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An Open Letter to Harold Camping (From James White, the man who debated him)
Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | 05/24/2011 | Dr. James White

Posted on 05/24/2011 8:44:52 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

On Open Letter to Harold Camping of Family Radio

Dear Mr. Camping:

In July of 2009 you and I engaged in a debate on the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program concerning your teaching that the church age had ended and that Christ would return on May 21, 2011. I trust you recall our exchange. I am also aware that you have at least seen my book, Dangerous Airwaves: Harold Camping Refuted and Christ's Church Defended. I have been seeking to warn people about your teachings, sir, for about a decade. I know others have been warning the church about you longer than I.

Mr. Camping I am writing to seek your repentance and the most God-glorifying outcome of the debacle of your failed May 21, 2011 prophecy/teaching. I am not writing to engage in debate with you. The time for debate ended on May 22, 2011. It is now time to urge you to repent and seek to undo the massive damage you have done, first and foremost, to the cause of Christ.

Let me first list the items you need to repent of, openly and publicly (for you are a public person, and your teachings were disseminated all around the world).

You need to repent of your abuse of the Bible, based upon claims of latter-day opening of understandings no one else has, allegedly, ever had, based upon the horrific misreading of the books of Revelation and Daniel. The Bible is not a code book, Mr. Camping, and it never has been. You have attacked the grammatical/historical means of honoring the intention and meaning of the original authors, and in so doing, have turned the Bible into your own private playground where you, and you alone, set the rules. You decided that certain numbers have certain meanings, and you alone decided which numbers could be added to others. You told your audiences that you were simply teaching the Bible, when you were doing nothing of the sort. Unless you honor the intention of the original authors, which means doing difficult exegetical work, studying languages and backgrounds, you have no business saying you are representing the Bible. This has been your primary error for decades on end, and I know I am not the first minister of the gospel to seek to correct you about this. Your utterly fallacious means of interpretation of the Bible has led to the mockery of the Christian faith all around the world, and you alone must repent for your willful rejection of the correction offered by many to you over the years.

You need to repent of your repeated date-setting, and your twisting of those Scriptures that plainly state that we do not now know, and will never know, the date of the coming of Christ, until it happens. You have been proven wrong multiple times now, and it is time for you to admit that you have been in error every single time you have argued that we can, in fact, know.

You must repent of your many unbiblical teachings, teachings which have grown out of your rebellion against Christ's Church. First and foremost, you must repent of your attack upon the church. You must return to the church (I would suggest the local Christian Reformed Church from which you made your original defection) in repentance and seek to place yourself under their care, repenting for your schism. You must openly and publicly abjure your teaching that Satan rules in the churches, and that all ministers of the gospel since 1988 are, in fact, servants of Satan. You must call all listeners of Family Radio to return to their churches with repentant hearts. You must instruct them to seek to learn to read the Bible aright, to seek to interpret the Bible in light of its original meanings and intention, not as a secret, gnostic code-book.

You must likewise abjure and repent of the other false teachings you have been promulgating, including, but not limited to, such teachings as Jesus having died twice, your new annihilationism teaching, etc. You once held to mainly orthodox views, but, when you refused godly counsel and went out on your own, you planted the seeds of your own destruction, which have now sprouted, over night it seems, into the crop of condemnation you now rightly face.

You must likewise repent of the perversion of the gospel you have been teaching, wherein you have not only removed repentance and faith under the guise of "works" (neither are works, both are the gifts of God to His elect by His Spirit, but remain part and parcel of the gospel call), but you clearly, in these last days, added belief in your own May 21, 2011 teaching to the gospel itself, saying that those who did not believe this teaching would experience eternal torment. You have been preaching a false gospel, Mr. Camping, and you must repent for this.

The time for haggling and debating has passed, Mr. Camping. Your teaching has been disproven, and your only hope is to be found in complete repentance from your false teachings. I fear if you seek to rescue your reputation, you will end your life under the wrath of God. Your unwillingness to listen to counsel has already caused great damage to the cause of Christ. You have one final chance for redemption, sir. Do not remain stiff-necked. Repent and turn from your ways.

James White Alpha and Omega Ministries


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: haroldcamping; jameswhite; openletter; rapture
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1 posted on 05/24/2011 8:45:04 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Unfortunately Camping has spiritualized his latest failure, only to see it repeated in October.


