Skip to comments.Camping May 21 Rapture and the Replacement Theology Lie
Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
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:-) heh, heh. Listen, I had three 15 year olds who told me that daily! You've simply got to step up your game... Particularly on the last day of the world. Perhaps you can have that discussion with Paul after 6pm tonight. I wish you peace amidst the destruction today, ampu
And he'll lose the battle of Armageddon before it starts. The big lie here is faith alone saves. People are flocking to churches who don't follow the Ten Commandments and accept any sinful lifestyle imaginable. Judgement Day will be how you live your life according to your religion, not what you believe.
Correct. Unfortunately Camping and his people are not the only ones.
We've got plenty of people obsessed with trying to figure out the dates/hours right here on FR.
You forgot faith follows repentance.
I suggest you spend a little more time with brother Paul.
There is a natural body, and a spiritual body. This applies to fleshly bodies, bodies terrestrial, bodies celestial and to bodies of people in the form of nations.
There is a natural Israel and there is a spiritual Israel. Belonging to one does not necessarily mean belonging to the other, just as the corrupt cannot put on incorruption.
Interesting response to the logical argument Paul puts forth in almost every epistle about christians being the fulfillment...the "true Israel" or "true circumcision" as he puts it.
Too bad you don't have anything more sensical to say.
I heard the Family Radio website had 3 million hits last month - April. Doesn’t sound marginal to me.
There is a natural Israel and there is a spiritual Israel
And why do you direct these comments to me? Have I said differently?
The Good works come in the sanctification process. God does the work through us. First we must be born again and justified however. The first step is to be poor in spirit and have a need for our Savior.
On to the next end of the world....
Read Romans 11:25-32
You appear to have a wish to be argumentative. I do not.
I have considered the arguments you bring forth in the past
and do not find them persuasive. Perhaps you do and I’m
perfectly happy for you to choose to believe them wholeheartedly.
I’ve no wish to rehash them, now that I reached personal
conviction in the matters we are referring to.
Instead, as much as it depends on me, I wish to be at peace with all
men, as the Scriptures command. This includes those with whom
I disagree about things that are not central tenants of the Gospel.
In my personal experience here on FR, those who wish to argue
can find that argument, but at the end of the thread, neither
side has changed their opinion. Not surprising, since these same
issues have been around for hundreds of years. I’ve also learned
that those who wish to always argue are not pleasant to be around.
Having said that, I suggested you take it up directly with the
Apostle Paul, who left us many inspired books to study. Let each
be convinced in his own mind.
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs
not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
I wish you profitable study - particularly on this momentous day
of destruction and finality.
The works here would be turning to the Lord for repentance and asking for his help in removing sin then when tempted again, suffering the temptation of choice to live a better life with a stronger Faith or falling back on old behavior. This is regeneration. Lip service won’t save anyone.
Regardless, I read this thread, not really to read the posts between the various camps involved here but because I knew that there had to be at least one Catholic bashing post.
Thank you, my brother in Christ, for not letting me down!
Understanding as you do, then, the natural-spiritual duality upon which the Apostle Paul so frequently expounded, then revisit prophecy.
Of which body does prophecy speak in Revelation? The natural, clearly. So, there is a very important role that the natural Israel is to play, both it’s people and the reestablished nation itself.
This refutes the belief that the promise of God to Israel has been somehow transferred to the Church.
Well. I must've imagined all those debates on FR between traditionalists, sedevacantists, Jesuits and "true Catholics" who support Vatican II wholeheartedly then, lol.
“Replacement theology is a lie.”
Too bad you do not find Paul's classifying the church as the "true Israel" and the "true circumcision" as persuasive. And yet you tell me to take it up with Paul? That is truly funny. I think perhaps you need to look in the mirror and say those very words to yourself since you ignore his words.
I have no "need" to be argumentative as you phrase it. I merely state truth directly from the broad sense of Scripture...Paul's in almost every epistle points to Christ and the Church as fulfilling Old Testament promises. It comes up over and over again in his arguments with the Jews. I believe it is you who argue with Paul.
I agree, pew sitting fire insurance does not work.
it never fails to amaze me that there are those who don’t understand a very basic rule:
OT = types and shadows
NT = types and shadows fullfilled in the person of Jesus
Corporate Israel was the Church in the OT, once Jesus established His Church, the Israel of God was open to all who would put their faith in Jesus. These are the ones who are heirs of the promise of God to Abraham.
Which prophecy? Which verse(s) in the 22 chapters are you speaking of exactly?
SD, you are spot on in your posts. God bless you!
