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Camping May 21 Rapture and the Replacement Theology Lie
vanity | 5/21/11 | marbren

Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren

Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.

A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.

The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.

This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.

So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.


TOPICS: History; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: haroldcamping; rapture; replacementtheology
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1 posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:29 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren

I agree with most of what you’ve written, but I think you’ve made some sweeping generalizations.

Not everyone and not all believers and denominations are based on “replacement theology.” Most I know believe what Paul said in Romans, that the grace that God offered the Jews because of their heritage was expanded through Jesus to the gentiles. That’s not a replacement, but an expansion, an inclusiveness based upon accepting Jesus’ life, sacrifice, and death.

I don’t think you can blame Hitler on Luther. The NAZIs, like their counterpart in today’s left-wing of the Democrat Party, will use anything, anyone and any situation to consolidate and expand their power. Hitler used the Church for as long as it served him, then threw it under the bus when Christians like Bonhoeffer began to object (one of those “objections” taking the form of an assassination attempt).

Camping has been deceived by Satan, the great deceiver, the great accuser. Jesus stated very plainly that WE do not know the hour of His return because even HE does not know the hour of His return, that only God the father knows that hour.

For Camping or any other dooms-dayer to say, “He’s coming on Saturday” is one of the most blatant and arrogant of false prophecy.

I completely agree with your advice to drop the dogma, drop the denomination, and study the Bible both as its own book and in historical context to understand what God is telling each of us through his inspired writings.

I don’t know what everyone else is doing today. But I’m going to cut my lawn so that it looks nice enough to put the grill on TOMORROW and then I’m going to cook some steaks...TOMORROW.


2 posted on 05/21/2011 5:00:18 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Prepare for survival.)
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To: marbren; Quix; Alamo-Girl; GiovannaNicoletta; Mad Dawg
Replacement theology is a lie of satan.
3 posted on 05/21/2011 5:02:11 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe
Hitler was actually a pagan. Hitler created religious symbolism from Nordic myths and used these ceremonies in many Nazi celebrations and promotion/graduation ceremonies in the Nazi party, for Hitler Youth etc. His favorite music was Wagner and Wagner's celebration of the Nordic myths.
4 posted on 05/21/2011 5:09:05 AM PDT by carcraft (Pray for our Country)
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To: marbren

Per the plan of God, Jesus is coming again for His bride. Say hallelujah!


5 posted on 05/21/2011 5:09:41 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe
Thank You for your post, Ghost of Philip Marlowe.

Not everyone and not all believers and denominations are based on “replacement theology.

I agree I should have said Most churches maybe.

I don’t think you can blame Hitler on Luther

I agree I admire Luther my point was Hitler used Luther for his propaganda since they were both antisemitic.

I don’t know what everyone else is doing today. But I’m going to cut my lawn so that it looks nice enough to put the grill on TOMORROW and then I’m going to cook some steaks...TOMORROW.

Good idea but you should add God willing to the end of that line.

6 posted on 05/21/2011 5:12:07 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren

INDEED.


7 posted on 05/21/2011 5:16:47 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: marbren
Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler.

Not sure where to start with this, but it's not as if Martin Luther was full of love and charity toward Jews prior to his break with Rome. He was a leading figure in the Reformation. He retained some beliefs that he acquired as a Catholic. He rejected those he believed to have been not Biblically supported.

The collection of smaller states that later became Germany did not exist as a united nation in Luther's time. There were states where Jews settled and were treated reasonably well by medieval standards. There were those that weren't so hospitable. Taken on the whole, it's unlikely that the Germany to come was any more or any less antisemite than other nations on the European continent or the British Isles. Recall the Jews were expelled from Spain by the Catholic king and queen well before Luther's time. Expelled from England as well. Luther was a product of this environment.

Then, to leap forward four entire centuries and to lay blame for Hitler at Luther's feet is just bizarre. Hitler needed an üntermenschen, a scapegoat. Historically speaking, in Europe, this had always been the Jews and so he dusted that ancient libel off and used it again. Hitler was raised Catholic, not Lutheran.

But, Hitler rejected even Catholicism by his early 20's and became a political radical. His ideology was socialism. His religion, if it could be said that he had one above and beyond power, would have been occult-tinged Teutonic paganism. This is amply documented. He sought to co-opt and use the church, not because he believed it, but because he simultaneously wanted to destroy it, and to take it over and remake it into something alien that served his purpose.

