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The Catholic Understanding of the Saints: Isn't Christ the 'One Mediator'? (Part 3)
TheSacredPage.com ^ | Sunday, May 29, 2011 | Michael Barber

Posted on 05/30/2011 6:14:21 PM PDT by Salvation

Sunday, May 29, 2011

The Catholic Understanding of the Saints: Isn't Christ the 'One Mediator'? (Part 3)

The next few posts will examine one of the questions asked specifically by Jim. (I’m not answering his questions in the exact order he asked them, but I will get to all of them). Here's the question I want to start considering:
What biblical or theological justification is there for believing that the dead pray for us?
This is a hugely important question. But, actually, in a certain sense, this question really contains a number of other questions rolled up into one:
  1. Isn’t Christ the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tim 2:5)? If so, isn’t affirming the ability of the dead to pray for us a violation of that biblical teaching? In light of that, it would seem that there can be no biblical justification for the Catholic belief that saints in heaven can pray for those on earth.
  2. Are the dead even conscious? Aren't the dead "asleep" until the resurrection?
  3. If the those who have died are conscious, how do we know they are aware of the needs of Christians on earth?
  4. Assuming one could answer the questions above, isn't it just speculation that the saints pray for those on earth? Is there any clear indication in Scripture that those in heaven actually pray for those on earth?
  5. Isn’t it a violation of the biblical prohibition against necromancy to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?
These are all important questions. Let me try to take them one by one.

Today, let’s look at the first, namely, isn’t the practice of asking the saints to pray for us a rejection of the biblical teaching of Christ’s role as the “one mediator”?

The One Mediator

Again, while many Protestants are taught otherwise, the Catholic Church teaches very clearly that Christ is, as St. Paul says, “the one mediator between God and man” (1 Tim 2:5).

I won’t belabor this point with many quotations. Suffice it to say, the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms this in numerous places. For example, no. 771 reads:
“The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, the community of faith, hope, and charity, as a visible organization through which he communicates truth and grace to all men.” (citing another official Catholic document from Vatican II, Lumen gentium, 8 § 1.).
Lest someone insist that this is “new” Catholic teaching, let me assure you that this was also affirmed at the Council of Trent:
“If anyone asserts that this sin of Adam, which in its origin is one, and by propagation, not by imitation, transfused into all, which is in each one as something that is his own, is taken away either by the forces of human nature or by a remedy other than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ . . . let him be anathema.” (Session V, 3).
But isn’t the idea that saints can pray for us on earth a violation of this clear teaching of Scripture? I don’t think so.

The Biblical Basis for Praying for One Another

Scripture tells us that we should pray for one another. In fact, this isn't just a passing suggestion. That the righteous pray for one another is emphasized over and over again.

It may seem silly to make a lot out of this, but we often don't realize how frequently the idea of praying for one another comes up in Scripture.

To illustrate just how frequently the idea comes up I've put together the following catalogue of passages--and this is far from exhaustive:
  • Jesus commands us to “pray for those who abuse you” (Luke 6:28; cf. Matt 5:44).
  • Jesus says that some demons can only be driven out by prayer (Mark 9:23), which most likely involves the idea of praying for the one possessed.
  • The apostles pray for Stephen and the other newly appointed seven deacons (Acts 6:6).
  • With his dying breath, Stephen asks the Lord to forgive his killers: “Lord, do not hold this sin against them” (Acts 7:60). The conversion of Saul would seem to be an answer to this prayer, as Augustine long ago observed.
  • The Christian community prays for Peter after he has been arrested (Acts 12:5).
  • The early Christians pray for Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13:3).
  • Paul repeatedly says that he prays for other Christians (cf., e.g., Rom 1:9; 2 Cor 13:9; Eph 1:16; Phil 1:4, 9; Col 1:3; 1 Thess 1:2; 5:26; 2 Thess 1:11; 2 Thess 3:1; 2 Tim 1:3; Phil 4). For example, he tells the Corinthians, “we pray God that you may not do wrong” (2 Cor 13:7).
  • Paul prays for the salvation of Israel (Rom 10:1).
  • Paul asks the Christians to pray for him, explaining to them that by doing so they “strive together with me” (Rom 15:30; cf. also Phil 1:19; Col 4:2). Prayer thus brings about a kind of communion. 
  • Paul says that Christians pray for one another (2 Cor 9:14; Col 4:11). In fact, he instructs them to do this: “pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints” (Eph 6:18; here as throughout the New Testament the word "saints" refers to Christians on earth).
  • The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews bluntly asks his readers, “Pray for us” (Heb 13:2).
  • James makes it abundantly clear that we should pray for one another and that we should even confess our sins to one another in that context: “Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.” (James 5:14–16).
  • John says that, with the exception of one guilty of “mortal sin,” praying for one another can restore a sinner: “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that” (1 John 5:16).
  • John prays for his fellow Christians (3 John 2).
Is it unbiblical to pray for one another? No.