The Lord uses all to his own ends.
His promise to be with his Church forever is all I need to know.
Like any family, members can disagree, but, at the end of the day there is still someone to make a decision. Follow it or not at your our eternal peril.
Regardless, I simply wanted to point out the standard Catholic bashing.
It's very good to see someone putting faith in Christ first and understanding how those OT promises HAVE BEEN fulfilled.
“Scripture doesnt say much about eternity after the millennial kingdom, but I dont think there will be any distinctions between people during eternity”
Actually, the description of New Heaven and Earth in Revelation is pretty cool—do you really need much more than that? I’m looking forward to it.
Hasn’t the disobedience of the Jews invalidated God’s promises to them? Absolutely not. Or, to put it in the words of the apostle Paul, “May it never be!” (Romans 11:1).
Ever since the Fourth Century, when the Church adopted Amillennialism and began to divorce itself from its Jewish heritage, the prevalent Christian view concerning the Jews has been that “God washed His hands of them” in the First Century when He poured out His wrath on Jerusalem and allowed the Jews to be dispersed worldwide. An accompanying doctrine that developed over the years is called “replacement theology.” It is the idea that God replaced the Jews with the Church, that the Church has become the “new Israel,” and that the Church has inherited all the blessings that were previously promised to the Jews. Needless to say, these ideas have served as a source of much of the anti-Semitism that has characterized the Church for the past 1600 years.
The idea that God has “washed His hands of the Jews” is thoroughly unbiblical. In Jeremiah 31:36 God says the Jewish people will continue to be “a nation before Me forever.” He emphasizes the point by saying they will continue as a special nation of people until the fixed order of the universe ceases, or until all the heavens and ocean depths have been measured (Jeremiah 31:36-37). In Isaiah 49:14-16 God uses a different metaphor to emphasize His devotion to Israel. He says that He has the nation inscribed on the palms of His hands!
There are three chapters in the New Testament that strongly emphasize the continuing love of God for the Jews. These three chapters have been despised and ignored (or spiritualized into meaninglessness) throughout much of Christian history. The chapters are Romans 9-11. In Romans 9:4 Paul writes that God still has covenants with the Jews which He promises to fulfill. He then makes it clear that the Jews who will receive the blessings are a great remnant that will be saved in the end times (Romans 9:27).
Paul even specifically addresses the question of whether or not God has rejected the Jewish people. He asks, “God has not rejected His people has He?” (Romans 11:1). For 1600 years the Church has answered this question with an unqualified, “Yes!” But Paul answers it by saying, “May it never be!... God has not rejected His people whom he foreknew” (Romans 11:1-2).
But what about their disobedience? What about their rejection of God as king of their nation and Jesus as king of their hearts? Hasn’t their disobedience nullified the promises of God? Again, Paul specifically deals with this issue. He asks, “What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?” (Romans 3:3). And again, for centuries the Church as responded, “Yes!” But not Paul. He responds by saying, “May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar” (Romans 3:4).
Paul becomes so overwhelmed by the grace of God in never giving up on the Jews, that he finally bursts forth with an ecstatic proclamation: “Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!” (Romans 11:33).
But, we'll just have to wait and see. I have no doubt that the infinite mind of God will give us an eternity beyond what we could ever imagine.
I am also looking forward to it!
Hitler’s main problem with Catholicism, from what I have read in his writings, was that it looked to Rome and Italy - and not to anywhere in Germany.
In Jeremiah 31:36 God says the Jewish people will continue to be a nation before Me forever.
Which underscores my view that God’s Covenants are ETERNAL. He is ALWAYS faithful, He always holds His side, even if we stray - abd if we do, He wants us to return.
Thus, a further problem with replacement theology - you would have to throw out the entire Old Testament. Yet the Old Testament points to the New Testament, Jesus Christ.
Thank You RegulatorCountry, One thing that is still a bit of a mystery to me and may fit in. After Acts 15 Should Jewish Christians, not Gentile Christians, observe the Jewish traditions such as passover and circumcision etc. Is it God pleasing? and I do not mean the circumcision legalistic approach.
That’s 12/21/12 ... :-)
As you know I'm against all forms of "replacement theology."
By all "all forms" I mean those beliefs which foster hatred toward the natural branches (supremacism > Holocaust) - to the more benign beliefs that boast against the natural branches.
It is all outside the will of God:
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. - Romans 11:18-29
The sad thing about this is that it will give another “black eye” to Christians, when this is the time to witness to others for the good news of the Gospel of the Lord.
