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LDS Church ranch making big impact in Florida
KSL.com ^ | May 18, 2011 | John Hollenhorst

Posted on 06/15/2011 9:09:38 AM PDT by Colofornian

ST. CLOUD, Fla. — Most Utahns are unaware that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owns one of the biggest ranches in the country — and it's nowhere near the Beehive State.

Because of its prominent location, millions have seen the ranch without realizing what it was. But managers are opening the curtain; they have a message they want the public to hear.

______________________________

Deseret Ranch

From St. Cloud to:

Orlando Airport: 10 miles

Kennedy Space Center: 15 miles

Magic Kingdom: 22 miles

______________________________

The cowboys are up before dawn, but this is not the Old West.

They ride out into Florida fog to punch cows — a lot of cows. In all, there are 44,000 of them, producing over 30,000 calves each year.

"It's good cattle country. At times it can be a hard environment to run cattle in," said David Genho, cattle development manager at the Deseret Cattle and Citrus Ranch.

Over the decades, the cattle have been specially bred at the ranch to thrive in a tropical climate.

Along with the cattle, the ranch has groves and groves of citrus fruit. Every year, it produces enough oranges to make 50 million glasses of orange juice.

_______________________________________________________

By the numbers:

Deseret Cattle & Fruit

- 500 billion gallons of rain fall the ranch receives annually (1.5 times the volume of Utah Lake)

- 290-300,000 acres (450 sq. miles)

* 165,000 acres of pasture land

* 75,000 acres of wetlands

* 60,000 acres of timber

* 1,700 acres of citrus orchards (producing 50 million 8 oz glasses of orange juice annually)

* 920 acres of row crops (450 acres of potatoes for Frito Lay Chips)

- 44,000 cows

- 33,000 calves born annually

- 1,400 bulls

- 1,400 miles of fencing

- 380+ documented species of vertebrate animals- many threatened or endangered

* 245 birds

* 53 fish

* 33 reptiles

* 31 mammals

* 20 amphibians

- 90 employees

- 61 years of operation (acquired in 1950)

- 45 hunting clubs have rights to use land

_______________________________________________________

But there's also a profusion of wildlife. To see it all you have to walk through jungles, or take a wild ride on an airboat across a thriving aquatic habitat — where you run a pretty good chance of getting crossways with an alligator.

"Occasionally they'll take a calf; and just last week one of our cowboys had his favorite dog that went down to get a drink and … that was the last of him," said David Wright, environmental affairs manager at the ranch.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acquired the property in 1950, and Florida grew up around it.

"Just the scale of it is hard to grasp," said environmental consultant W. Michael Dennis. "We're in this remote area, but yet it's still very close to all the urban centers of central Florida."

It's not far from Disney World, for one. It covers nearly 300,000 acres — more than 450 square miles spanning much of the distance from the Orlando airport to the Kennedy Space Center.

Urbanization is creating challenges "with the pressures for water, the pressures for land, the pressures for transportation corridors," Dennis said.

As legal and political controversy rises over those issues, ranch managers are now proudly displaying what they've done for the environment.

"The ranch has been a good steward of this land for 60 years," Dennis said.

The ranch won a Florida environmental leadership award for creating a one square mile wetlands reservoir to purify storm water runoff.

"The natural wetland vegetation takes up any nutrients that are found in the water; the nutrient levels are already very low," said Erik Jacobsen, general manager of the ranch.

The reservoir is now a haven for wildlife. "We've documented over 380 species on the ranch. Some are protected and some are rare," Jacobsen said.

They created a rookery, a nesting area, for thousands of birds by re-landscaping. It created island sanctuaries protected from predators by a moat full of alligators.

"We want to protect the environment; and that's been part of our responsibility since we've been here," Genho said.

On a broad scale, they've achieved an award-winning stewardship approach with a carefully designed mosaic of wetlands, pasture and timberland.

"Just the nature of our ranching operations is a huge benefit to the surrounding area because of the diversity of habitat it creates for wildlife," Jacobsen said. "It creates a huge area for groundwater recharge."

