Posted on 05/24/2011 8:44:52 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
On Open Letter to Harold Camping of Family Radio
Dear Mr. Camping:
In July of 2009 you and I engaged in a debate on the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program concerning your teaching that the church age had ended and that Christ would return on May 21, 2011. I trust you recall our exchange. I am also aware that you have at least seen my book, Dangerous Airwaves: Harold Camping Refuted and Christ's Church Defended. I have been seeking to warn people about your teachings, sir, for about a decade. I know others have been warning the church about you longer than I.
Mr. Camping I am writing to seek your repentance and the most God-glorifying outcome of the debacle of your failed May 21, 2011 prophecy/teaching. I am not writing to engage in debate with you. The time for debate ended on May 22, 2011. It is now time to urge you to repent and seek to undo the massive damage you have done, first and foremost, to the cause of Christ.
Let me first list the items you need to repent of, openly and publicly (for you are a public person, and your teachings were disseminated all around the world).
You need to repent of your abuse of the Bible, based upon claims of latter-day opening of understandings no one else has, allegedly, ever had, based upon the horrific misreading of the books of Revelation and Daniel. The Bible is not a code book, Mr. Camping, and it never has been. You have attacked the grammatical/historical means of honoring the intention and meaning of the original authors, and in so doing, have turned the Bible into your own private playground where you, and you alone, set the rules. You decided that certain numbers have certain meanings, and you alone decided which numbers could be added to others. You told your audiences that you were simply teaching the Bible, when you were doing nothing of the sort. Unless you honor the intention of the original authors, which means doing difficult exegetical work, studying languages and backgrounds, you have no business saying you are representing the Bible. This has been your primary error for decades on end, and I know I am not the first minister of the gospel to seek to correct you about this. Your utterly fallacious means of interpretation of the Bible has led to the mockery of the Christian faith all around the world, and you alone must repent for your willful rejection of the correction offered by many to you over the years.
You need to repent of your repeated date-setting, and your twisting of those Scriptures that plainly state that we do not now know, and will never know, the date of the coming of Christ, until it happens. You have been proven wrong multiple times now, and it is time for you to admit that you have been in error every single time you have argued that we can, in fact, know.
You must repent of your many unbiblical teachings, teachings which have grown out of your rebellion against Christ's Church. First and foremost, you must repent of your attack upon the church. You must return to the church (I would suggest the local Christian Reformed Church from which you made your original defection) in repentance and seek to place yourself under their care, repenting for your schism. You must openly and publicly abjure your teaching that Satan rules in the churches, and that all ministers of the gospel since 1988 are, in fact, servants of Satan. You must call all listeners of Family Radio to return to their churches with repentant hearts. You must instruct them to seek to learn to read the Bible aright, to seek to interpret the Bible in light of its original meanings and intention, not as a secret, gnostic code-book.
You must likewise abjure and repent of the other false teachings you have been promulgating, including, but not limited to, such teachings as Jesus having died twice, your new annihilationism teaching, etc. You once held to mainly orthodox views, but, when you refused godly counsel and went out on your own, you planted the seeds of your own destruction, which have now sprouted, over night it seems, into the crop of condemnation you now rightly face.
You must likewise repent of the perversion of the gospel you have been teaching, wherein you have not only removed repentance and faith under the guise of "works" (neither are works, both are the gifts of God to His elect by His Spirit, but remain part and parcel of the gospel call), but you clearly, in these last days, added belief in your own May 21, 2011 teaching to the gospel itself, saying that those who did not believe this teaching would experience eternal torment. You have been preaching a false gospel, Mr. Camping, and you must repent for this.
The time for haggling and debating has passed, Mr. Camping. Your teaching has been disproven, and your only hope is to be found in complete repentance from your false teachings. I fear if you seek to rescue your reputation, you will end your life under the wrath of God. Your unwillingness to listen to counsel has already caused great damage to the cause of Christ. You have one final chance for redemption, sir. Do not remain stiff-necked. Repent and turn from your ways.
James White Alpha and Omega Ministries
RE: James White supports Lordship Salvation,is a TULIP Calvinist, and anti-KJB.
He is a heretic and a liar.
Calivinist and those who don’t believe that the KJB is equivalent to the original scriptures God handed down are now heretics?
Well, at least he used to be...
I never said I thought God would lie.
Perhaps I should have been more precise and said "but I believe it to be so". My current understanding of scripture leads me to believe that Mr Camping is wrong.
That's your faith and I respect that. However, if you want me to believe you you must show me that other Christians are wrong and you are right. I deal with a lot of Christians and they all have different versions of 'official truth'.
