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How the Peace of Jerusalem Will Be Established
http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2011/06/how-peace-of-jerusalem-will-be.html ^ | 6/22/11

Posted on 06/22/2011 7:24:05 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman

How the Peace of Jerusalem Will Be Established

As of late, we have seen the world led by the United States seeking to strip from Israel it present day borders and bullying them into a forced agreement with those who absolutely abhor them and seek their utter destruction. Sadly, America (who is governed at the moment by the progressive Left) has always been Israel’s strongest ally but at present has forsaken Israel and thrown them under the Middle East Islamic bus. With an anti-Israeli Europe and now a current anti-Israeli U.S. administration, Israel’s back is totally up against the wall and they know it.

"Sadly, America (who is governed at the moment by the progress Left) - has always been Israel’s strongest ally but at present has seemed to have forsaken Israel and thrown them under the Middle East Islamic bus"

When the present world which we are living in has become hostile and aggressive towards Israel, do not expect to see them idly stand by and let the world decide their fate and eradicate them from off of the face of the earth. Israel is a military might in that region with nukes and is armed to the teeth. As the world continues its anti-Semitic agenda they will one day choose to look the other way and allow Israel’s enemies in that region to grossly cross the line with Israel. It will be then that Israel - in the reaction of self defense and national survival - will finally strike back with great fury and military might. Israel will totally institute the Limbaugh Doctrine and secure their borders. They will obliterate and wipe out their border enemies unto the point that they will achieve finally complete safety and security (Ezek. 38:8, 11-12). Israel will bring about their “own” peace and the world at that time will be forced to recognize it. It will be after this time that a man from Europe will broker a deal and lend his might to a covenant (peace treaty) on behalf of Israel’s greatly defeated enemies. This European leader will enter into a seven year covenant with Israel not from a position of dominance but rather from a position of weakness (Dan. 9:27, Rev. 6:2).

It will be just before these events transpire that the Rapture of the Church will take place in which Almighty God the Son will call out His body (saints and ambassadors). This event (i.e., The Rapture) will be a wondrous sign unto the apostate western “post - Christian” world and have more of an impact on their culture and society than other regions in the world. It will be just after this event takes place that all had better be prepared, for Almighty God's "Day of Wrath" is now at hand (2 Thess. 2:3-12)!

"All these are the beginning of sorrows (birth pangs) Matt. 24:8".. As we are leading up to that time we are constantly seeing Israel’s border enemies being ever more emboldened to stir up strife and lash out against Israel. Just in this last month alone we have seen Israel’s border enemies seeking to bait and provoke Israel to engage them and rally world opinion and its leaders against them. Israel’s border enemies - especially the Palestinian people - sadly are nothing but the pawns and victims of the anti Semitic Arab nations, Iran and Russia. These weaker Islamic nations are more than willing to heed these voices and are rabidly chomping at the bit to destroy Israel and occupy Israel’s land.

Connecting the Dots

Now to put this all together with a last days biblical perspective. The official commencement of the horrific seven year period (i.e., The Day of the Lord) will begin with the breaking of the 1st seal (i.e., the "Confirming of the Covenant" - Dan. 9:27) by Almighty God’s Lamb (i.e., The Lord Jesus Christ) in Heaven (Rev. 6:1). It is at this precise moment that the man of lawlessness (i.e., the anti-Christ) will be revealed unto the entire world (2 Thess. 2: 3-12; Rev. 6:2). This revealing of the Anti-Christ and the commencement of this seven year tribulation period will begin (as was stated prior) when this man (i.e., the Anti-Christ) adding his position of great power and authority to a covenant with Israel on the behalf of Israel’s DEFEATED enemies (Ezek. 38:8,11-12, Dan. 9: 27). Israel will sign this covenant from a position of absolute strength, not weakness. This prophetic position is contrary to that to which many great biblical scholars have held through the years (Ezek 38: 8). When this position (position of strength) is received, all the prophetic pieces come together as we shall see.

