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Priests, Abuse, and the Meltdown of a Culture. The lessons of an important new study.
National Review ^ | 05/19/2011 | George Weigel

Posted on 05/19/2011 7:00:15 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

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To: Mr Rogers

All of the Baptist information is based on self-reporting, and there has been no Baptist study over ANY time period.

Are you only focused on the Catholics?


51 posted on 05/19/2011 8:08:28 AM PDT by Judith Anne ( Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Salvation

“Are you not aware, either, of the rigorous examination that seminarians undergo? Two day psyche exams, character witnesses galore, personal interviews by many — and these go on for days and days........and then the seminarian gets to study for SEVEN or EIGHT years before being ordained?”

Won’t help if homosexuals are doing the choosing...


52 posted on 05/19/2011 8:08:46 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: wideawake; Salvation

No blog, just the facts:

Sources: Reuters, Munich archdiocese


53 posted on 05/19/2011 8:09:12 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: TSgt
The article was written by George Weigel a Catholic theologian.

Then why did you choose to criticize the report?

54 posted on 05/19/2011 8:10:16 AM PDT by South Hawthorne (In Memory of my Dear Friend Henry Lee II)
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To: Salvation
Have you not noticed that the bishops that Pope Benedict SVI is putting in place in the United States are quite conservative and pro-life.

Prolife? I have my gripes on that as well, but you change the subject. We were discussing the homo-abuse scandals and you avoided my question:

If they are not still in cover-up mode, why do they continue denying the homosexual infestation?

55 posted on 05/19/2011 8:12:30 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Owl_Eagle

The report and article are a white wash of events.

They both attempt to minimize the evil that occurred.


56 posted on 05/19/2011 8:13:06 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: SeekAndFind
The American narrative of the Catholic Church’s struggles with the clerical sexual abuse of the young has been dominated by several tropes firmly set in journalistic concrete: that this was and is a “pedophilia” crisis; that the sexual abuse of the young is an ongoing danger in the Church; that the Catholic Church was and remains a uniquely dangerous environment for young people; that a high percentage of priests were abusers; that abusive behavior is more likely from celibates, such that a change in the Church’s discipline of priestly celibacy would be important in protecting the young; that the Church’s bishops were, as a rule, willfully negligent in handling reports of abuse; that the Church really hasn’t learned any lessons from the revelations that began in the Long Lent of 2002.

Set in "FR concrete", too.

I'm not surprised some posters are wetting their pants.

These are precisely the exact points made by the "whack-a-mole" gang on FR, week in, week out and no studies, irrespective of their origins, no statistics, no arguments, are ever going to alter their attitude. Never.........ever. Of course they're going to scream "whitewash".

It's entirely evident by now that the general issue of sex abuse holds little interest for the FR hoi polloi unless the adjective "Catholic" is placed in front of it.

So be it.

The Church is being purified, painfully yet assuredly of this plague and in spite of the lavender mafia and their episcopal enablers, it will be just fine.

The report is flawed but not for the reasons parroted by the compulsive naysayers. It's flawed because it skirts around the issue of homosexuality. It says nothing about the widespread flouting of the Church's own discipline by bishops and seminary rectors concerning who may be ordained. It totally ignores this elephant in the living room, as Weigel states.

The fact that this study was even commissioned suggests that the USCCB is still groping around, hoping to be able to avoid the conclusion which is patently obvious to everybody else. This is their legacy. It's the legacy of AmChurch. The chickens coming home to roost. The American hierarchy thumbed its nose at Rome for decades with the "we'll do it our way" attitude and this is what they got.

It's a fitting epitaph for the AmChurch tombstone.

Good riddance.

57 posted on 05/19/2011 8:13:18 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Mr Rogers; Salvation
Won’t help if homosexuals are doing the choosing...

Bingo

58 posted on 05/19/2011 8:14:13 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Salvation

RE: Source for all of that?? Or are you fabricating it?

