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F.C. Presbyterian Pastor Hails End of Ban on Openly Gay Clergy
Falls Church News ^ | 31 May 2011 | LESLIE POSTER

Posted on 06/02/2011 7:02:38 AM PDT by Cronos

Earlier this month, the national Presbyterian Church approved a change in its constitution to allow openly gay church members to serve as ministers and church leaders. It is a change that one local church pastor says has been a long time coming.

"It's been a Presbyterian family quarrel for about 30 years," said Jonathan Smoot, interim pastor at Falls Church Presbyterian Church.

..

"It's just ridiculous to lift up sexual orientation as a primary criterion for that person's character or suitability for ministry," Smoot said. "I hope this puts an end to it."

"It needs to be read in its historical context and not just used as a bludgeon. It needs to be carefully interpreted as the original writers meant," Smoot said. "I would disagree with my conservative sisters and brothers that the Scripture is making definitive statements about sexuality."

(Excerpt) Read more at fcnp.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: apostasy; gayclergy; homosexualagenda; modernism; presbyterian; religiousleft; sodomy
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From the article "It needs to be read in its historical context and not just used as a bludgeon. It needs to be carefully interpreted as the original writers meant,"

Ay-ay-ye -- more yopios, personal interpretation?

1 posted on 06/02/2011 7:02:40 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

If a homosexual pastor has sex, and he isn’t married to his partner, is it “fornication”?

Or are they doing away with that as well?


2 posted on 06/02/2011 7:04:45 AM PDT by Fido969
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To: Cronos

apostasy


3 posted on 06/02/2011 7:09:10 AM PDT by RatRipper (I'll ride a turtle to work every day before I buy anything from Government Motors.)
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To: Fido969
If a homosexual pastor has sex, and he isn’t married to his partner, is it “fornication”?

Why not? After all, if they are in "committed" relationships, thats all that matters, right?

"Committed" doesn't have a time duration -- can be committed for a couple of hours too... or even a few minutes

4 posted on 06/02/2011 7:09:27 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Cronos
Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

5 posted on 06/02/2011 7:09:43 AM PDT by kingattax (99 % of liberals give the rest a bad name)
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To: Cronos
"It's just ridiculous to lift up sexual orientation as a primary criterion for that person's character or suitability for ministry," Smoot said.

Oh absolutely. Deviant sexual behavior has nothing to do with "character".. /s

6 posted on 06/02/2011 7:10:16 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: Cronos

“It’s just ridiculous to lift up sexual orientation as a primary criterion for that person’s character or suitability for ministry,” Smoot said. “I hope this puts an end to it.”

No Rev. Smoot, the Bible has very specific requirements for those who are fit for ministry. It also has descriptions about false teachers of which you clearly demonstrate you are.


7 posted on 06/02/2011 7:10:42 AM PDT by DarthVader (That which supports Barack Hussein Obama must be sterilized and there are NO exceptions!)
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To: Cronos
For mainline Presbyterians who have had enough, there are PCA churches (Presbyterian Church in America) who are much more conservative. I'm not one, but I can vouch.

8 posted on 06/02/2011 7:14:16 AM PDT by Genoa (Luke 12:2)
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To: Cronos

Apparently, both the Episcopal and Presbyterian churches continue to fail to comprehend one of the reasons why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God.....=.=


9 posted on 06/02/2011 7:18:59 AM PDT by cranked
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To: Genoa
For mainline Presbyterians who have had enough, there are PCA churches (Presbyterian Church in America) who are much more conservative. I'm not one, but I can vouch.

Or you can just go and start your own.


10 posted on 06/02/2011 7:24:09 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: Fido969

There IS NO sexual ethic in the new church of perversion. None.


11 posted on 06/02/2011 7:27:26 AM PDT by fwdude (Prosser wins, Goonions lose.)
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To: Cronos
It looks like this chart needs to be updated.

  Denomination Ordains
Women
Abortion Homo-
sexuality
Scripture Trinity Salvation
by Grace
1 American Baptist 1964
2000      
2 Anglican 1974          
3 Christian Science 1881       Denies Denies
4 Church of England 1992          
5 Church of the Nazarene 1908          
6 Disciples of Christ 1888          
7 Episcopal Church 1976 1973 1996      
8 Evangelical Lutheran Church 1970 1991 2006      
9 First Congregational Church 1853          
10 Foursquare 1927          
11 Free Methodist            
12 National Baptist convention 1895          
13 Presbyterian Church USA 1930 -elder
1956 - Minister
1973 1987      
14 Salvation Army 1865, 1870          
15 Unitarian Universalist Association 1863 1973 1980      
16 United Church of Canada 1936 1990? 1988      
17 United Church of Christ     2005      
18 United Presbyterian Church 1955 1973 Against      
19 United Methodist Church 1956 1973
     
20 Universalist Church of America 1863          
21 Wesleyan Methodist Church 1856          

12 posted on 06/02/2011 7:27:40 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: DJ MacWoW
Deviant sexual behavior has nothing to do with "character".

