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The Catholic Understanding of the Saints: A Response to Jim West (Part 1)
The SacredPage.com ^ | Friday, May 20, 2011 | Michael Barber

Posted on 05/20/2011 9:25:23 PM PDT by Salvation

Friday, May 20, 2011

The Catholic Understanding of the Saints: A Response to Jim West (Part 1)

 
Earlier this month Jim challenged his Catholic friends to provide some biblical / theological support for the Catholic view of the communion of the saints. Specifically, here was his post:
1. What biblical or theological justification is there to pray for the dead?
2. What biblical or theological justification is there for believing that the dead pray for us?
3. How is ‘praying to a saint’ different from idolatry?
4. Isn’t it idolatrous to place your faith in any for salvation other than Christ?
5. Isn’t the entire notion of the invocation of the saints idolatrous and blasphemous?
I ask because with the beatification of John Paul II there is much discussion in the media about saints and their mystical magical powers to affect peoples lives and I find it all, quite frankly, more than a little disturbing and just downright pagan. It’s almost as though the Roman Church has simply replaced the Greek pantheon with saints and that the old paganism of Rome is still alive and well in the Vatican and its outlying stations.
[NB- please don't take this to mean I have problems with Catholics. My problem is with this aspect of Catholic theology / Mariolatry].
These are fair questions that deserve thoughtful answers. So. . . here goes.

Upfront though let me say: there is a lot here to address. Make no mistake about it, this is going to take some time, thoughtful interaction, and reflection. So I have put a couple other things on hold (my series of posts on Luke-Acts and my series on Petrine primacy) to write up responses to these questions.

I’ve already written up the majority of my response, but I’ve decided against "dumping" it all out at once. I want to think through this slowly. I’m eager to get responses from Jim and anyone else that will help shape the discussion.

That said, today offers the first post. Next Monday will feature another and they will keep coming at a steady pace.

Preliminary Issues

Before I give detailed answers to these questions, I think I have to make some comments at the out start.

First, let me explain that I know the Protestant objections to the Catholic view of the saints very, very well. Although I am a cradle Catholic, I spent the majority of my academic career as a student at non-Catholic institutions. I earned a B.A. in theology and philosophy at Azusa Pacific University, where I also minored in New Testament Greek. I then earned my Ph.D. at Fuller Theological Seminary.

(By the way, I would especially love to hear from any Protestants who have received theology degrees--particularly advances degrees--from Catholic universities. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts in the com-box during this series of posts.)

In both places I was blessed with the experience of studying under and with very bright men and women who sincerely loved the Lord. These individuals taught me much about what it means to live the Christian life. I am forever grateful for their example and their mentoring.

Please let me underscore how much I treasure my relationships with my non-Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. We share a love for Christ in common and, to my mind, that is more important than any theological differences between us. We are in fact in a war and we need each other in the trenches.

The experience however of studying at non-Catholic Christian institutions as a Catholic taught me something else. I learned that very intelligent and very sincere Protestant academics often have a profoundly misinformed view of Catholic theology. Straw man arguments and misrepresentations are perpetuated—often innocently, that is, out of ignorance and not malice—but consistently.

Of course, Catholics also misrepresent Protestant theological opinions at times.

All of this has highlighted for me the fact that there is a real need for honest and open dialogue. That's what I am all about—not theological arm-wrestling. It's not simply a matter of misunderstanding—there are real differences. But I think we talk past each other far more often than we realize.

Catholic Doctrine Teaches Salvation by Works and not Grace?

For example, one line that you’ll hear over and over again is that Catholics hold to a “works-righteousness” view of justification that somehow nullifies God’s grace. The dichotomy between the Catholic and Protestant approach is cast in stark terms: Protestants preach a Gospel of grace, while Catholics believe they “earn” their way into heaven with good works.

This is incredibly frustrating for knowledgable Catholics . . . and we hear it over, and over, and over again. People who view the Catholic Church this way have either actually never read the official documents of the Catholic Church or they haven’t read them very closely.

To disabuse people of their ignorance I simply turn to them to the official compendium of all that Catholics believe, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
'After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself' (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 2011 citing Therese of Lisieux).
I never tire of watching non-Catholics try to process this passage. Many people would never think this is Catholic teaching. It is particularly strange to see this in the Catechism to those who “studied” Catholicism at a seminary. How could such a line appear in official Catholic documents? It just doesn’t compute for them. I’d submit that’s because they didn’t really study Catholicism in school, they only learned a caricature of it.

