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Comparing Christianity and the New Paganism
Integrated Catholic Life ^ | March 10, 2011 | Dr. Peter Kreeft

Posted on 05/09/2011 11:11:10 AM PDT by bronxville

Comparing Christianity and the New Paganism

The most serious challenge for Christianity today isn't one of the other great religions of the world, such as Islam or Buddhism.

Nor is it simple atheism, which has no depth, no mass appeal, no staying power. Rather, it's a religion most of us think is dead. That religion is paganism — and it is very much alive.

Paganism is simply the natural gravity of the human spirit, the line of least resistance, religion in its fallen state.

The "old" paganism came from the country. Indeed, the very word "paganism" comes from the Latin pagani, "from the fields" or "country-dwellers." Country people were the last to be converted to Christianity during the Roman Empire, the last to abandon their ancestral roots in pre-Christian belief. Today, country people are the last to abandon Christianity for the "new" paganism, which flourishes in the cities.

The old paganism was a far greater thing than the new. In fact, Chesterton brilliantly summarized the entire spiritual history of the world in this one sentence:

"Paganism was the biggest thing in the world, and Christianity was bigger and everything since has been comparatively small."

There were at least three elements in the old paganism that made it great. And all three are missing in the new paganism

The first is the sense of piety (pietas), the natural religious instinct to respect something greater than yourself, the humility that instinctively realizes man's subordinate place in the great scheme of things. "Moderation" or "temperance" went along with this, especially in classical civilization. The motto "nothing too much" was inscribed over every temple to Apollo, along with "know thyself."

This natural modesty and respect contrast sharply with the arrogant attitude of the new pagan in the modern West. Only Oriental societies still preserve a traditional reverence. The West does not understand this, and thinks it quaint at best and hypocritical at worst.

The new paganism is the virtual divinization of man, the religion of man as the new God. One of its popular slogans, repeated often by Christians, is "the infinite value of the human person." Its aim is building a heaven on earth, a secular salvation. Another word for the new paganism is humanism, the religion that will not lift up its head to the heavens but stuffs the heavens into its head.

A second ingredient of the old paganism that's missing in the new is an objective morality, what C.S. Lewis called "the Tao" in his prophetic little classic "The Abolition of Man." To pre-modern man, pagan as well as Christian, moral rules were absolute: unyielding and unquestionable. They were also objective: discovered rather than created, given in the nature of things.

This has all changed. The new paganism is situational and pragmatic. It says we are the makers of moral values. It not only finds the moral law written in the human heart but also by the human heart. It acknowledges no divine revelation, thus no one's values can be judged to be wrong.

The new paganism's favorite Scripture is "judge not." The only judgment is the judgment against judging. The only thing wrong is the idea that there is a real wrong.

The only thing to feel guilty about is feeling guilty. And, since man rather than God is the origin of values, don't impose "your" values on me (another favorite line).

This is really polytheism — many gods, many goods, many moralities. No one believes in Zeus and Apollo and Neptune any more. (I wonder why: Has science really refuted them—or is it due to total conformity to fashion, supine submission to newspapers?) But moral relativism is the equivalent of the old polytheism. Each of us has become a god or goddess, a giver of law rather than receiver.

A third ingredient of the old paganism but not of the new is awe at something transcendent, the sense of worship and mystery. What the old pagan worshiped differed widely — almost anything from Zeus to cows—but he worshiped something. In the modern world the very sense of worship is dying, even in our own liturgy, which sounds as if it were invented by a Committee for the Abolition of Poetry.

Our religious sense has dried up. Modern religion is de-mythologized, de-miraclized, de-divinized. God is not the Lord but the All, not transcendent but immanent, not super-natural but natural.

Pantheism is comfortable, and this is the modem summum bonum. The Force of "Star Wars" fame is a pantheistic God, and it is immensely popular, because it's "like a book on the shelf," as C.S. Lewis put it: available whenever you want it, but not bothersome when you don't want it. How convenient to think we are bubbles in a divine froth rather than rebellious children of a righteous divine Father! Pantheism has no sense of sin, for sin means separation, and no one can ever be separated from the All. Thus the third feature, no transcendence, is connected with the second, no absolute morality.