___________________________________________________________________________________

I believe TSgt is quoting from Reuters:

SEE HERE:

Factbox: European Catholic sex abuse cases in 2010

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/09/us-catholic-abuse-europe-idUSTRE6B83N820101209

If you look at the bottom of the Reuters article, they cite their sources:

Sources: Reuters, Munich archdiocese

(Writing by Tom Heneghan and David Cutler, London Editorial Reference Unit)


59 posted on 05/19/2011 8:14:53 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Salvation; mas cerveza por favor
Meanwhile the pedophile protector Cardinal Law walks the halls of the Vatican. Yeah, Benedict is doing great things!

60 posted on 05/19/2011 8:15:23 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: TSgt

It’s a disgrace. No question about it.


61 posted on 05/19/2011 8:16:38 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: TSgt

Did you ever wonder if your judgments could be in error? I’m not defending Law; however, you have no recourse to know the state of his soul, do you?


62 posted on 05/19/2011 8:17:56 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: TSgt; Salvation
No blog, just the facts

An interesting claim, if there were no such thing as search engines.

63 posted on 05/19/2011 8:18:12 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Religion Moderator; TSgt

Will you please get to the source for this cut and paste? The poster says “Reuters, Munich Archiocese” but frankly I have been unable to find it, to verify the accuracy.


64 posted on 05/19/2011 8:18:18 AM PDT by Judith Anne ( Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: TSgt

Oh, I forgot, maybe you are his Confessor, breaking the seal of Confession! </sarc off


65 posted on 05/19/2011 8:18:51 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Judith Anne
All of the Baptist information is based on self-reporting, and there has been no Baptist study over ANY time period. Are you only focused on the Catholics?

Why do you focus on the Baptists. I don't care as much about them because I am Catholic.

66 posted on 05/19/2011 8:19:32 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Campion

73% of victims, according to the study, were under age 15, so why are you insisting ephebophilia is the problem and not pedophilia?


67 posted on 05/19/2011 8:21:18 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: mas cerveza por favor; Judith Anne

Because it is their typical deflective “everyone rapes children” excuse.


68 posted on 05/19/2011 8:21:23 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: Judith Anne; bronxville

“All of the Baptist information is based on self-reporting, and there has been no Baptist study over ANY time period.”

Wrong. There is no study of Baptists, so there is no self-reporting. There is no Baptist with the authority to require participation, and there is no good reason to believe self-reporting would uncover anything current.

According to bronxville:

“Insurance companies receive from Protestant churches each year about 260 reports involving allegations of sexual abuse committed against minors. This is LESS than the annual number of 228 abuse incidents reported against Catholic priests. That reality is particularly noteworthy because Catholics keep track of even “credible accusation,” which Southern Baptists don’t even bother to determine or keep records on.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2720579/posts?page=80#80

However, as I pointed out:

“There are roughly 300,000 Protestant congregations in America. There are roughly 22,000 Catholic congregations. (http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html)

260/300,000 = <1 in 1,000.

228/22,000 = 1 in 100.”

Thus, based on bronxville’s cited insurance claims, the problem is worse in the Catholic Church.

My point is not Baptist or Catholic. My point is that you don’t solve a problem by pretending it doesn’t exist. Calling it “Ephebophilia” when 3/4 of cases involve those 14 or less, or saying that cases fell dramatically 30 years ago when the study is based on self-reporting is minimizing the problem. I don’t care if the guy is Baptist or Catholic, he should be hammered.

I give you my word: I will not respond to similar accusations against Baptists by saying “Only 3/4 of reports involve those 14 and younger!” or by saying “It went away 30 years ago, and no one living knows anything about it!”

Discipline among Baptists is strictly local. There is nothing above the congregation. But based on bronxville’s numbers, it seems the problem is less common in Protestant churches - but any violators should still be hammered. As in reported to the police and prosecuted.


69 posted on 05/19/2011 8:22:15 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: Salvation
In 2010, seven credible cases of abuse were reported in a church that numbers over 65 million adherents.

You don't wonder how many cases were NOT reported??? I suspect by the nature of the cover-up for who knows how long that there are many...

70 posted on 05/19/2011 8:25:52 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Judith Anne; Religion Moderator

I find it humorous that you and others are pinging the Religion Moderator over the presented facts especially when the source was given.

You can contact Reuters and the Munich Archdiocese is you want more detail.

It really pains some folks to have the truth presented or even discussed.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil...

Incredible...