What Paul Really Said

In fact, it is especially strange to me that so many non-Catholic Christians condemn the idea that saints can pray for us by turning to 1 Timothy 2:5. Talk about wrenching a text out of context!

Paul’s whole point in the passage is that we can pray for one another because Christ, who has offered himself for all men, is now the one mediator between God and man. Let’s read the whole passage as it stands instead of proof-texting:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. (1 Tim 2:1-6)
Paul clearly did not think that Christ’s role as “the one mediator” excludes the notion that we can pray for one another. Rather, “it is “good” and “acceptable in the sight of God our Savior”! In fact, it is precisely his role as the one mediator that makes it possible for those united in him to pray effectively for others.

In sum, it seems to me that praying for another and asking for prayer from one another is a characteristic of believers. It is hardly a minor theme in the New Testament. Are those who in heaven simply relieved of this obligation? Do they no longer desire to pray for those who need it?

But this raises another question: can the dead pray for the living? Are they even conscious?

Stay tuned!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: apologetics; catholic; saints
Comments to Michael Barber at the site are very good.
1 posted on 05/30/2011 6:14:27 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: All
The Catholic Understanding of the Saints: Isn't Christ the 'One Mediator'? (Part 3)
The Catholic Understanding of the Saints: Detracting from Christ? (Part 2)
The Catholic Understanding of the Saints: A Response to Jim West (Part 1)
2 posted on 05/30/2011 6:15:54 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

If you aren’t on this ping list NOW and would like to be on it, please Freepmail me.

3 posted on 05/30/2011 6:17:14 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; famousdayandyear; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; YellowRoseofTx; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


4 posted on 05/30/2011 6:18:49 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Salvation

Thanks for posting this.


5 posted on 05/30/2011 6:20:09 PM PDT by aposiopetic
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To: aposiopetic

Thank you for stopping by. I think Barber is a superb teacher/professor.


6 posted on 05/30/2011 6:23:37 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

That is a great argument. It also establishes how we venerate Mary and how we ask for intercession (vs mediation).

It is true that in Latin America there was a sort of conflation of “gods” and “saints” but in the long run, the reverence for saints is MECHANICS not THEOLOGY.

My FIL (in Mexico) makes it a point to thank St. Joseph (Patron Saint of Workers) and Francis of Assisi (we went to Real de Catorce and lit candles and prayed). That does not lessen his belief in, love for, and prayers to Christ as Our Savior.

Prayers are like love. You never run out and you have many channels to express.


7 posted on 05/30/2011 6:27:09 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Herman Cain 2012)
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To: Salvation
The author spends the entire column arguing against those who say that praying for one another is unbiblical. This is a red herring; no such people exist. He cites Biblical evidence that praying for one another is important. Nobody disputes this. The question is whether there is any Biblical basis for the notion of dead people praying for each other.
8 posted on 05/30/2011 6:28:55 PM PDT by xjcsa (Ridiculing the ridiculous since the day I was born.)
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To: freedumb2003

**Prayers are like love. You never run out and you have many channels to express.**

A good way to put it.


9 posted on 05/30/2011 6:29:14 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: xjcsa

Did you read the part one and part two posts so you know what he is trying to say and where he is trying to go with this?

He’s trying to establish a diaglogue to answer questions from a Protestant.


10 posted on 05/30/2011 6:30:49 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: xjcsa

Did you read the part one and part two posts so you know what he is trying to say and where he is trying to go with this?

He’s trying to establish a dialogue to answer questions from a Protestant.

What is so terrible about that?


11 posted on 05/30/2011 6:31:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: xjcsa
The author spends the entire column arguing against those who say that praying for one another is unbiblical. This is a red herring; no such people exist. He cites Biblical evidence that praying for one another is important. Nobody disputes this. The question is whether there is any Biblical basis for the notion of dead people praying for each other.

Exactly. And of course, there is no such basis.

12 posted on 05/30/2011 6:42:45 PM PDT by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: Waywardson; xjcsa

I’m sorry that you do not believe the biblical examples given.

Do you have a specific reason, or is this just the anti-Catholic indoctrination into which you have fallen?

I pray for people all the time. I don’t see what is so terrible about that.

I think the next post that he makes will address whether the people who are in heaven can pray for us here on earth.


13 posted on 05/30/2011 6:51:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Waywardson
The Communion of Saints: A Biblical Overview
14 posted on 05/30/2011 6:53:46 PM PDT by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: xjcsa

You wrote:

“The question is whether there is any Biblical basis for the notion of dead people praying for each other.”

Your premise is completely false. No orthodox Christian believes the saints in heaven are dead. Perhaps heretics believe that, but we don’t.


