Skip to comments.Priests, Abuse, and the Meltdown of a Culture. The lessons of an important new study.
Posted on 05/19/2011 7:00:15 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
click here to read article
i agree, interesting graph.
but, “not a problem of homosexuality” ?!? what are they smoking? ...how can you ever truly solve a problem, if you don’t understand (or refuse to admit) the cause?
it is insane to have those study statistics, and conclude this has nothing to do with homosexuality.
81 % of victims are boys?
i admire the church for being honest enough, to take responsibility, and for studying the problem.
(unlike schools, were the abuse rate is 100 times greater!
yet the liberal media ignores that. and schools are immune from the big money lawsuits...)
...again, look at all the Protestant churchs, that now are accepting homosexual clergy, and condoning gay lifestyles, ignoring the Bible.
what will be the future of those churches?
sadly, i worry what their abuse rate will be, a decade from now...
An interesting article on sustained, long term multiple child sexual abuse by a school teacher is posted this morning:
Apparently in all the public schools, the police are not routinely notified.
“There is only a focus on the Catholics alone, by all the others. I wonder why it is so difficult to understand that?”
I was drawn into these threads by one attacking Baptists.
As for support against the allegations...that could be true. It could be the congregation is deceiving itself, or it could be they know both parties and have a good idea who is telling the truth.
When applied to financial bad judgment, I’ve seen both - pastors accused who had clean records (and the check stubs to prove it) and pastors who did wrong that their congregation didn’t want to believe. My own pastor freely admits he once invested much of his money in a venture because he trusted the pastor running it, only to lose everything - every penny he had saved to go to seminary. And he admits that many years later, he still finds it hard to believe the pastor cheated him.
But in a congregational model, the damage is also congregational. If the congregation is deceived, it pays the price both in wrongdoing and in any legal actions.
“Each wants to think that theologically or organizationally it is immune to the problems Catholics are dealing with.”
Baptists DO sexually abuse their trust sometimes, just as the financially abuse their trust sometimes. But since any such abuse drags the name of Christ thru the mud, I think the church has an obligation to hold their pastors (or priests) to a HIGHER standard, not a lower one. The only case of sex that I know of involved a deacon and a young woman in the choir, and he was forced to resign before the next church meeting that Sunday.
Not sure why you deleted my post. If one can’t refer to a theoretical pedophile as a degenerate, things have really changed around here.
Baptists DO sexually abuse their trust sometimes, just as the financially abuse their trust sometimes.
Yes, as do all denominations.
But since any such abuse drags the name of Christ thru the mud, I think the church has an obligation to hold their pastors (or priests) to a HIGHER standard, not a lower one.
On this I agree 100%.
The only case of sex that I know of involved a deacon and a young woman in the choir, and he was forced to resign before the next church meeting that Sunday.
Of all the priests and nuns involved with my family, including my children, my nephews, from 35 years ago to the present day (and my kids and grandkids go to parochial schools, and one son to a Jesuit HS) I know of no instance or accusation at any parish or school by anyone. I do know of two music ministers/choir members sexual activity, but that was in protestant churches, and I only found out because my husband was a visiting musician. Nobody in those instances resigned or left the church.
Campion, why did you fail to post the rest of that sentence?
“...according to an independent, $1.8 million study conducted by New Yorks John Jay College of Criminal Justice, commissioned by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.”
Odd that you left out who paid for the study...
Posts containing potty language and refereneces to potty language are automatically removed on the Religion Forum. It had nothing to do with the substance of your post.
Why not read the report instead of just assuming what it says? Just because it concludes that Catholicism is not the reason for abuse does not mean it is a white wash. It showed very clearly that the consequences of disregarding constant Christian moral teaching on the matters of sexuality lead to the crisis.
The Church did not write the report. You must have missed where the report showed that the Church’s response was typical of all institutions during the time most of the abuse occurred. They relied on so called secular experts on how to handle abusers.
Also how the heck is 4% of the priestly population over a period of 30-40 years evidence of a systematic tolerance of abuse.
The inability of anti Catholics to examine data without their prejudices blindning them always puzzles me. To harbor such hate that facts are repugnant to one is certianly not a Christian virtue.
At a study last Saturday, one of the topics discussed was knowing your weakness and taking steps to prevent it from bearing fruit. I asked our pastor, who is about 60, if he would consider counseling a beautiful 25 year old woman alone in his office, or an 18 year old, or a 15 year old. He was a bit startled, but his response was “Absolutely not!”
The point was that doing so opened him up to false accusations, and worse, opened him up to temptations that still exist.
He mentioned a guy he knew who had been very promiscuous when young, who converted, but still found it tempting to watch porn while on business trips. He had asked some of the men to call him every night he was on the road, because he was less likely to give in to temptation if he knew a friend would call him.
I posted on this thread because the guy was making excuses rather than facing the problem. It’s Ephebophilia, not pedophilia or homosexuality. But that doesn’t face the problem head on. Saying the boy was 14 so it is ephebophilia is hiding from the obvious. And when a Catholic does that, it hurts Baptists as well - all sexual and financial wrongdoing is a huge stain on the name of Jesus.
