Skip to comments.Vatican increases pressure to allow Latin mass
Posted on 05/13/2011 8:27:14 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
By Philip Pullella
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican told Catholic bishops around the world on Friday they had to obey a papal order allowing priests to say the old-style Latin mass for traditionalist Catholics, whether they liked it or not.
The Vatican issued an "instruction" to bishops as a follow-up to a 2007 papal decree authorizing the wider adoption of the Latin Mass, which was in universal use before the 1962-1965 Vatican Council introduced masses in local languages.
...The five-page instruction from the Vatican's doctrinal department, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, made it clear that the pope wants bishops to follow his orders.
...While couched in polite, institutional language, the instruction said local parishes had to insert a Latin mass into their liturgical schedules if tradionalist faithful wanted it.
...A Vatican official said recently that only a third of the world's bishops responded to a Vatican questionnaire and that prejudice against the old mass was "still widespread."
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
Benedict the Great.
I remember we used to call it “High Mass”.
Does that ring a bell with anyone?
>>Latin mass without translation is speaking in tongues and strictly FORBIDDEN. <<
I don’t see how that follows. “Speaking in Tongues” is a (frequently misunderstood) reference to gifts from God (teaching is one of the greatest).
If you are talking about the Church’s objection to “Charismatic” movements (which are appalling), that is an entirely different matter.
Or you were joking and I missed it...
A. He heard it was going to be a High Mass.
That's what passed as 3rd grade Catholic School humor in the early 60's.
Does that ring a bell with anyone?
Yes. Our parish does one every first and third Sunday of the month:
>>That’s what passed as 3rd grade Catholic School humor in the early 60’s.<<
I think that was where we got to say “D@mn” and “H3ll” without getting in trouble.
God Bless Pope Benedict XVI.
That statement simply DOES NOT reflect reality.
Please pray for your trapped bretheran on the remote island chain of Hawaii. American-bred priests have come from the disaster known as Menlo Park Seminary for the past 40 years. A Latin Mass to them? They think it was stopped somewhere along 1362 (and a hearty good riddance!) And the foreign priests from the Philippines are poorly trained in liturgy, let alone Latin and Gregorian. We are trapped unlike you folks on the Mainland who can drive somewhere. But how magnificent is our 83 year old Papa, writing books for us and giving us the treasure of the ages in Moto Proprio.
The translation of every word is in a book anyone can buy.
Latin Mass is not High Mass, which is a more ceremonial form of Mass.
High and low Masses can be in Latin.
Interesting I hope things improve. Not really much better in many more rural areas of the mainland, distant from big cities (of course, big cities tend to have both the best and the worst of things).
That makes sense.
I have to assume they merged the 2 in my particular parish. But I was young then.
Oh thank you for my best laugh of the day so far. Where in the world did you find such a clever joke? Is it your own?
In fact, prior to Vatican II, every Sunday missal had the English translation. I was an altar boy back in the 60's. My first few years were during the old Latin masses. I loved it. Took a little while to learn all that Latin though. I would love to see a return of at least one Latin mass a week offered in our Diocese.
High Mass is sung (chanted), Low Mass is said.
Latin Mass rocks!!!
Not a joke. I know that it is common in the Catholic church to NOT actually read the bible. So it is common that many Catholics aren’t aware of what the bible actually says.
This is just to advocate reading God’s word.
tongues in the bible has two meanings.
1. Referring to known foreign languages
2. Referring to a spiritual gift and language for personal prayer to God.
I don’t think anyone can deny that Latin is a foreign language. As a spoken language, it is virtually a dead language.
In either case, speaking in tongues is not allowed in the church without interpreters. That is, people to translate into a commonly known language, by the hearers, for the reasons explained in the bible, in First Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 14:
27. If anyone speaks in a tongue, twoor at the most threeshould speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
1 Corinthians 14:
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say Amen to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Yours is rather tortured understanding of the Bible:
1) Does that mean that if I go to Mass in an ethnic neighborhood and they do a mass in the language of the congregation — and do not provide an interpreter, they are FORBIDDEN because I do not speak that language? I don’t think so.
2) The rest of the passages you quote deal with the “speaking in tongues” and are a follow-up to what I spoke of.
3) This is Catholicism — the Pontiff is charged with first and foremost establishing a working interpretation of Scripture for the Church.
I could grab a handful of Bible quotes and make them anything I want them to say. That isn’t the point of the OP, nor the underlying issue.
Not a Roman Catholic myself, but you can't be this ignorant.
Latin is a very cool language.
It also continues to be the worldwide language of medicine and law.
I wish I could speak it better but I can’t even seem to master Spanish and my in-laws are all in Mexico!