Of course not, don't be judgemental /sarc ;-)

13 posted on 06/02/2011 7:29:09 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Cronos

Wouldn’t think of it! ;-)


14 posted on 06/02/2011 7:32:04 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: Cronos

Another church without doctrine.


15 posted on 06/02/2011 7:34:00 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Cronos

is this the official ruling body or just another fringe of a church with the name?


16 posted on 06/02/2011 7:37:55 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: longtermmemmory; Cronos

The Presbyterians are changing their church constitution to allow individual churches to choose who to ordain and take as a pastor. They may now be a practicing homosexual.


17 posted on 06/02/2011 7:46:11 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: Cronos; Fido969
Here is a relevant except from the excellent essay by Ronald G. Lee, "The Books were a Front for the Porn: The Truth About the Homosexual Rights Movement."

Although to this day [ex-Father John] McNeill, like all gay Christian propagandists, avoids the subject of sexual ethics as if it were some sort of plague, his life makes his real beliefs clear. He believes in unrestricted sexual freedom. He believes that men and women should have the right to couple, with whomever they want, whenever they want, however they want, and as often as they want. He would probably add some sort of meaningless bromide about no one getting hurt and both parties being treated with respect, but anyone familiar with the snake pit of modern sexual culture (both heterosexual and homosexual) will know how seriously to take that. And he knew perfectly well that if he were honest about his real aims, there would be no Dignity, there would be no gay Christian movement, at least not one with a snowball's chance in Hell of succeeding. That would be like getting rid of the books and letting the casual window-shoppers see the porn. And we can't have that now, can we? In other words, the ex-Fr. McNeill is a bad priest and a con man. And given the often lethal consequences of engaging in homosexual sex, a con man with blood on his hands.

And elsewhere:

Let me be clear. I believe that McNeill's real beliefs, as deduced from his actual behavior, and distinguished from the arguments he puts forward for the benefit of the naïve and gullible, represent the real aims and objectives of the homosexual rights movement. They are the porn that the books are meant to conceal. In other words, if you support what is now described in euphemistic terms as "the blessing of same-sex unions," in practice you are supporting the abolition of the entire Christian sexual ethic, and its substitution with an unrestricted, laissez faire, free sexual market. The reason that the homosexual rights movement has managed to pick up such a large contingent of heterosexual fellow-travelers is simple: Because once that taboo is abrogated, no taboos are left. I once heard a heterosexual Episcopalian put it this way: If I don't want the church poking its nose into my bedroom, how can I condone it when it limits the sexual freedom of homosexuals? That might sound outrageous, but if you still believe that the debate is over the religious status of monogamous same-sex relationships, please be prepared to point out one church somewhere in the U.S. that has opened its doors to active homosexuals without also opening them to every other form of sexual coupling imaginable. I am too old to be taken in by "Father" McNeill and his abstractions anymore. Show me.

If you haven't already, I would recommend that everyone read this very excellent article by Lee, one who has been on the "inside" and knows of that which he speaks. It's long, but well worth the effort.

18 posted on 06/02/2011 7:52:54 AM PDT by fwdude (Prosser wins, Goonions lose.)
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To: Genoa

Thank you for mentioning that there are other Presbyterian churches that still follow biblical teaching. Besides the PCA, there is also the Orthodox Presbyterian Church that left the main Presbyterian denomination when it started down the liberal path back in the 1930s.


19 posted on 06/02/2011 8:03:37 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: Titanites

Many folks follow their own path, but the Bible’s teaching remains forever. Count me among the members of the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church).


20 posted on 06/02/2011 8:06:26 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: longtermmemmory; Cronos

I should add that it is PCUSA pushing the homosexual agenda.


21 posted on 06/02/2011 8:08:44 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: Pining_4_TX
Many folks follow their own path, but the Bible’s teaching remains forever

Most of those following their own path believe they are following the Bible's teaching - which is how the various Presbyterian denominations began.

22 posted on 06/02/2011 8:12:45 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: Fido969
"If a homosexual pastor has sex, and he isn’t married to his partner, is it “fornication”?Or are they doing away with that as well?"

Yes. The resolution allowing gay clery specifically condones fornication. For real.

