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Camping May 21 Rapture and the Replacement Theology Lie
vanity | 5/21/11 | marbren

Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren

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To: marbren
How long would you wait? As long as God wants.

As determined by whom? The congregation suffers for tenure.

901 posted on 06/01/2011 4:56:05 PM PDT by xone
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To: marbren
DP is heterodox

A bold accusation I see again with no examples of it. While you are praying the Lord's Prayer, think of what you are asking, consider your accusation. FR doesn't know of whom you speak, God does however and He knows the DP and the truth, contrasted with net ramblings. Sometimes freedom is used unwisely, this is a good example.

902 posted on 06/01/2011 5:02:50 PM PDT by xone
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To: marbren
I do like to live in the Now

Hippy doctrine: I find God in the Now, what I have done in the past, doesn't matter because I have a version of the oldest excuse in the Book to explain away my sinfulness:

Genesis 3:

12The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate."

It's not my fault, x, y, or z led me astray in __________ (fill in the blank).

Flip Wilson was wrong about "the devil made me do it." The devil led you to it, but you did it.

The only approval I need comes from my Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm guessing you didn't check with Him before some of these accusations were flung around, considering the content.

903 posted on 06/01/2011 5:19:13 PM PDT by xone
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To: Belteshazzar
Much wisdom in your post. It is very true that we need to be responsible for our actions

Must be the 'royal' we and our.

904 posted on 06/01/2011 5:21:08 PM PDT by xone
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To: marbren

I was raised LCMS (I am no longer). I never heard a word against the Jews and never had the slightest thoughts against them until ten years ago when I found out that they and the liberals are trying to blame Christianity for the holocaust. That is a slander which cannot be allowed to stand.

According to the New Testament, Christians are the chosen, the elect. That is nothing to be prideful about. Jesus made believers into one people. The unbelieving branches were removed and we were grafted in. Is that replacement?


905 posted on 06/01/2011 8:10:27 PM PDT by SunMan (Replacement theology did not lead to error.)
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To: SunMan
I never heard a word against the Jews

This, in some ways, is my experience as well. My Father and I were antisemitic. In LCMS worship and Bible study we were the true Israel, This was fine with me. The real Israel did not really exist, after all they rejected Christ. P#4 When I first met him felt very bad for the poor Palestinians and equated Israel with white South Africa and apartheid.

906 posted on 06/02/2011 6:56:38 AM PDT by marbren
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To: xone
I'm guessing you didn't check with Him before some of these accusations were flung around, considering the content.

Maybe this fiction process on FR is part of the checking with him process. If there is a book it may be nonfiction. I do have thousands of pages of actual documents for the events of my story avilable. I did ask P#4 and my best friend about my FR conversations and they did not say I should stop yet. I am trying to only refer to observed actions of fact, not my log in eye judgments. It may be what the Holy Spirit wants me to do. If not, he has shown many times in my life that he knows how to discipline me. Thank You Jesus!

907 posted on 06/02/2011 7:05:11 AM PDT by marbren
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To: xone
The rest of the week one lives a lie, great way to live.

I agree I am a hybrid christian. I adore LCMS communion doctrine. I live my baptism daily and was sprinkled as a baby. I see no need to be baptized again. I, as a Lutheran, place much emphasis on God's Grace and none on my works or common sense. The sanctified Lutheran life taught by #P4 is fabulous! My other pastors focused on Justification. I love contemporary or page 5 and 15 worship. I love Lutheran hymns. I know of no other place to worship or group I would rather be with in my community than my orthodox Lutheran group shepherded by Pastor P#4. Pastor P#4 is very gracious with my views on matters we disagree on. I have not been called to preach.

908 posted on 06/02/2011 7:17:08 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
I am trying to only refer to observed actions of fact, not my log in eye judgments.

All observed actions of fact, unless you were in on all of them, are colored by the log in your eye, and become less fact, more preception. Your bias has been manifest from the beginning, it is a little late to play detached observer or to put your ax back in the shed.

If there is a book it may be nonfiction

If you cast about the same accusations, you better get insurance for the libel suits.

is part of the checking with him process.