The new paganism is a great triumph of wishful thinking. Without losing the thrill and patina of religion, the terror of religion is removed. The new paganism stoutly rejects "the fear of God." Nearly all religious educators today, including many supposedly Catholic ones, are agreed that the thing the Bible calls "the beginning of wisdom" is instead the thing we must above all eradicate from the minds of the young with all the softly destructive power of the weapons of modern pop psychology — namely, the fear of the Lord.

"Perfect love casts out fear," says St. John; but when God has become the Pillsbury Doughboy, there is no fear left to cast out. And when there is no fear to cast out, perfect love lacks its strong roots. It becomes instead mere compassion — something good but dull, or even weak: precisely the idea people have today of religion. The shock is gone. That the God of the Bible should love us is a thunderbolt; that the God of the new paganism should love us is a self-evident platitude.

The new paganism is winning not by opposing but by infiltrating the Church. It is cleverer than the old. It knows that any opposition from without, even by a vastly superior force, has never worked, for "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church." When China welcomed Western missionaries, there were 2 million conversions in 60 years; when Mao and communism persecuted the Church, there were 20 million conversions in 20 years. The Church in East Germany is immensely stronger than the Church in West Germany for the same reason. The new paganism understands this, so it uses the soft, suggestive strategy of the serpent. It whispers, in the words of Scripture scholars, the very words of the serpent: "Has God really said...?" (Gen. 3:1).

The new paganism is a joining of forces by three of the enemies of theism: humanism, polytheism and pantheism. The only five possibilities for ultimate meaning and values are: atheism (no God); humanism (man as God); polytheism (many gods); pantheism (one immanent God); and theism (one transcendent God). The Battle of the Five Kings in the Valley of Armageddon might, in our era, be beginning. Predictions are always unwise, but the signs of the times, for some thoughtful observers, point to a fundamental turning point, the end of an age.

The so-called "New Age Movement" combines all the features described under the title of the new paganism. It's a loosely organized movement, basically a flowering of '60s hippiedom, rather than a centralized agenda. But strategies are connected in three places. There may be no conspiracy on earth to unify the enemies of the Church, but the strategy of hell is more than the strategy of earth. Only one thing is more than the strategy of hell: the strategy of heaven.

The gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church; in fact, God uses the devil to defeat the devil, just as He did on Calvary, when the forces of the Hebrew, Greek and Roman worlds united to crucify Christ, as symbolized by the three languages on the accusation sign over the cross.

The very triumph of the devil, the death of God, was the defeat of the devil, the redemption of mankind, "Good Friday" Because God, who spoke the first word, always gets the last word.


TOPICS: Religion & Politics; Religion & Science; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: alexanderhislop; anticatholic; anticatholisism; appollo; appolo; atheism; babylon; buddhism; christian; christianity; cslewis; dionysus; gaia; greek; greekmyths; hagee; hercules; hinduism; hislop; humanism; islam; kreeft; neopaganism; neptune; newage; newpaganism; pagan; paganism; pagans; pantheisticgod; peterkreeft; polytheism; ralphwoodrow; whoreofbabylon; zeus; zoroastrianism
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1 posted on 05/09/2011 11:11:12 AM PDT by bronxville
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: bronxville

The biggest problem facing Christianity today is that Christians refuse to engage society at any meaningful level. We have abdicated. Just look where England is now. That is where the US is going.


3 posted on 05/09/2011 11:16:42 AM PDT by sigzero
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To: bronxville
The very triumph of the devil, the death of God, was the defeat of the devil, the redemption of mankind, "Good Friday" Because God, who spoke the first word, always gets the last word.

I read and read and read, and came to this final sentence... NOW where exactly did the notion of 'good Friday' come from... I know it is NOT scriptural. Maybe early on some pagan got in the mix and added a different methodology of 'counting'?

4 posted on 05/09/2011 11:17:55 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: bronxville

Do not speak of Chick at all - neither for nor against.


5 posted on 05/09/2011 11:20:04 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: bronxville
The motto "nothing too much" was inscribed over every temple to Apollo, along with "know thyself."

True, but Apollo was not God, he was just one of many gods, and not even the highest.

The Apollonian ideal was countered by ideals associated with other gods, notably Dionysus, whose motto was (paraphrased), "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."

Ancient paganism was not a religion, it was a whole group of religions. The devotee could seek out the one that best suited him. The closest to this in the modern world is Hinduism.