23 posted on 06/02/2011 8:16:51 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: Titanites

That is how every church or denomination began. To me, Scripture’s teaching is clear and if anyone can convince me from the Bible that what I believe is contrary to that, I will change. Every person thinks what he believes is correct; else he or she would change. It’s as simple as that. Absolute truth exists. It’s up to us to discern it as much as possible with our finite understanding.


24 posted on 06/02/2011 8:26:11 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: DJ MacWoW

I don’t understand that, how can they push?


25 posted on 06/02/2011 8:27:54 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Cronos

I can only chalk it up to they have become more of this world than of Christ. They have forgotten that this is not our home. Heaven is and God is the supreme ruler and lover of our souls. They have invested themselves here on earth and not there.


26 posted on 06/02/2011 8:33:01 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: Pining_4_TX; Titanites
The problem is that I've read This Trinity Foundation website which says "Last year The Trinity Foundation published Paul Elliott’s book, Christianity and Neo-Liberalism: The Spiritual Crisis in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Beyond. That book examines in detail the false doctrine of salvation now being taught in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church

The above website says
Thus, the Report continues the conspiracy of silence that has prevailed in the OPC for three decades. It leaves the erroneous impression that the serious doctrinal problems are outside the denomination, not within it. The Report gives false comfort to those who think the OPC is still a bastion of Biblical orthodoxy. On the contrary, the Report, and the 2006 General Assembly’s commendation of it, both maintain the OPC as a safe haven for those who teach error

.....

Men within the OPC, including at least one member of the Committee itself, teach heresy regarding the Gospel and many other fundamentals of the faith.
you can read the details at the link on page 109 why the Former Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) ruling elder Paul M. Elliott says that

Why does a former ruling elder of the OPC say that? Well, he gives his reasons in his book about the heresy that he believes the OPC is following and he is urging every OPCer to leave.

I guess if one disagrees with him, he's given his posting and email address in the book. accordingly.

The author’s thesis is that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) is today exactly where the PCUSA was back then.

This is disturbing

27 posted on 06/02/2011 8:35:30 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Pining_4_TX; Titanites
From Trinity Lectures Foundation

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church was founded in 1936 by about 135 people who were offended by the lack of discipline in and doctrinal errors of the Presbyterian Church in the USA. .
But early in its history the OPC fell under the influence of an agnostic view of propositional revelation emanating from Westminster Seminary -- a view that said that there is no identity of content between the \"Christian system\" of theology, meaning Reformed confessions of faith, and the \"divine system\" of theology, known only to God.

This agnosticism has now brought the OPC to the point of falling. Like its predecessor, the PCUSA, the OPC has failed to discipline teachers who teach contrary to Scriptures and the Confession of Faith, and it has endorsed un-Biblical teaching about Scripture and the Gospel.
From Trinity Lectures Foundation

Despite the painstaking efforts of many fine Christians within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC), the leaders of the OPC maintain a suicidal course. Despite the departure of congregations and individuals from the OPC, due to the leaders' collective inability to resolve the current justification controversy Biblically, the OPC leaders continue to advance doctrines that contradict Scripture. The OPC is, in the words of its late historian Charles Dennison, "obviously inept, bumbling, [and] confused."1 That confusion now appears to be fatal.

At this point in its history, the confessional affirmations of the OPC have no more credibility than the confessional affirmations of the PCUSA from 1936 to 1967. One of the commissioners to the 2004 OPC General Assembly made this very point: "There was a time when, if the OPC said it, it was accepted. The 2003 deliverance that accompanied the decision to acquit [John Kinnaird] destroyed forever that our words will not be questioned. The PCUSA always said that the [Westminster] Confession was their confession (even as they were denying it)."

28 posted on 06/02/2011 8:35:52 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Cronos

As far as I know, the OPC is in the process of kicking out the Fed Vision nuts. Why this takes so long, I have no idea. I will find out more about it.


29 posted on 06/02/2011 8:40:11 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: Cronos
Just what they want?


30 posted on 06/02/2011 8:44:17 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Pining_4_TX

that’s good. What’s the difference between the OPC and the PCA?


31 posted on 06/02/2011 9:00:42 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Pining_4_TX
That is how every church or denomination began.

I can understand you having that belief.

32 posted on 06/02/2011 9:06:09 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: Cronos

That is disturbing. It does look like they’re headed the same way as the PCUSA. More splitting and division to come, I suspect.


33 posted on 06/02/2011 9:08:33 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: Cronos

Of course, much depends on whether you are asking someone from the OPC or the PCA. ;-) They are the same in official doctrine. They both adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith. There are some slight differences in the PCA and OPC Book of Church Order, which states how things should be run.

The OPC was formed in the late 1930s when J. Gresham Machen and some other men took a stand against the increasing liberalism of the main Presbyterian body. They lost a great deal personally in leaving and forming a new denomination. The PCA was formed in the 1970s when the northern and southern branches of the main Presbyterian denomination agreed to join. The church was becoming even more liberal, and many people left to form the PCA.