To tie this back in to replacement theology, the belief that the Church supplanted Israel or even became Israel in God's promise, well, it's an old belief as you pointed out. It's a more Catholic belief than a Protestant one, but there are numerous Protestant denominations that accept the belief to this day.

However, even identifying the falsehood of replacement theology fell to Protestants after the Reformation, so blaming Luther for actions 400 years into the future, for failing to reject a widespread belief that existed a priori is very misleading. That it was error only came to light as a result of the actions of Luther and other Reformation figures. Those who openly and loudly denounce it today are almost exclusively Protestant or certainly would be identified as such by others.

8 posted on 05/21/2011 5:16:54 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: marbren
The Rejectionist theology has had proved to be a disappointment over the years as much as the announcements of the popular notions of “The Rapture”. Little wonder as it is confused about and deliberately ignorant of the Scriptures.

It's as though they hear the question asked of Jesus,
‘Are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?’ and they answer Yes!

Th nation of Israel in the Middle East today is not the Israel of the Bible despite Rejectionist political and religious theology.

9 posted on 05/21/2011 5:20:16 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: marbren

I don,t know what is meant by camping being a victim of replacement theology. but as far as i can understand it i agree.

The same lie has Gods sabbath changed to the first day of the week instead of the last, and also the tithes that went into the store houses that were to be used for the governing of Israel are now going into the church funds to make the churches rich and to make some fat preacher for hire rich.

You,re right, we need to keep our eye on Israel as it is very much alive and still in Gods hands.


10 posted on 05/21/2011 5:23:36 AM PDT by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: marbren

The church is the bride of Christ and national Israel has nothing to do with it. The Jews are Jews because they have rejected Christ, if they did not reject Christ they would be Christians. In the very early church, of course, you had Jews following Christ but after the destruction of Jerusalem, those believing Jews were now wholly Chrisitan. How anyone can say that Israel, a nation of unbelievers, are still the chosen of God is mind boggling to me. It seems that all this insistence on Israel as having some Christian significance comes from those whose faith rests in pseudo Biblical prophecies. And Hitler was not influenced by Luther for heaven’s sake. Hitler, a Roman Catholic at birth, was influenced by the Darwinian edict of natural selection and the promise of evolution.


11 posted on 05/21/2011 5:26:00 AM PDT by sueuprising (The best of it is, God is with us-John Wesley)
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To: marbren
There is a reasonable amount of Biblical backing for Replacement Theology, which must be ignored to make blanket statements like yours.

For example, the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen from Mathew:

There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet

And then there's Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus answered and spoke again in parables to them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast, but they would not come. Again he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner. My cattle and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage feast!"' But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise, and the rest grabbed his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them. When the king heard that, he was angry, and sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.

"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren't worthy. Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the marriage feast.' Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who didn't have on wedding clothing, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here not wearing wedding clothing?' He was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.' For many are called, but few chosen."


12 posted on 05/21/2011 5:34:46 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: ravenwolf

I don,t know what is meant by camping being a victim of replacement theology. but as far as i can understand it i agree.


I read enough of the camping story, so now i understand what was meant.

Sorry about that, i need to use my clutch before i try to get into gear.


13 posted on 05/21/2011 5:40:39 AM PDT by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: Quix

There is one good thing that comes out of this-—it may raise people’s awareness around the world...


14 posted on 05/21/2011 5:42:00 AM PDT by Califreak (You can't go swimming in a baseball pool)
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To: RegulatorCountry
It's a more Catholic belief than a Protestant one

I guess if you define "Protestant" as "American evangelical after 1820" and "Catholic" as "everyone else", that might be true.

15 posted on 05/21/2011 5:45:58 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: marbren
If Camping is a "victim" of "replacement theology," how come everyone else in the covenant theology camp thinks he's a nut, not to mention grossly heretical?

If Camping is a "victim" of his theology, he's a victim of sola scriptura and personal interpretation.

16 posted on 05/21/2011 5:49:09 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: ravenwolf
I don,t know what is meant by camping being a victim of replacement theology

Camping does not take the role of Israel into account in his May 21 rapture analysis.

17 posted on 05/21/2011 5:50:09 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Califreak

TRUE.