I never said that I thought he was wrong on everything else. I'm sure he's very right on many things
It's possible that I misunderstood you. If you read what you wrote it came across that Camping was just plain wrong, period.
I never said that I did know that because the Bible says so. Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean that I don't think, or reason, or learn about the world from other sources
But when I ask Christians how do they know something they point to the Bible. And when I ask how do they know the Bible is telling them the truth, they ask me why do I think God would lie?! Other people believe in other holy books. How do I know whose holy book is really God's word that must be accepted as true? Who should I believe and why?
You're being facetious
Why am I being facetious? You said you had to do good things, etc. My question was reasonable: how many good things do you have to do? And if you don;t have to do them, why did you say you had to do them? Or at least that's what I thought you said (I can't go back now and check).
Faith is being certain about that which you cannot really know.
That makes no sense to me whatsoever.
I don't know exactly how gravity works. Neither do the finest minds on the planet. I trust that it does, based on my experience that it always has before!
Gravity you can put to a test. God is a different story.
Because I am a finite Human Being and my understanding is imperfect
But then how can you be certain in your faith (which is not knowledge)? It seems that you are now saying you are certain in your ignorance but uncertain in your knowledge? Is that what you are saying?
He rejects it as the final authority, he believes his own opinion is the final authority.
Those who reject the KJB as the final authority have accepted the false bibles based on the corrupt gnostic texts of Westcott and Hort, Nestle/Alland and the UBS.
Question. Do you believe that the KJB is more of an authority than the original Greek and Hebrew texts on which it is based? In other words, do you believe God specifically inspired the translators of the KJB with an extra revelation?
I will reply back when I have a couple of spare hours to retype it.
RE: Calvinism is a heresy.
Those who reject the KJB as the final authority have accepted the false bibles based on the corrupt gnostic texts of Westcott and Hort, Nestle/Alland and the UBS.
_______________________________________________________________________
And which church teaches that? You are now condemning most of the English speaking churches of the western world as heretics (including the Roman Catholic Church which does not use the KJV).
I’m sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were questioning what was in the Bible rather than its very standing as the revealed word of God.
Obviously I cannot prove to you that the Bible is the real deal. If that were possible, smarter folk than me would have done it already and there would be no need for discussions like this! I can offer you evidence, based on literary research and the experiences of many millions of people all around the world over many centuries, but they would not be a scientific type proof. In the end, all I can say is that my study of it leads me to believe it to be a sound basis for my life, one that in turn challenges, comforts, educates and affirms. I would commend it to you!
As an aside, there really aren’t all that many holy books. The Jews accept the Bible as being the true word of God, but only the first three-quarters that we call the old testament. Muslims accept the Bible as being true, they think of the Koran as a further revelation, as do the Mormons with the book of Mormon. Pagans, Buddhists and Humanists don’t have a holy book and Confucianism is a philosophical concept, not a religion.
As for “who should I believe and why?” I’m sorry, but I’m afraid you are really going to have to work that one out for yourself. I can answer your questions (to the best of my ability), and offer you advice – even instruction, but in the end it is your responsibility. God has made you the custodian of your life.
That's your faith and I respect that. However, if you want me to believe you you must show me that other Christians are wrong and you are right.>/i>
I kind of thought I had already done that, both from a scriptural and a logical point of view. The Bible does say that God will call an end to all things, but it also says, on several occasions, that the time and date will not be revealed to us. Therefore Mr Camping is claiming he knows when the second coming will be, based on research on the very book that says that such information will not be revealed to him! It must take a particularly convoluted thought process to get round that.
And logically, people who believe that the cares of this world will end on a set date will have no interest in trying to ease those cares, or help to resolve those issues here and now. How can that be a good thing?
I deal with a lot of Christians and they all have different versions of 'official truth'.
I know that it can be very confusing and I don’t deny that Christians do sometimes disagree (and worse) with each other, in ways that are not very honouring to their calling. In partial (and only partial) mitigation I would say that these matters are of the utmost importance to them, and people can get very worked up about things that are close to their hearts.
But such disagreements are found in other fields of life as well. If you were to start a discussion on these boards on “what should be the GOP ticket for 2012?” you would get a dozen different answers, probably – shall we say ‘forcefully’ asserted – and yet everyone on these boards would call themselves a “conservative”. Like every example of every kind of person you meet, Christians are individuals, not robots. They come from different backgrounds, and different cultures. They have had different influences upon them, and of course, they are at different stages of development. The great thing is that God treats us as individuals. One of the most common things you hear from Christians when quoting the bible is that "all scripture is god-breathed, and suitable for teaching, disciplining and so on" And that is true, but that doesn't mean that all of scripture is equally relevant to all of us all the time. So, one Christian you know might be really into the concept of faith at the time you talk to them, while Christian two is wrestling with applied eschatology or whatever. In the end, the differences may stand out, but there are far more similarities.