The OPC tends to be more formal and conservative in its worship services (some in the PCA would say stodgy, I suppose). There are more OP churches in the north and more PCA in the south, although both are expanding into new territory.

Just an aside, Pastor Bruce Hunt was an OP pastor who stood up to the Japanese in Korea and was imprisoned for it. The Koreans were so impressed by his courage that the Presbyterian church in Korea flourished. http://www.wts.edu/resources/sarang/brucehunt.html

Hope that helps.


34 posted on 06/02/2011 9:18:03 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: Cronos

35 posted on 06/02/2011 9:22:21 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Just once I'd like someone to call me 'Sir' without adding 'You're making a scene.' - Homer Simpson)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Thanks! I just looked up - it seems that the OPC also does not have women pastors or deaconesses while the PCA is heading to the latter.


36 posted on 06/02/2011 9:24:43 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Cronos

I hope the PCA does not take that route. The Bible is quite clear on that issue. And, every church that has ordained women, has gone on to considering ordaining homosexuals.


37 posted on 06/02/2011 9:26:55 AM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: Pining_4_TX
I hope the PCA does not take that route. The Bible is quite clear on that issue. And, every church that has ordained women, has gone on to considering ordaining homosexuals.

correct -- and that latter is scarily true. The PCA is heading down that route unfortunately.

38 posted on 06/02/2011 9:32:39 AM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Pining_4_TX

I re-read the Trinity website. It seems the guy has seriously pointed out flaws in the OPC and how it’s close to imploding. Ah, well, it’s an about 80 year old denomination


39 posted on 06/02/2011 2:51:17 PM PDT by Cronos (Palin, Cain, Jindal)
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To: Cronos; 185JHP; 230FMJ; AKA Elena; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; Amos the Prophet; ...
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Homosexuals and pretend believers destroying another denomination.

40 posted on 06/02/2011 3:18:35 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: Cronos
I re-read the Trinity website. It seems the guy has seriously pointed out flaws in the OPC and how it’s close to imploding. Ah, well, it’s an about 80 year old denomination

With the OPC and the PCA I don't think the problem is with the church denominations getting older but that the churches are getting flooded with growth from those that are fleeing the liberal churches, which more often then not end up polluting the small churches that the people flee too, whether it be a small Presbyterian denomination or some small nondenominational church.

Also I'm not a big fan of congregation rule as I've seen a few PCA churches elect pastors more often based on personality and looks etc then in what they're believes are. A Young good looking fellow always wins over an old fellow no matter what they believe when congregation is full of women. :^)

41 posted on 06/02/2011 3:49:11 PM PDT by ReformedBeckite ( 2 of 3 I'm only allowing my self each day)
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To: little jeremiah

This is part of a widespread attack on all religions, imho.


42 posted on 06/02/2011 3:55:59 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

It would be interesting if someone could do a survey of atheists and find out how many are really “live and let live” and how many are aggressive. And those pushing the homosexual agenda are particularly driven, whether they’re outright atheists or faux “believers”.


43 posted on 06/02/2011 4:06:40 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah

It would be interesting, but it is my impression that their responses might be somewhat deceptive.


44 posted on 06/02/2011 4:17:15 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

Of course, you are right. Lying would be no problem especially if it served their purposes.

Gosh, am I dumb!


45 posted on 06/02/2011 4:26:12 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah
LOL! That'll be the day!

But seriously, atheists have no foundation for morality. Why would deception be off-limits?

46 posted on 06/02/2011 4:28:21 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

“What’s true for you is true for you, and what’s true for me is true for me-eee”.

(Sung in a horrid sing-song voice...)

But of course they don’t really believe that, since we’re wrong for believing what we believe!


47 posted on 06/02/2011 4:47:27 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah

Our beliefs are founded on 2,000+ years of truth and tradition. :)


48 posted on 06/02/2011 4:59:06 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: little jeremiah
Homosexuals and pretend believers destroying another denomination.

There is a lot of non-homosexual pretend believers out there too, in fact I bet you the homosexual ones are a drop in the bucket compared to the non-homosexual ones.

49 posted on 06/02/2011 6:25:14 PM PDT by ReformedBeckite ( 3 of 3 I'm only allowing my self each day)
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To: Cronos

Wrong, the BOCO (Book of Church Order) is very clear about deacons being men. I am an elder in the PCA, so I am very aware of the issue.


50 posted on 06/02/2011 7:26:12 PM PDT by irishtenor (Everything in moderation, however, too much whiskey is just enough... Mark Twain)
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