Just a Hip, New Catholicism? 


“Well, then the Catholic Church has changed its view.” That’s the response I usually get next.

Um. . . no.

Here’s the Council of Trent: “. . . we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.” (Sess. VI, Chap. VIII).

So, to properly understand the Catholic view of the saints let me first insist: the grace of justification is not first “earned” by good works—it is purely gratuitous. It is due to God’s grace. As St. Therese of Liseieux is cited in the Catechism: The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

Notice again that I am not “recasting” Catholic teaching to somehow make it more palatable to non-Catholic Christians. I am citing from official Church documents. And I’m doing so in their own words.

Obviously, there is much more that could be said, but the heart of the matter should be clear: for Catholics, the saints are saved by God's grace—not because they have earned it due to their own ingenuity.

Hopefully, we can put that myth to bed.
 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; saints; theology
Michael Barber is a Professor of Theology. I'm judging that this needs to be an open thread, but dare I hope that it can be a charitable one?
1 posted on 05/20/2011 9:25:27 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Catholic Discussion Ping!


2 posted on 05/20/2011 9:29:19 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All

Barber is going to take this slowly -————— so maybe we can keep the discussion to just this Part I, OK?


3 posted on 05/20/2011 9:30:44 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; YellowRoseofTx; Rashputin; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


4 posted on 05/20/2011 9:31:24 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Salvation

Is this a joke thread. five very concise and clear questions were asked, the author said he was going to answer them. The author then went off on tangents, quoted not a single line of scripture, and offered not even a tiny sample of an answer.

Or is this the first of 237 installments? :D


5 posted on 05/20/2011 9:43:47 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Salvation
but dare I hope that it can be a charitable one

What is charitable to you? Don't say anything against what your church teaches? Some of us are into love - and that requires telling the Truth. And nothing charitable about withholding Truth.

I am citing from official Church documents. And I’m doing so in their own words.

No Christian is interested in man made doctrine and 'their own words'. Christians follow Jesus Christ and they have HIS OWN Holy Spirit Inspired Words in His Book. Thank YOU, JESUS for YOUR Word!
6 posted on 05/20/2011 9:52:04 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: RobRoy

Did you miss the line about Dr. Barber wanting to take the series slowly. First one tonight. Next one on Monday?

Please re-read it.

I think he was trying to clear up some misunderstandings between Protestants and Catholics before he really got into his series. He wanted to show that saints are saved through the gratuitous gift of Christ.

He’s not teaching on Scripture. He’s teaching on a theological level.


7 posted on 05/20/2011 9:54:44 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: presently no screen name

Are you saying that the Bible was not written by men?

Remember this is not about Scripture. It is about theology.


8 posted on 05/20/2011 9:58:46 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RobRoy
the author said he was going to answer them. The author then went off on tangents, quoted not a single line of scripture, and offered not even a tiny sample of an answer.

I guess you missed the rest of the story in post 3.Barber is going to take this slowly . LOL! The hillary approach - I'm speaking to the dumb so I will speak very slowly and articulate so you can 'get it'. So wrapped up in his approach, he forgot to answer them? Or he has to ask his superior for the answers? Or, like you say, maybe it's all a joke.
9 posted on 05/20/2011 10:00:27 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Salvation
Are you saying that the Bible was not written by men?

Are you saying that God did not write His Own Word and did not used certain men to pen it?

this is not about Scripture. It is about theology.'

So it has nothing to do with God because Jesus didn't come to start a 'religion' - everyone knows what He thought about 'the religious'.

It's All about Jesus!
10 posted on 05/20/2011 10:09:27 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; RobRoy
There are comments to the author -- even a couple from Protestants on the site.

Why don't you add yours about how you differ with his theological views?

11 posted on 05/20/2011 10:11:08 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: presently no screen name

Men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote the Scriptures, both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It was just your statement about men’s points of views that made me ask the question.


12 posted on 05/20/2011 10:12:40 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

>.Did you miss the line about Dr. Barber wanting to take the series slowly. First one tonight. Next one on Monday?