It's possible that I misunderstood you. If you read what you wrote it came across that Camping was just plain wrong, period.
In all humility I suspect you might be reading more into my statements than was there, probably based on reactions you have had from other people. I’ve never met Mr Camping or heard him speak. I know very little of his background and teaching and therefore I would not presume to judge him. All I know is that stating the day and time of the second coming has no logical or scriptural basis.
Why am I being facetious? You said you had to do good things, etc. My question was reasonable: how many good things do you have to do? And if you don;t have to do them, why did you say you had to do them? Or at least that's what I thought you said (I can't go back now and check).
Because I was saying those things as an illustration of why it is wrong to live in the future, not as a statement of what I personally believe or “have” to do. I don’t HAVE to do any of those things, at least not to secure my salvation. The point is that every encounter anyone has is an opportunity, to help, to encourage, to affirm or whatever. (It’s also a danger, because you might hurt, or hate, or upset). But if you believe that all things will end tomorrow, what do you care? To you it isn’t going to make any difference.
Faith is being certain about that which you cannot really know. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Frankly, that doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. You strike me as being “a child of the enlightenment”! Unfortunately belief in God and therefore in what God says is not something that you can logically work out or prove. (A lot of atheists get very smug about that, overlooking the fact that you can’t logically work out unbelief either).
Let me try and illustrate what i mean. I believe there is a country called Australia, even though I have never been there or seen it. I’ve met people who say they have. I have met people who claim to be Australians. I’ve looked in atlases and encyclopaedias and seen pictures of it. But if you think about it, in all those instances I am ultimately taking people’s word for the very existence of the place. It could all be some grand conspiracy to fool me.
In the same way, I believe there is life after death, even though I cannot possibly be sure about that (not having ever died). I’ve read up on theories about life after death by eminent scholars and philosophers. I have assurances from the Bible. I have talked to people right on the very verge of death. But I do not actually know. Once again, it could all be some grand conspiracy to fool me.
In both of those instances here is a step of faith involved – a combination of logic, reason, intuition and gut instinct leads me to believe that, on balance, there is an afterlife (and – depressingly - Australia really does exist). We all of us make these kinds of calls all the time. People who don’t take steps of faith like that end up becoming 9-11 truthers or whatever. This is why I said that belief can be very dangerous, so you had better make sure you have the right beliefs.
Gravity you can put to a test. God is a different story.
Why so? Have you ever considered “testing” God out?
But then how can you be certain in your faith (which is not knowledge)? It seems that you are now saying you are certain in your ignorance but uncertain in your knowledge? Is that what you are saying?
Well, I certainly do not claim to know everything - who does? – but that is not really germane to the argument. What I am trying to say is that I have come to faith not just because of some logical or rational process of reasoning. It is also a spiritual and emotional response to a divine calling. This is nothing to be ashamed of. Reason isn’t the be all and end all of everything. After all, we are creatures of passion and emotion as well as logic and reason. Therefore, in giving us faith, God has to make allowances for that.
If the authorship is in quesiton, then what's in it is in question as well.
Obviously I cannot prove to you that the Bible is the real deal.
Hebrews 8:10-11 say there's no need for it. Yet, obviously there is...so somethings not right.
I can offer you evidence, based on literary research and the experiences of many millions of people all around the world over many centuries, but they would not be a scientific type proof
The Muslims, Jews and Hindus can do the same thing. The Hindu scriptures are older than the Jewish ones. And billions of people believe them, and have for milennia.
I have nothing against God. If he does intercede in people's lives then I have a lot to be thankful for. But I don;t know if he does does or not, if he exists or not.
But I do know that I have a buffet of people offering me their version of the Truth. To me they are all human stories full of holes, lacing in proof, or evidence, based on preconceived assumptions and influenced by cultures.
In other words they are human creations, and will not submit my beliefs to a human. I don;t believe God needs "prophets" and 'preachers" to let people know who he is, if he is and what he is.
In the end, all I can say is that my study of it leads me to believe it to be a sound basis for my life, one that in turn challenges, comforts, educates and affirms. I would commend it to you!
I appreciate that and I am glad that it works for you. My study leads me away from that belief. It's not necessarily what I set out to do when I started asking questions, but that's where I arrived. The real world is not how it;s described in the Bible. Period.
They may worship the one and only God if there is such as God, but their Pagans, Buddhists and Humanists don’t have a holy book and Confucianism is a philosophical concept, not a religion.