"Israel will sign this covenant from a position of absolute strength, not weakness contrary to that which many biblical scholars have believed"

With the complete defeat of Israel's border enemies Israel will then have the rest and peace that they have so long sought and will dwell in their land in complete safety. One event Israel did not anticipate will be the Rapture of the Church of believers (Israel's strongest ally) and the arrival of Almighty God’s Two wondrous Messengers (Ezek. 38:8,11-12, Rev. 11:3-7). Sadly with this newly acquisition and position of power Israel's heart will NOT be right with Almighty God (Rev. 11:8). Tragically, in Israel’s new found security and rest they will only seek to corrupt themselves and find themselves hard against the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Almighty God and His Two Messengers. It will be also during this time that Israel (like it or not) will have the super natural protection of Almighty God’s Two Witnesses who - just coming off of 3000 years in the presence of Almighty God in glory - will possess Almighty God's Divine authority. These Two Men will be extremely more powerful than Satan’s anti - Christ and his global confederacies (Rev. 11:3-6). These Two will be ABSOLUTELY INVINCIBLE during their 1260 days of ministry!

"This revealing of the Anti-Christ and the commencement of this seven year tribulation period will begin when this man (i.e., the Anti-Christ) adds his position of great power and authority to a covenant with Israel on the behalf of Israel’s defeated enemies" ..During this time of ease for the nation Israel these Two Lamp Stands of Almighty God (Moses and Elijah) will preach salvation in Jesus Messiah, re- institute the temple, its sacrifices and its priesthood. They will preach repentance and testify to ALL in the earth that the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. These Two will then prepare the remnant of believing Jews and a chosen 144,000 Jewish men - from the 12 tribes of Israel - (Matt. 24:14, Rev. 7:4-8, 11:13) for their global ministry unto ALL nations of the earth and preach the Messiah’s glorious gospel and imminent return and Kingdom. It will be at this time -the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period - that the WORLD will seek any and every opportunity to root out and destroy these two Divinely appointed vessels of Almighty God... all to no avail (Mal. 4:4-6, Rev. 7,14:1-4,11:3-8). . It will be at this time - at the beginning of this seven year period, while Israel dwells in their land in absolute safety - that the WHOLE GENTILE WORLD will be catastrophically trodden down by the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Trumpet Judgments of Almighty God and the demonic host of destroyers (Rev. 6-9). These events along with their consequences - including the unopposed preaching of RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Two Witnesses of Almighty God (Mal. 4:4-6, John 3:19-21, Rev. 11:2-4,10) will only stir up the world’s exponential rage and hatred for Israel (Rev. 11:10).

"The Two Witnesses of Almighty God will only stir up the world’s exponential rage and hatred for Israel"

As these 3 ½ years go by, unbelieving Israel will now begin to feel the chastening hand of Almighty God via Gog and Magog (Ezek. 38-39), the global ravishing of Satan’s hatred and the world’s wrath (Rev. 11:8) and the Abomination of Desolation (Matt. 24:15-17, 2 Thess. 2:8-13, Rev 13). As the Second Woe comes near to completion, so also ends the mighty Two Witnesses of Almighty God’s ministry and their protective hand over Israel. As their 1260 days are now fully accomplished, the Anti Christ will NOW own the next remaining 3 ½ years or 1260 days or 42 months of this tribulation period (Rev. 11:3; 13:1-5). As he breaks his covenant with Israel (Dan 9:27), he will violently murder Almighty God’s Two Witnesses. It will be this momentous event (the murder of Almighty God’s Two Witnesses) that a long awaited god hating, anti-Semitic ravished world will then with all their wretched being rejoice exceedingly at the Anti Christ’s victory and confess unto all, “Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him” (Rev. 11:8-10,13)? This one event will solidify the world's allegiance to the beast, to Lucifer and institute the 666 global state.