Please re-read it.<<

No. I didn’t miss that part. If he want’s to take this slowly, that is his option. It doesn’t mean I must slowly weed through his pontification installments.

Just because someone commits something to print does not mean it is worth reading. If he cannot hit the points with scripture, I’m really not interested in his opinion. Just like a guy that says tomorrow is the end of the world even though it clearly contradicts scripture’s take on it.


13 posted on 05/20/2011 10:25:08 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Salvation

>>Why don’t you add yours about how you differ with his theological views?<<

Not worth it. It is the same reason I will occasionally listen to liberal talk radio, but I NEVER call in. I don’t want to give them the satisfaction.


14 posted on 05/20/2011 10:27:32 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Salvation
I think it is hubris for the author to assume that anyone who disagrees with Catholic theology is "ignorant". It is also not correct that Protestants misunderstand Catholic theology by disagreeing about the doctrine of justification. To say we are saved by grace is true and the Roman Catholic catechism does state this as does Trent, however, the real dispute is concerning the place of faith. From the canons of the Council of Trent we read:

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

I read these and, realizing that they were done as a refutation to the Reformation, I see that these very words dispute that man is saved by grace THROUGH faith and NOT by works. It is one thing to assert we are saved by grace and quite another to say that we attain God's grace through faith apart from our own merit. We are saved by either grace or works and the two cannot be combined. Either eternal life is a gift or it is earned. Anytime good works are mandated as the way to attain the gift, it stops being a gift. It stops being by grace.

When James speak about faith being dead apart from works, it is obvious that he means that good works are how true faith is recognized by others. We show others our faith by our actions but our good acts do not earn the gift of eternal life since all throughout Scripture we are told we cannot ever do enough to pay the penalty of our own sins. Only the blood of Jesus can redeem us. Only by his sacrifice is our sin debt paid. We have been saved by his grace and we receive this grace through faith.

15 posted on 05/20/2011 11:07:29 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Salvation
Why don't you add yours about how you differ with his theological views?

No way - I'm not interested in what 'man' thinks. Bottom line, salvation, when it comes to the things of God, our views are irrelevant - it's what God says is all that should matter. We don't critique His Word, we HEAR and OBEY It.

Obedience is better than sacrifice. And Hear and Obey are not suggestions but commands. One can't say Jesus is their Lord and then don't obey Him/His Word and expect to be taken seriously. Man made doctrine/traditions nullify His Word. So how can those who follow those church teachings think they are OBEYING HIS WORD. They aren't but are made to believe they are.

God's Word is The Final Authority.
16 posted on 05/20/2011 11:40:28 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: RobRoy
Just because someone commits something to print does not mean it is worth reading

Exactly. Worthless babble.
17 posted on 05/20/2011 11:46:51 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: boatbums

A small bit of Scripture for you:

I. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.

John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.

2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 1:22-25 - it’s the “doers” who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.

James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God’s grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”

James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.

James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.

James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the “works” to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).

James 1:27 - another example of “works” is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.

James 2:25 - another example of “works” is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.

Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab’s fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.

James 2:18 - to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, Protestants argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is “before men” and not “before God.” Scripture disproves their claim.

James 2:14 - James asks, “Can faith save him?” Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.

James 2:19 - also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.

James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham’s justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.

Acts. 10:35 – Peter teaches that anyone who fears the Lord and does what is right is acceptable to Him. It is both fear and works, not fear alone.

Rom. 2:7,10 - to those who by patience and good works will be granted glory and honor and peace from the Lord.

Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good “work,” an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.

2 Cor. 9:8 - Paul teaches that God will bless us so that we may provide in abundance for “every good work.” Good works are encouraged to complete our faith.

Eph. 6:8 - whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.

Phil. 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.” Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:8 - good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.” As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done” refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration” in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation” and “works of grace.”

1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.

II. Works of Law versus Good Works

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by “works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (”hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Rom. 3:29 - Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 - Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 - righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 11:6,11 - justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:9-12 - Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.

Acts 13:39 - Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.

Rom. 3:20,28 - in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, “works of the law” can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.

Rom. 4:3-4 - Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.

Rom. 6:23 – this is why Paul says the “wages” of sin is death. Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot obligate God to pay us for our works; otherwise, we are in a system of law, not a system of grace.