71 posted on 05/19/2011 8:25:52 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: TSgt; Judith Anne
Because it is their typical deflective “everyone rapes children” excuse.

Even if everyone did, that would provide no excuse for Catholic priests.

72 posted on 05/19/2011 8:26:13 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Mr Rogers
My point is not Baptist or Catholic. My point is that you don’t solve a problem by pretending it doesn’t exist. Calling it “Ephebophilia” when 3/4 of cases involve those 14 or less, or saying that cases fell dramatically 30 years ago when the study is based on self-reporting is minimizing the problem. I don’t care if the guy is Baptist or Catholic, he should be hammered.

SPOT-ON! (but you'll still be labeled anti-Catholic for even suggesting the church did something wrong)
73 posted on 05/19/2011 8:28:50 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: TSgt

Gay infiltration of Catholic Church: Check, once a success, now failed
Gay infiltration of Boy Scouts: Check, failed
Gay infiltration of Military: Check, Maybe
Gay infiltration of adoption agency: Check on same-sex adoption, yet to be appreciated


74 posted on 05/19/2011 8:29:43 AM PDT by Neoliberalnot ((Read "The Grey Book" for an alternative to corruption in DC))
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To: mas cerveza por favor
Also, the idea of blaming Church problems on society is backward. Christians are supposed to the leaven of society.

That's exactly the point of the article. Some Church leaders allowed society at-large to dictate morality instead of Church doctrine. The author points out that it was the influence of the Left that caused these problems. Now the Left blames the Church for being too conservative.

I can't argue with some of the knee-jerk Catholic haters here though on the point that Bishops were derelict in their duty to remove abusive priests. But even before that point, the Church relaxed its views on allowing homosexual priests. They made the problem by shunning doctrine, then failed to correct their mistakes through the 70's and 80's. It's tough to tell, but I believe the conservative resurgence in the Church is setting things right.

75 posted on 05/19/2011 8:30:18 AM PDT by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: TSgt
The bishops’ response to the burgeoning abuse crisis between the late 1960s and the early 1980s was not singularly woodenheaded or callous. In fact, according to the John Jay study, the bishops were as clueless as the rest of society about the magnitude of the abuse problem and, again like the rest of society, tended to focus on the perpetrators of abuse rather than the victims. This, in turn, led to an overdependence on psychiatry and psychology in dealing with clerical perpetrators, in the false confidence that they could be “cured” and returned to active ministry — a pattern that again mirrored broader societal trends. In many pre-1985 cases, the principal request of victims’ families was that the priest-abuser be given help and counseling. Yes, the bishops should have been more alert than the rest of an increasingly coarsened society to the damage done to victims by sexual abuse; but as the John Jay report states, “like the general public, the leaders of the Church did not recognize the extent or harm of victimization.” And this, in turn, was “one factor that likely led to the continued perpetration of offenses.”
I would have expected a religious order to recognize that raping a child is fundamentally a sinful behavior, before they would believe it to be aberrational behavior. It should be a warning sign to everyone that if a religious order looks to "the Psychs" for expert advice on dealing with known sinful behavior, instead of looking in their Bibles for solutions, they prove themselves to be scripturally deficient if not illiterate....We should not expect "psychological treatment" will end sinful behavior. That's what many bishops have believed, however, and look at what fruit it has yielded - $3,000,000,000 awarded in damages and settlements by Catholic dioceses within the United States alone.
-- Alex Murphy, May 20, 2009

[Faithful Departed author Philip] Lawler points out that while less than five percent of American priests have been accused of sexual abuse, some two-thirds of our bishops were apparently complicit in cover-ups. The real scandal isn't the sick excesses of a few dozen pedophiles, or even the hundreds of priests who had affairs with teenage boys -- the bulk of abuse cases. No, according to Lawler, it is the malfeasance of wealthy, powerful, and evidently worldly men who fill the thrones -- but not the shoes -- of the apostles. In case after case, we read in their correspondence, in the records of their soulless, bureaucratic responses to victims of psychic torture and spiritual betrayal, these bishops' prime concern was to save the infrastructure, the bricks and mortar and mortgages. Ironically, their lack of a supernatural concern for souls is precisely what cost them so much money in the end.
-- from the thread Kneeling Before the World