Really, so I guess the instructions you should have got from Him already as a professed Christian are now void for this book, as you await new ones. You may need to test this spirit of yours. He may not be preaching new gospel, but he has rescinded the Law for you for this important work.

909 posted on 06/02/2011 12:05:27 PM PDT by xone
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To: marbren
I live my baptism daily

Please tell me what you think this means. It isn't evident on this thread, or in this vanity.

much emphasis…my.. common sense

Very obvious.

I have not been called to preach.

Something else for me to render thanks unto God for His mercy and grace.

910 posted on 06/02/2011 12:15:43 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone
All observed actions of fact, unless you were in on all of them, are colored by the log in your eye, and become less fact, more perception. Your bias has been manifest from the beginning, it is a little late to play detached observer or to put your ax back in the shed.

Very true, Our memory is distorted after 30 seconds. If there is a book it will be my POV and my experience and my story.

Is it OK for me to say OJ is a murderer? I would say no because the jury found him innocent. Documented facts from the time will be key.

Your bias has been manifest from the beginning,

I agree, Has Yours? Why are you angry, xone, about my story?

911 posted on 06/02/2011 12:23:38 PM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
Has Yours? Why are you angry, xone, about my story?

My bias is for the truth. So yes my bias has shown. This story as previewed here seems to rely on innuendo. Facts have not been forthcoming that tie to accusations. One claims to be a hybrid Christian, and claims the LCMS as one of the origins of the hybrid, yet demonstrates a casual concern for outrageous statements, a casual attitude for factual positions of the LCMS when they are inconvenient to the book's theme. One claims to be Lutheran but demonstrate through words on FR that one is anything but. Alot of claims, without understanding what is claimed. Ignoring half of historical Lutheran teaching, one has got the Gospel right though by some of the statements that would be questionable, but ignore the Law. Luther compared the Law to a mirror where one could with the help of God, realize that they were sinful and needed a Savior. By some of the comments here, that mirror has been lain aside unused.

Why are you angry, xone, about my story?

If I appear angry, it is only because in cyberspace, anyone can claim anything, and to the casual reader you might stand forth as an example of the typical LCMS Lutheran. I want to convey to any lurkers that it would be erroneous to take that view. As I said before, I don't care about this story, or how it is framed by you. It will sell to those with the same bias and disregard for reality. Anecdotes don't reality make.

You said you wanted to converse with an LCMS'er for those 'hard' questions. While ignoring anything asked of you that you chose not to answer, you posit opinion about the questioner. I'm not angry, I am trying to be the one engaged in 'hard' questioning with someone who is uncooperative even though the questioning was their own idea. Evasiveness has no place in honest discourse.

912 posted on 06/02/2011 12:52:32 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone
typical LCMS Lutheran

What if there are, in fact, typical LCMS Lutherans and typical LCMS Pastors? Maybe my original bias was correct after all. What if P#4 is unique? What would a typical LCMS Lutheran Church do if Pastor P#4 did not meet their typical expectations?

One comment that he told me at the start of his ministry was that He did not want to be called a nice man. Also, He said he wanted to teach and preach so that the uncomfortable become comfortable and the comfortable become uncomfortable.

2 Timothy 3:1-9 New International Version (NIV) 1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

This is what I am asking about my local LCMS church and concerned it may be a systemic problem in the LCMS.

913 posted on 06/02/2011 1:29:41 PM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
typical LCMS Lutherans and typical LCMS Pastors

I believe there are, but following 'putting the best construction on everything' my observation would be: repentant sinners in need of and possessing a Savior for the laity, faithful preachers of God's Word as a repentant sinner in need of and possessing a Savior.

He said he wanted to teach and preach so that the uncomfortable become comfortable and the comfortable become uncomfortable.

Typical pastor minus the cool motto.

This is what I am asking about my local LCMS church and concerned it may be a systemic problem in the LCMS.

Here it goes again. You believe that the passage from Timothy describes LCMS, and find yourself comfortable saying it without knowledge of any doctrine that would support you. Are there such in an LCMS congregation? Statistically, probably, but you condemn 2 million plus based on your 'feeling'. I see you still have the mirror on the counter, unused.

concerned

How so, you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge of almost all things LCMS? Your pet peeve is your grindstone and because of it, the LCMS is "loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires" and "men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected."

