Posted on 05/23/2011 3:30:49 PM PDT by TaraP
Just a question in regards to Camping's failed May 21st prediction....
If the dead are raptured first, how long before the *Church* is raptured?
1 Thes. 4:13-18. This description of the Rapture says "The Lord himself will come down from heaven," "the dead in Christ will rise first," and "we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
It says Jesus will come down from heaven but not anything about Jesus returning to heaven. I believe that the saints will meet Jesus in the clouds and follow him back to the Earth where he will set up his Millennial Kingdom...
So, the question is, does the Rapture of the Church come before the Tribulation, in the middle of the Tribulation or after the Tribulation?
Matthew 24. This entire chapter is an answer to the disciples questions about the destruction of the Temple, Jesus' coming and the end of the age.
Jesus talks about false christs, persecution, and desolation of the Holy Place. Verses 4 to 35 appear to be a chronological narative about the events.
"Immediately after the distress of those days,". "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky,"
"He will send his angels" "gather his elect from the four winds,"
It seems to refer that the Rapture of the Church comes after the Tribulation.
Colossians 3:12 where he is clearly speaking to Christians
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
We as Christians will have to go through the Great Tribulation, the ones that don't are the ones that have died in Christ....
Lastly:
Not sure how Camping came up with a 6p.m date for destruction, but strange enough both the Volcanic eruption and tornado in Joplin happened at 6 p.m in there respective time zones....
Thoughts?
True Believer Syndrome. I read first that “no man knows the hour” so it is the most arrogant hubris to assume that any human scholar can invent the day of my Savior’s return. Additionally, when He returns, I read that his foot will touch the mountain and shatter it, and all the world will know it. Not much secret about that.
So then how do you know when the dead are raptured? they are raptured first, not together with the Church who is alive on earth....
“So then how do you know when the dead are raptured?”
Grab a shovel!
I was stupid enough to waste some time listening to his formulas on one of his recordings and it is basically a weird concoction of numerology, biblomancy and a lot of assumptions.
Thoughts?
Camping is a nutcase.
And no “secret rapture” occured.
But it is a “nice try” for someone who is grasping at raptured straws.
Jesus comes for his church before the tribulation:
1 Thessalonians 1:10 -
“and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”
I want to be an overcomer, I want to have faith, I want to be known by Him ... I work on these goals ... I pray for others and witness to folks so they will have a chance to
find saving faith in Jesus, meanwhile, the time is drawing nigh ... May I stay on His straight narrow path till He calls me, one way or the other & whether it’s one hour or fifty years from now.
I pray all others do the same. I love the parable of the five wise handmaidens and the five foolish handmaidens. Helps me remember what’s important.
Thanks for the ping, sis.
Camping’s billboards said “The Bible guarantees it”, which is the same assurance we hear every day from others here and elsewhere, regarding many other matters. Who do you believe and why?
GOD’s wrath is not the same as the Great Tribulation...
I am just saying Camping could of mixed up the Rapture of the Dead from the Rapture of the church..
that’s all....
There are a huge number of Freepers who are Catholic so don’t expect to get the type of answer you are looking for about the Rapture from everyone.
That being said, I’m no theologian or expert on the order of events in prophecy, but I’ve always took that first part “”the dead in Christ will rise first,” to mean that when a Christian dies their Spirit will be lifted up to heaven at the time of death to be in the Presence of Jesus. And at the Rapture, the living Christians will join them. And most who believe in the Rapture believes this happens at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation.
I do believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture, mainly because the Tribulation period is seven years, and there is allot that needs to happen in just the first 3 ½ years of it. It would take Global Chaos for one man, the antichrist to enter the Worlds stage and deceive nearly everyone LEFT on the planet, (all the peoples of the World in all religions) in such a short period of time. The only type of “Global Disaster” I could think of on that scale would be for 200 or 300 million Christians to just vanish. And the whole point for the belief in the Rapture is we don’t believe Jesus meant for the Saved to have to suffer through the horrors that will happen to the planet during those seven years. And because he loves us so much and does not wish that any shall parish into eternal Hell, he knows it will take a great shake-up of those left to finally get them to listen. The “tough love” that so many of us fathers are familiar with. That we believe is the whole point of the Tribulation. Many will be saved during this time but they will be persecuted horribly, much like the first Church was, with public executions and torture, only to be ended with the physical return of Christ.