Rather than pumping precious groundwater, ranch managers capture and use surface water almost entirely. The ranch is currently battling a lawsuit that's aimed at turning over some of that water to surrounding communities.

"I think through cooperation we can come up with solutions that will be able to sustain the water supply in the area for years to come," said James Payne, manager of properties at the ranch.

Recently the ranch was honored for its environmental stewardship of the land. It won a "best in the region" award from the National Cattlemen's Beef Association.

hollenhorst@ksl.com


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: classenvy; florida; inman; jealousy; lds; mormon; ranch
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This is the key reason why they say that Lds, Inc. owns literally 1% of Florida...this ranch is 300,000 acres.

From the article: Most Utahns are unaware that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owns one of the biggest ranches in the country — and it's nowhere near the Beehive State. [click for map]

From the article: ...450 acres of potatoes for Frito Lay Chips...

...Now that's a real healthy physical and spiritual mission field for the Mormons!

1 posted on 06/15/2011 9:09:44 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

It would be nice if more churches owned and worked ranches instead of whining for more government handouts and helping settle Muslim terrorists in America as my former denomination (ELCA) does.


2 posted on 06/15/2011 9:17:19 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Colofornian
The most pairs of magic underwear made from one
giraffe was by John Smith(no relation), in 1893.

Amazingly, over 275 pair were made over the course
of three weeks. A record that still stands to this day.


3 posted on 06/15/2011 9:17:59 AM PDT by laotzu
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To: Colofornian

As much as I like individual Mormons I’ve known, am I the only one this seems a bit cultish to? If it’s church owned, is it tax-free?


4 posted on 06/15/2011 9:19:07 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: OldNewYork
No, you are not the only one. Yes, there is little they do that is not tax exempt. Last estimate was the lds church is worth $4 billion.
5 posted on 06/15/2011 9:25:22 AM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: OldNewYork
As much as I like individual Mormons I’ve known, am I the only one this seems a bit cultish to? If it’s church owned, is it tax-free?

Yes, tax-free.

Also, many retired Mormons come at their own expense to work this and other Lds ranches...(Lds owns other similar ag ranches in states like Idaho and Washington). So yes, this ranch has employees...but notice it has less than 100 for a 300,000 acre ranch.

(And, of course, Lds, Inc. is a cult)

6 posted on 06/15/2011 9:26:47 AM PDT by Colofornian (I already have a God as my leader. Why do I need ANOTHER one as POTUS?)
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To: OldNewYork
Sorry forgot to add the reason the net worth is a guess is because lds leaders will not open their books even to the membership.
7 posted on 06/15/2011 9:26:53 AM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: svcw

This seems like a prime example of willful abuse of the tax-exemption for churches. How has their business affected other, similar businesses in the area that have to pay their own taxes, plus make up for the taxes not paid by the LDS church ranch? Their environmental stewardship is great, and, knowing the general intelligence of Mormons, I’d expect is well run, but all that just seems like window-dressing on something unsellable when you actually look at it closely.


8 posted on 06/15/2011 9:30:09 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: laotzu
That particular giraffe is not from the ranch in Florida. It is from South America. A little known fact is that the Mormons bought Paraguay and are going to turn it into a theme park. It's still a secret so you won't find much about it on the interwebs.

They also have mooses and llamas.

9 posted on 06/15/2011 9:32:03 AM PDT by MARTIAL MONK (I'm waiting for the POP!)
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To: Colofornian

Thanks for the information. I posted before seeing your response, otherwise I would have included you for my post above to scvw. If Romney gets in, I’m sure we can expect even more of this nonsense.


10 posted on 06/15/2011 9:32:10 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: All; OldNewYork; svcw
Here's an article from 2009: LDS Inc. owns .7% of Florida

It mentions: LDS, Inc. has more than $1 billion in for-profit property in Florida -- and breaks that down by counties in Florida.