The Hindu scriptures (the Vedas, visions or knowings) are the oldest scriptures on earth, and they reveal one God who appears to men in many forms (modalism). The Mormons have their own scriptures, and so did many of the various Christian offshoots, such as the Gnostics, etc.
The Christians themselves have a variety of "canons", mutually exclusive, ever since Christians scriptures began to appear.
God has made you the custodian of your life.
How do you know that?
The Bible says you should not love the world.
I know that it can be very confusing and I don’t deny that Christians do sometimes disagree (and worse) with each other, in ways that are not very honouring to their calling
V, I came to this forum 11 years ago as a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian and I became an agnostic on this forum after seeing the hate, discontent and thousands of "official truths" from Christians practicing anything but love and charity. The vile hateful post directed form one group of Christians to another is a plenty on any given day.
And they have no problems then praying to their God who says "love your neighbor as yourself." Hypoctites.
But such disagreements are found in other fields of life as well.
It doesn't matter; it's apples and oranges. Christians are under commandment to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, and love their neighbor as themselves. But, hey, Paul comes along and says all you need is faith, faith makes you "just' in God;s eyes, and nothing you do will change that. So, go for it, lambaste Armenians if you are a Calvinist, call those who doubt names, spout anti-Catholic venom, call anyone who doesn't belong to your church a "heretic", and so on and so on. Disingenuous.
You can' preach love and practice hate and expect others to see the good in you.
I don't care, either God comes first or doesn't. Otherwise it is simply a label. Either they submit, and transcend, their human and cultural and other differences and are of one mind, as they are commanded, or they are hypocrites, and liars. If you believe you overcome.
So, one Christian you know might be really into the concept of faith at the time you talk to them, while Christian two is wrestling with applied eschatology or whatever. In the end, the differences may stand out, but there are far more similarities.
It's a feel-good club, very often very self-righteous, and full of pride and intolerance. Christians are not taught to be individuals but to be one in mind.
Frankly, that doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. You strike me as being “a child of the enlightenment”! Unfortunately belief in God and therefore in what God says is not something that you can logically work out or prove.
Why submit to and place your life in charge of illogical beliefs? Even worse, why would God need human "prophets" instead of talk to individuals directly? As is, you have to believe some human "prophet" first.
Let me try and illustrate what i mean. I believe there is a country called Australia...But if you think about it, in all those instances I am ultimately taking people’s word for the very existence of the place.
First, whether you beieve Australia exists or not matters not as regards "afterlife" or "salvation," in other words it's not existentially essential for you or your loved ones.
But, in extremis, Australia is provable. You don;t have to take anyone's word for it. You can actually take the trip yourself. And there are no tens of thousands of different opinions where Australia is, what it is, etc. Apples and oranges.
By the way, the Bible says oyu should not test or tempt your God but only your faith.
This is why I said that belief can be very dangerous, so you had better make sure you have the right beliefs.
And how do you determine they are "right" given that they cannot be subjected to reason. How do you determine that the unreasonable is "right"? Gut feeling? Come on.
Gravity you can put to a test. God is a different story. Why so? Have you ever considered “testing” God out?
I don't even know what God is, how can I put it to test? I know, you will tell me God is a who. Well, before he is a who he is also a what. If you can't define the essence you can't recognize the form. So, what is divine? How do you recognize divine?
What I am trying to say is that I have come to faith not just because of some logical or rational process of reasoning. It is also a spiritual and emotional response to a divine calling.
And how do know that something irrational is divine? What is spiritual? I can understand that certain beliefs are emotional, i.e. that they provide psychological comfort.
Therefore, in giving us faith, God has to make allowances for that.
I noticed a characteristic in western Christianity of subjecting God to a higher necessity ("God has to.."). From an Eastern Christian point of view it is something very, very alien.
Gal 2:16: “Seeing that a man is not made righteous by the works of the Law but only by faith in Jesus Christ.”
Well, obviously. But that wasn't the thrust of what you were trying to get over.
Hebrews 8:10-11 say there's no need for it. Yet, obviously there is...so somethings not right.
I don't think the passage you quote means that.
The Muslims, Jews and Hindus can do the same thing. The Hindu scriptures are older than the Jewish ones. And billions of people believe them, and have for milennia.
The Muslims and Jews certainly can do that - but that doesnt invalidate my argument. The Hindus don't really have scriptures as we understand the term, but I agree they are very old.
I have nothing against God. If he does intercede in people's lives then I have a lot to be thankful for. But I don;t know if he does does or not, if he exists or not.
Well, start at that point then. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. If He exists, and you are serious in attempting to know Him, then He will answer.
