Begin, Challenges Bishop Richard Lennon on Church Closings
Vatican hit by economic downturn: official figures
Church pays heavy price as America takes note of a scandal
18 posted on 04/28/2011 8:55:30 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Joann37

That is why folks like these need to be prayed for, for true conversion to Christ and to repentence.


19 posted on 04/28/2011 8:55:36 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Joann37
so simplifying -- Baptism for an infant means both parents must assent to this and at least one if not both must be confirmed Catholics (it's of course different for adults who do not need their parents to speak for them).

Confirmation means full entry into the Church as a knowing, acting member, without this, you are technically unaware of your duties etc. and you cannot get married in Church either.

The father may continue living in sin, but know he has no excuse that he was not aware of this, so hopefullly it leads to a change in him. We should pray for such folks

20 posted on 04/28/2011 8:55:47 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: taxcontrol
What I find interesting is that this person did not want to subscribe to the Westminster Confession, but rather chose a far more restrictive set of confessions in the form of the catechisms.

I'm not sure that's the way to look at it. To me it sounds like he's saying he thought there was a contradiction between claiming a "sola scriptura" standard AND the Westminster Confession as a another standard.

It's not that he found anything in particular wrong with the content of the Westminster Confession itself. It was that saying Bible ALONE PLUS Westminster Confession struck him as having a kind of self-incompatibility.

Maybe I'm projecting. It was something SORT of like that that persuaded me finally the leave the Episcopal Church. Particular teachings prompted me to look around, but it was the manner in which those teachings were arrived at, adopted, and discarded that persuaded me the Episcopalians simply could not be right.

21 posted on 04/28/2011 8:56:01 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Ah, alex, the OPC really does hate Christians doesn’t it. However, the OPC keeps lying


22 posted on 04/28/2011 8:57:33 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Alex Murphy
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The Steady Stream Home [of people converting to the Catholic Church] Marcus Grodi
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The Journey Home - 4/11/11 - Brian Robbins Convert from Judaism
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The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert
Church Is Still Attracting Converts [Jim Anderson]

23 posted on 04/28/2011 8:58:14 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Alex Murphy
It’s pretty clear
to anyone reading this thread
that when the Church
criticizes your sect,
those criticisms decry
your sect’s perversions and
your sect’s practices
and beliefs
that are anti-Scriptural,

whereas the “strong language”
you seem to employ is simply name-calling.

There’s never ever ever ever ever a core to your argument.

No discussion of
your sect’s faith,
your sect’s practices,
your sect’s beliefs,
your sect’s perspectives,
your sect’s ideology,
your sect’s theology,
etc.

There’s hardly even a mention of your sect.
Are you afraid of your sect’s reputation?
Your sect’s history?
Your sect’s incoherence?
Most people are delighted
to share with others
the community that helps
them to experience and know true faith in God.

But with you, all we get is blather. The OPC is a rabidly anti-Semitic group that has lately been trying to promote it's anti-Israeli message on FR with posts like:

  1. Easter greetings from Israel - a hoax video aiming to smear Jews and that is as disgusting as the Protocols of the Elders
  2. Jerusalem, the have-not whore
  3. Israel -- where there is a comparison of Biblical Israel to Modern Israel -- and you can guess it's not a pleasant one
  4. All Israel will be Saved, but not all Israel
  5. Jerusalem, Mother of all Harlots
  6. The restoration and conversion of Israel -- this soon descends into a fre for all anti-semitic fest

What is disgusting is that this group (the OPC/PCA) pretends to be Christian while spouting it's hatred for Jews and Christians alike

24 posted on 04/28/2011 8:59:54 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Alex Murphy
Let us take the Nicene Creed and compare with the OPC's beliefs:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen.

So far, the OPC is on track.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.

Well, not really; they think of Jesus as a lesser God than the Father. The OPC says that:

Jesus is God's doorway through the wall. God appointed his Son to be the substitute for those whom he would save. Jesus loved the Father with every fiber of his being. He obeyed the Father's holy will completely. He died on Calvary's cross as the atoning sacrifice, bearing all the sins of his people. He rose again from the dead and was exalted to the place of glory at the Father's side.

For the OPC, Jesus is a lesser or messenger god to God the Father, much like Mercury was the messenger of Jupiter in the Roman Pantheon of gods. This is not Christian.