11 posted on 06/15/2011 9:35:52 AM PDT by Colofornian (I already have a God as my leader. Why do I need ANOTHER one as POTUS?)
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To: Colofornian; svcw

Thanks for the link - reading it now. I get the feeling reigning them in is going to make bringing Scientology to account look like a cake walk.


12 posted on 06/15/2011 9:42:32 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: OldNewYork; All
This seems like a prime example of willful abuse of the tax-exemption for churches. How has their business affected other, similar businesses in the area that have to pay their own taxes, plus make up for the taxes not paid by the LDS church ranch?

Well, you've hit just the surface.

Here's an example of what you're talking about with the ag competition in Idaho: Farmers face off with LDS Church

The "non-profit" LDS church creates problems even with Mormon farmers w/their commercial produce enterprise!

Note this quote from an LDS church member:

Declo farmer Mark Darrington, however, is also concerned the church intended to take over management and does not see that as being in the best interest of his community. "I am an active member of the Mormon Church, but facts is facts,” he said. “I did not want them to turn this into a big corporate farm because of the impact on the local community.” For one, he said, “local vendors are bypassed. I think that puts a bad taste not just in non-members’ mouth but also in members’ mouth.” ...He said the church setting up a large entity and garnering large potato contracts would have an adverse effect...“The church tends to not cooperate with growers,” he said. Source: Farmers face off with LDS Church

So the Lds church grows all these potatoes in Idaho and Florida and sells them with large contracts to Frito Lays for unhealthy potato chips!

(I'll think I'll be buying less cult-laced Frito products for family gatherings in the future)

13 posted on 06/15/2011 9:43:38 AM PDT by Colofornian (I already have a God as my leader. Why do I need ANOTHER one as POTUS?)
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To: svcw; OldNewYork; Colofornian
The LDS church does pay taxes on this ranch. It is not tax exempt.

I found the following information on wikipedia, so take it for what it's worth:

The remaining assets include direct investments in for-profit businesses managed through Deseret Management Corporation. Although the LDS church is a tax-exempt organization, its for-profit entities generate "unrelated business income" that is subject to federal, state, and local income and other taxes.

Subsidiaries of Deseret Management Corporation
Agriculture - Farmland Reserve Inc.
Farmland Reserve Inc. - over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).

14 posted on 06/15/2011 9:48:00 AM PDT by oremites
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To: OldNewYork
If it’s church owned, is it tax-free?

There's nothing here to see. Move along smartly now...


15 posted on 06/15/2011 9:48:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MARTIAL MONK

My sister has never even gotten CLOSE to a llama, after that moose thing...


16 posted on 06/15/2011 9:49:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: OldNewYork

Yes tax-free, and yes this ranch takes full advantage of it’s tax free status in unincorporated Orange and Volusia county.

What I especially love is the toll road (528) running through the heart of their community has an exit for their residential neighborhoods that is EZPass ONLY, meaning no toll booth attendant, no coin receptacles, and no way to legally exit the highway without a prepaid EZPass transformer.

And their local LEO sit right at the exit ramp all day and tail any out of area cars that exit there.

Got pulled over twice in the same spot on this exit... the ranch allows hiking on one corner of their property as a right of way for a larger trail system, and there is supposedly legal parking at a trailhead, however, it is “highly frowned upon son for outsiders to come here snooping around”. I was living less than 10 miles from there at the time too.

The area is a beautiful hike in the dry season though.


17 posted on 06/15/2011 9:50:04 AM PDT by JerseyHighlander
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To: Colofornian

I’d heard of other churches doing things like this elsewhere, an example being the Seventh Day Adventists in Australia and their consumer food products, but there doesn’t seem to be any comparison with this. Milk before meat I guess - none of the Mormons I’ve talked to, and there have been a few in powerful positions, mentioned any of this.


18 posted on 06/15/2011 9:52:30 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: Colofornian

I wonder if Jesus hung out with the Seminoles too.


19 posted on 06/15/2011 9:52:36 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
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To: Colofornian
LDS, Inc. has more than $1 billion in for-profit property in Florida . . .

Sort of puts to the lie your contention that these for-profit businesses are tax exempt, doesn't it?