Rom. 11:6 – Paul says that if justification is now based on grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Rom. 11:35 - it is impossible to obligate God for payment, and sinful to think we can. We cannot do “works of the law” to obligate God. We are not in a debtor/creditor relationship with God. He owes us nothing. Instead, we are in a Father/child covenant relationship with Him, and He will reward us for being faithful.

Gal. 6:8-9 - the earnings referred to here are from God’s grace. It is a free gift, not an obligation. This underscores that our relationship with God is Father/son and daughter, not employer/employee.

Rom. 8:14-17; Heb. 12:5-11 - these texts further emphasize our father/son relationship with God. Our relationship is familial, not legal.

Rom. 7:6 - we are now discharged from the “law,” that is “works of the law.” We now serve God in faith working in love.

Rom. 10:4 - Christ is the end of the “law.” We are now justified by faith in Christ, not faith in the law.

Rom. 13:8,10 - loving one another is fulfilling the new law of Christ. This is internal and personal, not external and impersonal.

Gal. 2:16 - again, man is not justified by “works of the law.” Again, Paul is referring to the Mosaic law and anything which views God as a debtor to us.

Gal. 2:19,21 - justification “through the law” means justification through the Mosaic law or a legal system that makes God a debtor to us.

Gal. 3:10 – shows that “works of the law” refers to the “book of the law” which was the strict and impersonal Mosaic law of the Old Testament.

Gal. 3:17 - this “law” came 430 years after Abraham. So “works of law” here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not “good works.”

Gal. 3:13; 4:4-5 - in fact, the “works of the law” (not good works in God’s grace) is a curse from which Christ freed us.

Gal. 3:19 - these “works of law” were only good for showing us our sinfulness, but not teaching us how to live.

Gal. 5:4,14; 6:2 - the “law” is of no use. The new law is the law of Christ, which is faith working through love.

Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.

This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.

Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul’s teaching on “works” referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for “good works” - a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace).

Eph. 2:11-16 - this section further explains Paul’s reference to “works” which relates to following the Jewish legal ordinances.

Eph. 3:17 - Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, but we also must be rooted and grounded in love.

III. Justification = Inner Change of Person (Infusion); Not Just a Declaration by God (Imputation)

Psalm 51:1-2 - O God, blot out my transgressions, wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. This cleansing requires an inner change of heart. Many Protestants believe that we are so depraved that God only covers our sins up by declaring us righteous (imputing Christ’s righteousness to us). The Catholic (and Scriptural view), however, is that God is powerful enough to blot out our sins and remove them. The view that God just declares us righteous by “covering us up,” denigrates the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who continues the work of Christ through His work of justification and sanctification (infusing His grace into souls and changing the inner person).

Psalm 51:7-9 - purge me and I shall be clean, wash me whiter than snow, fill me with joy, blot out my iniquities. We are purged and filled up internally, not just covered up externally.

Psalm 51:10 - create in me a clean heart, oh God, and put a new and right spirit within me (not “cover” me). God is so powerful that He brings about a real metamorphosis in ourselves.

Isaiah 1:18 - though my sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though red like crimson, they shall be like wool.

Isaiah 43:25 - I am He who blots out your transgressions and forgets your sins. God does not cover our sins up. He blots them out by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 44:22 - I have swept away your transgressions like a cloud, and your sin like mist. This is a real elimination of sin, not a covering up of sin.

Isaiah 64:5 – thou meetest him that joyfully works righteousness. This means righteousness is not just imputed to us. We can actually do works of righteousness by God’s grace.

Ezek. 36:26-27 - a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you. These are interior changes effected by God.

Ezek. 37:23 – the Lord will save His people from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and He will cleanse them (not cover them).

Matt. 5:3,5,8 - blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, and the pure of heart. These are internal dispositions, not just an external reality.

Matt. 5:6; Luke 6:21 - those who hunger for righteousness “may be filled.” It is an inner change, not snow covering up a dunghill.

Matt. 5:20; Luke 1:6; Acts 10:35 - here are more examples of “doing” righteousness, not just being “imputed” external righteousness. We are not just defendants in a courtroom who have been exonerated. We are children of God endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit by whose grace we can become righteous.