18 posted on 05/21/2011 5:50:22 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: RegulatorCountry
Thank You for your insight, RegulatorCountry. I do agree with most of it.
19 posted on 05/21/2011 5:51:26 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Campion

EVEN HE’S

not SOOOOOOO BAD as to read outrageous

Blasphemous Maryolatry into Scripture like the

Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling Cult’s Magisterical has for centuries.


20 posted on 05/21/2011 5:52:28 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: RegulatorCountry
Hitler was raised Catholic, not Lutheran.

I was raised Lutheran. Both Catholics and Lutherans embrace replacement theology

21 posted on 05/21/2011 5:53:48 AM PDT by marbren
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To: sueuprising
if they did not reject Christ they would be Christians.

God always has a remnant. There are Jews who believe in Christ and keep their Jewish traditions.

22 posted on 05/21/2011 5:56:05 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Campion

I suggest a pie chart. Will there even be a sliver of a percent representing Catholics who do not subscribe to the belief that the church replaced or even became Israel in God’s promise?

Probably not. So, the objection to my statement rests upon what, exactly?


23 posted on 05/21/2011 5:57:53 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: sueuprising
"As far as the gospel is concerned, they [Jewish Nation] are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

(Romans 11:28-30)
24 posted on 05/21/2011 5:58:45 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Thank You aMorePerfectUnion for that wonderful scripture. God’s Word is where the power and truth is found.


25 posted on 05/21/2011 6:02:13 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
I was raised Lutheran. Both Catholics and Lutherans embrace replacement theology

Hitler's family and personal experience of Christianity was not Lutheran, is the only point I was attempting to get across.

26 posted on 05/21/2011 6:03:33 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: sueuprising
How anyone can say that Israel, a nation of unbelievers, are still the chosen of God is mind boggling to me.

Israel was chosen to bring forth the Messiah.

I can't believe the growing numbers of people who actually think all Jews are still chosen and are the same as the Church today even though they do NOT have faith in Christ. Weird.

27 posted on 05/21/2011 6:07:48 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: RegulatorCountry
Hitler's family and personal experience of Christianity was not Lutheran, is the only point I was attempting to get across.

Thank You RegulatorCountry for your clarification, It is funny how the failure of assumption works.

28 posted on 05/21/2011 6:08:08 AM PDT by marbren
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

And this is supposed to mean that "all men" will be saved?

29 posted on 05/21/2011 6:09:23 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: Siena Dreaming
I can't believe the growing numbers of people who actually think all Jews are still chosen and are the same as the Church today even though they do NOT have faith in Christ. Weird.

My point is they have different roles in end times. My conviction is that everyone, Jew and Gentile is saved by Grace through faith in The Lord Jesus Christ.

30 posted on 05/21/2011 6:11:19 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Siena Dreaming

“And this is supposed to mean that “all men” will be saved?”

No. The passage is about God extending mercy to the Gentiles and His future plans for Jews.
As such, mercy has been extended to each in turn. All individuals, however, are not saved,
as the rest of Romans makes clear.

best,
ampu


31 posted on 05/21/2011 6:13:00 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Thank you for posting that cite. The prophecy of Revelation is completely garbled without understanding this.


32 posted on 05/21/2011 6:14:42 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Just as "all men" does not mean every man will be saved, so the entire "nation of Israel" will not be saved.

Those who think that the church has not fulfilled the promise are dead wrong.

33 posted on 05/21/2011 6:17:37 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: RegulatorCountry

RegulatorCountry, I like sweeping statements. Could I say Obama is a victim of replacement theology given that he threw Israel under the bus? What if this lie is more insidious than it seems.


34 posted on 05/21/2011 6:19:10 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Siena Dreaming
Those who think that the church has not fulfilled the promise are dead wrong.

The role of the church is the Bride of Christ.

35 posted on 05/21/2011 6:20:44 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
Thank you for the ping, marbren!

Replacement theology is indeed a lie which can be supported by neither Scripture nor history.

God's plan for His chosen people Israel is right on track, starting in modern times with His bringing His people back from around the world into their land which He gave them, the fulfillment of prophecy on May 14, 1948 when the nation of Israel was born in one day (the only nation in the history of the world to be reborn after 2000 years of nonexistence and to be reestablished in one day, just like God told us it would), the fact that, just like God said, the birth of Israel came before the labor pangs, and, in our own lifetime, the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:3.