2 posted on 05/24/2011 8:48:35 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: SeekAndFind

3 posted on 05/24/2011 8:55:09 PM PDT by Brandonmark (News Coverage)
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To: Brandonmark

That’s a very interesting billboard. I wonder where the ad was placed and who spent the money to put it up...


4 posted on 05/24/2011 8:55:58 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind
After No Rapture, 'That was awkward' Billboard Pops Up
5 posted on 05/24/2011 9:00:48 PM PDT by Brandonmark (News Coverage)
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To: SeekAndFind

I think mr. camping also received a ton of money as part of this scam.

The first and foremost demand should be the return of those monies.

And now he is looking to cash in again...?

I guest Gene Scott wasn’t wrong when he spent years not doing any preaching but just demanding money. Angrily. Yet people sent it in.

Face it folks — no matter what we do for a living there will never be better cash prospects (tax-free!) than media-based preaching!

I wish I was as attractive in R/L as my words are on the interwebz, dangit! ;) :)


6 posted on 05/24/2011 9:01:19 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Herman Cain 2012)
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To: Godzilla

RE: Unfortunately Camping has spiritualized his latest failure, only to see it repeated in October.


If you listen to his explanations, it is interesting that Camping completely avoids any kind of plain reading of the bible and refuses to take its plain meaning.

Everything has to be in the form of some kind of mathematical formula that must be dissected and understood through complex calculations.

The sad part is that after he proves himself a false prophet, people are still going to listen to him. These people are like liberals... they continue to believe things that have been proven to be false.


7 posted on 05/24/2011 9:03:21 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind; Brandonmark

$250 for a day? 10 people $25?

Heck for a massive “I told ya so ya cheating liar” I would pony up a 1/4 of a C-note.


8 posted on 05/24/2011 9:04:56 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Herman Cain 2012)
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To: SeekAndFind

>>These people are like liberals... they continue to believe things that have been proven to be false.<<

True — camping should run for president.


9 posted on 05/24/2011 9:05:56 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Herman Cain 2012)
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To: SeekAndFind

Vegas could start a numbers game to see who can guess Camping’s next date, the one after October 21.

I’m interested in hearing from Camping’s faithful proselytes who couldn’t bring themselves to face the possibility their prophet was wrong.


10 posted on 05/24/2011 9:08:14 PM PDT by pallis
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To: SeekAndFind
Or maybe with all that money he filched he could just by himself a few acres in Guyana.


11 posted on 05/24/2011 9:12:14 PM PDT by Bullish (the golfer gets all the credit while the jet fighter pilot gets all the blame.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Here the challenge, can you love your enemy? That’s what we are supposed to do. I think we are supposed to pray for Camping.


12 posted on 05/24/2011 9:13:52 PM PDT by DManA
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To: SeekAndFind

The man is pure demonic evil. His mission is to discredit Christianity and to ruin lives and families.

So far, he is accomplishing his goals.

Every bit of money given to him should be returned and his false Church should be disassembled.


13 posted on 05/24/2011 9:36:41 PM PDT by 240B (he is doing everything he said he wouldn't and not doing what he said he would)
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To: freedumb2003
The first and foremost demand should be the return of those monies.

I'm sorry but I just can't agree.

(A fool and his money ...)

14 posted on 05/24/2011 9:51:00 PM PDT by freejohn
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To: SeekAndFind

And who said a man couldn’t make a buck in this crippled economy. Good for him. /s


15 posted on 05/24/2011 9:51:10 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: SeekAndFind

When the plain sense of scripture make plain sense, seek no other sense.


16 posted on 05/24/2011 10:07:20 PM PDT by TheDeacon (Thank God for those willing to go into harms way.)
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To: SeekAndFind
I love the way everyone is lashing out at Camping after the fact! Where were you before Saturday??? Hypocrisy at its best!
17 posted on 05/25/2011 3:28:13 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50
Typical Freeper. Don't read the article... zero background or research.

James White has debated and has been calling out this Camping nutball for weeks.

18 posted on 05/25/2011 3:41:01 AM PDT by Minus_The_Bear
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To: 240B; All
The man is pure demonic evil. His mission is to discredit Christianity and to ruin lives and families.

I see more and more posting like this. Can't we try to be a bit more sensible? and also line up with Christian teaching?

After all, there IS Scripture about Who is the Discerner of man's hearts.