15 posted on 05/30/2011 6:57:01 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When anti-Catholics can't debate they just make stuff up.)
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To: Deo volente

A great resource! Thanks.

From that:

The great Anglican writer and Christian apologist C.S. Lewis, in one of his last books, wrote:

“. . . devotions to saints . . . There is clearly a theological defense for it; if you can ask for the prayers of the living, why should you not ask for the prayers of the dead? I am not thinking of adopting the practice myself; and who am I to judge the practices of others?”


16 posted on 05/30/2011 6:58:13 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
I’m sorry that you do not believe the biblical examples given.

Do you have a specific reason, or is this just the anti-Catholic indoctrination into which you have fallen?

I said nothing of the kind.

I pray for people all the time. I don’t see what is so terrible about that.

Show me where I said anything remotely resembling that. I actually said very nearly the opposite - I don't think there is anyone who thinks it's a bad thing for us to pray for one another.

I think the next post that he makes will address whether the people who are in heaven can pray for us here on earth.

I'll be interested to read it. In the meantime, how about not distorting things I say?

17 posted on 05/30/2011 7:03:38 PM PDT by xjcsa (Ridiculing the ridiculous since the day I was born.)
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To: vladimir998

As St. Paul says, when we die, Charity alone remains. The communion of saints is a communion of love, which is never interrupted. We can pray FOR those with us, those who went before us, and those who come after us.

In general, we as Catholics are asked not to pray TO anyone who is not canonized, since we do not know whether they are in heaven or in some other place.

But saints in heaven, recognized by the Church as examples of heroic virtue and confirmed by verified miracles, are very free to pray for us. So we should not hesitate to ask them for insight, guidance, and grace from the Redeemer. He is a King after all, and fully capable of delegating tasks to those under His dominion, who are bound by holy obedience and love to His Will.

Peace on St. Joan of Arc’s feast day!!


18 posted on 05/30/2011 7:37:38 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: vladimir998

I think you are taking the poster too literally when “dead people” is used. I read it as “people that have died” and in the context of the discussion that would make them the “saints in Heaven”.

Anyway, that is how I took it.


19 posted on 05/30/2011 7:52:00 PM PDT by sigzero
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To: xjcsa

I am asking you questions to try to facilitate some sort of exchange between us.

When you think of your grandmother in heaven, do you think of her lying in a casket, or is she waiting at the gates ready to greet you. If your grandmother has not passed away, perhaps you can put some other relative in there.

It has been proven with testimonies from people who have survived near death experiences that their relatives are all there to greet them, but they are sent back to earth for some reason since they do not die.

Have you ever heard of NDEs?


20 posted on 05/30/2011 8:00:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I saw where question 1 of the following 5 questions often raised by protestants was answered in the article. However, I didn’t see where the author addressed the last 4 questions.

“1.Isn’t Christ the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tim 2:5)? If so, isn’t affirming the ability of the dead to pray for us a violation of that biblical teaching? In light of that, it would seem that there can be no biblical justification for the Catholic belief that saints in heaven can pray for those on earth.
2.Are the dead even conscious? Aren’t the dead “asleep” until the resurrection?
3.If the those who have died are conscious, how do we know they are aware of the needs of Christians on earth?
4.Assuming one could answer the questions above, isn’t it just speculation that the saints pray for those on earth? Is there any clear indication in Scripture that those in heaven actually pray for those on earth?
5.Isn’t it a violation of the biblical prohibition against necromancy to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?”


21 posted on 05/31/2011 9:38:06 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: sigzero

No one is in heaven, yet. From our point of view. All those who died or are alive at the second coming will be transformed or resurrected at the same instant. The event takes place from the perspective of the believer at their death, but from the perspective of the living, all at the same trumpet sound in the end. Both are true statements, because the very thing we call “time” is just an illusion of a static singularity to beings outside of time. Everything that is, is all past tense from the point of view of God, but present and future for limited man.

Thus, the instant someone dies, they are outside time and space and present with the Lord at the end of time. Thus, they cannot pray for events which are already over and ended to which they were unaware when in progress and for which, because it is now the end of time for all the believers, including us.

This is why we are said to be sleeping, from the perspective of the living. And present with the Lord when dead. Both are true. But both prevent the sleeping from being aware of the living or even concerned with our events.

There is one exception. Hades. The dead who are not in Christ are aware of the activities of the living. There is no rest for the wicked.

See: 2 Samuel 7:12, (and likewise 1 Kings 2:10, 11:43, 14:20, 31, 15:8, 24, 16:6, 28, 22:40, 50 etc. etc.), Job 10:21, 13:12-15, 14:21, Psalm 6:5, 13:3, 30:9, 31:17, 49:17-20, 88:10-11, 115:17, Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 10, Isaiah 38:18, John 3:13, 11:11-13, Acts 2:29,34, 13:36, 1 Corinthians 15:51.