6 posted on 05/09/2011 11:20:16 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Religion Moderator

I was posting about Hislop only - Chick happened to be in the article in passing. Can I provide the link?


7 posted on 05/09/2011 11:22:03 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: bronxville

Yes


8 posted on 05/09/2011 11:24:40 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: bronxville
Paganism is simply the natural gravity of the human spirit, the line of least resistance, religion in its fallen state.

One of those great lines to put in the pocket. Kreeft is always stimulating.
9 posted on 05/09/2011 11:26:51 AM PDT by jobim
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To: Religion Moderator

Thanks -

http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp


10 posted on 05/09/2011 11:30:31 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: sigzero

“The biggest problem facing Christianity today is that Christians refuse to engage society at any meaningful level. We have abdicated. Just look where England is now. That is where the US is going.”

Yes. I believe that many Christians don’t know that we’ve become the enemy.


11 posted on 05/09/2011 11:32:18 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: bronxville

Feel free to pop me a memo when the pagans take over a Catholic cathedral or church the same way the Muslims have done in countless places. In short, the real threat to the world for now is the darkness of islam and not a bunch of disorganized self-worshipping pasty-faced vegetarian liberals.


12 posted on 05/09/2011 11:34:35 AM PDT by MeganC (NO WAR FOR OIL! ........except when a Democrat's in charge.)
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To: bronxville
The new paganism is winning not by opposing but by infiltrating the Church.

This is true. Christians can defend against this, in part, by retreating to the more traditional forms of their faith. For example, Catholics can attend the traditional liturgies, which are untainted by modernism and humanism, particularly with respect to the homily. The parishioner will be less likely to hear themes of inclusiveness and tolerance and more likely to hear about sin and the consequences thereof.

13 posted on 05/09/2011 11:37:31 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: call meVeronica

Bumping


14 posted on 05/09/2011 11:38:53 AM PDT by call meVeronica
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To: MeganC
not a bunch of disorganized self-worshipping pasty-faced vegetarian liberals.

Maybe the hippies are not much of a threat but their philosophy is. Not that humanism and pagan worship will triumph against the Church, but many individual souls could be lost. I wouldn't downplay the danger. When I look at the kids in my neighborhood, I am much more concerned about their being influenced by humanism than by Islam, absolutely no comparison.

15 posted on 05/09/2011 11:43:10 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: Sherman Logan

Yes, the article made it clear on polytheism - many gods, many goods and many moralities. He did only mention three - Zeus, Apollo and Neptune but it would take a book to mention all of them. His point was that moral relativism is the equivalent of the old polytheism where each become a god or goddess, a giver of law rather than a receiver.


16 posted on 05/09/2011 11:45:05 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: steve86

I see humanism as the soul in a wilderness. That’s why we saw people like John Lindh being raised in secular-humanist liberal Marin and then being easily swayed into radical Islam. The false nature of humanism is apparent to anyone who does not smoke pot or pine away for Jerry Garcia and they are inevitably seekers.


17 posted on 05/09/2011 11:46:23 AM PDT by MeganC (NO WAR FOR OIL! ........except when a Democrat's in charge.)
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To: MeganC

There are some who believe that Islam is a pagan religion.


18 posted on 05/09/2011 11:46:30 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: bronxville

There is nothing new about “New Age”,in fact it is the oldest lie. “The Serpent said to Eve “You shall be as gods...’”.


19 posted on 05/09/2011 11:46:57 AM PDT by Fred Hayek (All Hail the No Talent Pop Star pResident.)
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To: Just mythoughts

You’re getting into - Scripture Alone - which isn’t the topic of the thread.


20 posted on 05/09/2011 11:48:57 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: bronxville

“There are some who believe that Islam is a pagan religion.”

In some respects, such as their lunar calendar, they are. Mostly, it is a corruption of Jewish and Christian beliefs with some violent, deluded drivel thrown in. When you read the Sura in chronological order the madness of Mohammed becomes readily apparent as his violence and his grandiosity become more evident with each subsequent passage.