FWIW, the ECLA owns for-profit businesses such as insurance companies and non-profit businesses such as nursing homes.

Taxes are paid on the former, but not the later (except payroll taxes). Colleges which operate for-profit businesses pay taxes on them as well. Even if the owner-operator of said business is a non-profit organization.

If you or I operate a ranch which produces food which is sold into the for-profit market, tax is payable on any profits. If the food is distributed to a non-profit food pantry or its equivalent, then it is tax-exempt. It really isn't all that complicated. The same laws which apply to your state university or the ELCA also apply to the LDS chuch. Annoying, isn't it? < / sarcasm >

20 posted on 06/15/2011 9:55:50 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: JerseyHighlander

Very interesting; thanks for sharing local knowledge.


21 posted on 06/15/2011 9:56:07 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: oremites

Not quite true, Deseret Ranch LLC and “the Church” has forced the area to remain unincorporated for much of the last 20 years, significantly reducing the value of adjacent land as there are almost no municipal services.

The whole ranch will some day become a metroplex (with upwards of a half millino residents) according to the State of Florida master plan called Project 2060. Figure 6 on page 15:
http://www.1000friendsofflorida.org/PUBS/2060/Florida-2060-Report-Final.pdf

That plan was made during the peak of the RRE bubble... however the Deseret Ranch LLC was/is on board eventually turning the ranch into MCsuburbia.


22 posted on 06/15/2011 9:57:07 AM PDT by JerseyHighlander
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To: 75thOVI; Ravenstar; June2; LuvFreeRepublic; AdvisorB; 88keys; Matchett-PI; mcmuffin; 3D-JOY; ...
Brevard County, Florida "192" ping.

Let me know if you want on or off this ping list.
(not associated with the county government)


23 posted on 06/15/2011 9:57:15 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (They think "just because she's right on every damn issue doesn't give her enough credibility.")
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To: Colofornian
Rather than pumping precious groundwater, ranch managers capture and use surface water almost entirely. The ranch is currently battling a lawsuit that's aimed at turning over some of that water to surrounding communities.

Interesting conundrum. Sounds like they are interfering with watershed replenishment but are doing so in lieu of drawing from the watershed.

24 posted on 06/15/2011 10:03:57 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (They think "just because she's right on every damn issue doesn't give her enough credibility.")
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To: oremites

“Although the LDS church is a tax-exempt organization, its for-profit entities generate “unrelated business income” that is subject to federal, state, and local income and other taxes.”

Thanks for the information. If that’s true, it lessens the outrage, but still leaves me with many questions about them.


25 posted on 06/15/2011 10:04:22 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: JerseyHighlander
“highly frowned upon son for outsiders to come here snooping around”.


26 posted on 06/15/2011 10:11:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: NonValueAdded

It seems all the land from the power lines along I95 all the way to St. Cloud is in this parcel.

When they bought the land no one wanted it and it was largely swamp. They escavated and drained it before all the environmental controls we now have went into effect. ( Disney did much the same thing and is a city in control of their own standards.)

Large squares where the cattle are held have no fences and animals are moved with portable bridges when necessary. (Cowboys in trucks can be seen from the main highway.)

They purchase locally and their people support our local businesses when they shop. It is not all bad, but secretive.

Do not let your hot air balloon cross into their property when landing. You will have to walk in and carry it all out! We were warned and made a fast and wet landing to avoid it one time!

For those reading and not familiar with this area...this is bordered by the new city of Viera. Central Brevard and soon to be the largest community in the county.


27 posted on 06/15/2011 10:36:35 AM PDT by 3D-JOY
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To: oremites
Who do you think you are?

Trying to counter the caterwauling of libtard lynch mobs with facts!

28 posted on 06/15/2011 10:56:52 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Colofornian

***...Now that’s a real healthy physical and spiritual mission field for the Mormons!***

Just curious, but do the Mormons still require city Mormon teens to “volunteer” to do a day’s hard labor on the church owned lands?