But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Wait, I think I've met one after all.

914 posted on 06/02/2011 5:10:16 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone; Quix; Alamo-Girl; GiovannaNicoletta
Hi everyone, for about a week now, starting on this thread around post 620 or so and on a few other threads my FRiend, xone, and I have been discussing openly the condition of our current church family The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod LCMS. My local LCMS church has been in a schism for about 4 years based on some very unique circumstances. My local church worships in 2 locations presently. I am an elder serving with my Pastor.

My best friend thinks a book needs to be written and he would help edit it. He has written several technical books. He is a neutral observer and not a member of the LCMS. My Pastor feels if that is what the Holy Spirit wants then I should not resist. It is primarily a story about my Pastor and his family and what we went through In the separation of the heterodox Lutherans (religious Pharisees) from us orthodox Lutherans who live by faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. My Pastor is as Lutheran as they come BTW.
It has nothing to do with heresy or criminal behavior. It has much to do with the Pharisee inability to control him. The LCMS gets involved and it is not pretty.

As to writing a book, I have never done it. When I found 2 Lutherans on FR the idea came to start a dialog to see if a book is a good idea. I am still in that process. xone has been a champion for the LCMS in our discussion which may be a good thing. I do not know. I do not even know what the purpose for the book is. I could do it as fiction or nonfiction. I do not expect any of you to research what we have discussed this is just a gut check should I proceed or stop or stop doing it on FR? Maybe the Holy Spirit will tell my FRiends something. Thank You and God Bless you all.

915 posted on 06/03/2011 11:26:39 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren; xone; Quix; GiovannaNicoletta
I recommend that you follow God's leading no matter what advice anyone gives you, including me.

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8:1

Nothing can happen in the life of a Christian without either His doing it or permitting it or being entailed in it. And that would include corresponding on Free Republic.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Cor 6:19

At this time, it appears that He wants you to write a book - as you continue to follow His leading, the type of book may come into focus. Or it may become apparent that the "book" is not to be a paper manuscript per se but some other form of communication.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. - Proverbs 3:5

To God be the glory!

916 posted on 06/03/2011 11:41:33 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: marbren

I think Holy Spirit is well able to get His will across to you and you are well able to hear.

My own impression is go for it unless and until The Lord clearly blocks it . . . or it’s a done deal!


917 posted on 06/03/2011 2:04:50 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: marbren
. My local LCMS church has been in a schism for about 4 years based on some very unique circumstances. My local church worships in 2 locations presently.

Is this split over doctrinal issues or issues of polity? Are the two subsets served by the same pastor, or has the first original called another pastor to serve? If so, no schism, two congregations. Can both congregations legitimately claim membership in the LCMS? If so, you don’t have a schism, you have a breakup of a congregation which while tragic, especially if the split causes recriminations, it isn’t unheard of. Schism sounds better, but depending on the answers, isn’t accurate.

In the separation of the heterodox Lutherans (religious Pharisees) from us orthodox Lutherans

What heterodox doctrines are you talking about, you’ve made the claim a few times, but provided no examples for this pretty serious (for conservative Lutherans anyway) charge.

xone has been a champion for the LCMS in our discussion which may be a good thing. I do not know.

If I have been a champion of anything, it would be for the truth of the matter. The LCMS doesn’t need me to champion it, but the vague nature of your church’s ‘problem’ does seem to need someone to seek objective truth.

Maybe the Holy Spirit will tell my FRiends something

Are you using the Holy Spirit as some kind of magic ‘8-ball’ or crystal ball to divine your future discourse on FR? If the Holy Spirit was indeed involved directly in this matter, it would have quickly become apparent long ago. As I mentioned before, there are other spirits out there that like to ‘move’ and ‘influence’ Christians. Have you bothered to test this one? Or do you assume the Holy Spirit is at work? Since you are the only one who knows your intentions, you’ll have to do it. By some of your comments and disregard for the 8th Commandment and its meaning from the Lutheran doctrine, it doesn’t seem as if God is involved in this at all as far as coaxing you to do anything.