22 posted on 05/31/2011 10:07:25 AM PDT by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: Waywardson

I think your explanation is both logical and biblical. There simply aren’t many scripture passages that detail what goes in in Heaven for believers. Therefore, I believe the concept of praying to departed saints relies on speculation of what Heaven is like rather than solid biblical support.


23 posted on 05/31/2011 10:40:31 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
1 Timothy 2:5 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

and 1 Timothy 2:1 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

It is key to read in context and entirety. Christ is the unique intercessor between God and Man because He is both God AND Man and He grants us grace like Eph. 2:18 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. and for others Heb. 4:16 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Saints in heaven are alive in Christ and through God's grace alone can pray for us. We need all the prayers we can get -- from all our family -- whether on earth or in Heaven

24 posted on 06/09/2011 10:53:32 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
turtle: 2.Are the dead even conscious? Aren’t the dead “asleep” until the resurrection?

I'm sorry, that is incorrect, Isaiah 14:9-10 9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

In 1 Samuel 28 we see Saul talking to the dead Samuel. He was not sleeping

1 Peter 3:19 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; -- they were not sleeping

Take the story of Lazarus and the rich man -- they weren't sleeping either

Rev 5:8 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -- they ain't sleeping

Finally, remember Heb 12:1 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, -- we aren't surrounded with sleeping witnesses...

25 posted on 06/09/2011 10:57:27 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
turtle 3.If the those who have died are conscious, how do we know they are aware of the needs of Christians on earth?

Heb 12:1 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, -- witnesses

26 posted on 06/09/2011 10:58:08 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
Turtlepower: 4. assuming one could answer the questions above -- there, answered for you

isn’t it just speculation that the saints pray for those on earth?

rev 5:8 having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Now, the saints are already in heaven, right? So, what are their prayers for?

27 posted on 06/09/2011 11:46:25 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
T: Isn’t it a violation of the biblical prohibition against necromancy to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?”

Necromancy is a form of magic in which the practitioner seeks to summon the spirit of a deceased person, either as an apparition or ghost, or to raise them bodily, for the purpose of divination.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Now, asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is not necromancy. We are not holding a conversation with them, we are not summoning them, we are not raising them bodily and we are definitely not asking them for divination, to find out the future

So, no my friend, this is not necromancy.

28 posted on 06/09/2011 11:52:44 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Turtlepower

Psst. We’ve seen Parts 1, 2 and 3. More are coming.


29 posted on 06/09/2011 6:24:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
Catholic belief that saints in heaven can pray for those on earth

Please do note that this is not just a Catholic belief, but is shared with our other fellow members of the One Apostolic Church -- the Eastern Orthodox, the Orientals (Copts, Armenians, Ethiopians) and the Assyrian Church. All of these are the ancient Churchs founded in Apostolic times.

One, the Assyrian/Chaldean/Ancient Church of the East, was separated from the others by language and politics (it was based initially in Parthia which was an enemy of the Roman Empire and then spread as far as Mongolia) and was not in contact with the others for a long time due to politics, yet they retain the same beliefs.

These are beliefs from Apostolic times, as we see referenced in The Shepherd of Hermas AD 80

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’
and Clement of Alexandria in AD 208
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]"
In fact you can find funerary notes written on graves in the 2nd and 3rd century that say

I don't give this to you as proof (for that, the biblical links above are adequate but rather as evidence that this is what the Early Christians believed -- with reason as we see above

30 posted on 06/10/2011 12:49:56 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
As we pray for each other, in fact are exhorted to do so
Rom. 15:30-32 "I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you"
and
James 5:16-17 "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects"
we are all those who believe in Christ, members of the Body of Christ -- whether on earth or in Heaven. Those in Heaven have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ, made perfect by Him. These saints pray to God as we see in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4 "prayers of the saints".... they have no powers of their own besides their praying to God for us.
31 posted on 06/10/2011 12:54:56 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
As we pray for each other, in fact are exhorted to do so
Rom. 15:30-32 "I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you"
and
James 5:16-17 "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects"
we are all those who believe in Christ, members of the Body of Christ -- whether on earth or in Heaven. Those in Heaven have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ, made perfect by Him. These saints pray to God as we see in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4 "prayers of the saints".... they have no powers of their own and can only pray to God for us.
32 posted on 06/10/2011 12:55:11 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Turtlepower; Salvation
Finally, please note this, not all Protestants believe in point 2 you raised Are the dead even conscious? Aren’t the dead “asleep” until the resurrection? -- let me give you one example -- followers of Calvin like the Presbyterians in fact call this The false doctrine of Soul Sleep

33 posted on 06/10/2011 12:55:32 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Salvation; Turtlepower
TT -- I hope that those explanations were suffice to answer your questions

S -- I guess if you give TT the links to Part 1 and 2 and the next it would help.

34 posted on 06/13/2011 5:43:23 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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