As well, The OPC says that:

Christ is, in reality, the one true worshiper.[5] Our worship is a participation in his. Further, our worship in Christ is by the Holy Spirit.

Here, the OPC says that Christ worships God the Father, and the Holy Spirit worships Christ. Not Trinitarian, but polytheist.

Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary,

Here, they more or less agree with Christianity.

and became man.

Here, they depart from Christianity inasmuch as Christianity believes that Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time.

The OPC says:

"The Son of Man"

Jesus affirms that he is "the Son of Man." This was his favorite self-designation. The Gospels mention his calling himself the Son of Man some eighty times. William White, Jr., explains that this title reflects Daniel 7:13, where the "Son of Man" is one to whom is given universal and eternal authority, glory, and sovereign dominion. He is one from among men to whom is given divine prerogatives. Since only God can receive such prerogatives, the Son of Man is a God-man (Daniel 10:16). Thus, the Son of Man, Jesus, descended from heaven (John 3:13) and was dependent on God, as He had nowhere to lay His head (Matt. 8:20). He exercises an authoritative and redemptive mission (John 3:14). He is the universal Lord (Matt. 28:18; cf. Dan. 7:13-14) and has total responsibility and authority for judging the world (Matt. 13:41-42; 19:28). (Theological and Grammatical Phrasebook of the Bible, p. 102 [Moody Press, 1984]. Cf. Geerhardus Vos, The Self-Disclosure of Jesus [Eerdmans, 1954].)

So when Jesus calls himself the Son of Man, he does much more than identify himself as having a human nature. He reveals himself as God incarnated as the Last Adam, the true Man, the Man of God's right hand, the Messiah, the King, the Savior, Lord, and Judge! Compare Daniel 7:9-14 and Revelation 1:12-18. It's an amazing claim.

It sure is. It affirms that the OPC believes that Jesus is a lesser God - is totally dependent upon God and therefore is not the God of Christianity, but a messenger or harbinger, much like John the Baptist was for Jesus.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Okay in this section.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

Here we come to a major parting of the ways between the OPC and Christianity. The OPC says that:

The resurrection of the dead in general, therefore, is primarily a judicial act of God."[13] Stated simply, the resurrection is not the penultimate event prior to the final judgment; the resurrection is the final judgment.

This little piece of paganism is the source for so many of the nonChristian pronouncements of OPC adherents. Can you imagine a greater departure from the Gospel message of Jesus? Resurrection is a replacement for Judgement and if you are resurrected, you will not go to hell!!!! Now, what about those going to hell? More on that later...

and his kingdom will have no end.

They do agree that Jesus will reign forever.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

See above. The OPC believes that Jesus worships God the Father and the Holy Spirit worships Jesus.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

The OPC really likes its new Prophets like Machen - if it weren't for Paul, their theology would consist of Isaiah with a splash of Jeremiah.

25 posted on 04/28/2011 9:00:57 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

“so if they had to hold to sola scriptura, why also HAD to subscribe to the Westminster Confession?”

Because it’s in there. The Westminster is a topical confession, and proclaims it is subject to Scripture. There is no contradiction.


26 posted on 04/28/2011 9:01:46 AM PDT by esquirette ("Our hearts are restless until they find rest in Thee." ~ Augustine)
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To: Alex Murphy
And of course, dear Alex, your own cult, the OPC is at 10,000 adults and pederasts, slowly shrinking and heading for its third and final split, because it is a non-Christian, anti-Christian cult that preach:

This is what an ex-Ruling Elder of the OPC says about this group:

From the Trinity Foundation


27 posted on 04/28/2011 9:03:38 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: esquirette
Because it’s in there. The Westminster is a topical confession

So why hold on to it if you have sola scriptura? Shouldn't the minister just say "I hold to SS" and not "oh and also the WC"?

28 posted on 04/28/2011 9:05:01 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Gee it’s good to have you back posting!

Kemper as all protestants do, turns over questions on theology and Sacred Scripture that can never be answered where in places history is wiped out, then stunted, then revised, by first the heretics, followed by the Reformed Church of Individual Interpretation, which by necessity actually has to become the faith. Naturally it spreads but then divides, coughing up the various sects located on every corner. Decades of “been there” has brought so many of us Home, no longer a trickle but a flow.