Write the story or don’t, fiction or nonfiction, it doesn’t matter, what does matter is its purpose. Will it glorify the Lord or marbren, will it edify the body or get your name out as an author? Will it be objectively true, or be true to you because you lived it and your 'truth' is subjective based on your feelings?

918 posted on 06/05/2011 1:31:06 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone
what does matter is its purpose.

One idea, just an idea, might be around the discussion as to the reason why main line American denominations, such as the LCMS, are dead. My experience could be a case study. People make these main line denominations are dead comments all the time. Now just because some denominations are dead does not mean God is dead. Obviously, some people in those denominations are not spiritually dead. I am talking about weeds and wheat. Maybe the weeds, religious Pharisees, are taking over.

To us born again believers, the wheat, it is all about the real moment to moment experienced relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ. We abide in the vine. Die to self daily. This sanctified NOW relationship preaching and teaching is lacking in my experience with the LCMS. Not with P#4. RIM Pastor P#2 also was born again.

People are fearful of change.

919 posted on 06/09/2011 11:39:54 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
why main line American denominations, such as the LCMS, are dead. My experience could be a case study.

You're entitled to your opinion, but where the Word of God is preached and the Sacraments administered rightly, there is life ideed. Your case study is all about YOU, and why with these offered, you have rejected them in favor of another gospel, and a different experience, one where you get an emotional high.

religious Pharisees, are taking over.

In other words, those who don't agree with you.

To us born again believers,

So those baptized by water and the Spirit are not born again? You know so little of salvation doctrine, but are satisified to gaze through your rapture rubik's cude to divine the day of the Lord.

Die to self daily.

This is the second time you have brought this up, and the second time I'll ask, what does this mean to you? Another claim, do you know what it means?

People are fearful of change.

And those abiding in the Lord don't need to 'change' to a situation to satisfy the 'itch' in our ears.

Tough questions eh? You've directly answered none of them and yet you do go on. LOL.

some denominations are dead does not mean God is dead.

Real insight, which god are you worshipping today? Your insight, your reason, your________(fill in the blank). This thread has been all about you, good luck with that.

Not with P#4. RIM Pastor P#2 also was born again.

Re-baptized? What? More importantly, how is it different than the latest infant baptized in your congregation?

920 posted on 06/09/2011 8:15:59 PM PDT by xone
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To: marbren

BtW, after you got all excited about having LCMSers for ‘tough questions’, 250 or so posts ago, I have 5 pages of questions to you, that you haven’t answered. Nice communication there. One might think the questions were too tough.


921 posted on 06/09/2011 8:46:57 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone
Die to self daily. This is the second time you have brought this up, and the second time I'll ask, what does this mean to you?

In my daily born again relationship walk with my Lord Jesus Christ, also known as the sanctification process, given that I am born again therefore justified, decisions are made. I can follow my will or decide to die to self and do the Lord's will. If I follow my will I am controlled by the flesh and a slave to sin. If I follow My Lord's will I am a slave to Christ and free indeed. Now lets say I follow my will and think it is the Lord's will but it is not. My experience has shown me that the Lord has ways of putting me back on the right path, and I am grateful for the discipline. This is the neat thing about the real time in the NOW intimate relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ. LCMS founder Walther got the Holy Spirit stopped working miracles back in the first century doctrine wrong.

Back to my LCMS experience. After talking to P#4 today The main problem may be the DP. Best construction for the rest of the Synod folks is that DP gave them bad information in his cover up of his illegal actions.

922 posted on 06/12/2011 11:19:06 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
. LCMS founder Walther got the Holy Spirit stopped working miracles back in the first century doctrine wrong.

I've got to see a source link where Walther said the Holy Spirit stopped doing miracles. Or where he limited the work of the Holy Spirit in any way. This claim doesn't pass the smell test. While you can make that assertion, something like this requires a proof.

In my daily born again relationship walk with my Lord Jesus Christ, also known as the sanctification process, given that I am born again therefore justified, decisions are made. I can follow my will or decide to die to self and do the Lord's will. If I follow my will I am controlled by the flesh and a slave to sin.

Which makes you no different than any other baptized Christian. Except perhaps that the others may give all the credit to God for the transformation since it IS a gift in the NOW.

sanctification process

Thankfully, you recognize it as a process in this life.

