Posted on 05/12/2011 7:46:54 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
The problem occurs when a woman takes authority over other believers. Teachers have a certain level of authority, but not complete authority. That authority rests with the Pastor of the Church.
A good example of a woman in a teaching ministry who is still obeying the limits set by Scripture upon women is Beth Moore.
The Ephesian church had trouble dropping all that and Paul was commanding them that women were not allowed to have "authenteo" (domineer) over men, which would imply the superiority of women.
Likely he did not mean that they should not ever teach or have authority in the normal way "exousia".
While I agree that something strange was going on at Ephesus and you’re probably right about why Paul commanded that women were not allowed to have “authenteo” over men instead of “exousia”, I also must notice that this was not the accepted understanding of this verse until very recent, being understood as such only within the last 100 years or so. If you can offer proof that this idea was around and supported by the early Church, preferably before the end of the 2nd Century, then I’d be more willing to accept it as the proper understanding.
Are you Catholic or Orthodox?
Neither, I’m Fundamentalist. Raised Freewill Baptist with Pentecostal leanings. I just hold the odd idea that God doesn’t change and neither does His ideas on what’s proper in the Body, so we should try to model our beliefs and lives as close to those first Christians as possible.
I'm not sure why you wouldn't think Paul's writings themselves were not the "early church". I find fullesst support there.
I also must notice that this was not the accepted understanding of this verses until very recent, being understood as such only within the last 100 years or so
I would not equate the "accepted understanding" of the verse with the verses themselves.
There's no doubt that culture in the early christian period was heavily dominated by pagan worship which included the worship of women. It was much different from our culture. Naturally, the comments on Scripture from those who were closer to and affected by active goddess worship have to considered in that context; their comments are not "God-breathed". All comment on Scripture did not end with them.
So Paladan,are you saying that Peter and Paul werent told by Jesus that previuos notions,beliefs and convictions of theres were wrong? If you pick and choose what you want to believe as you accuse me of,why didnt Paul continue killing Christians?Why did Peter start preaching to gentiles?Why were disciples corrected for acting diferantly when other disciples showed up?Examine also the mother begging for deliverance of her child,,when even Jesus himself seems to have corrected His own feelings about helping gentiles?Her faith seems to have made Him reconsider allowing dogs to eat from His table.
More importantly why didnt you answer my question about Jesus asking a formor prostitute to preach the gospel to the disciples?You seem to be more interested in attacking other believers.
I do think that Paul’s writing constitutes the best examples of what the Early Church thought, but since the understanding of these verses have come into question, I find it best to go back and see what the first Christians actually thought and taught, since these were the very people who Paul was writing these letters too and about. I understand that the early Christians don’t hold the same level of authority that Paul or the other Apostles do, but for me, it’s about going back to the source documents and seeing how those Christians who knew Paul personally understood and acted upon that passage.
Bluntly put, you seem to know just enough about the Bible to try to make an attack on Christians over what you seem to think is a weakness yet you don't realize that by saying you disregard Paul's teachings you flag yourself as nothing more than a troublemaker and possibly not even eligible to take part in this caucus thread, since no Protestant or Evangelical would claim to disregard Paul's writings.
You will find very few writings by people who actually received Paul's letters. And writings done in the area of the churches done a century or more later should not have nearly the same weight as the Scripture itself. We know how a generation or two even in our time can radically change the dynamics of what really happened. I'm not saying these early fathers were not good people. They heroically fought the doctrinal battles of their day and laid down doctrine as their world was being radically changed and their views are integral to our understanding. However, reading their insight (impacted by their pagan-driven culture) is not nearly as important as reading Scripture itself. Current-day exegesis done by the power of the Holy Spirit should not be discounted or minimalized.
Both of you, do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
I believe that we’re talking past one another here Siena. I don’t discount or even minimize modern exegesis out of hand, especially if done in conjunction with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but I likewise don’t undervalue the testimony of those first believers, even if they were surrounded by an extremely pagan world. Remember though, I’m a fundamentalist at heart and will not accept a change to the traditional understanding of a verse or passage without extremely solid support for an altered understanding of it. I’m not saying that I’m completely against it, just that I’m not going to change my mind just because someone makes a new claim. So far, while I have seen some evidence to support the understanding that you suggest, I find just as much evidence to speak against that view as well, including the actions of those females who have claimed the title of “Pastor”. It’s going to be an uphill battle for you to convince me that you’re right, but if you are, then the Holy Spirit will guide me to it.
I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right; I'm simply pointing out what I consider to be errors in your logic.
The scripture you cited (Timothy) is commonly used by people with your view. However, they fail to take into account the background against which the writing in 62 AD or thereabouts takes place and regularly neglect the unusual use of Paul's word for "authority". Another scripture on the same topic is commonly cited in 1 Corinthians also neglecting the direct historical circumstances.
I don’t discount or even minimize modern exegesis out of hand, especially if done in conjunction with the guidance of the Holy Spirit
A good position to take IMO.
Should say, “topic commonly cited in 1 Corinthians also neglects”
I’m not sure why you concluded the poster was Catholic or Orthodox.
There are many solid protestant churches which still haven’t succombed to post-modernism. The PCA church still rightly guards the leadership applying biblical principles.
I believe it has to do with my suggestion that we should research what the early Church believed in regards to this position. In normal circumstances, that is a very Orthodox or Catholic thing to do so I would have been a little confused as well if a Protestant took that stance. I took no offense at it and saw it as merely a request to see where I was coming from in this regard.
“The problem occurs when a woman takes authority over other believers. Teachers have a certain level of authority, but not complete authority. That authority rests with the Pastor of the Church.”
This term authority is troubling for me. I attend a specific church because I believe in the message of the church regarding ministries, mission, etc.... The Pastor, as such has no authority over me, only God carries that authority.
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