29 posted on 04/28/2011 9:06:05 AM PDT by RitaOK
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To: Cronos

I watched Kingdom of Heaven again last night. Interesting take on religion vs Christianity.


30 posted on 04/28/2011 9:10:51 AM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Alex Murphy
"A sign that the Catholic Church is hemmoraging members, and needs to trumpet every conversion to mask the problem."

Keep telling yourself that, Alex. I'm sure you believe it and you probably have a group of followers at the local OPC cake & coffee meet & greet you can convince of it too, but the facts are just not with you on it. The Catholic Church is growing and the OPC is dying out.

Google is a great tool for those of you who have to find experts who agree with you. Sure you can find and post anecdotes and flawed studies and polls that support your beliefs but that still doesn't make it true.

31 posted on 04/28/2011 9:11:14 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Cronos
We join with you in rejecting the anti-Christian groups like the OPC

Do you have some piece of information that makes you believe OPC should be called "anti-Christian", or lumped in with Westboro "Baptist", which is a church started by a guy for his family?

32 posted on 04/28/2011 9:15:06 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Cronos

Sorry if my writing was incoherent to you. Please let me know what you did not understand.

But I don’t see what good confirmation does if the kid immediately goes right on with his sin! There is no modicum of repentance whatsoever - he overtly lived a life of sin, and is fine continuing to do so. The way you define confirmation is that it’s completion of an educational course - he supposedly now KNOWS of his ways, and that’s it - even an attempt at repentance is not required?

If that’s what Catholics teach today, I’m glad I left the faith. While the most liberal Protestant churches would probably agree with your rationale, I believe most Bible-believing churches would at least try to get the kids to marry in hopes of raising a child in a stable home. God even provides Joseph and Mary as an example!

I Cor 6:18 “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”

The kids may actually not even know that God CLEARLY spells this out in His Word, and it is up to the church to tell them this! Going along with today’s societal sin is not the way the church should operate!


33 posted on 04/28/2011 9:15:15 AM PDT by Joann37
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To: Cronos; Alex Murphy
"Ah, alex, the OPC really does hate Christians doesn’t it. However, the OPC keeps lying"

....and dying.

The loss of one OPC member to the Catholic Church (1/20,000) is statistically the same as 60,000 Catholics becoming OPC (60,000/1,200,000,000). That would increase their total numbers by 300%! (waiting for the narrow gate, its not about numbers, except when numbers favor us counter argument). Apparently "maff" isn't favoring them either.

34 posted on 04/28/2011 9:19:59 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Cronos

So why hold on to it if you have sola scriptura? Shouldn’t the minister just say “I hold to SS” and not “oh and also the WC”?

________________________

It’s doctrine. Keeps everybody on the same page. They do not contradict. Scripture is the plumb line against which all is held. The Confessions state topical doctrine so we do not have to reinvent the theological wheel.


35 posted on 04/28/2011 9:30:14 AM PDT by esquirette ("Our hearts are restless until they find rest in Thee." ~ Augustine)
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To: Joann37

The innocent infant is baptized, thankfully. The ordinary Catholic Baptismal Rite of infants and youngsters calls on the parents or guardian and the properly selected god parents to commit to raising the child Catholic. To validate this commitment at least one or both parents/guardian must be Catholic, meaning they are “confirmed” in the Faith prior to baby’s baptism. (Dispensations from the Rites are made only in the event of imminent death of baby where the emergency trumps the status of parents.)


36 posted on 04/28/2011 9:32:07 AM PDT by RitaOK
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To: esquirette
"It’s doctrine. Keeps everybody on the same page."

So you are saying that Protestantism needs some king of central authority to interpret Scripture, kind of like a Magesterium, but not as comprehensive or "Catholic"?

37 posted on 04/28/2011 9:33:15 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

So you are saying that Protestantism needs some king of central authority to interpret Scripture, kind of like a Magesterium, but not as comprehensive or “Catholic”?

_______________________________

Nope. I am saying that the Westminster Confession is a topical restatement of doctrine as found in Scripture, with Scripture as the final authority.


38 posted on 04/28/2011 9:41:31 AM PDT by esquirette ("Our hearts are restless until they find rest in Thee." ~ Augustine)
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To: Natural Law; Alex Murphy

“A sign that the Catholic Church is hemmoraging members, and needs to trumpet every conversion to mask the problem.”