But I do know that I have a buffet of people offering me their version of the Truth. To me they are all human stories full of holes, lacing in proof, or evidence, based on preconceived assumptions and influenced by cultures. In other words they are human creations, and will not submit my beliefs to a human. I don;t believe God needs "prophets" and 'preachers" to let people know who he is, if he is and what he is.
Not neccesarily. Sure there has been a Human cultural influence over these tales, but that doesn't neccesarily mean they are Human creations.
I appreciate that and I am glad that it works for you. My study leads me away from that belief. It's not necessarily what I set out to do when I started asking questions, but that's where I arrived. The real world is not how it;s described in the Bible. Period.
That last is a very definitive statement. I think in the Bible you can find the whole gamut of the Human experience, good and bad.
Well, if not you, who else?
The Bible says you should not love the world.
It does, but I don't understand how that connects to your argument...
V, I came to this forum 11 years ago as a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian and I became an agnostic on this forum after seeing the hate, discontent and thousands of "official truths" from Christians practicing anything but love and charity. The vile hateful post directed form one group of Christians to another is a plenty on any given day. And they have no problems then praying to their God who says "love your neighbor as yourself." Hypoctites.
Surely that kind of means they are bad at being Christians rather than that Christianity is wrong...
Yes Christians have to come together and submit and transcend their differences, but that takes time to do. You would agree that we all have different start points?
It's a feel-good club, very often very self-righteous, and full of pride and intolerance. Christians are not taught to be individuals but to be one in mind.
I don't always feel very good about myself when I practice my faith. Quite the contrary.
Why submit to and place your life in charge of illogical beliefs? Even worse, why would God need human "prophets" instead of talk to individuals directly? As is, you have to believe some human "prophet" first.
I didn't say it was illogical. I said you cannot prove it with logic. I personally do not believe faith and reason are incompatible. God chooses to use prophets (no quotes needed) because He chooses to work through Humans, perhaps because it teaches the people involved something. After all, you learn things better if you do rather than be told.
First, whether you beieve Australia exists or not matters not as regards "afterlife" or "salvation," in other words it's not existentially essential for you or your loved ones.
Chill. It was only an example.
But, in extremis, Australia is provable. You don;t have to take anyone's word for it. You can actually take the trip yourself. And there are no tens of thousands of different opinions where Australia is, what it is, etc. Apples and oranges.
We're all on a trip to the afterlife as well. So that's going to be proveable too, is it not?
By the way, the Bible says oyu should not test or tempt your God but only your faith.
At the moment, He isn't "your" God, not so?
And how do you determine they are "right" given that they cannot be subjected to reason. How do you determine that the unreasonable is "right"? Gut feeling? Come on.
You come on. I never said they were not subject to reason. I think faith and reason are very compatible. I said they were not proveable solely by reason.
I don't even know what God is, how can I put it to test? I know, you will tell me God is a who. Well, before he is a who he is also a what. If you can't define the essence you can't recognize the form. So, what is divine? How do you recognize divine?
I wasn't going to suggest that, as it happens. Start at the point of where you are. If you don't even know if God exists, or even what God is, or what to call divine and what to call worldly, then ask Him to resolve that. If God does not exist, then you will lose nothing. If, as I believe, there is a God that loves you and does not want you to be so confused and angry and hurting, then you have everything to gain. And how do know that something irrational is divine? What is spiritual? I can understand that certain beliefs are emotional, i.e. that they provide psychological comfort.
What I am trying to get over is that belief is a combination of many things - reason, emotion, passion, faith. It calls for a response from your soul, your mind, and your body.
I noticed a characteristic in western Christianity of subjecting God to a higher necessity ("God has to.."). From an Eastern Christian point of view it is something very, very alien.
How we all speak, and do not even realise that we sin! Yes of course you are quite right. God does not "have" to do anything. My statement is based upon my understanding of God's character (which is imperfect). When I say "God has to" I mean the said action is compatible with God's observed actions.
Heb 8:10...I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts...11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me.
Seems pretty clear to me that they won't need anyone to tell them, for they shall know what God wants them to know.
Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. If He exists, and you are serious in attempting to know Him, then He will answer.
The Muslims and Jews certainly can do that - but that doesn't invalidate my argument.
I think it does.
Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. If He exists, and you are serious in attempting to know Him, then He will answer.
Reveal himself to you how? How do you know it's God? 2 Cor 11:14 "...even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."
Not necessarily. Sure there has been a Human cultural influence over these tales, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are Human creations
Whose are they? Klingons'?
Who says it's a "who"?
Surely that kind of means they are bad at being Christians rather than that Christianity is wrong...
Two thousand years is bad track record.
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