First of all, the Tribulation is the "time of Jacob's trouble", a time for purifying Israel in addition to judging this Christ-rejecting world.
Second, God has a history of getting His people off the scene before He sends judgment (Noah, Lot) and tells those who know Him as Savior that we are not "appointed to wrath".
Third, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place in Heaven while the Tribulation is going on on earth and that can't happen if we go up to meet Christ then turn right around and come back.
There is also the issue of, since those who are raptured receive glorified bodies which will not be equipped to reproduce, there being no one to populate the Millennial Kingdom if the Rapture is post-Trib, which would contradict the Scripture which tells us that those who are saved during the Tribulation and survive go into the Millennial Kingdom and work and have children.
There are many, many more Biblical evidences of a pre-Trib Rapture. You really have to ignore a lot and twist a lot of Scripture to make a post-Trib Rapture work.
Apologies to Freepers who might have already followed this link, but we show that the Bible never even mentions the end of the world, and the rapture happened in the first century: www.prophecyquestions.wordpress.com.
Do you know if the dead have been raptured?
Do I?
NO...
It’s a Secret....Maybe.
The Scripture that you cited, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is referring to those who have died (”are alseep”) who believed in Christ. Paul is saying that when Jesus comes in the clouds to receive His own to Himself (called the “rapture”) He will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus—those believers who have died.
16 He will descend from heven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first—in other words, all those believers in Christ who have died before this will be raised first, ahead of the believers who are alive here on earth.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the LORD.
In other words, both believers in Christ who have died and believers in Christ who are still alive when He comes will be caught up together to be with Him forever, but those who have died in Him will be first. This is when we all get our new glorified bodies; this is the redemption of all our bodies.
The Rapture has come and gone.
Looks like no one qualified.
According to one of his followers who was on the radio the Friday before, he said that the physical bodies would rise up from the grave. The radio host asked him point blank, “If I go out to the cemetery Saturday, I will see them come out of the ground? His answer was yes, you would see the bodies come out.
So NO, Camping did not teach them of a secret Rapture. And no the Rapture did not occur Saturday of the living or the dead.
Hi Giovanna!
I understand what you say...
I think what the stumbling block for me is in Scripture where the Bible says the dead are *First* as being raptured.. Would the bible specify who is first, if both the dead and alive are going to be raptured at the same time? that I am not sure of....
So I kind of think at this point that is, maybe the Rapture of the Church will be mid-point which is the dates Mark Blitz has given in 2015 surrounding the Biblical Jewish festivals....
Maybe...
GOD Bless you!
Rapture:
1 Thess. 4:13-18 -
Meeting he church in the air.
1 Corinthians 15:52 -
No signs to herald Christ’s coming for his Church. This will come in the twinkling of an eye.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 -
“and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”
Christians will be delivered from the “coming wrath.”
Revelation 6:8 -
Describes the coming wrath where 1/4 of the population is destroyed.
Second Coming:
Zechariah 14:4 - No meeting in the air, Jesus returns to earth on the Mount of Olives
Revelation 1:7
“every eye shall see him”
Unlike the rapture, Jesus will be seen by all.
2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 indicates that the man of sin can’t be revealed until there’s a removal of a restraining power “Church/body of Christ”
So are you saying that everyone who has died in Christ will meet Jesus in the clouds as he leaves the heavenly throne?
If the LORD will come down from heaven first to meet the dead, where is the Church?
The Lord himself will come down from heaven,” “the dead in Christ will rise first....
If Jesus' purpose for the Rapture is to get His redeemed off the scene before He sends judgment, then it would make no sense to leave part of them behind.
After the Rapture occurs, we will have the Bema judgment, and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Those things can't happen with only part of the Church in Heaven.
I believe that what Paul is teaching in 1 Thessalonians is that we all go, it's just that the dead will go first. And all of this happens in less than a second.
What an awesome, powerful Savior we have!
