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Beating Private Judgment’s Dead Horse
Catholic Culture ^ | May 6, 2011 | Dr. Jeff Mirus

Posted on 05/06/2011 1:28:46 PM PDT by NYer

OK, I admit it. I’m into this topic right now (see, in the past week, this and that). I had another exchange with a Protestant who believes that the meaning of Scripture is fairly plain, and—since Christ promised he would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth (Jn 16:13)—then with a little application and study, we can decide rightly what the Word of God means all by ourselves.

This is a common theory, and I haven’t been able to make any headway with my correspondent in raising the question of how we handle disagreements among those who are equally empowered by the Holy Spirit. Among other comments, he offers this clearly sincere paragraph:

If I cannot assert what scripture means then why study it and find its meaning? I have good warrant to prefer my understandings of Scripture because mine are based on my study of the Word and I took the time to learn the meanings. I did not get them from some institution that has bias built into its structures of teaching. God forbid that the RCC change a teaching since they can never be wrong by definition.

Well, I won’t keep you. But today I’m simply wondering which of the following is easier to believe:

  1. The Holy Spirit guarantees that each of us will properly understand the truths of Revelation on our own, though this idea didn’t develop until the 16th century and we all disagree with each other constantly about these truths, even after significant study.
     
  2. The Holy Spirit guarantees that Peter and his successors will not defect in Faith and further guarantees them the power to confirm the Faith in others (see, for example, Lk 22:32), given that this is what the early Church demonstrably believed and that Peter and his successors have never contradicted each other over a 2,000 year period.

I know, I know, it’s a tough one.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; protestant; scripture
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To: Salvation
Second leg — that handed down person to person orally and written down by the Early Church Fathers — Holy Traidtion

You guys have failed miserably when it comes to showing or telling us what that oral tradition is that was passed on down from the Apostles to your religion...

Not a single excerpt...Therefore, it doesn't exist...You have a two legged stool...And it keeps falling over...

21 posted on 05/07/2011 2:27:32 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
Yes, Very sad. The 3 legged stool is not found in scripture.

It seems Roman epologists always talk in theories and hypotheticals. Self-declaring infalibilty, certainty, tradition, while ignoring any details. Offcourse, these grandiose claims are meant to impress, but "the devils in the details".

Romanists cannot deliver ANY apostolic tradition/doctrine, NOT found in scripture.

Infalibility, a self proclaimed attribute, mostly used to elevate Marian doctrine and a handful of biblical verses, the rest of scripture being open to interpretation by all (as long as it does not conflict with existing doctrine). All grand self-crowned titles, giving comfort to those who decide to trust Rome, instead of the Scriptures.

22 posted on 05/07/2011 7:57:02 AM PDT by bkaycee
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To: Iscool
"To claim your magisterium is equal to the best doctors is a scary thought...Unless you are referring to witch doctors...

I wouldn't expect anyone with such obviously limited capabilities to understand.

23 posted on 05/07/2011 8:24:09 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: bkaycee

So where is sola scriptura found in scripture?

When one does not have all the facts and/or resources can one really make a sound judgment?

Probably not.


24 posted on 05/07/2011 8:35:12 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Iscool
Only one of several references.

You belive in Scripture, correct?
 
Then why don't you believe this?
 

John 21: (We'll be using the KJV today to keep things on even footing): "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

 

The Bible Itself declares that it doesn't contain everything.


25 posted on 05/07/2011 8:38:45 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: bkaycee; Iscool
Did the Council of Jerusalem get removed from your Bible?

Protestatnts tend to look at this as just a confrontation, but it was actually the first Council (magisterium included--although is was not named as such) in the Bible.

It is the Decision of the Holy Spirit and Us….On the Council of Jerusalem...(Catholic Caucus)
A Timeline of Catholic Church history, 1-500 A.D. (includes Councils, Canon of the Bible)
MAJOR COUNCILS OF THE CHURCH - 1st Council of Nicaea - 325 A.D. (1st in a series)
MAJOR COUNCILS OF THE CHURCH - 1st Council of Constantinople - 381 A.D. (2nd in a series)
MAJOR CHURCH COUNCILS - The Council Of Chalcedon - 451 A.D.

26 posted on 05/07/2011 8:44:08 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
The Bible Itself declares that it doesn't contain everything.

But the Bible says it contains everything pertinent to our Salvation...It was written so that we can know we have eternal life, right now...

There apparently is a reason Jesus felt we had enough information with what He gave us...No where did Jesus suggest that some group later on would be able to add to what Jesus did and certainly not to any thing that He taught...

And the fact that you guys don't have any thing at all in the way of 'handed down tradition' pretty much proves nothing was left that Jesus intended we should know...

27 posted on 05/07/2011 9:19:51 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Salvation
Protestatnts tend to look at this as just a confrontation, but it was actually the first Council (magisterium included--although is was not named as such) in the Bible.

And it ended when the words of God were committed to writing...Those things were hashed out and we have the written record...

There is no room nor authority for more councils...A prayerful study of the scriptures on this side of the veil of the Catholic religion can reveal that to you...

28 posted on 05/07/2011 9:24:56 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Natural Law
I wouldn't expect anyone with such obviously limited capabilities to understand.

That's all you got, eh???

29 posted on 05/07/2011 9:26:11 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Salvation

So where does Jesus mention anything extra scriptural to determine doctrine binding upon the church?


30 posted on 05/07/2011 10:37:51 AM PDT by bkaycee
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To: Salvation

Do you mean Act 15, council in JERUSALEM, presided over by JAMES?


31 posted on 05/07/2011 10:48:27 AM PDT by bkaycee
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LOL! And where does Saint Paul go repeatedly to report on his missions?
 
________________________________________________________________________
 

This table is adapted from White, From Jesus to Christianity.[43] Note that the matching of Paul's travels in the Acts and the travels in his Epistles is done for the reader's convenience and is not approved of by all scholars.

Acts Epistles
  • First visit to Jerusalem[Acts 9:26-27]
    • "after many days" of Damascus conversion
    • preaches openly in Jerusalem with Barnabas
    • meets apostles
  • There is debate over whether Paul's visit in Galatians 2 refers to the visit for famine relief (Acts 11:30, 12:25) or the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15). If it refers to the former, then this was the trip made "after an interval of fourteen years" (Gal. 2:1).
  • Another[48] visit to Jerusalem[Gal. 2:1-10]
    • 14 years later (after Damascus conversion?)
    • with Barnabas and Titus
    • possibly the "Council of Jerusalem"
    • Paul agrees to "remember the poor"
    • followed by confrontation with Peter and Barnabas in Antioch[Gal. 2:11-14]
  • Apparently unmentioned.
  • Fifth visit to Jerusalem[Acts 21:17ff]
    • after an absence of several years[Acts 24:17]
    • to bring gifts for the poor and to present offerings
    • Paul arrested
  • Another[49] visit to Jerusalem[50]
    • to deliver the collection for the poor

32 posted on 05/07/2011 2:11:47 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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