The non-christians I’ve met don’t distinguish between Catholic priests and baptists - they just say Christians are hypocrites and use that as an excuse to reject Christ. They probably would reject him anyway, but I would prefer they had less ammo...
Not leas disgusting but the way in which you keep homosexual abuse from happening would be different from how to prevent pederast abuse. It is much harder to screen and keep out the latter. But if the majority of abuse victims were post pubescent boys making sure that homosexuals are barred from seminary will do a great deal to keep such abuse from happening.
You might not like it but there is a medical definition of pedophilia which applies in this study. The medical definition of pre puberty does not always match the legal definition. Which is fine as you certainly could have an 11 year old girl who had her first menstrual period. This would mean she was indeed post pubescent but certainly any one sexually abusing her should be regarded as a pedophile for legal purposes as in every other aspect she is still a child.
The report however is not concerned with how the legal system responds to abuse but the causes of the crisis and how to prevent such abuse in the future. That is why knowing that the majority of victims had entered puberty is so important.
The report he is commenting on was done by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
You must not know the gentleman’s body of work or you would never make that claim.
Wonderful response, and again, my thanks.
Actually, there is a definite difference between ephebephilia and pedophilia, and certainly both are illegal. Homosexuals who are attracted to sexually mature or maturing teens are rarely the same as pedophiles, who are attracted to the immature. Further, even though no one would dispute that a 13-15 year old is a child, they are more aware of sexual interaction than a pre-pubescent, and less vulnerable to exploitation. The young males in my family certainly were, as was my husband growing up.
Thanks for discussing the measures your church is taking to protect parishioners. I doubt those measures are ubiquitous in the denomination, though — as is required in the Catholic Church.
Your last paragraph is outstanding, and one of the reasons I appreciate your posts:
“The non-christians Ive met dont distinguish between Catholic priests and baptists - they just say Christians are hypocrites and use that as an excuse to reject Christ. They probably would reject him anyway, but I would prefer they had less ammo...”
May God bless you in all you do, and thank you for today’s conversation.
Mr. Weigel does not support that contention.
Just because the facts presented do not meet your perceptions does not mean they are not facts.
Would I like to see another report outlinging exactly the errors and outright criminal behavior of bishops and even lay law enforcement in covering up the abuse? Yes I would. Would I like it to be a no holds bar report showing clearly how so many failed to protect victims? Yes I would. Was that issued addressed by this report? Not in enough detail and it should be a separate examination.
Modernist Weigel lauds the Masonic takeover of the Papal states:
Deck chairs on the Titanic.
Oh if we have to include unknown, unreported cases that is different. Do you also require that police do the same?
Correct. Most districts give the teacher in question a good recomendation and shove them out the door. Most districts don’t have the pockets to do otherwise.
My cousin took a stand when he was on the school board, and got voted out because of it.
The purpose of the report was not to examine how Bishops responded to revelation of abuse in their Dioceses. That should be the subject of another report. It should be a no holds bar examination of how reliance on secular experts, a misplaced desire to protect the Church and a lack of concern for the victims caused irrepairable harm to the victims.
I know that's the case in my diocese, but yeah, some clear words from Rome and some overdue bishop-removal would clarify the Church's position.
“The John Jay study is less than illuminating on one point, and that is the relationship of all this to homosexuality. The report frankly states that the majority of victims (81 percent) were male, in contrast to the distribution by victim gender in the United States [where] national incidence studies have consistently shown that in general girls are three times more likely to be abused than boys. But then the report states that the clinical data do not support the hypothesis that priests with a homosexual identity or those who committed same-sex sexual behavior with adults are significantly more likely to sexually abuse children than those with a heterosexual orientation or behavior.
The disconnect, to the lay mind, seems obvious: Eighty-one percent of the victims of sexual abuse by priests are adolescent males, and yet this has nothing to do with homosexuality? Perhaps it doesnt from the clinicians point of view (especially clinicians ideologically committed to the notion that there is nothing necessarily destructive about same-sex behaviors). But surely the attempt by some theologians to justify what is objectively immoral behavior had something to do with the disciplinary meltdown that the report notes from the late 1960s through the early 1980s; it might be remembered that it was precisely in this period that the Catholic Theological Society of America issued a study, Human Sexuality, that was in clear dissent from the Churchs settled teaching on fornication, self-abuse, and homosexual acts, and even found a relatively kind word to say about bestiality. And is there no connection to be found between the spike in abuse cases between the mid-1960s and the early 1980s, with its victimization of adolescent males, and the parallel spike in homoerotic culture in U.S. Catholic seminaries and religious orders in that same period? Given the prevailing shibboleths in the American academy (including the Catholic academy), it may be that no clinically or statistically demonstrable linkage will be found, but it strains credulity to suggest that there wasnt a cultural connection here, one that bears serious reflection.”
This latest whitewash represents all the US bishops. Unless they speak out, all are implicated, even those who police their own diocese.
The gay infiltration of Catholic Church is ongoing. The leadership has not yet acknowledged the problem nor enacted the necessary purge to fix it. The problem is self-sustaining because gay and gay-friendly officials continue to recruit homosexual priests.””