21 posted on 05/09/2011 11:50:48 AM PDT by MeganC (NO WAR FOR OIL! ........except when a Democrat's in charge.)
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To: bronxville

La Civiltà Cattolica, Series written in 1850

.... pagan civilization is a regression for humanity, its liberty entailing the most shameful slavery and the liquidation of the human personality, absorbed by the omnipotence of the God-State. Therefore, even without my saying it, anyone can see by himself that modern liberalism, under the fiction of promoting liberty, tends to destroy it; under the shadow of desiring progress, it desires barbarism….It is not aversion to liberty or sympathies for despotism that lead the Church to fight their wicked efforts….Rather it is the love it feels for true liberty, its native repugnance for all kinds of despotism, the mission it has from God to save the personal independence of man that inspires it, and urges it to such a battle.-La Civiltà Cattolica, Series 1850


22 posted on 05/09/2011 11:54:45 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Fred Hayek

“There is nothing new about “New Age”,in fact it is the oldest lie. “The Serpent said to Eve “You shall be as gods...’”.”

Yes, which is why the author makes the distinction between “old paganism” tactics vs “new paganism” tactics.


23 posted on 05/09/2011 11:56:23 AM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: bronxville

Good stuff! And as a (happy) Protestant, I nearly fully agree....(given a Church invisible...)


24 posted on 05/09/2011 12:26:19 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: bronxville
Criticism, refutation, and replacement are also the principles behind modern holidays being celebrated to a limited extent around the same time as former pagan holidays. In actuality, reports of Christian holidays coinciding with pagan ones are often inaccurate (Christmas does not occur on Saturnalia, for example). However, to the extent the phenomenon occurs at all, Christian holidays were introduced to provide a wholesome, non-pagan alternative celebration, which thus critiques and rejects the pagan holiday.

Think so, huh??? And Catholics countered that Pagan winter celebration with Christmas trees and decorations???

Your article does not refute Hislop...All it does, numerous times, is claim 'it is not necessarily so, if'....

25 posted on 05/09/2011 12:29:36 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: bronxville

Great Post!! Thanks!


26 posted on 05/09/2011 12:34:36 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: bronxville

Here is the link to the best document ever produced on the New Age Movement that goes into the depth of it through time

It’s well worth the long read

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CULTURE
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE

JESUS CHRIST
THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE

A Christian reflection
on the “New Age”
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html


27 posted on 05/09/2011 12:36:17 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: sigzero
The biggest problem facing Christianity today is that Christians refuse to engage society at any meaningful level. We have abdicated. Just look where England is now. That is where the US is going.

Christians must begin to open their mouths and preach the word to a dying world. Not going on a mission to Africa or South American, but sharing the Gospel with friends, family and acquaintances right here at home in this shell of a Christian nation.

"And daily in the temple,and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." Acts 5:42

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." 1 Peter 3:15

It is necessary to be properly equipped. Read the Bible, know what the Gospel is.

"But the annointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you" 1 John 2:27a

Examine this short youtube video showing how to share the gospel.

"So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17

28 posted on 05/09/2011 12:38:13 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: stfassisi

C.S. Lewis once remarked that he was a converted pagan living in a nation of apostate Puritans - to a large extent, that’s the situation in which American Christians find themselves today. When one reflects it appears to have happened really quickly, it didn’t, our downfall was that we weren’t paying attention because we were too busy being robotic slaves and didn’t pay attention. The Church has been warning us over the centuries.

This more recent virulent onslaught -

1849 - NOSTIS et NOBISCUM - Pius IX
“18. As regards this teaching and these theories, it is now generally known that the special goal of their proponents is to introduce to the people the pernicious fictions of Socialism and Communism by misapplying the terms “liberty” and “equality.” The final goal shared by these teachings, whether of Communism or Socialism, even if approached differently, is to excite by continuous disturbances workers and others, especially those of the lower class, whom they have deceived by their lies and deluded by the promise of a happier condition.” http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9nostis.htm

1878 - QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS - Pope Leo XIII

“1. At the very beginning of Our pontificate, as the nature of Our apostolic office demanded, we hastened to point out in an encyclical letter addressed to you, venerable brethren, the deadly plague that is creeping into the very fibers of human society and leading it on to the verge of destruction; at the same time We pointed out also the most effectual remedies by which society might be restored and might escape from the very serious dangers which threaten it. But the evils which We then deplored have so rapidly increased that We are again compelled to address you, as though we heard the voice of the prophet ringing in Our ears: “Cry, cease not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet.”(1) You understand, venerable brethren, that We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists, communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning - the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever.