923 posted on 06/12/2011 11:55:55 AM PDT by xone
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To: marbren
After talking to P#4 today The main problem may be the DP. Best construction for the rest of the Synod folks is that DP gave them bad information in his cover up of his illegal actions.

You are learning after all. Sinners abound in the LCMS, how surprising.

924 posted on 06/12/2011 11:58:15 AM PDT by xone
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To: xone; Quix; Alamo-Girl; Belteshazzar; GiovannaNicoletta; Mad Dawg
I've got to see a source link where Walther said the Holy Spirit stopped doing miracles. Or where he limited the work of the Holy Spirit in any way. This claim doesn't pass the smell test. While you can make that assertion, something like this requires a proof.

xone, I found it in the LCMS RIM Document you posted earlier in the thread. BTW Happy Pentecost everyone!

In a sermon on 1 Corinthians 12:l-11, Synod's first president(note: marbren thinks this is Walther) stated in regard to the gifts of the Spirit: However, we must make a twofold distinction concerning the gifts of apostolic times which the apostle names in our text. He mentions nine gifts. Four of them have now disappeared completely from the Christian Church; the other five are still found among believers, though to a lesser degree. Completely gone are the gifts of healing without the use of medicine, the gift of performing miracles, the gift of speaking foreign languages without previous study and practice, and finally the gift of interpreting those languages which one never learned. That is not the case with the other five gifts mentioned by the apostle, with the gift of speaking by the Spirit of wisdom and knowledge, with the gift of prophesying, that is, explaining Scripture, with the gift of a particularly great, strong, and heroic faith, and finally with the gift of discerning spirits. As we stated, these last gifts the Christians of apostolic times had in a greater degree than the Christians of today; however, these and similar gifts are found even now to a certain degree in the Church.12

925 posted on 06/12/2011 2:00:57 PM PDT by marbren
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To: xone; Quix
You are learning after all. Sinners abound in the LCMS, how surprising

I agree we are all poor miserable sinners, beggars for grace in need of a Savior.

Quix, talking to P#4 today he gave me some insight as to the reason God allows all the denominational, institutional religious stuff in Christianity.

It is a weed wheat idea. The self righteous moral policemen religious ones are the weeds and they grow with the wheat( The true universal church that transcends divisions and denominations and has true unity) to keep it strong. The constant persecution of the wheat by the weeds helps us become over comers. There was also something about how in farming wheat the weeds protect the wheat some how from the winds. Not sure I see the analogy yet, I try to get clarification if I remember.

926 posted on 06/12/2011 2:16:56 PM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren

Interesting idea.

Thx.


927 posted on 06/12/2011 5:56:01 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: marbren

Thank you for sharing that excerpt, dear brother in Christ!


928 posted on 06/12/2011 8:37:01 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: marbren
OK, but where does it say that God doesn't do those things?

Completely gone are the gifts of healing without the use of medicine, the gift of performing miracles, the gift of speaking foreign languages without previous study and practice, and finally the gift of interpreting those languages which one never learned.

Know any human doing these?

929 posted on 06/13/2011 6:26:07 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone; Quix
OK, but where does it say that God doesn't do those things?

Wow, interesting, your comment made me pause and think. I have had several God given miracles in my life that usually come from an urgent need of the moment. God is always there in my experience.

Know any human doing these?

There are many cases today where God has given humans spiritual gifts. Let us focus on one, for instance, for discussion. The gift of healing.

I have not personally witnessed, except through the media, a faith healing by a faith healing ministry for instance, but they do exist. I do not have the gift of healing but I am sure that even on FR we could find someone who does. People today, in third world countries especially, have even risen from the dead. My preconceived notions and LCMS doctrine interpretation do not limit God in what he can and does do today.

930 posted on 06/14/2011 7:40:20 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
I have not personally witnessed, except through the media, a faith healing by a faith healing ministry for instance, but they do exist. I do not have the gift of healing but I am sure that even on FR we could find someone who does. People today, in third world countries especially, have even risen from the dead.

Like this:

Acts 9:

The Healing of Aeneas 32Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda. 33There he found a man named Aeneas, bedridden for eight years, who was paralyzed. 34And Peter said to him, "Aeneas, Jesus Christ heals you; rise and make your bed." And immediately he rose. 35 And all the residents of Lydda and Sharon saw him, and they turned to the Lord.