I Thess 4:17-18
“Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
To give you COMFORT...
we didn’t miss ANYTHING.
Camping was WRONG, that’s all.
PS, IIRC, it wasn’t the first time he GOOFED.
So you are saying the Dead in Christ and the Church are both raptured at the same time???
I don’t see that in the scripture?
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
It says AFTER THAT...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
I hope so Giovanna!
That is why the LORD says keep reding and encouraging one another!
Maranatha!
It says “together with them”..
The living and the dead are raptured almost simultaneously...
so close together, that we see the raptured dead in the air on the way to heaven........
Right on...the marriage of the Lamb in Revelation 19:7-10; marriage to the bride (the raptured church). We are in our
new bodies at this point, the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week have occurred, we have in the meantime made ourselves ready, are clothed in fine linen, bright & clean our righteous acts (the Judgment Seat of Christ having also taken place)... THEN comes Rev. 20:11-21, when Christ comes from heaven on His white horse to finish things. His armies in heaven are coming with Him from heaven, v. 14, clothed in fine linen, white & clean, & following Him on white horses—THAT’S US, all believers who were raptured according to 1 Thess. 4:13-18, being with Him forever!
Come, Lord Jesus!
I understand what you are saying, but the dead would have to be on earth somewhere, if we would both see each other in the rapture....
However I don’t understand the entire way this will all come about, just reading scripture and pondering..
:)
For 1 Thess. 4 passage, I am saying they are ALL believers in Christ. He is coming then IN THE CLOUDS (not yet down to the earth to finish things). The dead in Christ 1st & those who are alive here on earth at that time will be joined with them in our new bodies with Christ.
Secret rapture? Maybe more like double secret probation rapture!
Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
Amen! Now you’re thinking with some reason and logic, TaraP. Yes, we as believers will endure the tribulation.
No, that would be taking that passage out of context. You need to quote the whole scenario:
“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
There is nothing at all to suggest they did anything but what the scripture says they did.
Still the most plausible explanation . . .
to me
is . . . rising to meet Jesus in the air . . .
then Marriage Supper of the Lamb
then 7 years later returning to earth at Armageddon followed by Millenial reign.
Peter tells us that the earth will be destroyed by fire. And then there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Some take this to be mean a nuclear blast of some kind heard round of the world.
BTW, this book was written in 1881; you wouldn't believe how accurate it is!
In the late nineteenth century, Father Charles Arminjon, a priest from the mountains of southeastern France, assembled his flock in the town cathedral to preach a series of conferences to help them turn their thoughts away from this life’s mean material affairs—and toward the next life’s glorious spiritual reward. His wise and uncompromising words deepened in them the spirit of recollection that all Christians must have: the abiding conviction that heavenly aims, not temporal enthusiasms, must guide everything we think, say, and do.
When Father Arminjon’s conferences were later published in a book, many others were able to reap the same benefit—including fourteen-year-old Thérèse Martin, then on the cusp of entering the Carmelite convent in Lisieux. Reading it, she says, “plunged my soul into a happiness not of this earth.” Young Thérèse, filled with a sense of “what God reserves for those who love him, and seeing that the eternal rewards had no proportion to the light sacrifices of life,” copied out numerous passages and memorized them, “repeating unceasingly the words of love burning in my heart.”
Now the very book that so inspired the Little Flower is available for the first time in English.
Let the pages of The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life fill you with the same burning words of love, with the same ardent desire to know God above all created things, that St. Thérèse gained from them. Let them also enrich your understanding of certain teachings of the Faith that can often seem so mysterious, even frightening:
Jesus commands us to be ever-watchful for his return, and ever-mindful that we have no lasting city on earth. The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life is an invaluable aid to inculcating in your spirit that heavenly orientation, without which true human happiness cannot be found—in this world or the next.
I’m not sure if this is what you’re asking, but I think it helps to think through what happens when people die, both believers [in Christ] and unbelievers, before & after the Cross.
Before the Cross:
All those who believed in God’s promise of the Messiah [Christ] and His deliverance went to Abraham’s bosom—that is, THEIR SPIRITS went there. Their bodies were buried/ entombed.