Matt. 5:28 - Jesus teaches that just looking lustfully at a woman is adultery. But avoiding this involves an inner change, a response to God’s grace.

Matt. 6:1 - beware of practicing righteousness before men. We are not just declared righteous; we can practice righteousness as well.

Matt. 8:3 – Jesus cleanses the man’s leprosy. Jesus’ power reaches both the external and internal conditions of human beings. See also Matt. 11:5.

Matt. 15:18; Mark 7:15 -Jesus teaches the interior disposition is what defiles man. Thus, God’s infusion of grace changes us interiorly.

Matt. 23:25-28 - the Pharisees appeared outwardly righteous to men, but inside they were filled with hypocrisy. God desires and helps us effect an inner change of heart. He doesn’t just declare that we are righteous.

Luke 11:39-40 - the Pharisees cleansed the outside of the cup but inside they were full of wickedness. God demands an internal change and gives us the grace to make that change.

John 1:29 - Jesus the Lamb of God literally takes away the sin of the world. He does not just cover up the sins of the world.

Acts 3:19 - repent, that your sins may be “blotted” out. The word blotted comes from the Greek word “exalipho” which means an actual wiping away or removal, not a covering up.

Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11 - again, the phrase “wash away” is from the word “apolouo” which mean a literal removal or an infusion of cleansing, not an imputation or covering.

Rom. 4:3 - it was “credited” to him as righteousness. The word “credited” comes from the Greek word “elogisthe” which means a book entry. God records what there actually is; He does not make a phony entry on the books.

Rom. 5:17 - we do not receive Christ’s personal level of righteousness (which is impossible), but we are made righteous on His account by God’s mercy and the Lord’s work on the cross. The word “made” in Greek is “katestathesan” which refers to a real, actual, ontological change in the person’s soul.

Rom. 5:19 - through “Adam/Christ” we were made “sinners/righteous.” This means that there is not just a relational change in status, but an objective change in nature. We are not just declared righteous, but are actually made righteous. God does not declare something without making it so. For example, in Gen. 1:3, God declares that there is light, and there is light. The declaration is followed by the reality.

2 Cor. 3:18 – Paul says that we are being changed into the Lord’s likeness from one degree of glory to another, by the power of the Spirit. This shows that justification is ongoing, and changes in degrees throughout one’s life, based upon one’s obedience of faith.

2 Cor. 4:16 – though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. Justification does not happen all at once, and is not an external declaration. Justification happens every day, and concerns our inner nature.

2 Cor. 5:17 - Paul says that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. He is not just the old creation that is covered up. The old has passed away, and behold, the new has come.

2 Cor. 7:1 – Paul says that we must cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. Holiness deals with being, what is, because its source is God, who is. It does not deal with what appears to be.

2 Cor. 13:5 – do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? This indwelling of Christ brings about an internal transformation to those who cooperate with His grace.

Gal. 6:15 – for neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Eph. 4:22-24 - putting off the old nature for the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness, involves an internal change. Our lives are actually transformed. This is required in order for us to become adopted sons (not just defendants acquitted in a courtroom).

Phil. 2:13 - God is at work “in you.” God is so powerful, he can actually transform us by working in us. He is not just outside us making declarations about us.

Col. 3:10 – we have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. We are new, and this newness is a continual process of renewal throughout our lives.

Titus 3:5 - justification is a generation of supernatural life in a former sinner. This means a real inner change or infusion, not just donning an outer cloak.

1 John 1:7,9 – Jesus will “cleanse” us from sin and unrighteousness. The word cleanse comes from the Greek word “katharizo” which means an actual “infused” cleansing, not an “imputed” pretend cleansing.

1 John 3:7,10 - righteousness may be obtained by “doing.” One who practices righteousness is righteous. God is not just declaring the person righteousness.

Rev. 19:8 - when we are clothed in fine linen in heaven, the fine linen is “our righteous acts.” It is our own righteousness, from the work and mercy of Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:4 - we are actually made righteous because God is the eternal family, and we partake of this divine nature as children. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. His grace is powerful enough to change us interiorly.

1 Cor. 3:9 - this is because we are His fellow workers. God is not threatened by the grace and glory He gives His children!

