Posted on 05/13/2011 8:27:14 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican told Catholic bishops around the world on Friday they had to obey a papal order allowing priests to say the old-style Latin mass for traditionalist Catholics, whether they liked it or not.
The Vatican issued an "instruction" to bishops as a follow-up to a 2007 papal decree authorizing the wider adoption of the Latin Mass, which was in universal use before the 1962-1965 Vatican Council introduced masses in local languages.
...The five-page instruction from the Vatican's doctrinal department, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, made it clear that the pope wants bishops to follow his orders.
...While couched in polite, institutional language, the instruction said local parishes had to insert a Latin mass into their liturgical schedules if tradionalist faithful wanted it.
...A Vatican official said recently that only a third of the world's bishops responded to a Vatican questionnaire and that prejudice against the old mass was "still widespread."
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
Such nonsense!
Quite the contrary, Latin is the native language of the Western Church.
I think my high school Bible is somewhere at my parents’. I thought I saw it there in the not too distant past. If I recall, mine was a little worn looking too. I must have been sitting on it to see a little better in class because I was such a shorty ;)
that is a most excellent point
It does t me, freedumb. We are lucky to assist at a sung High Mass every Sunday and Holy Day.
My boys serve on the altar, and the girls’ schola is simply magnificent. They keep hoping to get a boys’ schola going, but all the boys want to serve on the altar. BTW, of the dozen or so boys, 5 of them have admitted considering the priesthood. One young man is already at the minor seminary, and I’d say 2 of the others are quite seriously considering it.
Sometimes I have to shake my head and pinch myself to make sure it’s not all a dream. We are unbelievably fortunate.
God bless Pope Benedict.
Regards,
Does that mean Jesus was wrong when He spoke (vernacular)Aramaic at home with Mom, and (sacred) Hebrew when He went to the temple to worship?
Regards,
I think Hebrew was the common language of Jews at that time. Everyone in the Synagogue or temple spoke Hebrew. If everyone in your church speaks Latin, and an unsaved person off the street who comes into your church is likely to speak Latin, then you are all set. Or if you want to, have the priest give the mass in Latin and simultaneously have an interpreter translate it into English.
Thank you for your reasoned response.
I am aware of what is taught in the Catholic church and how it operates. I think it's great if in your church you actually read the bible and live your life according to the bible. If so, you must agree that I quoted scripture accurately and my point was well taken as backed up by scripture.
“Latin mass without translation is speaking in tongues and strictly FORBIDDEN.”
Once in a while you really do see a completely different take on what the Church supposedly does wrong on FR. Most of the time it’s the same old arguments over and over, but that is a very new and fresh take on the subject.
The missal has latin to english translation on facing pages. Problem solved! No more “forbidden tongues”.
Freegards
I know, it sounds absurd. They study Catholic dogma from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Much like the Mormons study “The Book of Mormon”.
I was just making the point that Latin mass is not biblical without interpreters. SO IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE. Not me, the word of God says so.
Hebrew was the common language of Jews in Judea, but not in Nazareth (Galilee). The two languages are unrelated, and though Jesus was certainly able to speak and understand Hebrew, His mother tongue was indeed Aramaic.
Since you mentioned an interpreter (unnecessary, BTW...anyone who doesn’t understand what is being said can have a Missal right in front of him), I thought I’d tell you that for the first time in my life I’ve been able to see what truly bi-lingual people experience when they listen to one of the languages they speak. While the Ordinaries of the Mass (those are the parts that do not change from week to week) are being sung, I no longer have to translate them; I am able to understand the LATIN without switching it back to English. It’s quite an odd feeling, actually...very weird.
Unfortunately for me, Latin was removed from most school curricula just as I was getting into high school. Thankfully, the tide has turned, and my own son’s (Catholic) high school offers a solid four-year curriculum in Latin. HE will truly “speak Latin.” My own knowledge is due entirely to exposure in church and in literature.
Regards,
The scripture you quote is not referring to the Latin Mass, but to glossolalia.
And we do have an interpreter: the Church of Christ herself interprets for us, and writes her interpretation down in a book called a "missal". Problem solved.
“1) Does that mean that if I go to Mass in an ethnic neighborhood and they do a mass in the language of the congregation — and do not provide an interpreter, they are FORBIDDEN because I do not speak that language? I don’t think so.”
The word “forbidden” was probably a poor choice of words. “Not allowed according to the bible” would have been better.
Ethnic neighborhood? Give me a real life example.
If you go to a church in Mexico, it is likely the message will be in Spanish. But, if you started a church in Mexico and you only preached in English, I would say you are not following the teaching in the bible because the expectation is that most people walking in the door will speak Spanish not English.
If you meant like Chinatown and they should preach in Chinese, because the expectation would be that anyone who walks in would understand Chinese.
Would ANYONE walking into your Catholic church understand Latin? How can they hear the gospel if the message is in Latin? Do they have to learn Latin first? Is the mission of the church to speak your own special language (tongue) or to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ so everyone can understand and hear.
“They study Catholic dogma from the Catechism of the Catholic Church”
~which is based on Scripture and the Fathers commentaries and sacred tradition.
That’s ok. You aren’t the first of the non-Catholic FR posters who comment about and have little to no knowledge and less learning of the Catholic catechism.
Try this link http://members.cox.net/fidelis927/scripture_resources.htm
and you can get started reading Scripture and using the Catechism. I like the Ignatius and Navarre bibles with commentary. Very good background studies in the Navarre.
Enjoy!
“How can they hear the gospel if the message is in Latin?”
The Gospel is read in Latin at the altar and THEN in English or the Lingua franca of the country from the ambo.
The “sermon” as you would call it, we call it the homily, is given in English OR in the Lingua franca of the country.
Had to look that one up. It doesn't appear in my bible, nor yours I suspect.
It is always a question as to whether tongues is a reference to the spirit language or a foreign language or both. In some of the scripture quoted it was clearly referring to other languages. The point doesn't change whether you are speaking gibberish or French. If the population doesn't speak gibberish, French, or Latin, they aren't going to hear understand the gospel message are they?
Or is that not the purpose of your church?
I guess that would satisfy the requirement. What may I ask, would be the purpose in that case, of saying it in Latin at all?
ROFL!!!!!
No, I don't agree that you interpret Scripture correctly. Quite the contrary, in fact. I think the idea that a "foreign" (to whom?) language is forbidden in Worship (as you suggest) is quite alien to Scripture ... particularly, that idea is NOT supported by the Scripture you quoted.
Sorry. You're wrong. It's that simple.
Worse (for you interpretation of things): Latin is the native language of the western Church.
In what language does preaching occur in a Latin Mass?
In what language is the Gospel proclaimed in a Latin Mass?
You are correct. I have little to no knowledge of the Catholic catechism. I don't need the Catholic church or the Pope to tell me what the bible says. (not slamming) I go right to the source, as you would say, “The Holy Bible”. The inspired “Word of God”. The Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) speaks truth to me through the “bible”. “catechism” does not appear in my bible.
I understand that Catholic catechism is how your religion is taught to you. Not necessarily a bad thing. I love the Catholic church's positions on abortion and life issues and gay marriage. I think Father Frank Pavone is GREAT!. More bible, less catechism.
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