Re: faith healing, is that the same as the Apostles? Does the person you refer to heal them as above? 3rd world risen from the dead? Really, considering it is the third world were they dead, or beyond the medical scope of the area?

My preconceived notions and LCMS doctrine interpretation do not limit God in what he can and does do today.

Neither does LCMS doctrine limit what GOD can do, God can heal miraculously at any time. Man isn't given that gift as in the days of the Apostles. My preconceived notions have nothing to do with it. Again I say, prove it. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence, get something a solid as the Scripture accounts. Don't have it, no real surprise.

931 posted on 06/14/2011 8:06:44 PM PDT by xone
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To: marbren
God is always there in my experience.

Whether one experiences it or not, or senses it or not, God is always there.

Romans 8:28

28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

932 posted on 06/14/2011 8:10:07 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone
Let's get back to my fictional LCMS story. If P#4, does not meet the expectations of the pharisees(weeds,or picture several Dana Carvey church ladies) what should happen? When attacked should P#4 defend himself? How much is compromise with weeds the current reality of the LCMS? Is it a problem?
933 posted on 06/17/2011 7:00:17 AM PDT by marbren
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To: xone
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

A wonderful verse, thanks for posting it.

934 posted on 06/17/2011 7:01:36 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
Let's get back to my fictional LCMS story. If P#4, does not meet the expectations of the pharisees(weeds,or picture several Dana Carvey church ladies) what should happen? When attacked should P#4 defend himself?

I don't deal in fictions, too many variables that change at will, when resolving an issue, the goal posts are then moved. I would address the one fiction I see however: your use of 'pharisee' and 'weeds' to describe the opponents in this 'fiction'. I know the context and the origin of the words, but what is humorous is that you, despite engaging in the same types of behavior are not lumped in with that group as well. You say you aren't a pharisee or a weed because you aren't. Yet your behavior, posting content and lack of openness, does little to indicate that. I am left with the old: "Am I gonna believe you, or my lying eyes.?"

How much is compromise with weeds the current reality of the LCMS? Is it a problem?

I reject your premise, however if you are asking whether one should compromise with other Christian sinners, yes, to the extent that Truth isn't discarded, God's Word isn't compromised, the Sacraments are made available administered in a proper fashion.

935 posted on 06/17/2011 12:01:36 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone

The reason it is fictional is because I have not decided yet what kind of book to write or if I will. Do you believe every church has weeds and wheat? Are the Dana Carvey moral policeman church ladies I am talking about the wheat and my part of the schism, along with P#4, the weeds? Remember a tree is known by its fruits. I am talking here about observed fictional factual behavior.


936 posted on 06/17/2011 3:02:40 PM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
Do you believe every church has weeds and wheat?

If by that you mean true believers and current non-believers and that only God knows the difference, of course, my turn: can the weeds become wheat through repentance? If so, how should they be treated when encountered?

observed fictional factual behavior

Indeed! So which is it? Did anyone confront your DP according to Matt 18? Did you, did Pastor #4? If not, how can you explain your lack of following Scriptural church discipline?

Remember a tree is known by its fruits.

It is true, so what of the marbren tree on this thread? Accused a brother of heterodoxy without proof. Accused brothers of being pharisaical and 'weeds' within the Body of Christ again without proof. Accused a church body of promoting ant-semitism and further, making HIM an anti-semite, the first part without proof or witnesses. Accused this failing by the same church body of complicity, upon discovery, of turning him into a drunkard. Accused a former pastor of denying the power and work of the Holy Spirit and as proof, offering something that fell far short of the mark. Attempted to use the Holy Spirit as a talisman to discern whether to write a book.

Now that is just the negatives, but also we've heard how you are the 'wheat', how you live out you baptism daily etc. Everything but your tithe. Overcoming the same that the Apostle Paul struggled to. No references to the Grace of God connected to the posting of these achievements.

Yes, marbren, the words of Luke 18:11-12 echo thunderously through this thread. They are your words. What to do? Take up that unused mirror and use it. Repent and be absolved. Forgive as you would have God forgive you.