Hint: It ain't me, babe (Bob Dylan in 70!)

19 posted on 05/25/2011 3:59:48 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory; and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: kosta50

oops.

The OP is a well written rebuke - as far as one sola can try to rope in another sola.


20 posted on 05/25/2011 4:02:32 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory; and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: DManA
Well, there's only two possibilities as I see it. The best one is that Mr Camping is a con-artist, in which case he needs to be exposed and punished as well as being prayed for.

Or, rather more worryingly, he really does believe what he preaches, in which case he really needs prayer.

21 posted on 05/25/2011 4:23:51 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: kosta50

That is unfair. Mr Camping and his projections have been criticised on these boards on numerous occasions before May 21st. The problem is that it is very difficult to counter faith, even (or more especially) misplaced faith through rational argument. It is just easier now.


22 posted on 05/25/2011 4:39:25 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: 240B

“Thank you for calling and sharing.”


23 posted on 05/25/2011 4:42:58 AM PDT by freefdny
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To: SeekAndFind

One liar rebuking another.


24 posted on 05/25/2011 4:47:02 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: Minus_The_Bear
James White has debated and has been calling out this Camping nutball for weeks

My comment was directed everyone.

25 posted on 05/25/2011 6:10:48 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50

directed to everyone


26 posted on 05/25/2011 6:11:11 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: Vanders9
The problem is that it is very difficult to counter faith, even (or more especially) misplaced faith through rational argument

So, in other words, no one know for sure until it happens?

27 posted on 05/25/2011 6:15:02 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: fortheDeclaration

RE: One liar rebuking another.

Interesting, could you elaborate please?


28 posted on 05/25/2011 6:20:48 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind

“wherein you have not only removed repentance and faith under the guise of “works” “ — when did he do that?


29 posted on 05/25/2011 7:12:38 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: kosta50
I was referring to attempts to convince the disciples of Mr Camping. I was and am quite sure in my own mind that he was and is wrong.

The answer to the issue you imply with your comment "so, in other words, no one knows for sure until it happens" is that those of us who believe Mr Camping is wrong are doing so on the basis that we acknowledge that we do not know when Jesus will return. It is perfectly possible it could have been on May 21st 2011, in which case we would all have looked ridiculous! It might very well be tomorrow. It might be one hundred years from now. Mr Camping is not wrong to assert Jesus is returning - all Christians believe that - his error is in stating specifically when. He has no logical, biblical, rational or even inspirational basis for setting a date of May 21st, or any other for that matter. By doing this he not only brings the faith into disrepute, he also wastes huge amounts of people's time, energy and money that could be better spent elsewhere.

30 posted on 05/25/2011 8:48:08 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: Vanders9
Mr Camping is not wrong to assert Jesus is returning - all Christians believe that - his error is in stating specifically when.

Okay, so how are you certain that Jesus will return? How is that different from Campings certainty that he will return on a given date except that his can be tested and yours can't? So, your certainty is really kept alive by uncertainty, isn't it?

31 posted on 05/25/2011 9:07:35 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: SeekAndFind
James White needs to write some more letters to a bunch of other nut-case grifters, too.
32 posted on 05/25/2011 11:25:37 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ("I've studied prophecy 30 years" usually means "I have everything Hal Lindsay ever 'wrote'." ~ LNF)
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To: kosta50
Okay, so how are you certain that Jesus will return?

I am certain that Jesus will return (or more specifically that God will intervene in Human affairs in a particularly climactic way) because He has revealed as such in His word, the Holy Bible. I know that can sound like a kind of a cop-out to some folk, particularly as Mr Camping is also claiming divine revelations for his predictions, but it is true nonetheless. The simple fact is that Mr Camping's interpretation of the Bible is flawed (and yes, I know he probably claims the same about mine).

How is that different from Campings certainty that he will return on a given date except that his can be tested and yours can't?

People make all kinds of claims for divine inspiration, and this can be very challenging because, of course, it is an appeal to a higher authority than any Human institution, and therefore if you object you can be made to seem to be going against Divine will. This is a problem that is covered in the Bible with "Beware...by their fruits you shall know them", which is a poetic way of saying that the results of someone's actions give a good indication of how much they are in accord with divine will. I'm not talking here just about Mr Camping's chosen date being obviously wrong, but on the effects of his teaching on the misguided souls who follow him. Are they, as a result of his thinking, happier, holier more wholesome Human beings? OR are they poorer, because they did not expect to need material possessions and have disposed of them? Are they bitter because of that? Have they been so focused on readying themselves on the future that they have forgotten to live in the present?