As the godless and lawless world celebrates with exceeding godless joy, this rejoicing will be short lived. For at the end of 3 ½ days Almighty God’s Two Witnesses will then be resuscitation and ascension into Heaven in front of the world's masses and their newly reigning “ savior” (i.e., Anti Christ) (Matt. 24:15, Rev. 13:1-5). It will be at this moment that all of the air in their lawless bag will be let out. The world’s short lived exceeding joy and rejoicing will be instantly turned into exceeding terror and fear. As REALITY now totally permeates ALL of the world's godless inhabitants, their fear and dread will now turn to uncontrollable rage and they will now seek to go after Israel with ALL of their being. Any who call on the name of the Messiah of Israel will now be in their sights (Rev. 12:6, 12-17, 13, 17:11-14). This "time" (i.e., 42 months ) under the anti Christ has now FULLY begun which is called, “Great Tribulation" or "Jacob’s Trouble”. . "The world’s short lived exceeding joy and rejoicing will be instantly turned into exceeding terror and fear"

It will be now - with the rise of the Anti Christ as chief global autocratic and the establishment and institution of the Abomination of Desolation (Dan. 12, Zech. 11. Matt. 24:15, Rev. 11:1-2, 12:9-17, 13) that Israel’s’ security and safety will now be a thing of the past. No more will they dwell in safety and have the luxury to do as "they" please. For they will now be persecuted to a level unparalleled in the annals of history and suffer greatly under the hand of Lucifer and the godless nations of the world under the anti Christ (Isa. 24:5-6, Zech. 13:8-9, 14:2, Matt. 24:15-51, Rev. 12:9-17).

"The Messiah of Israel will come from Heaven's glory and destroy the armies of the anti Christ which have gathered against Israel and then He will establish His glorious Kingdom reign for a thousand years in Jerusalem"

It will be at the end of all of these events (seven years to the exact day from the strengthening of the covenant) that Almighty God’s Son, the Messiah of Israel will come from Heaven's glory and destroy the armies of the anti Christ which have gathered against Israel and then He will establish His glorious Kingdom reign for a thousand years in Jerusalem (Isa. 11:1-10, Micah 4:1-3, Zech 12:8-14, 13:1, 14:1-4, Rev. 1:7, 20:6). In these brief seven years, Israel will have come full circle. Finally, it will be during this time of great testing and horrific persecution by the gentile nations under the Anti Christ (Isa. 24:5-6, Zech. 13:8-9,12:9-7,13) that Israel will turn from their godless ways and receive their Messiah and Savior, the Lord Yeshua Messiah (Deut. 4:30, Isa.25:9, 45:17, Jer. 33:16, Zech. 12:8-14,13:1,9, Rom. 11:26). It will take the Divine judgment and the natural and super natural ravishing of planet earth and her godless inhabitants (Isa. 24:5-6, Matt. 24, Rev. 13) - which concludes with the final blood bath of the Battle of Armageddon (Zech. 12:2-4, 14:1-4, Rev. 16:13-16, Rev. 19:11-21) - to bring Israel to the place of repentance and deliverance (Isa. 25:9, Zech. 12:8-14, 13:1,9).

It will be the ravishing of Israel under the anti Christ,climaxing with the global bloodbath of Armageddon at Messiah's glorious return in which Jesus Messiah will obliterate the global armies of the Anti Christ which will finally bring about a TRUE and EVERLASTING PEACE to Jerusalem (the City of Peace), to the nation of Israel and to the world (Zech. 12:4,14:2-4, Rev. 19:11-21)!

"It will be the ravishing of Israel under the anti Christ, climaxing with the global bloodbath of Armageddon at Messiah's glorious return that will finally bring about a TRUE and EVERLASTING PEACE to Jerusalem (the City of Peace) and to the nation of Israel!"

What Israel and the nations have attempted for centuries and could NEVER achieve will finally be accomplished at Almighty God the Son’s second coming to earth (Psalm 2, 24:7-10, 110, Isa. 2:3, 9:6-7, 33:22, 51:5,61:1-11, Dan. 2:34-35, 44-45, 7:13-14, Micah 4:1-3, Zech. 14:16-21, Rev. 19:11-21)...