Surely these are they who, as the sacred Scriptures testify, “Defile the flesh, despise dominion and blaspheme majesty.”(2) They leave nothing untouched or whole which by both human and divine laws has been wisely decreed for the health and beauty of life. They refuse obedience to the higher powers, to whom, according to the admonition of the Apostle, every soul ought to be subject, and who derive the right of governing from God; and they proclaim the absolute equality of all men in rights and duties. They debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is “the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith,”(3) they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life. These are the startling theories they utter in their meetings, set forth in their pamphlets, and scatter abroad in a cloud of journals and tracts...”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/L13APOST.HTM

Your post #22 reminded me of the above encyclicals which, if one retreads back in history, might well bring us to the beginning of this current infestation of evil.


29 posted on 05/09/2011 12:55:24 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: stfassisi

A Christian reflection on the “New Age”
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

Thanks for the link. Bookmarked for later.


30 posted on 05/09/2011 12:57:44 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: Iscool

Do you agree fully with Hislop’s myths?


31 posted on 05/09/2011 1:00:04 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: AnalogReigns; johngrace

Thanks. The Judeo-Christians have been targeted for a long time. We’re in for a long fight where all good men come together, be they, Protestants, Jews, Catholics, Atheistists, Agnostics, etc.


32 posted on 05/09/2011 1:05:02 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: sigzero; nonsporting

Great post. We’ve been amazingly polite in our silence, being made to feel we were too imposing in our beliefs, which is no better than anyone elses since we each have our own godly truths.

The author of the article outlined moral relatism clearly and it’s been way too successful. Yes, we all need to arm ourselves with the Real Truth and become more bold in carrying it out into the world.


33 posted on 05/09/2011 1:15:05 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: bronxville

“”C.S. Lewis once remarked that he was a converted pagan living in a nation of apostate Puritans - to a large extent, that’s the situation in which American Christians find themselves today. When one reflects it appears to have happened really quickly, it didn’t, our downfall was that we weren’t paying attention because we were too busy being robotic slaves and didn’t pay attention. The Church has been warning us over the centuries.””

Exactly true!

I always appreciate this when people understand this! Sadly,very few people do,but as you pointed out through various papal encyclicals(some of my favorites),the Church saw the error immediately because it has battled similar things through the ages.

I’ll send you something you might like through freepmail-It’s not appreciated in open forum here on FR


34 posted on 05/09/2011 1:34:37 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Iscool
And Catholics countered that Pagan winter celebration with Christmas trees

Not much evidence for Christmas trees in Catholic Europe before the Reformation. Martin Luther thought they were cool, and helped to popularize them in Germany.

The have no religious significance in Catholicism anyway. Most Catholic churches do not have Christmas trees at Christmastime; they have manger scenes.

35 posted on 05/09/2011 8:53:34 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Campion
"The have no religious significance in Catholicism anyway. Most Catholic churches do not have Christmas trees at Christmastime; they have manger scenes."

That was one of the big differences I noticed at a Catholic Church during the Christmas season as opposed the the Lutheran churches I attended so long, no Christmas tree in the Church. As I recall there was a nice tree and decorations in the nearby Catholic school, though, where the Church used the school gymnasium and kitchen facilities for get togethers.

36 posted on 05/10/2011 1:27:03 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
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To: sigzero; Vanders9; agere_contra
The biggest problem facing Christianity today is that Christians refuse to engage society at any meaningful level. We have abdicated. Just look where England is now.

I think Christians do engage with society in the UK, just not enough. The Pope's visit there showed the signs of a vacuum. And I lived in the UK for years and yes there are vibrant Catholic communities that are reaching out. However, yes, the CoE has failed people as has the Kirk.

37 posted on 05/10/2011 1:51:40 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Sherman Logan
Ancient paganism was not a religion, it was a whole group of religions. The devotee could seek out the one that best suited him. The closest to this in the modern world is Hinduism.

Quite correct, Hinduism has forms ranging from atheism to polytheism to monotheism.

38 posted on 05/10/2011 1:53:35 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Iscool
Catholics countered that Pagan winter celebration with Christmas trees

Aren't you tired of being shown that your posts are wrong over and over again? A simple reading before typing would help

The Christmas tree started and was kept in the upper Rhineland of Germany only, until the 18th century. This practice remained confined to the upper Rhineland of Germany and was regarded as a Protestant custom by the Roman Catholic majority along the lower Rhine and was spread there only by Prussian officials who were moved there in the wake of the Congress of Vienna in 1815.