The differences between Mr Camping and an orthodox Christian viewpoint may seem small but the consequences of those differences are enormous. Because I do not know the day and the hour I have to live each day as if it might very well be my last (and logically it might be - even an atheist would acknowledge that is true). I have to take every opportunity to better myself, to progress, to say a kind word to someone else, to encourage them, maybe even correct them, because I know I might not get another chance. And yes I know I will fail sometimes. Maybe most times - but Mr Camping's brand of certainty makes all that kind of activity superfluous. For example. Why should his followers get involved in the 2012 election? They don't believe 2012 will happen! All that Human creativity, all that promise, all that desire to see a better future - wasted! "Knowing" the future effectively means not caring about the future. His kind of certainty effectively says "stuff the rest of you".

So, your certainty is really kept alive by uncertainty, isn't it?

My certainty is kept alive by my faith. There wouldn't be much value in my faith if I never doubted, so I suppose in that sense you could say it is kept alive by uncertainty - but it's a very cynical interpretation. I prefer to think of it as "keeping an open mind and allowing my ideas and opinions to progress in the light of new evidence and understanding".

33 posted on 05/26/2011 4:45:12 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: Vanders9
I am certain that Jesus will return (or more specifically that God will intervene in Human affairs in a particularly climactic way) because He has revealed as such in His word, the Holy Bible.

Okay, and why are you certain the Bible tells you the truth?

I know that can sound like a kind of a cop-out to some folk, particularly as Mr Camping is also claiming divine revelations for his predictions, but it is true nonetheless

Because you says so?

The simple fact is that Mr Camping's interpretation of the Bible is flawed (and yes, I know he probably claims the same about mine).

Well, then how do I know who's right?

People make all kinds of claims for divine inspiration

No kiddn'...

"Beware...by their fruits you shall know them", which is a poetic way of saying that the results of someone's actions give a good indication of how much they are in accord with divine will.

So, you know all that's true because it's in the Bible and the Bible is true because you know it is? Sounds a little circular.

I'm not talking here just about Mr Camping's chosen date being obviously wrong, but on the effects of his teaching on the misguided souls who follow him.

Okay, he could be wrong on one date, but what makes you think he is wrong on everything else?

Because I do not know the day and the hour I have to live each day as if it might very well be my last (and logically it might be - even an atheist would acknowledge that is true)

But that's just reality. You don;t know that because the Bible says so.

I have to take every opportunity to better myself, to progress, to say a kind word to someone else, to encourage them, maybe even correct them, because I know I might not get another chance.

Do you have to meet a quota? Is there a scorecard or a critical score that you have to reach for your "salvation"? Doesn't that mean that salvation is your doing?

And yes I know I will fail sometimes. Maybe most times - but Mr Camping's brand of certainty makes all that kind of activity superfluous. For example. Why should his followers get involved in the 2012 election? They don't believe 2012 will happen!

And what if they are right? Normally only 1/3 of all Americans vote. Does that mean we don't get a government? Do you think you not voting will have an impact on when the world shall end?

My certainty is kept alive by my faith. There wouldn't be much value in my faith if I never doubted

Why? You think gravity wold work better if we doubted it every now and then?

I suppose in that sense you could say it is kept alive by uncertainty - but it's a very cynical interpretation.

Oh I don't think it;s cynical at all!

I prefer to think of it as "keeping an open mind and allowing my ideas and opinions to progress in the light of new evidence and understanding"

But if you are certain why do you need new ideas?

34 posted on 05/26/2011 8:40:46 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: SeekAndFind
James White supports Lordship Salvation,is a TULIP Calvinist, and anti-KJB.

He is a heretic and a liar.

No different then Camping.

35 posted on 05/26/2011 11:57:11 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: fortheDeclaration

He is completely different from Camping. I’m not totally convinced by TULIP calvinism, but James White is not anti the KJB. He is anti the KJB-only.


36 posted on 05/27/2011 12:29:36 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: fortheDeclaration
James White supports Lordship Salvation,is a TULIP Calvinist, and anti-KJB. He is a heretic and a liar. No different then Camping.