Alex is stuck in the Western slant on all things Church. As protestants must, their universe has to be kept small. The ebb and flow of numbers has to be of great account to them for their $urvival$, forgetting that the many will say, “Lord, Lord, I cast out demons in your Name”, but alas, only a remnant will be saved even of the Church. Lord have Mercy on us sinners!


39 posted on 04/28/2011 9:44:10 AM PDT by RitaOK
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To: Cronos

Yeah,, that’s what Jesus said. Baptize babies,,, it’s just a ritual without assent of the one being baptized. And Jesus never describes anything like the roman church. It resembles a highly legalistic feudal system, which appeals too some personality types. But its fair to say its an enormous contrast to the organization Jesus built while he was here.


40 posted on 04/28/2011 9:44:46 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: Cronos; Alex Murphy
I am connfused on the last topic of your post. I understand that there is an argument over OPC doctrine within the church, and it appears to be centered around Van Til and his apparent view that justification is by faith plus works.

And in fact, those fighting against the "errors" they see in their OPC church, such as the man you quote, have issued proclamations against this wrongward direction in the leadership.

But that wrongward direction appears to be more toward the Catholic view. For example, the OPC condemnation proclamation contained this:

We repudiate the expressions of the doctrine of justification contained in the North American documents "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" and "The Gift of Salvation," and the European document, "The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification," all written and endorsed by those who, in the interest of organizational unity, are willing to compromise between the Roman Church-State and the Reformation. In these documents Rome actually concedes nothing, while the Biblical and Reformed doctrine of justification by faith alone is either abandoned or ignored.
I looked through your list of reasons why OPC was a non-christian cult, and find I disagree with most of your opinions. I don't believe babies, even unborn babies, are automatically saved. I believe God chooses who He will save, and I believe in original sin, and that no one can come to the Father, except through Jesus.

I find it perverse to argue that aborted babies all get to go to heaven. Heaven is for all eternity, as is Hell. If you tell me that aborted babies all go to heaven, while born babies have a good chance of going to hell, why wouldn't we abort ALL the babies? What's 70-90 years of life on earth compared to eternity? And why scripture teaches that all babies are saved?

It seems odd that you would dismiss a church as "anti-christian" for not believing that the babies of non-christians have a better chance (i.e. 100% chance) of getting into heaven than the older children of good Catholic families, but that is where the argument leads, if you insist that all babies go to heaven.

I also believe a man is damned or saved by the wishes of God. If God chooses some vessels to honor, and some to dishonor, that is His choice, and Paul makes this clear.

I agree with your rejection of the idea that the OPC (or the OPC and PCA, as you have somehow decided to lump a mainstream conservative church in with your rants about the OPC) are not the sole recipients of eternal life. I don't know that the OPC teaches that; I am sure they must teach that they are the "right" beliefs, just as the Catholic Church teaches that they are the "right" Church.

I mostly disagree with your complaint about Prayer. Since I believe Jesus is God (and don't see your argument about the OPC discussion of the trinity to either contradict my beliefs, or suggest that their is a hierarchy of greater and lesser gods), I can say that you should pray only to God, and sidestep the question of whether you can pray to Jesus, as opposed to 'In Jesus Name'.

I don't know if OPC teaches solely from Paul and Calvin and Manchin. I know that my PCA church pastor preaches through many books of the Bible, we are working through Leviticus now. I have a hard time believing the OPC pastors ignore all scripture except the post-gospel writings.

My point is that I disagree with most of your list of "anti-christian" things, and it appears that the big argument against the OPC church, it's big error, seems to be in slipping into a "faith plus works" doctrine, and trying to find common ground with Catholicism on justification. Obviously there are other big issues in the church, maybe Alex can discuss them at more detail since I'm not OPC.

41 posted on 04/28/2011 9:47:28 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Cronos
I wouldn't say I hold to "Sola Scriptura". That wouldn't mean anything. A church needs to know that it's leaders are largely on the same page as to how they interpret the scriptures. The WCF is not an addition to scripture, extra things you don't find in scripture but are required to be believed or accepted. It is a set of interpretations of scripture, providing a doctrinal basis for common faith and worship. In some ways, the SS argument paints over the need for interpretation. But I see the main point of SS is that in a church that practices SS, you won't here a doctrine justified by saying "It's what Calvin told us". It will be "Calvin explains from these scriptural references that". Is Mary a virgin still? Does the bread and wine literally become the body and blood? Should we pray to someone other than God? These are all reasonable doctrines, based on the revelation of church leaders, but not from explanation of scripture, but extensions. Like the idea that babies all go to heaven -- you can argue that the totality of scriptural descriptions of God lead you to conclude that God couldn't condemn babies to hell, but you have to make that a leap of faith, because there's nothing in scripture that says babies who die get to go to heaven without having to accept Christ or be baptised (if you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation).