A belief in replacement theology results from spiritual blindness. Those who have bought into it are, inexplicably, especially resistant to Biblical truth about the fact that God has not thrown away His chosen people, He has a plan for them which includes an exalted position for them during His millennial kingdom, He states clearly that the day will come when all Israel will be saved, and we are witnessing His plan for His people being carried out.

36 posted on 05/21/2011 6:21:43 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: marbren
The role of the church is the Bride of Christ.

And your point is....?

37 posted on 05/21/2011 6:21:53 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: marbren
The Church, including the remnant Jews, gets raptured soon. Israel goes through the tribulation.
38 posted on 05/21/2011 6:22:48 AM PDT by marbren
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To: sauropod

read


39 posted on 05/21/2011 6:25:47 AM PDT by sauropod (The truth shall make you free but first it will make you miserable.)
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To: marbren; All
Camping is no victim. The victims here are his listeners who cashed in on their life savings following this guy.

So, he didn't take the state of Israel into account? He was busy making his numbers work for folks he could connect with. He's been putting this out for awhile now -- why hasn't any Christian 'leader' stepped forward before this week to denounce him publicly?

Camping just brought the whole end times obsessed crowd to the logical conclusion: A big disappointment.

40 posted on 05/21/2011 6:26:24 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: marbren

Obama is a tool of forces he barely grasps. He’s a victim of hubris.


41 posted on 05/21/2011 6:26:31 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Thank You GivannaNicoletta for your wisdom. New question, in the eternal state, after the millennium, Is there still a Israel Church difference?
42 posted on 05/21/2011 6:27:05 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Siena Dreaming

“Just as “all men” does not mean every man will be saved, so the entire “nation of Israel” will not be saved.”

I agree... it’s just that your statement doesn’t flow from Romans 11...

“Those who think that the church has not fulfilled the promise are dead wrong.”

I disagree, or Paul would have mentioned it in Romans 11. Instead, he says the opposite. I believe you and Paul should have a conversation about this and sort it out together.

Have a great end of the world day today!
It’s sunny here this morning.
Perhaps it’s always sunniest before destruction.

ampu


43 posted on 05/21/2011 6:27:30 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: DaveMSmith
Camping just brought the whole end times obsessed crowd to the logical conclusion: A big disappointment.

Yes, satan has a plan.

44 posted on 05/21/2011 6:28:46 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Quix

Quix, Do you sense a quieting of the naysayers and rapture bashers on FR? Maybe they are just waiting for May 22?


45 posted on 05/21/2011 6:33:35 AM PDT by marbren
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To: RegulatorCountry

I agree


46 posted on 05/21/2011 6:34:19 AM PDT by marbren
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Paul calls the church the true circumcision. He calls the church the true Israel.

He calls Christ the "seed" to whom the promise was fulfilled, not Abraham's biological descendents.

It is not temporal land which is the fulfillment of the promise, but the eternal new Heavens and Earth which CHRIST has inheritd (and by adoption believers from all nations who are in Him).

You are quite wrong.

47 posted on 05/21/2011 6:34:41 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: DaveMSmith

Harold Camping was marginalized, marginalized himself actually, decades ago. The “end times obsessed crowd” as you put it understands that no man knows, not even the Son knows, only the Father. This knowledge comes from actually reading the Bible and what it has to say upon the matter.

That the news media have seized upon this and have had such a field day, for such an already discredited fringe figure, is more a symptom of their disdain for all Christians than for anything specific that one Christian might be compelled by pride to use to try to embarass another.

I’ll freely and frequently say Camping was wrong, is wrong and will continue to be wrong so long as he pretends to have some special, hidden knowledge that the Bible itself directly contradicts the possibility of his having. I know this because I know my Bible. Anyone else who knows their Bible knows this as well.

The individuals who have been drawn in by this, on the other hand, do not know their Bible and would rather believe and follow a man, a man who has been wrong on this very subject in the past.


48 posted on 05/21/2011 6:35:52 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

INDEED


49 posted on 05/21/2011 6:38:27 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren

Scripture doesn’t say much about eternity after the millennial kingdom, but I don’t think there will be any distinctions between people during eternity.


50 posted on 05/21/2011 6:38:37 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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