All those who rejected God’s promise went to Hades—that is, THEIR SPIRITS went there. Their bodies were buried/entombed.
From Luke 16:19-31 which describes the places and those in them, you can see that even though they are not in a bodily form, they can still see and talk and feel; there is a consciousness of where they are.
After the Cross:
Jesus went down into the lower parts of the earth (Ephesians 4:8-9) and set the captives free; He took the spirits/souls of the believers out of Abraham’s bosom (all those who died before the Cross, who believed in God’s promises of His Deliverer) with Him when He ascended into heaven.
Since Christ ascended into heaven:
The spirits of all believers who have died go straight to heaven to be with the Lord. Their bodies are on the earth, i.e., buried.
Now, when He comes ON THE CLOUDS to gather His own to Himself in the air, their spirits will come with Him; I think this is why they are first. They will be united with their glorified bodies in an instant. All those believers who are still alive on earth when He comes will also be changed in an instant and united with them and with the Lord Jesus and be with Him forever.
If I had a grandma who trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as her Savior and who died a few years ago, and Jesus came on the clouds tonight for His church [the bride], her spirit would come with Jesus and receive her glorified body in the air. And my body would also be changed into a glorified body and we, and all the other believers, would be be united with Christ in the air and be with Him forever!
i enjoy all the opinions on the resurection and its interesting to observe how the enemy has divided and weaken people for their lack of knowledge.
The dead shall rise 1st before those who are alive, it is only in protocal and respect that Hashem does this, but it will be an instantanous difference between the two groups.
You must understand that G-d is Jewish and has chosen jewish principles to teach about escatology. The resurection will happen on year 6000 of the earth when ever that is. That day that no man knows is “RSH” Rosh ha Shanna. The day that no man knows is an idiom. If i said turkey day you would know what day i was talking about. a day is as a thousand years, 7 days, 7 thousand years.
you must not stop at 1 th 4:18. 1st th 5:1 and more, shaul is talking about what i am talking about. This day will not overtake you if you understand the jewish teachings. Camping did not understand this and has help make a mockery of those who are ignorant of G-ds teaching.
does anyone on this blog know why Rosh Ha Shana is called “the day that no man knows”? lets see who can understand the basic teachings of judisim which is the vine and not grafted in.
If the dead are raptured first, how long before the *Church* is raptured?Thoughts
If someone thinks the dead saints have been raised, it should be easily testable. Check the graves. There should be empty graves.
“So you are saying the Dead in Christ and the Church are both raptured at the same time”
The dead in Christ rise first. But that doesn’t mean the remaining church get raptured later after the tribulation. The Saints are part of the first coming. Two seperate comings of Christ are discribed where the gatherings are clearly different in nature.
First the meeting of the Saints in the clouds. Then the Gospels clearly say that Jesus Christ returns to the earth later and conquers it, when the people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats. If this event is the same as the Rapture of the saints “sheep” wouldn’t there only be goats left on the earth? How could Jesus find sheep on Earth to separate from them when they’ve already been taken to the air?
It’s clear that two different events involving different peoples are described.
The Resurrection
There are 2:
I. The first one - of the righteous
When: Occurs after the Tribulation (last 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week), after the King of Kings and Lord of Lords comes with His armies from heaven, after the great supper of God, after the beast & the kings of the earth with him who have assembled to make war against Him are thrown into the lake of fire [hell], along with the false prophet, after the armies with him are killed, and after Satan, the serpent of old, is bound. [Revelation 19:11-21; 20:2]
Blessed & holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the 2nd death has no power, but they will be priests of God & of Christ & will reign with Him for a 1000 years. [Revelation 20:5]
Who has a part:
1) Old Testament saints [those with the faith of Abraham] - believers in the promised seed [Genesis 12:3]
2) New Testament saints [those with the faith of Abraham] - believers in the promised seed [Galatians 3:8]
The promised seed = Jesus
3) The souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimoney of Jesus & because of the word of God, & those who have not worshiped the beast or his image, & have not received the mark upon their forehead & upon their hand; they come to life & reign with Christ for 1000 years [Revelation 20:4]
These are Tribulation saints—those who trust in the Lord Jesus during the 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week, who have been martyred for their faith in Him.