Not to mention these perverts are now moving into other churches and children organizations across the spectrum.
When the Church finally cleans its augean stables, that will serve as a model for the rest of these poor infected institutions.
What is your particular fascination with this subject? It seems that you are drawn to this discussion by some unclean attraction because every time this subject appears you are one of the first and most prolific attackers of the Church.
If your sense of outrage is legitimate why do you so rarely post against abortion or give equal time to those many, many things the Church has done well? All of this suggests your problem isn't with the abuse, but with the Church itself and you hold it to a much higher standard than other organizations.
You posted in forum rather than sending me a FReepmail degrading my military service!
Congratulations! A big step up for you!
George Weigel has written and spoken extensively about the "New Anti-Catholicism" rampant in the US today. Do you find him equally credible on that subject or only selectively credible when you think he agrees with you?
That, like so many of your posts, is a highly flawed version of reality and an outright ploy to redirect the dialog. I have only commented in the past that holding a clipboard and large coffee mug in Omaha isn't the same as slogging through the muck under fire. If you want to make the discussion about your paper cuts and limited cable TV while defending your country start another thread.
My inbox still needs regular Clorox treatment from the unsolicited pile of filth you left in there.
Classy. Why did you post earlier that you dont hate Catholics when you clearly do? I would at least have some modicum of respect for you if you just came out and admitted it. You think priests are uniquely prone to be pedophiles because they are part of the Church. Someone can present evidence to the contrary, that the rate of abuse is much lower than in society at-large, but that doesnt fit your bigoted worldview, does it? No, in your mind, any abuse by a priest, any incompetence by a bishop or any attempt to put the rate of abuse in context is solid proof that the Catholic Church as a whole is perfectly fine with molestation of a child.
On an article such as this, you have an opportunity to make coherent points that some bishops should have acted to protect people in their diocese. Or that the Church should have barred gays from seminaries. You would find strong agreement from any conservative Catholic on those points. Instead, your bigotry drives you to hyperbole. You go after the good men of the Church by claiming that they were all in on it, that they are more likely than not to be abusers and the Church, today, actively covers for them.
If you disagree, explain to me how Don't blame us, everybody rapes children® - Vatican is not anti-Catholic bigotry.
Have you ever considered a career as a bullfighter? You seem to be very familiar with bull and successfully dodge every difficult or potentially embarrassing question like a pro.
Why do you say it is an "excuse for the church"? There is no credibility from anyone who behaves as though "the church" is the only locus of child sexual abuse. Focusing on "the church" is dishonest.
So the Catholic Church has done nothing to address the abuse issue? Really? You must attend a different parish than I do. My priest regularly talks about sins of homosexuality and the disaster that the abuse has brought on the victims. Pamphlets are posted encouraging people to report inappropriate behavior, and, as best can be done, mechanisms are in-place to make certain abuse does not go unchecked.
Oh - wait - you don't go to a Catholic Church. You'd have no idea about any of this. Gee, looks like you're throwing a load of crap around, only caring that it makes Catholics look bad. Hallmark of a hater.
Good for your priest.
I don’t need to attend a Catholic church when they publish “reports” like this to know they refuse to accept responsibility for the abuse. Or I could look toward Rome and see the pedophile protector Cardinal Law prancing around the pope. Smoke and mirrors...
You are unworthy of any response from me and everyone on this forum is keenly aware of your true colors.
Attacking another FReeper’s service is a very poor reflection of this forum.
I never attacked your service record, I simply pointed out that you weren't Rambo in response to your chest beating.
Of course it would be real easy for you to substantiate your allegations by simply posting the alleged offending remarks..........tick..........tick..........tick
Hatred is a sin, a mortal sin, one that any Christian of any denomination can see will permanently separate him/her from Christ Jesus the Savior.
You have my prayers, CATHOLIC prayers, for healing of whatever grudge you may be nurturing; if there is none, then I pray for Christ Jesus, Risen Son of the Living God and Lord of my life, to bless you with health, strength, a loving family and many friends, and financial security. I pray this for you because you really APPEAR to be living a hate-filled life. I could be wrong, though.
1. Good for your priest Yeah, surely I'm in the one and only diocese that is actively addressing the abuse crisis. You're right to slam every other priest and bishop for being accomplices to child molestation.
2. The Catholic Church did not publish this report. The article states it was independently done by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Is it not logical that an organization would hire a qualified independent entity to examine a problem?
3. Why do you suppose Law is in Rome, not running his own diocese? Could this be more of the Church "doing nothing" about the abuse scandal?
So again, what is the particular fascination with this subject? Why would a normal, healthy adult male spend so very much time dwelling on a subject this distasteful when he is neither a Catholic nor an altar boy? Why would anyone who claims to have nothing but good intentions partake in a crusade that accomplishes nothing positive and damages the greatest instrument of good in the world? It defies logic and reasoning and points to a far more sinister agenda.
The report looks more like an attempt to understand the problem better rather than an attempt to minimize or whitewash.