No Reformed, amillennial or postmillennial Christian that I know of believes that they're replacing the Jews in God's eschatology. In fact, it's the modern dispensationalist who thinks that the Jews have been replaced by the church until the church disappears in the rapture!
According to English and every other dispensationalist, the Church has replaced Israel until the rapture. The unfulfilled promises made to Israel are not fulfilled until after the Church is taken off the earth. Thomas Ice, one of dispensationalisms rising stars, admits that the Church replaces Israel this side of the rapture: We dispensationalists believe that the church has superseded Israel during the current church age, but God has a future time in which He will restore national Israel as the institution for the administration of divine blessings to the world.
-- From the thread Answering the "Replacement Theology" Critics (Part 1)
...the very category of replacement is foreign to Reformed theology because it assumes a dispensational, Israeleo-centric way of thinking. It assumes that the temporary, national people was, in fact, intended to be the permanent arrangement.
-- From the thread Replacing Replacement Theology
"The historical premillennialist's view interprets some prophecy in Scripture as having literal fulfillment while others demand a semi-symbolic fulfillment. As a case in point, the seal judgments (Revelation 6) are viewed as having fulfillment in the forces in history (rather than in future powers) by which God works out his redemptive and judicial purposes leading up to the end. Rather than the belief of an imminent return of Christ, it is held that a number of historical events (e.g., the rise of the Beast and the False Prophet) must take place before Christ's Second Coming. This Second Coming will be accompanied by the resurrection and rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18); this will inaugurate the millennial reign of Christ. The Jewish nation, while being perfectly able to join the church in the belief of a true faith in Christ, has no distinct redemptive plan as they would in the dispensational perspective. The duration of the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:1-6) is unsure: literal or metaphorical."
-- From the thread Four Views on the Millennium
To believe [the world will wax worse and worse and lawlessness will increase until the Great Tribulation], you must conclude that either A) Transformed lives don't accomplish jack squat when working in groups, meaning groups can't be transformed B) God doesn't plan on transforming lives in the future, or b) The "transformed life" is but a temporary phenomena.
-- Alex Murphy, November 9, 2007
And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall watch the mountain groweth before him until it fills the whole earth, even unto crushing all the saints beneath it, yet yeah verily ye will declareth victory over whatsoever ye saith until death.Catholic Cleric: Jesus Cancelled Biblical Chosen People
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and keep ye deluding yourselves until that day when I will return unto you and finally accomplish Myself what ye could not do in My Name."
-- Mark 11:22-24, Pretrib Dispensational Version
Helpful articles on Replacement Theology:
What About the Land Promises to Israel?
by Dr. Thomas Ice
The Israel Of God
by Dr. Thomas Ice
Replacement Theology and the Epistle of Peter
by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum
What Is Replacement Theology?
by Dr. Thomas Ice
by Dr. Thomas Ice
An Analysis of Neo-Replacement Theology
by Dr. Michael J. Vlach
(Use of the term "replacement theology" is a reliable marker. Dispensationalist hedgehogs use it, noone else.)
- Romans 14:5-6, 13, 22
Scripture gives us the mind of God if we will only listen and take Him at His word!
Okay ... supersessionism is a lie of the devil, then ... is that better?
And accomplish it he has. Think of how many people who would have come to Christ through hearing prophetic Scripture will now not even consider it and will spend eternity separated from God.
Satan's use of Harold Camping will reap great dividends.
Indeed. Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear GiovannaNicoletta!
Me: "You appear to have a wish to be argumentative. I do not."Siena, you are coming across as not just a n00b, but a rude n00b... very naughty.
You: "Too bad you do not find Paul's classifying the church as the "true Israel" and the "true circumcision" as persuasive. And yet you tell me to take it up with Paul? That is truly funny. I think perhaps you need to look in the mirror and say those very words to yourself since you ignore his words."
Reagan: "... there he goes again..."
You should, instead, be preparing for the end of the world. After the destruction that is coming at 6pm tonight, you can personally discuss these things with Paul in person over tea and some manna crackers...
i don’t follow Camping. if he wasn’t influenced by Jesus saying no one knows the day or hour, i don’t think Luther, Calvin or Augustine had much influence either.
God washes his hands of all those that reject Jesus and His Body on earth, The Church. It doesn’t matter if they are Jewish, Irish, English, German, Chinese, etc. God is not a respecter of persons.
Hitler’s main problem with Catholicism is he didn’t believe or accept anything it taught. Other than that little issue, i guess he was fine with it.
And just how do you know doing evil was in Camping's heart? His predictions are the logical end to end of the world doctrine.
Your raptureready.com site is no better than Camping.