937 posted on 06/17/2011 3:53:22 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone
current non-believers and that only God knows the difference

To me judging, (AKA the log in my eye), is when I think I am better than someone else. Here is a truth, we are all the same. We are all poor miserable sinners in need of a savior. Pharisees and sons of the devil do exist and they are known by their fruit. They think they are better than someone else, they are self righteous, they are weeds they live to control others. Only when the log is taken out of our eye through God's grace can we see to take the speck out of our brothers eye.

The key is to love everyone as they are and not try to control or change them. The only one we can have a bit of influence in changing is ourselves. The Holy Spirit is responsible for everyone else. Loving others means our desire for everyone is to grow in faith in The Lord Jesus Christ.

Now observed actions and behavior are facts not judging. The best construction is always put on actions and behavior.

Rules and standards and constitutions are important.

One problem is the DP lorded over P#4. This was pointed out using Matthew 18 in a private discussion of the proper roles of the Pastor as pointed out in the book of Concord, our church constitution and synod procedure. I was there to witness the discussion between P#4 and DP. The DP was lost and had no response.

Using LCMS rules, what is the proper role for a DP in a conflict between a Pastor and a group of church members?

938 posted on 06/17/2011 5:43:31 PM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
To me judging, (AKA the log in my eye), is when I think I am better than someone else.

Not so, there are many manifest behaviors that are manifestly wrong. To point that out isn't judging by your own set of values, but using God's Word. In effect you aren't judging someone's action in this case you are pointing out that God already has.

The key is to love everyone as they are and not try to control or change them.

Why have the Law if we are not to change? The Law convicts us and shows our need for a Savior.

Now observed actions and behavior are facts not judging. The best construction is always put on actions and behavior.

And yet, here we are. You aren't judging 'fact', you are judging outcomes and intents. To imply you aren't means there can be NO possible reason for any action you observed, other than the ones to which you have attached some sort of malice.

One problem is the DP lorded over P#4. This was pointed out using Matthew 18 in a private discussion of the proper roles of the Pastor as pointed out in the book of Concord, our church constitution and synod procedure. I was there to witness the discussion between P#4 and DP. The DP was lost and had no response.

Example please of the 'lording it over'. Did the DP have no one with him? After this occured then what did you do? Did you involve the Circuit Counselor? Did you go to the Synod?

Using LCMS rules, what is the proper role for a DP in a conflict between a Pastor and a group of church members?

Again with the rules. The DP should moderate the situation and try to bring it to an amicable conclusion. Not always possible. Apparently he failed at this so he is a bad guy for not backing the pastor? The pastor isn't always right, even though you think in this case he is. The DP has a broader responsibility and the two church solution is probably it in a case of irreconcilable differences. Though with the lack of information it is hard to make a case either way.

939 posted on 06/17/2011 6:28:33 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone
Much wisdom in your posts xone and I Thank You. You have given me some refreshing insight and perspective.

Right now I sense I am going to step back a bit on the book project, or maybe this FR book conversation experiment. I was wise not to name names and keep it fiction for now. If there is going to be a book God will write one. I do regret that I might be leaving you hanging and you may never hear my story on this side of the river Jordan.

Thanks again for your responses to my questions and posts and God Bless You!

940 posted on 06/20/2011 6:28:29 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren
you may never hear my story on this side of the river Jordan.

At that point, there will be bigger fish to fry anyway.

941 posted on 06/20/2011 4:22:00 PM PDT by xone
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To: Belteshazzar; Natural Law; Titanites; buccaneer81
Those few Lutheran-in-name-only officials of the era of the Third Reich were just that, Lutherans in name only. Naziism by its very nature is anti-Christian, even pagan. The same could be said for any of the so-called Roman Catholics in that era, they were Catholics in name only. I can be very critical of Roman Catholicism, as you and others know, but I readily state that it does not endorse persecution of the Jews, nor to my knowledge does any other reputable variant of Christendom. Thus even the attempt to brand Hitler as a Catholic is ludicrous. Whether he was Catholic at some time earlier in his life he is immaterial. As an adult he was apostate, pagan, and utterly anti-Christian.

well written, I agree, thank you

942 posted on 06/25/2011 10:52:41 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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