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IV. Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a one-time event)

2 Cor. 4:16 - though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed “every day.” This not only proves that justification is internal (not legal and external), but that it is also ongoing (it’s not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior). Our inner nature is being renewed every day as we persevere in faith, hope and love.

John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Heb. 5:9 – Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham’s justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

1 Sam. 13:14 - David is justified here, as God describes him as “a man after his own heart.” No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David’s justification before God.

1 Sam. 16:13 – David is also justified here. “The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.”

1 Sam. 17:37-54 – David is further justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.

2 Sam. 6:9,14 – David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.

2 Sam. 12:7-15 - however, after David’s on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works.

Psalm 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 – David repents of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God’s mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up.” David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

Matt. 16:18-19 – Jesus blesses Simon for receiving a Revelation from God, changes his name to Peter, and gives him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. In John 6:68-69, Peter, justified before God, declares that Jesus has the words of eternal life. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus prays for Peter that his faith may not fail and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles. In these and many other examples, Peter is justified before God.

Matt. 26:75; Mark 14:72; John 18:17, 25-27 – Peter denies he knows Jesus and loses his justification before God.

John 21:15-17 – Peter is re-justified before God after he negates his three-fold denial of Jesus with a three-fold confirmation of his love for him. Jesus then charges Peter to feed the Lord’s sheep. Peter was justified, loses his justification, and regains it again through repentance and love.

Luke 15:24,32 - the prodigal son was dead, and now is alive again; he was lost and now is found. The prodigal son regained his father’s favor through repentance (v. 18-19,21). When we ask our Father for forgiveness, we too will regain His favor and be justified.

Acts 9:1- 17 - Protestants would say that Paul is instantly justified here, when he encounters Christ, obeys His command to enter the city, and is moved by the Holy Spirit. They would say that Paul’s sins are now covered up and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him.

Acts 9:18; 22:16 - then why does Ananias command Saint Paul (who was directly chosen by Christ) to stand up and be baptized and “wash away” his sins? Because justification, as the Church has taught for 2,000 years, is ongoing. It is not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Justification is freely given by God through faith, hope, love and the sacraments of the Church (here, baptism).

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V. Jesus and Apostles Teach that Works are Necessary for Justification

Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus’ teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.

Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, “let your light shine before men that they may see your ‘good works’ and give glory to God.” Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father.

Matt. 5:39-42 - give your striker the other cheek, give away your cloak, and go with him two miles. This faith in action, not faith alone.

Matt. 5:44-47 - this means even loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. Love is a good work, an act of the will.

Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Matt. 7:19-23 - just saying “Lord, Lord” and accepting Jesus as personal Savior is not enough. We must also bear the fruit of good works.

Matt. 19:16-22 - Jesus teaches the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. It is not just about accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We also need good works by keeping Jesus’ commandments.

Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31 - Jesus says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is a good work - an act of the intellect and will.

Mark 9:39 - Jesus said no one who does good works in His name will be able to soon after speak evil of Him. Good works justify us before God.

Luke 6:46-47 - the Lord asks us to do what he tells us, and that is to keep His commandments, not just “accept” Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Luke 6:20-38 - again, beatitudes, the love of enemies, giving to the needy, forgiving, bearing fruit - all these good works justify a man before God.

Luke 8:21 - Jesus says that His mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.

John 5:24 - note that “eternal life” here means sanctifying grace (the life of God within us). We can choose to fall from this grace.

John 5:36, 10:37-38 - Jesus emphasizes that His works testify to who He is. We must imitate Christ’s works to be more fully united with Him.

John 5:39-42 - knowing the Scriptures is not enough if you do not have love in your heart.

John 8:31-32 - Jesus requires works even from those who believe in Him. Mere belief is not enough.

John 13:34-35 - Jesus gives us a new commandment, that we love one another as He loves us. He commands love which is an act of our will.

John 14:15 - Jesus says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” This requires works, not just faith (and not faith alone).

John 14:21 – he who hears my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. This is doing good works for others.

John 15:8 – Jesus requires us to bear the good fruit of works if we are to be His disciples. These fruits are merits in Catholic teaching, all borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace.

John 15:10 - if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, as I have kept the Father’s commandments.

John 15:12 - this is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. Love is both a cause and the fruit of our justification.

Rom. 12:10 - Paul commands us to love one another. Love is a good work, an act of the intellect and will, not just a feeling.