39 posted on 05/10/2011 1:58:52 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Iscool; bronxville
http://newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm

http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html

There is plenty of information available that proves Hislop misinterpreted and made up everything in his book, “The Two Babylons”, and that almost every anti-Catholic book published since then, especially Davy Hunt's “A Woman Rides The Beast”, is based on the work of Hislop. Anyone who wants to know the truth will have no problem finding the facts, and the facts are that more than 99% of what is passed off as "the truth about" the Catholic Church having adopted anything pagan is nothing but pure bunk and hokum.

Since the Catholic Church worked very hard to eradicate pagan gods, holidays, and practices, it's not at all unreasonable for them to replace a pagan holiday with a feast day or something similar in order to deprive those inclined to remain pagan of that day for their holiday. Bunk and hokum sell very well, but they're still nothing more than lies told, retold, repackaged as little comic books or as “studious” works that rely on a reference to someone, who refers to someone else, and so on through multiple references, trying to hide the fact that all of the works referred to are based on Hislop' lies. That degree of misdirection is deliberate, not accidental, and by itself is enough to indict the majority of anti-Catholic works as frauds based on nothing but Hislop. The vast majority of those authors who write anti-Catholic books and articles don't care if it's all lies, as long as there are people who will pay good money to lap up those lies most authors are quite happy to retell them.

Not only that, but some of the authors are especially happy to have the opportunity to attack His One True Church because they are in reality, Gnostic anti-Christians. Slandering His Church and selling, the “Whoomp, there it is” version of salvation is their trade, not telling Christians the truth about Christ and His Church or anything else for that matter. Such authors and their followers believe that only the select few will be saved and so any lies they tell those who are lost anyway don't make a bit of difference. If they can package lies and make money selling them to misguided people, they're more than happy to do so.

40 posted on 05/10/2011 2:19:11 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
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To: Rashputin; Iscool; bronxville
Thanks for the link. It says
So is it with the claims about pagan origins. What may seem to have a connection, upon further investigation, has no connection at all!

By this method, one could take virtually anything and do the same—even the “golden arches” at McDonald’s! The Encyclopedia Americana (article: “Arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. Since Babylon was called “the golden city” (Isa. 14:4), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered over and over about pagan origins.

By this method, atheists have long sought to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Roman Catholic Church.

By this method, one could condemn Protestant and evangelical denominations like the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist, Nazarene, etc. Basic things like prayer, and kneeling in prayer, would have to be rejected, because pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water, etc.

By this method, the BIBLE itself would need to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible, were also known among pagans—raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, city of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, the offering of first fruits, tithes, etc.

By this method, the LORD himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Psa. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshipped the sun; the Lord is the “Sun of righteousness” (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called “the bright and morning star” (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Psa. 91:4).


41 posted on 05/10/2011 3:24:51 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Cronos
You're more than welcome.

It's surprising how many earnest people get drawn into the same game Satan has been playing since the he fell, his web of lies. All the lies Satan has planted about the Catholic Church are applied to all other Christians as well no matter which denomination they're a part of. Those same lies are, of course, applied to all Christians by different authors than those who apply them only to the Catholic Church. Otherwise Protestants would catch on and realize just what a web of lies they've bought into and who is the real author of those lies.

Some who believe and spread these lies know they're deliberately lying to undermine Christianity, others have just been deceived. All of those spreading or accepting such lies need our prayers.

Regards

42 posted on 05/10/2011 3:58:19 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
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To: Cronos
I think you are on the wrong track...

God did not borrow from the Pagans...The Pagans stole from God and added a lot of twists to their worship...

However, some things the Pagan rituals and practices they did not get from God and God condemned them for those practices such as worshiping the Queen of Heaven, bowing down to idols, etc...

But to offer a defense by claiming baptism must be bad because Pagans use water in rituals appears to be an act of desperation...

The Christmas tree started and was kept in the upper Rhineland of Germany only, until the 18th century. Really, it's alright to condemn Pagan religions that mimic Christianity but it's not alright to mimic Paganism even if their perverted evil practices originated with God...

The Christmas tree started and was kept in the upper Rhineland of Germany only, until the 18th century.

Actually the tree worship started back in the Old Testament...