"The Dublin Archdiocese's preoccupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid-1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the church and the preservation of its assets," said the report. "All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the state"....
-- from the thread Pope calls Irish church leaders to Vatican to discuss abuse report


76 posted on 05/19/2011 8:31:17 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed: he's hated on seven continents)
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To: Salvation
I’m not defending Law

Quite the contrary. I ponder what the world would be like if you put as much effort into protecting children as you do the priests who rape them.
77 posted on 05/19/2011 8:33:13 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: Salvation
In 2010, seven credible cases of abuse were reported in a church that numbers over 65 million adherents.

You don't wonder how many cases were NOT reported??? I suspect by the nature of the cover-up for who knows how long that there are many...

78 posted on 05/19/2011 8:35:18 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: TSgt; Judith Anne; Salvation
Judith Anne, I found it with a Google of the first phrase: the link.

But, TSgt, any time you cut and paste from a website include the url or a hotlink - the moderators need that information to verify copyrights. An author, publication, date reference only works for items available only in print form - i.e. something you actually typed in.

79 posted on 05/19/2011 8:35:56 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Neoliberalnot
Gay infiltration of Catholic Church: Check, once a success, now failed

The gay infiltration of Catholic Church is ongoing. The leadership has not yet acknowledged the problem nor enacted the necessary purge to fix it. The problem is self-sustaining because gay and gay-friendly officials continue to recruit homosexual priests.

80 posted on 05/19/2011 8:36:29 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Mr Rogers
Wrong. There is no study of Baptists, so there is no self-reporting. There is no Baptist with the authority to require participation, and there is no good reason to believe self-reporting would uncover anything current.

No Baptist authority, no Baptist self-reporting, no Baptist study, ergo, no Baptist abuse, right?

In my opinion, the problem of the sexual abuse of children is found wherever there are children. When a group, ie public school teachers, are ignored as a potential pool of pedophiles, they operate with impunity. Any church is the same.

81 posted on 05/19/2011 8:36:41 AM PDT by Judith Anne ( Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: TSgt

Either you did not read it or you had your ideology determined before you got past the title.


82 posted on 05/19/2011 8:36:49 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: Salvation

Interesting graph. Implementation of Vatican II appears to have done nothing to increase or decrease a trend that had started long before Vatican II. In fact it appears that cases of abuse were more than four times higher in 1960 than they are today.

83 posted on 05/19/2011 8:37:18 AM PDT by kidd
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To: Religion Moderator

Thank you.


84 posted on 05/19/2011 8:37:26 AM PDT by Judith Anne ( Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: TSgt

I have operated a business that involved children. I know completely what is involved and have reported cases to the police.

On the other hand, much of the Catholic bashing is false in this area. I have witnessed it from the mouths of the priest who were victimized by lying ambulance chasing lawyers and the old men that the attorneys got to testify in court.

Bye, I surprised you, no?


85 posted on 05/19/2011 8:37:45 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Religion Moderator
But, TSgt, any time you cut and paste from a website include the url or a hotlink - the moderators need that information to verify copyrights. An author, publication, date reference only works for items available only in print form - i.e. something you actually typed in.

Understood and will do. ;-)
86 posted on 05/19/2011 8:38:28 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: Religion Moderator

Thanks so much.


87 posted on 05/19/2011 8:40:20 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal
I believe the conservative resurgence in the Church is setting things right.

Call me when the bishops finally admit the homo-infestation and declare all seminaries to be no-homo zones.

88 posted on 05/19/2011 8:40:50 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor
Fags took over the Catholic seminaries and opened the floodgates to perverts while keeping heterosexuals out.

Where did these 'Fag' seminarians come from??? Were they former altar boys???

89 posted on 05/19/2011 8:41:07 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Salvation
have witnessed it from the mouths of the priest who were victimized by lying ambulance chasing lawyers and the old men that the attorneys got to testify in court.

Salvation, I have witnessed the destroyed lives of those who were raped by Catholic clergy. My heart doesn't bleed for your beloved priests.
90 posted on 05/19/2011 8:41:19 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: TSgt

“do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

I will pray for you.