1 Cor. 3:8 – Paul teaches that he who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.

1 Cor. 13:2 – Paul teaches that if our faith moves mountains, but we have not the works of love, we are nothing indeed.

1 Cor. 13:13 - abide in faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Love is the greatest work which justifies us (not faith, and most importantly, not faith alone!)

1 Tim. 6:18-19 - we are to do good and be rich in good works thus laying up a good foundation for a chance at eternal life.

Titus 1:16 - people claim to know God, but their deeds deny Him. Like Jesus, it is our works that testify to our faith in Christ.

1 John 2:3-5 - and by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. This requires good works, not faith alone.

1 John 3:23 - God’s commandment is to believe in His Son Jesus and love one another. Belief is not enough, but good works to perfect that belief.

1 John 4:7-21 - and this commandment we have from Him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. John gives us repeated exhortations to love one another.

1 John 5:2-3 - we know we love God and God’s children when we keep His commandments. We need to love which is manifested in good works and not faith alone.

2 John 6 - we must love one another and keep Jesus’ commandments. We must cooperate with Christ’s grace.

That is a partial answer(http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html). Must go teach peeps how to make music now.


18 posted on 05/21/2011 5:32:05 AM PDT by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
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To: Salvation

but dare I hope that it can be a charitable one

Apparently not.


19 posted on 05/21/2011 7:18:40 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: boatbums

When James speak about faith being dead apart from works, it is obvious that he means that good works are how true faith is recognized by others

Do you believe that “good works” also reveals your faith to God?


20 posted on 05/21/2011 7:20:16 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: presently no screen name

Why am I not surprised that the definition of charitable alludes some.


21 posted on 05/21/2011 10:36:27 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Salvation

Theology hard.


22 posted on 05/21/2011 10:37:40 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: presently no screen name

Yet here you are.


23 posted on 05/21/2011 10:38:47 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: RobRoy
Just because someone commits something to print does not mean it is worth reading

I'm trying to be gracious about this. Don't click on it, if you don't want to read it. Some of the rest of us are interested.

24 posted on 05/21/2011 10:38:47 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: sayuncledave

How beautiful are Your tenets O Lord. May I always listen to them with a joyful heart.


25 posted on 05/21/2011 10:41:37 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Salvation

Bless Mr. Barber for trying and bless you, my dear FRiend, for hoping that we could get somewhere. But, alas, the anti-Catholic swamp of vitriol is impenetrable here.


26 posted on 05/21/2011 2:57:46 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin in 2012)
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To: sayuncledave
Thank you for the Scripture passages. Where you err is at the very start. By taking the verse from James out of context you then proceed to interpret all the other passages as reinforcement for that misunderstanding. There is a vast difference between saying:

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

and

By grace through faith we are made righteous/justified. Righteous works done through the working of the Holy Spirit within the life of a child of God perfect and complete our sanctification.

The former inculcates the efforts of man in making him justified in the sight of God. The latter sees that it is by grace and grace alone received by faith that we are made righteous. No one can logically say that a Christian, once justified and born again into the family of God, is then released to live in debauchery. If they do, they are flat out wrong and un-Scriptural to boot. God did not save us so that we have a license to sin - "God forbid!", says Paul.

The Christian is indwelled by the very Holy Spirit of God and he is a down-payment on our final inheritance with God for all eternity. We are "Sealed until the day of redemption." and we have the promise of God that we will never be lost, cast out or plucked out of his hand. He is holding us, not us holding onto him. From Hebrews 12 we are told:

God Disciplines His Children

4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

God will never leave us nor forsake us but will, as the ultimate good Father, discipline and teach us the way he wants us to live all for his glory.

27 posted on 05/21/2011 6:24:23 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Jvette
When James speak about faith being dead apart from works, it is obvious that he means that good works are how true faith is recognized by others

Do you believe that “good works” also reveals your faith to God?

Absolutely, I believe others recognize our faith by our deeds and James 2 makes that point very clear:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

A dead faith is a faith that is unproductive, it is unobservable by others. The example he uses is in finding a brother cold and hungry and telling him, "Go in peace be warmed and filled.", I'll pray for you, in other words. Does that do him any good? Or is it better to take him in and give him clothes and feed him a warm meal? That is faith in action. It is made manifest by the deeds we do for others. The further example of Abraham being made righteous. We know from Scripture that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. He was justified by his faith before God and his actions proved that his faith was genuine. It has always been that way with God. That is why without faith it is impossible to please him.