The TRUE Peace Comes to Jerusalem!

It will be ONLY by the Prince of Peace that TRUE and EVERLASTING PEACE will come to the City of Jerusalem (Isa. 9:6-7, 33:5, 53:5, 62;1, Jer. 33:16, Zech 8:3, Matt. 5:35, Rom. 10:2-4, Eph. 2:12-19, Col. 1:20, Heb. 1:3, 10:7-14). How many in vain through out the ages have sought and prayed in sincerity for the peace of Jerusalem WITHOUT knowledge nor understanding (Isa. 29:13, 58:1-8, Matt. 7:21-23, 15:3, 7-9, Mark 12:24)? Throughout the last 2600 years, how many sons of Abraham have totally missed the reality and truth of the Holy Scriptures of just how this Divine peace MUST be established (Deut. 9:6, 28-30,31:27, Lev. 26, Psalm 78, Isa. 53:5, Ezek. 12:2, Dan 9:26, Matt. 15:3-7-9, Luke 13:34-35, Acts 7, Rom. 9-11, Rev. 1:7)?

"Through out the last 2600 years, how many sons of Abraham have totally missed the reality and truth of the Holy Scriptures of just how this Divine peace MUST be established"

My dear friend, please try to comprehend that ALL current global events are indeed heading to this destination and EXPONENTIALLY beyond (Rev. 19:11-21)! Remember the words of the Lord Jesus in which He specifically told His disciples to pray, “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven (Matt. 6:9-10).” Oh my beloved! How many people pray this prayer day after day and are absolutely oblivious to what it is testifying to and stating! “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” .

It will indeed take the horrific seven year tribulation period to wake up the Jew and the gentile nations to this reality (Isa. 24:5-6, Rev. 6:14-17, 17:2).There is absolutely NO hope for Israel and the nations of the world apart for their Creator and Savior, Jesus Messiah (John 3:16-17, Eph. 2:12-16, Heb 1:2-3). It will NOT be until the Jew is reconciled with Jehovah God and receive their Messiah as their sacrificial lamb, propitiation and Savior that the nations WILL BE BLESSED (Isa. 2:1-4, 19:23-25, Micah 4:1-4, Zech. 8:23, Rom. 11:12) and TRUE DIVINE PEACE will go forth out of Jerusalem unto the entire world (Isa. 2:3-4,33:16, 62:1, Jer. 33:5)!

"It will NOT be until the Jew is reconciled with Jehovah God and receive their Messiah as their sacrificial lamb, propitiation and Savior that the nations WILL BE BLESSED and TRUE DIVINE PEACE will go forth out of Jerusalem unto the entire world"

My friend, do you have a saving relationship to Jesus Messiah the Savior of the world (Psalm 110:1, Isa. 43:11,52:13-15, 53)? All depends on this very union. His death, burial and resurrection to the Right Hand of Almighty God is the center piece of all ETERNITY (Gen. 22:8, Psalm 110:1, Isa. 53, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, Rev. 1:18,13:8, 21-22:1-5). He will indeed come back to establish His Kingdom on His earth and the gates of Hell shall not nor NEVER prevent this from happening (Dan. 2:44-45, 7:13-14, Rev. 1:7, 16:13-16, 19:11-21).

As the days grow nearer to the Day of the Lord be sure that you know the Savior and Messiah of Israel as dictated by the Holy Scriptures!

The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!


TOPICS: Current Events; History; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; freewill; gagdadbob; jerusalem; onecosmosblog; predestination; rapturehoax
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It will be the ravishing of Israel under the anti Christ, climaxing with the global bloodbath of Armageddon at Messiah's glorious return that will finally bring about a TRUE and EVERLASTING PEACE to Jerusalem (the City of Peace) and to the nation of Israel! Zech 13:8-13,Matt 24:15-16,
1 posted on 06/22/2011 7:24:07 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; ...