29 posted on 06/15/2011 10:58:08 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS!)
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To: Vigilanteman
The Church does own a number of farm properties. As you know, we have some welfare properties whose produce is used to supply food for the needy. These are operated strictly for charitable purposes and legally qualify for tax-exempt status.

Then we have some commercial farm properties. I spoke earlier of the reserves of the Church. Prudent management requires that this money be put to use. In that process, we have purchased and hold some good, productive farms. They are well operated under capable management, and they yield a conservative rate of return. We have felt that good farms, over a long period, represent a safe investment where the assets of the Church may be preserved and enhanced, while at the same time they are available as an agricultural resource to feed people should there come a time of need.

Again, all such commercial properties are taxed under the government entities where they are located. Not only do they pay property taxes, but also income taxes on any profits. So it is with all of the commercial operations of the Church.

This was from Gordon Hinkley in 1991.

FWIW farmers and ranchers like these enterprises. Good neighbors and properties are kept up. A phone call to them in times of distress will garner more volunteers than you could ever use.

30 posted on 06/15/2011 11:17:35 AM PDT by MARTIAL MONK (I'm waiting for the POP!)
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To: OldNewYork; oremites; Vigilanteman; MARTIAL MONK; JerseyHighlander
“Although the LDS church is a tax-exempt organization, its for-profit entities generate “unrelated business income” that is subject to federal, state, and local income and other taxes.” [Oremites]

Sort of puts to the lie your contention... [Vigilanteman]

Thanks for the information. If that’s true, it lessens the outrage... [OldNewYork]

These are operated strictly for charitable purposes and legally qualify for tax-exempt status....Again, all such commercial properties are taxed under the government entities where they are located. [MartialMonk, quoting Hinckley the "prophet"]

Some of Lds' ranches & ag properties are indeed tax-exempt as Martial Monk, citing the Lds "prophet" indicated. Others are not.

It doesn't change what I quoted earlier from another article: LDS, Inc. has more than $1 billion in for-profit property in Florida.

So, a non-profit entity runs for-profit businesses -- with for-profit property worth over $1 billion just in FL alone. Now replicate my all its other holdings in Utah, Hawaii, Idaho, Washington, etc.

Just as for-profit businesses are able to make donations with its grant-giving to liberal entities (abortion, homosexuality, etc.) -- my guess would be that if you look under the hood -- these "for-profit" entities wind up "donating" much to the Lds umbrella.

Hence a chunk of it washes back to "non-profit" Lds, Inc.

31 posted on 06/15/2011 11:42:05 AM PDT by Colofornian (I already have a God as my leader. Why do I need ANOTHER one as POTUS?)
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To: Colofornian

“... but still leaves me with many questions about them” was the end part of what you quoted from me above.

You’ve hit on a few of them there.


32 posted on 06/15/2011 11:48:08 AM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Asking Colofornian for information on Mormons is sort of like asking Julius Streicher for information on Jews.


33 posted on 06/15/2011 11:48:52 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Colofornian
That obviously isn't as stupid as it sounds.

Can't be.

34 posted on 06/15/2011 11:49:28 AM PDT by MARTIAL MONK (I'm waiting for the POP!)
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To: Colofornian

BFD! You are free to buy your potato chips from somebody other than Frito-Lay. And I’m free to buy my car insurance from somebody other than Progressive.


35 posted on 06/15/2011 11:52:21 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Colofornian
They own it.

After tax profits go to the owner.

36 posted on 06/15/2011 11:54:31 AM PDT by MARTIAL MONK (I'm waiting for the POP!)
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To: Vigilanteman; Colofornian

So what is it that bothers you about C’s info, since they always use lds sources?


37 posted on 06/15/2011 11:56:11 AM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: svcw

The same thing which bothers me about Julius Streicher’s information on Jews, quoted from mainly Jewish sources.


38 posted on 06/15/2011 12:11:09 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Vigilanteman

So you are bothered by lds information - I so get that. I am also bothered by mormonISM.


39 posted on 06/15/2011 12:12:35 PM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: svcw

If you still don’t get it, try googling “Julius Streicher” and “Der Strummer”. I can’t make it any clearer than that.