II. The second one - of the dead
When: The rest of the dead that come to life after the 1000 years are completed.
They will stand before a great white throne & Him who sits upon it and be judged from the things which were written in books, according to their deeds. [Revelation 20:11-15]
Their final destination = Revelation 20:14-15
The sheep and goat judgment spoken of by our Lord in Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment of all the nations, as to how they treated the King’s followers...to the extent that they did not do it (feed, give drink, invite in, clothe)to the least of these, they did not do it to Him, v. 45
This will also take place when the Son of Man comes in His glory, & all the angels with Him, and sits on His glorious throne in Jerusalem, literally, to establish justice and righteousness. The surviving peoples of the nations [from the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week] will be divided according to the things listed and the sheep nations will go into eternal life & the goat nations will go away into eternal punishment.
The Scriptures, both OT & NT, imply that the rapture of the church will occur BEFORE the great tribulation, or tribulation, that is described in Matthew 24:21; in other words, before the wrath of God is poured out.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, “For God has not destined us (believers, i.e., the church) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” This outpouring of God’s wrath is called the Day of the Lord, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11.
If God’s wrath is coming at mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week (which is when I believe the Scriptures say it is coming, not at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week), then the church must be raptured by mid-point; the church cannot be here when God’s wrath begins. The abomination of desolation/man of lawlessness/little horn/antichrist seats himself in the temple in Jerusalem and demands worship at the mid-point of the Week. The 2 witnesses also go up at the mid-point (Revelation 11).
[Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4]
All this to say, the Scriptures strongly imply the rapture will occur before the mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week and explicitly say it will occur before the Day of the Lord begins, or mid-point. And, our Lord said in Matthew 24:36 that all the events described in these verses: of that day & hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone—which is why Harold Camping is a false teacher.
The Scriptures, both OT & NT, imply that the rapture of the church will occur BEFORE the great tribulation, or tribulation, that is described in Matthew 24:21; in other words, before the wrath of God is poured out. It could occur any time BEFORE the mid-point.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, “For God has not destined us (believers, i.e., the church) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” This outpouring of God’s wrath begins with the Day of the Lord, according to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11.
If God’s wrath is coming at mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week, then the church must be raptured by mid-point; the church cannot be here when God’s wrath begins.
The abomination of desolation/man of lawlessness/little horn/antichrist (synonymous) seats himself in the temple in Jerusalem and demands worship at the mid-point of the Week. The 2 witnesses also go up at the mid-point [Revelation 11].[Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4]
All this to say, the Scriptures strongly imply the rapture will occur before the mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week and explicitly say it will occur before the Day of the Lord begins, or mid-point.
And, our Lord said in Matthew 24:36 that all the events described in these verses [Matthew 24]: “of that day & hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”—which is why Harold Camping is a false teacher.
So did they die again and get reburied?
I also do not know how Camping came up with his 6pm timestamp, apart from knowing that he was wrong.
As for the Joplin tornado, it did not happen at 6pm. Touch down was at 5.41pm. Source: The tornado touched down at 5:41 p.m. Sunday -- 24 minutes after a warning was issued -- said Thomas Schwein, central regional director for the National Weather Service. It grew to as wide as three-quarters of a mile at one point along its estimated four-mile track, according to Missouri's State Emergency Management Agency.
As for the volcanic eruption in Iceland, Grimsvotn erupted at 5.30pm local time on Saturday. Source: Satellite Photos Show Grimvotn Volcano Eruption From Space - 2 hours ago The Grimvotn volcano began erupting Saturday at 5:30 pm local time on May 21. ... [Photos of Grimsvotn Volcano Lightning Show]
Thus, none of the two events happened at 6 pm local time, unless rounding up is allowed (and if that is the case, then it is a guesstimate rather than a prophecy). Bottom line is that Camping is a false prophet no matter how the bread is sliced, and that is based on Biblical measures for a false prophet (if one prophesies something and it does not happen). His day was off, and his timing was also off.
Unless ofcourse there is rounding off in heaven.
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