I didn't know Camping was a Calvinist???

37 posted on 05/27/2011 12:30:58 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: SeekAndFind

He’s using numerology.

That’s not biblical.

Excellent post. Thank you!


38 posted on 05/27/2011 12:36:01 AM PDT by dixiechick2000 (Age, skill, wisdom, and a little treachery always overcome youth and arrogance!)
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To: kosta50
Okay, and why are you certain the Bible tells you the truth?

Why do you think that God would lie?

Because you says so?

Perhaps I should have been more precise and said "but I believe it to be so". My current understanding of scripture leads me to believe that Mr Camping is wrong.

Well, then how do I know who's right?

Well, I'm sorry but I'm afraid you're going to have to decide that for yourself! But a good start would be to consider the arguments put forward by both and see. Mr Camping has put forward what he believes to be true, and I have done the same.

So, you know all that's true because it's in the Bible and the Bible is true because you know it is? Sounds a little circular.

Well actually I was more pointing out that "a man reaps what he sows", which is another very poetic way of saying that there are consequences to your actions. If Mr Camping claims that what he is doing is in accordance with God's word, then the consequences of them should be very beneficial.

? Okay, he could be wrong on one date, but what makes you think he is wrong on everything else?

I never said that I thought he was wrong on everything else. I'm sure he's very right on many things. But I think he's wrong to set dates for the second coming.

But that's just reality. You don;t know that because the Bible says so.

I never said that I did know that because the Bible says so. Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean that I don't think, or reason, or learn about the world from other sources.

Do you have to meet a quota? Is there a scorecard or a critical score that you have to reach for your "salvation"? Doesn't that mean that salvation is your doing?

You're being facetious. I never said any of those things. I don't HAVE to do any of them, at least not to secure my salvation. The point is that people who think the world is coming to an end at such and such a date don't really care much about the present.

And what if they are right? Normally only 1/3 of all Americans vote. Does that mean we don't get a government? Do you think you not voting will have an impact on when the world shall end?

Well obviously if they are right its not going to make any difference whether any of us vote! The point is that they stop trying.

Why? You think gravity wold work better if we doubted it every now and then?

Faith is being certain about that which you cannot really know. I don't know exactly how gravity works. Neither do the finest minds on the planet. I trust that it does, based on my experience that it always has before! In the same way, I trust that when I flip a light switch the light comes on. I've studied electical engineering, and I know about ohms and volts and impedence, but I don't really know how electricity works. Nobody does. We all of us work on "faith" all the time.

But if you are certain why do you need new ideas?

Because I am a finite Human Being and my understanding is imperfect. New information alters you, if you let it. I personally have learnt huge amounts from conversations on these very boards. Even if they are opinions I disagree with, the very fact of refuting them forces me to think through exactly what I do believe, and to my shame I sometimes a lot of it I really haven't thought through as well as I might. Sometimes I have had to change my mind, based on the arguments others have cogently put to me. This is nothing to be ashamed of. It is how the democratic process works after all! There's nothing wrong with being ignorant, only in remaining so.

39 posted on 05/27/2011 12:59:42 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: Cronos

Yes, he is.


40 posted on 05/27/2011 3:40:19 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: fortheDeclaration

RE: James White supports Lordship Salvation,is a TULIP Calvinist, and anti-KJB.
He is a heretic and a liar.


Calivinist and those who don’t believe that the KJB is equivalent to the original scriptures God handed down are now heretics?


41 posted on 05/27/2011 4:25:19 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: fortheDeclaration; Cronos

Well, at least he used to be...


42 posted on 05/27/2011 5:19:24 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: Vanders9
Why do you think that God would lie?

I never said I thought God would lie.

Perhaps I should have been more precise and said "but I believe it to be so". My current understanding of scripture leads me to believe that Mr Camping is wrong.

That's your faith and I respect that. However, if you want me to believe you you must show me that other Christians are wrong and you are right. I deal with a lot of Christians and they all have different versions of 'official truth'.

I never said that I thought he was wrong on everything else. I'm sure he's very right on many things

It's possible that I misunderstood you. If you read what you wrote it came across that Camping was just plain wrong, period.

I never said that I did know that because the Bible says so. Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean that I don't think, or reason, or learn about the world from other sources

But when I ask Christians how do they know something they point to the Bible. And when I ask how do they know the Bible is telling them the truth, they ask me why do I think God would lie?! Other people believe in other holy books. How do I know whose holy book is really God's word that must be accepted as true? Who should I believe and why?