I can safely ignore whatever follows ...
I can safely ignore whatever follows ...
>>In fact, prior to Vatican II...<<
I remember my Parish priest’s guide to the Vaticans:
Vatican I - Old School Priests, Nuns with rulers, Mass in Latin, etc.
Vatican II — the “cool” young priests (like the then-young Bing Crosby in “Going My Way”), Mass in English, Nuns with rulers, etc.
Vatican III — Bishops and priests can have wives
Vatican IV — Bishops and priests can have husbands
>>I can safely ignore whatever follows ...<<
People who think when they read the King James version of the Bible they are reading “The” Bible crack me up in general.
Scripture is always within an interpretive framework.
>>I’m pretty sure that XVL isn’t even a Roman numeral<<
Hmm — 50 minus 5 minus 10 — or is it 50 minus 5 plus 5 minus 10 —
I come up with eleventy-seven
I love how often people who “know” so much about about other religions and the Bible will then pretend Jesus did a grape juice miracle, since they “read” so very well.
Do what I do, just ignore the whole thing...LOL.
My kids’ Catholic school must not have that memo that says we can’t read the Bible. They each have a verse to memorize each week, and my 6th grader is quite proficient in reciting large verses to me on a regular basis. She also just received the ‘Covenant Award,’ voted the girl in her class who follows God’s teachings (more specifically, the 10 Commandments—wait, don’t those come from the Bible? hmmm...)
Obviously, I didn't actually read it. Oh, no. Catholics NEVER do that. I just dog-eared random pages, and scribbled mindlessly with the highlighter.
Quite the contrary, Latin is the native language of the Western Church.
I think my high school Bible is somewhere at my parents’. I thought I saw it there in the not too distant past. If I recall, mine was a little worn looking too. I must have been sitting on it to see a little better in class because I was such a shorty ;)
that is a most excellent point
It does t me, freedumb. We are lucky to assist at a sung High Mass every Sunday and Holy Day.
My boys serve on the altar, and the girls’ schola is simply magnificent. They keep hoping to get a boys’ schola going, but all the boys want to serve on the altar. BTW, of the dozen or so boys, 5 of them have admitted considering the priesthood. One young man is already at the minor seminary, and I’d say 2 of the others are quite seriously considering it.
Sometimes I have to shake my head and pinch myself to make sure it’s not all a dream. We are unbelievably fortunate.
God bless Pope Benedict.
Does that mean Jesus was wrong when He spoke (vernacular)Aramaic at home with Mom, and (sacred) Hebrew when He went to the temple to worship?
I think Hebrew was the common language of Jews at that time. Everyone in the Synagogue or temple spoke Hebrew. If everyone in your church speaks Latin, and an unsaved person off the street who comes into your church is likely to speak Latin, then you are all set. Or if you want to, have the priest give the mass in Latin and simultaneously have an interpreter translate it into English.
Thank you for your reasoned response.
I am aware of what is taught in the Catholic church and how it operates. I think it's great if in your church you actually read the bible and live your life according to the bible. If so, you must agree that I quoted scripture accurately and my point was well taken as backed up by scripture.
“Latin mass without translation is speaking in tongues and strictly FORBIDDEN.”
Once in a while you really do see a completely different take on what the Church supposedly does wrong on FR. Most of the time it’s the same old arguments over and over, but that is a very new and fresh take on the subject.
The missal has latin to english translation on facing pages. Problem solved! No more “forbidden tongues”.
I know, it sounds absurd. They study Catholic dogma from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Much like the Mormons study “The Book of Mormon”.
I was just making the point that Latin mass is not biblical without interpreters. SO IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE. Not me, the word of God says so.
Hebrew was the common language of Jews in Judea, but not in Nazareth (Galilee). The two languages are unrelated, and though Jesus was certainly able to speak and understand Hebrew, His mother tongue was indeed Aramaic.
Since you mentioned an interpreter (unnecessary, BTW...anyone who doesn’t understand what is being said can have a Missal right in front of him), I thought I’d tell you that for the first time in my life I’ve been able to see what truly bi-lingual people experience when they listen to one of the languages they speak. While the Ordinaries of the Mass (those are the parts that do not change from week to week) are being sung, I no longer have to translate them; I am able to understand the LATIN without switching it back to English. It’s quite an odd feeling, actually...very weird.
Unfortunately for me, Latin was removed from most school curricula just as I was getting into high school. Thankfully, the tide has turned, and my own son’s (Catholic) high school offers a solid four-year curriculum in Latin. HE will truly “speak Latin.” My own knowledge is due entirely to exposure in church and in literature.