Last point on babies going to heaven: In order to believe that babies all go to heaven, you must accept that God can save someone without giving that person a choice one way or another. As christians we of course love the choice of heaven; but forcing someone to go to heaven when they didn't choose DOES mean that God exercises his own judgement, without regard to the thoughts of men, at least in that instance.

I happen to believe that we are all children, and that God treats us all in the same manner, so God can choose to save babies, and he can choose to save adults, and frankly it's all the same to God because he is saving "souls", not "souls at some particular point in time". And if God saves me, I will accept Jesus, because God will give me that capacity, which without his saving Grace I would never have.

42 posted on 04/28/2011 9:58:16 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Obviously there are other big issues in the church, maybe Alex can discuss them at more detail since I'm not OPC.

I wouldn't know. I'm not OPC.

43 posted on 04/28/2011 10:02:12 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Joann37

The young father is a sinner in rebellion against God and the Church, and himself. However, somewhere he remains in fear of the Lord enough to get the child baptized. Paul the Apostle himself spoke on his own divide, where he writes of his inner man who wants to do good but in the outer flesh does not. This is but the sinful state of man until our Lord returns.

The Confirmation is a Rite, not an educational process. The Confirmation Rite of the young father came only after his Confession, in required order. We know not what he confessed to do we? But he was forgiven and then confirmed. Will he sin again? Of course. (As do all Christian sinners.)

There are also impediments to Faith that are taken into consideration in Holy Mother Church, such as abject ignorance, mental incompetence, debilitating circumstances, but the Church hears the confession of a soul, not of a perfect man. We know not the abilities or disabilities of this young father you are observing, but the priest does.


44 posted on 04/28/2011 10:04:00 AM PDT by RitaOK
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To: Alex Murphy; Natural Law; Cronos

I apologize. I’m used to a lot of heat and disagreement on doctrinal issues in these forums, but I just assumed that if two freepers called you a member of OPC, it was because you were a member.

Why, Cronos and Natural Law, do you claim Alex is a member of the OPC church, if he denies it? How does that strengthen your arguments, or make people more likely to believe other things you say?


45 posted on 04/28/2011 10:06:53 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: esquirette
"Nope. I am saying that the Westminster Confession is a topical restatement of doctrine as found in Scripture, with Scripture as the final authority."

Surely an "Esquirette" must recognize a distinction without a difference and admit the Catholic Magesterium is essential too. Either that or admit that Sola Scriptura is a contradiction must otherwise rely solely on the tradition of self interpretation which is itself not scriptural.

46 posted on 04/28/2011 10:11:20 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: CharlesWayneCT; Cronos; Alex Murphy
"Why, Cronos and Natural Law, do you claim Alex is a member of the OPC church,...

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, poops like a duck .......

47 posted on 04/28/2011 10:14:22 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

Sola scriptura means scripture is the final authority. It does not mean that great minds are not able to come together and restate the doctrines of orthodoxy.


48 posted on 04/28/2011 10:18:43 AM PDT by esquirette ("Our hearts are restless until they find rest in Thee." ~ Augustine)
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To: MeganC

You Protestants also spread hate and lies about us. Perhaps not all of you, but enough of you on this site.


49 posted on 04/28/2011 10:37:37 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Copts, Nazis, Franks and Beans - what a public school education puts in your head.)
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To: esquirette; RitaOK

If “sola scriptura” is final authority, why are so many tenets of the Catholic faith in such departure from the Bible? The discussion I’m in, above, deals with “confirmation” and infant baptism, neither of which appear in the Bible? Where did THAT come from?

Baptism of people of age is certainly Scriptural; it denotes commitment to Christ, and the submerging process itself indicates the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. But being sprinkled as an infant? It just shows that the parents have dedicated their child. The infant itself knows nothing of what’s going on.


50 posted on 04/28/2011 10:39:04 AM PDT by Joann37
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