You're being facetious

Why am I being facetious? You said you had to do good things, etc. My question was reasonable: how many good things do you have to do? And if you don;t have to do them, why did you say you had to do them? Or at least that's what I thought you said (I can't go back now and check).

Faith is being certain about that which you cannot really know.

That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I don't know exactly how gravity works. Neither do the finest minds on the planet. I trust that it does, based on my experience that it always has before!

Gravity you can put to a test. God is a different story.

Because I am a finite Human Being and my understanding is imperfect

But then how can you be certain in your faith (which is not knowledge)? It seems that you are now saying you are certain in your ignorance but uncertain in your knowledge? Is that what you are saying?

43 posted on 05/27/2011 7:55:44 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: Vanders9
James White is anti-KJB.

He rejects it as the final authority, he believes his own opinion is the final authority.

44 posted on 05/27/2011 9:46:22 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: SeekAndFind
Calvinism is a heresy.

Those who reject the KJB as the final authority have accepted the false bibles based on the corrupt gnostic texts of Westcott and Hort, Nestle/Alland and the UBS.

45 posted on 05/27/2011 9:50:51 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: fortheDeclaration

Question. Do you believe that the KJB is more of an authority than the original Greek and Hebrew texts on which it is based? In other words, do you believe God specifically inspired the translators of the KJB with an extra revelation?


46 posted on 05/28/2011 3:53:31 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: kosta50
I wrote an extremely detailed reply to you but unfortunately Free Republic crashed just at the very instant I was pressing the publish button, so I lost the lot.

I will reply back when I have a couple of spare hours to retype it.

47 posted on 05/28/2011 5:43:47 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: fortheDeclaration

RE: Calvinism is a heresy.
Those who reject the KJB as the final authority have accepted the false bibles based on the corrupt gnostic texts of Westcott and Hort, Nestle/Alland and the UBS.

_______________________________________________________________________

And which church teaches that? You are now condemning most of the English speaking churches of the western world as heretics (including the Roman Catholic Church which does not use the KJV).


48 posted on 05/28/2011 6:48:32 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Vanders9
I am sorry. That can be very frustrating. Here is my advice: write your replies in your HTML editor or a word processor and then dump it into the FR editor. it's crash-proof. :)
49 posted on 05/28/2011 8:50:18 AM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50
I never said I thought God would lie...But when I ask Christians how do they know something they point to the Bible. And when I ask how do they know the Bible is telling them the truth, they ask me why do I think God would lie?! Other people believe in other holy books. How do I know whose holy book is really God's word that must be accepted as true? Who should I believe and why?

I’m sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were questioning what was in the Bible rather than its very standing as the revealed word of God.

Obviously I cannot prove to you that the Bible is the real deal. If that were possible, smarter folk than me would have done it already and there would be no need for discussions like this! I can offer you evidence, based on literary research and the experiences of many millions of people all around the world over many centuries, but they would not be a scientific type proof. In the end, all I can say is that my study of it leads me to believe it to be a sound basis for my life, one that in turn challenges, comforts, educates and affirms. I would commend it to you!

As an aside, there really aren’t all that many holy books. The Jews accept the Bible as being the true word of God, but only the first three-quarters that we call the old testament. Muslims accept the Bible as being true, they think of the Koran as a further revelation, as do the Mormons with the book of Mormon. Pagans, Buddhists and Humanists don’t have a holy book and Confucianism is a philosophical concept, not a religion.

As for “who should I believe and why?” I’m sorry, but I’m afraid you are really going to have to work that one out for yourself. I can answer your questions (to the best of my ability), and offer you advice – even instruction, but in the end it is your responsibility. God has made you the custodian of your life.

That's your faith and I respect that. However, if you want me to believe you you must show me that other Christians are wrong and you are right.>/i>

I kind of thought I had already done that, both from a scriptural and a logical point of view. The Bible does say that God will call an end to all things, but it also says, on several occasions, that the time and date will not be revealed to us. Therefore Mr Camping is claiming he knows when the second coming will be, based on research on the very book that says that such information will not be revealed to him! It must take a particularly convoluted thought process to get round that.