The Romans, right up into the time of Jesus and the Apostles worshiped Diana, the Queen of Heaven...

You guys claim that Hislop and all anti-Catholic authors are low down liars but all you give us is a generic 'they are wrong, we are right'...

Perhaps you could get down to the nitty gritty and show us where and how Hislop is all lies...

43 posted on 05/10/2011 6:15:34 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

I dunno about your family but no one worships Christmas trees. The tradition of the Christmas tree started post the Reformation in northern Germany and was regarded as a Protestant custom by the Roman Catholic majority along the lower Rhine and was spread there only by Prussian officials who were moved there in the wake of the Congress of Vienna in 1815.


44 posted on 05/10/2011 6:36:07 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Iscool
Iscool: The Christmas tree started and was kept in the upper Rhineland of Germany only, until the 18th century. Really, it's alright to condemn Pagan religions that mimic Christianity but it's not alright to mimic Paganism even if their perverted evil practices originated with God...

Good, then go and ask the northern Germans after the Reformation why they started the custom of the Christmas tree

45 posted on 05/10/2011 6:36:30 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Iscool

Do note that just because a Title was used by another religion does not denigrate Christianity. The term “King of Kings” was originally Persian and was the title of the Shah (actually his title was Shahenshah meaning King of Kings) and you can find the God of the OT referred to as Ba’al (literally “Sir”) and other semitic Gods given the name El or Adonai. Even the term God of Light has similarities in Zoroastrianism — do you condemn us Christians for using this term?


46 posted on 05/10/2011 6:43:45 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Iscool
The Romans, right up into the time of Jesus and the Apostles worshiped Diana, the Queen of Heaven...

And you give us adequate proof of why your kind are wrong -- your basic facts are utterly wrong. Here's another blooper from you.

Diana was the goddess of the hunt. The Roman goddess consort of Jupiter and Jupiter's queen was Juno.

47 posted on 05/10/2011 6:43:54 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Iscool
"Perhaps you could get down to the nitty gritty and show us where and how Hislop is all lies... "

Anyone who cares whether they're right or wrong would do research into it themselves once they were told that so much is still based on the work of Hislop. In fact, the vast majority of those who quote Hislop directly and indirectly know full well he's wrong but enjoy having lengthy arguments over what academics have shown to be Hislop lies and flaws in order to have that much more opportunity to spew their BS. Nothing helps sell books and BS like tapping into the conspiracy mindset so common these days, the more ancient the conspiracy the better, and Hislop has a proven track record of massaging the conspiracy gland so many people have.

Anyone can use a search engine and weed out the load of crap that's based on him and lauding him in order to sell their latest book, then dig down through the well padded search results aimed as selling those books and find the honest, impartial, academic critiques, of what Hislop wrote. Once they know that much, they'll see how almost all anti-Catholic works launder references to Hislop through references to others and so on. If they care whether or not works based on Hislop are the truth and whether they may be believing those who quote lies as fact, I feel sure anyone reading here is capable of finding out the truth.

Arguing against a well known lie in those cases where someone quotes lies and didn't bother to research before quoting the lie is a waste of time. Those interested in truth will find the facts and those who aren't will believe what they want to believe or what is convenient for their agenda. Telling people who want the truth that the whole bookshelf anti-Catholic stuff now popular is based on Hislop is sufficient. Those interested in the truth will look into it and see what the facts are. Each person who does so will be one less person who believes the lies. That's far better than helping someone who doesn't care about the truth generate more opportunities to repeat those lies as well as others.

48 posted on 05/10/2011 3:49:47 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
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To: Iscool; Rashputin; Cronos

“The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors (or Christianity before Christ)”

“FRIENDS and brethren — teachers of the Christian faith: Will you believe us when we tell you the divine claims of your religion are gone — all swept away by the “logic of history,” and nullified by the demonstrations of science?”...
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/

This guy “proves” that ALL of Christianity itself is pagan. I’d be interested to get your feedback on it.

Are you a Hislop apologist?


49 posted on 05/10/2011 9:54:47 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: Rashputin

http://newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm
http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html

Thanks for your interesting links. Ralph Woodrow admitted he was conned and has made well-documented convincing rebuttals. It’s difficult to understand but there are those who actually prefer to believe the lies.


50 posted on 05/10/2011 10:15:57 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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