91 posted on 05/19/2011 8:42:51 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Thanks, I’ll never turn down prayer.

And I don’t hate Catholics. Just the incessant cover-up.

TSgt


92 posted on 05/19/2011 8:43:59 AM PDT by TSgt ("Some folks just need killin'" - Sling Blade (2006))
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To: Judith Anne

“No Baptist authority, no Baptist self-reporting, no Baptist study, ergo, no Baptist abuse, right?”

No, there has been abuse by Baptists. It normally involves male/female, is less common (based on insurance claims) and there is no one transferring pedophiles to other positions since no one has authority to do so anyways.

There is also no cover-up by denominations, since no Baptist denomination has authority to cover up, nor incentive to do so.

But there ARE cases of abuse, and I believe any Baptist charged should be investigated by the police. If found guilty, he should go to prison. If there is insufficient evidence to prosecute, but enough for concern, the congregation should fire the guy.

Notice I haven’t said that heterosexual abuse is ok, or that Baptists have no problem, or that it is OK if the girl is 15. There will ALWAYS be tares mixed in with the wheat - Jesus told us so. But we are also told to judge within the congregation.


93 posted on 05/19/2011 8:45:41 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: Flightdeck

He is distinguishing the two attractions to get at the root of the problem which is, in fact, homosexuality and homosexualism. Actual pedophiles are not much interested in pubescent or post pube folks. Pedophilia proper is not generally homosexual in nature. The insistence that this is a pedophile problem is the denial that there is a dominant homosexual element. If it is homosexual then it is normal and right is the unannounced position of the people making the dominantly pedophile claims. Ephebophilia is no better and arguably worse than pedophilia for its possibly less reversible results. None of it should be tolerated. To those making the attack on the Church the problem is the existence of the Church. They generally demand that homosexuality in all its manifestations be legitimate and legal in the society, just not in an organization for which it is a useful tool to attack it.


94 posted on 05/19/2011 8:47:07 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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Comment #95 Removed by Moderator

To: kidd

“In fact it appears that cases of abuse were more than four times higher in 1960 than they are today.”

As I pointed out, the study is based on self-reporting. Who is going to report they have a current pedophile on staff?


96 posted on 05/19/2011 8:48:13 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Never mind, I found it...71% of Catholic priests were former altar boys...http://www.diosav.org/news-2011-05-01

Be interesting to know how many of these Fag priests were abused by priests when they were young...


97 posted on 05/19/2011 8:48:45 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Mr Rogers

Evidently, you did not read the newspaper articles I linked to you in our discussion yesterday. You would have seen that in April 2011 ALONE there were numerous reports of pastors, music ministers, and other staff who had abused both boys and girls, and who were supported against the allegations. One by the pastor himself, others, being popular, by the congregation.

I find it very difficult to believe that, since there are those published news reports, there has been no coverup of other instances by Baptist congregations. There certainly is an incentive to do so — surely you can see it?

There is no denomination free of this scourge. There is only a focus on the Catholics alone, by all the others. I wonder why it is so difficult to understand that? No denomination wants to look at itself, no denomination wants to think “it could happen here.” Each wants to think that theologically or organizationally it is immune to the problems Catholics are dealing with.

Thank you again for your courteous response; you are not saying “Baptists have much less of an issue in this regard” but it is clear that other denominations consider themselves to respond much better than Catholics. This is likely not true.


98 posted on 05/19/2011 8:56:48 AM PDT by Judith Anne ( Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: kidd
Implementation of Vatican II appears to have done nothing to increase or decrease a trend that had started long before Vatican II.

The infiltration of homosexual theologians is one of the likely causes of Vatican II. There are fewer homo-abuse incidents today partially because the population of priests in the West is much smaller and older than in the 1960's. Catholic schools have mostly replaced priests with secular teachers or closed down. Also, nobody trusts priests to be alone with children anymore. That is only a band-aid fix until the seminaries are once again clear of homosexuals.

99 posted on 05/19/2011 8:59:55 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Iscool
Where did these 'Fag' seminarians come from??? Were they former altar boys???

Maybe, but the strait former-altar boy seminarians were methodically kicked out of the seminaries.

100 posted on 05/19/2011 9:03:47 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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