And logically, people who believe that the cares of this world will end on a set date will have no interest in trying to ease those cares, or help to resolve those issues here and now. How can that be a good thing?

I deal with a lot of Christians and they all have different versions of 'official truth'.

I know that it can be very confusing and I don’t deny that Christians do sometimes disagree (and worse) with each other, in ways that are not very honouring to their calling. In partial (and only partial) mitigation I would say that these matters are of the utmost importance to them, and people can get very worked up about things that are close to their hearts.

But such disagreements are found in other fields of life as well. If you were to start a discussion on these boards on “what should be the GOP ticket for 2012?” you would get a dozen different answers, probably – shall we say ‘forcefully’ asserted – and yet everyone on these boards would call themselves a “conservative”. Like every example of every kind of person you meet, Christians are individuals, not robots. They come from different backgrounds, and different cultures. They have had different influences upon them, and of course, they are at different stages of development. The great thing is that God treats us as individuals. One of the most common things you hear from Christians when quoting the bible is that "all scripture is god-breathed, and suitable for teaching, disciplining and so on" And that is true, but that doesn't mean that all of scripture is equally relevant to all of us all the time. So, one Christian you know might be really into the concept of faith at the time you talk to them, while Christian two is wrestling with applied eschatology or whatever. In the end, the differences may stand out, but there are far more similarities.

It's possible that I misunderstood you. If you read what you wrote it came across that Camping was just plain wrong, period.

In all humility I suspect you might be reading more into my statements than was there, probably based on reactions you have had from other people. I’ve never met Mr Camping or heard him speak. I know very little of his background and teaching and therefore I would not presume to judge him. All I know is that stating the day and time of the second coming has no logical or scriptural basis.

Why am I being facetious? You said you had to do good things, etc. My question was reasonable: how many good things do you have to do? And if you don;t have to do them, why did you say you had to do them? Or at least that's what I thought you said (I can't go back now and check).

Because I was saying those things as an illustration of why it is wrong to live in the future, not as a statement of what I personally believe or “have” to do. I don’t HAVE to do any of those things, at least not to secure my salvation. The point is that every encounter anyone has is an opportunity, to help, to encourage, to affirm or whatever. (It’s also a danger, because you might hurt, or hate, or upset). But if you believe that all things will end tomorrow, what do you care? To you it isn’t going to make any difference.

Faith is being certain about that which you cannot really know. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Frankly, that doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. You strike me as being “a child of the enlightenment”! Unfortunately belief in God and therefore in what God says is not something that you can logically work out or prove. (A lot of atheists get very smug about that, overlooking the fact that you can’t logically work out unbelief either).

Let me try and illustrate what i mean. I believe there is a country called Australia, even though I have never been there or seen it. I’ve met people who say they have. I have met people who claim to be Australians. I’ve looked in atlases and encyclopaedias and seen pictures of it. But if you think about it, in all those instances I am ultimately taking people’s word for the very existence of the place. It could all be some grand conspiracy to fool me.

In the same way, I believe there is life after death, even though I cannot possibly be sure about that (not having ever died). I’ve read up on theories about life after death by eminent scholars and philosophers. I have assurances from the Bible. I have talked to people right on the very verge of death. But I do not actually know. Once again, it could all be some grand conspiracy to fool me.

In both of those instances here is a step of faith involved – a combination of logic, reason, intuition and gut instinct leads me to believe that, on balance, there is an afterlife (and – depressingly - Australia really does exist). We all of us make these kinds of calls all the time. People who don’t take steps of faith like that end up becoming 9-11 truthers or whatever. This is why I said that belief can be very dangerous, so you had better make sure you have the right beliefs.

Gravity you can put to a test. God is a different story.

Why so? Have you ever considered “testing” God out?

But then how can you be certain in your faith (which is not knowledge)? It seems that you are now saying you are certain in your ignorance but uncertain in your knowledge? Is that what you are saying?

Well, I certainly do not claim to know everything - who does? – but that is not really germane to the argument. What I am trying to say is that I have come to faith not just because of some logical or rational process of reasoning. It is also a spiritual and emotional response to a divine calling. This is nothing to be ashamed of. Reason isn’t the be all and end all of everything. After all, we are creatures of passion and emotion as well as logic and reason. Therefore, in giving us faith, God has to make allowances for that.

50 posted on 05/30/2011 6:05:37 AM PDT by Vanders9
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