40 posted on 06/15/2011 12:16:25 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Vigilanteman

Oh, I do get it. You are saying that C is a nazi.


41 posted on 06/15/2011 12:36:38 PM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: whattajoke

Jesus likes the Gators since Tim was named QB!


42 posted on 06/15/2011 12:40:39 PM PDT by GOYAKLA (Flush Congress in 2010 & 2012)
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To: OldNewYork

As much as I like individual Mormons I’ve known, am I the only one this seems a bit cultish to? If it’s church owned, is it tax-free?

***

Yep!
....got to watch that Church they feed the poor!

http://www.providentliving.org/


43 posted on 06/15/2011 1:12:39 PM PDT by restornu (I really do need to give up my summer cottage in Babylon...Love One Another... God Bless America!)
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To: Vigilanteman; svcw
Asking Colofornian for information on Mormons is sort of like asking Julius Streicher for information on Jews.

You should talk, Vigilante. Your former denomination, the ELCA, has long had abortion coverage for its churchworkers -- perhaps going back to when you were a member, eh?

So $ you gave to the church may have wound up paying for an abortion, eh? Did you ever object to that when you were a member? No? You went along with it?

I saw recently that there's a movie out now on the BTK killer (Bind, Torture, Kill) guy. He was a lay president of an ELCA church in Kansas.

And then the most notorious late-term abortionist, George Tiller "the Killer," was an usher at a Wichita ELCA church...where he was killed. Just think of all of his tithing blood $ going into the ELCA denomination for so-called "ministry" purposes.

Tiller had been a member there for a long time. Did you ever object to that -- either when you were an ELCA member or after you left?

Sounds to me like some of your ELCA buds were trying to put the old killers of Jews to shame.

The only Q is: Did you go along with these kinds of dismemberment sanctioning or not?

44 posted on 06/15/2011 1:26:05 PM PDT by Colofornian (I already have a God as my leader. Why do I need ANOTHER one as POTUS?)
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To: restornu
Yep! ....got to watch that Church they feed the poor!

What? They feed the poor potato chips?

45 posted on 06/15/2011 1:27:49 PM PDT by Colofornian (I already have a God as my leader. Why do I need ANOTHER one as POTUS?)
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To: Colofornian
FWIW, it has been decades since I left the ELCA. The first clue they were going off track was that the local pastor spent so much time trashing first Catholics, and when that become politcally incorrect following the Kennedy assassination, then Mormons that they failed to see the leftist termites gnawing at the entire structure of the organization.

Sadly, the ELCA has a lot of company in the same situation.

46 posted on 06/15/2011 1:36:00 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: restornu

Isn’t it all about more than just feeding the poor? Satisfying spiritual hunger, feeding themselves, that kind of thing? Are some of those poor who are being fed people who lost a farm, or were otherwise adversely affected by a church-owned mega-agrobusiness, or whatever, in competition with their business? And if you look above, I didn’t single out LDS, mentioning the Seventh Day Adventists in Australia, and alluding to others.


47 posted on 06/15/2011 1:44:45 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: Vigilanteman

“It would be nice if more churches owned and worked ranches instead of whining for more government handouts and helping settle Muslim terrorists in America as my former denomination (ELCA) does.”

I agree. It’s a very good idea. I really disagree with their theology, but this is at least one way in which this church’s members get it right.


48 posted on 06/15/2011 1:56:01 PM PDT by Morpheus2009
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To: restornu

Huh? Well, the ward my uncle was a bishop at never fed his children when he was trying to raise three teenagers and a pre-teen when my aunt was in the hospital for four months, two which were in intensive care. Oh, wait someone did bring a pizza to them on Thanksgiving Day.


49 posted on 06/15/2011 2:00:39 PM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: OldNewYork

Yep how sad your opening was a disclaimer so you would not look prejudice....


50 posted on 06/15/2011 2:07:24 PM PDT by restornu (I really do need to give up my summer cottage in Babylon...Love One Another... God Bless America!)
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