But did God need to see Abraham's actions in order to know he has faith? No. God sees the heart of man, he alone knows if faith is real. We can only see the outside and we can only observe a person's actions. We SHOULD be able to know them by their fruits, Jesus said, but I think we can agree that outward manifestations of goodness do not necessarily mean the heart is really changed. God desires we follow him in living a holy life set apart from the world, but only he knows our true motivations.

28 posted on 05/21/2011 6:46:35 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Bigg Red; Salvation
Bless Mr. Barber for trying and bless you, my dear FRiend, for hoping that we could get somewhere. But, alas, the anti-Catholic swamp of vitriol is impenetrable here.

Oh, please. Can't people voice that they don't agree with something on an OPEN thread without being "anti-Catholic" or their words "vitriol"? What makes threads "impenetrable swamps" is gratuitous rhetoric.

29 posted on 05/21/2011 6:58:46 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

Can such faith save them?

And, why do we need others to see our faith? Can others save us?

Matthew 6:1-4 (But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

Faith compels works. If one has faith, one has works and one does these things to glorify God and not himself and not as proof of faith to others.

Works are born from love of God and love of neighbor.

The two commandments Jesus cites as the greatest.

It is not that by my works I will be saved, for I am saved only because Jesus died for my sins. But, if I believe, then works are a part of that belief, that faith. One is not true without the other.

If you are doing works so that others may see your faith, you are doing them for the wrong reason.


30 posted on 05/21/2011 7:51:55 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: Jvette
Works are born from love of God and love of neighbor. The two commandments Jesus cites as the greatest. It is not that by my works I will be saved, for I am saved only because Jesus died for my sins. But, if I believe, then works are a part of that belief, that faith. One is not true without the other. If you are doing works so that others may see your faith, you are doing them for the wrong reason.

Of course we are not in disagreement on this. When James asks the proverbial, "Can faith save him?", who is the "him"? It is the one who is cold and hungry. Can just my faith, and not my actions, save him from being cold and hungry? The obvious answer is no. So then I totally agree that it is by the merciful, love and grace of God alone that can save me. I can never do enough good works to ever pay my sin debt and only the blood of Jesus Christ redeems us.

Consequently, when I live my life in obedience to Christ's commands, I do them out of love and gratitude for such an unspeakable gift that he has given me. Because if righteousness comes from works, Christ died for nothing.

Finally, I wholeheartedly agree that our motivation for our good works should NEVER be to be seen by men, however, when we DO demonstrate the sincerity of our faith by our lives, people cannot help but see and glorify God, not us. I hope you have a blessed Sunday.

31 posted on 05/21/2011 8:17:02 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

Thank you, but I must respond to one small thing in your post.

The question in James is posed after he asks, suppose one has faith but not works. The question is in regards to the one whose faith is without works or whose works are without faith.

May your day be blessed as well:)


32 posted on 05/21/2011 8:26:07 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: afraidfortherepublic

>>I’m trying to be gracious about this. Don’t click on it, if you don’t want to read it. Some of the rest of us are interested.<<

I did want to read it. Problem was there was no “it” to read. It was a teaser for a whole series. That is what I was commenting on. And it reeked of “false scholarship”.

I’m not trying to be gracious. I’m trying to be blunt.


33 posted on 05/22/2011 6:30:26 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: boatbums

Oh, please. Can’t people voice that they don’t agree with something on an OPEN thread without being “anti-Catholic” or their words “vitriol”? What makes threads “impenetrable swamps” is gratuitous rhetoric.

&&&
I apolgize if you thought those words were directed at you, as they were not. Your comments were well stated and intended for civil debate. There are some on this forum, however, who just jump in with hateful anti-Catholic comments.


34 posted on 05/23/2011 1:50:03 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin in 2012)
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To: Bigg Red

Apology humbly accepted. Thank you. I am really, sincerely trying to make sure that my words are “always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that I may know how to answer everyone.”. I don’t always succeed.

Have a blessed week.


35 posted on 05/23/2011 2:54:02 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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