END TIMES, DREAMS, VISIONS, PROPHECY PING LIST

PING

. . . MORE VERY PLAUSIBLE AND BIBLICAL POINTS . . .

worth some prayerful pondering

Time will tell. I still do not think anyone has it all figured out . . . hindsight is soooooooo much clearer.

However, imho, this set of scenario’s is as good as any and better than many.


2 posted on 06/22/2011 8:17:12 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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bump


3 posted on 06/22/2011 8:29:07 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open ( <o> ---)
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To: Quix

Thanks for the ping!


4 posted on 06/22/2011 8:58:46 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Is that you, Reverend Caning?


5 posted on 06/22/2011 10:30:39 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (I retain the right to be inconsistent, contradictory and even flat-out wrong!)
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To: Quix; GiovannaNicoletta

Thank You Quix!, GiovannaNicoletta, I read this and did not find too many problems. Is this in line with your concept of coming events based on God’s Word?


6 posted on 06/23/2011 5:56:41 AM PDT by marbren
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To: Quix

Thanks for the ping Quix, this looks like a pretty detailed theory. I’ll have to go over it in detail and see if I agree or not, but at least he’s providing Scriptural support instead of just plucking ideas out of thin air.


7 posted on 06/23/2011 7:01:05 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
Is that you, Reverend Caning?

If you mean to mock someone, at least get the name right. This is not Harold Camping, this theory has nothing in common with Camping's theory and unlike most other theories out there, it seems to be based more on what is actually written rather than what was passed down to us over the centuries.

I looked over your profile and can see readily that you're not a troll and are quite conservative, at least on economic and most social matters, so as a fellow FReeper I would humbly request that you treat this thread and topic with respect. I don't ask that you accept it at face value, as I love debates on this material, but I do suggest not mocking someone without first researching their views and being able to provide a counter-view of your own as well.

8 posted on 06/23/2011 7:06:48 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: paladin1_dcs; Alamo-Girl; betty boop

Thank you for your polite response. I feared Caning was not right but I was too lazy to check it out. Regardless, I am always amused by the modern day Nostradamuses who read the Biblical tea leaves, do their own calculations, as many others have, and determine they know the timing of God’s plan. This despite Jesus saying no one would know the hour of God’s return, that it would come suddenly and unexpectedly. To me, that trumps anything in Revelations.

The recent embarrassment by Rev. Camping was simply a reference point.

If you would like to know my religious views there are many exchanges from the past with Alamo Girl and Betty Boop that will reveal them if you care to go to the trouble.


9 posted on 06/23/2011 8:08:19 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (I retain the right to be inconsistent, contradictory and even flat-out wrong!)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
The recent embarrassment by Rev. Camping was simply a reference point.

I completely understand that, but it is also a topic that has been transformed into a lightening rod for Religion Trolls so I'm a little wary of anyone who makes the connection to Camping's foolishness.

Regardless, I am always amused by the modern day Nostradamuses who read the Biblical tea leaves, do their own calculations, as many others have, and determine they know the timing of God’s plan. This despite Jesus saying no one would know the hour of God’s return, that it would come suddenly and unexpectedly. To me, that trumps anything in Revelations.

I understand and fully agree that Christ Himself said that no man would know the day and hour of His return, but His return and the Great Tribulation are two different events. One thing that I would ask, however, is that since many of the Scriptures located within the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ are by Christ Himself, how do you square that with what you stated? If Christ Himself attested to Revelation's accuracy, which He did in Revelation 22:16-19, how can He also contradict it? Here's the verses I just made mention of in reference.

[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. [17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. [18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. - Rev 22:16-19 KJV

I think it's pretty clear that not only is the Book of Revelation equal with the other books in Canon, it also comes with it's own promise of retribution towards those who would add to or remove from it, which is not something that is done with the other Books of the Bible. It seems pretty clear that Christ deems this Book's inerrancy to be a critical detail for Believers to understand, so if that's the case why do you hold the idea that it is somehow less inspired than the others? Something isn't tracking here, but maybe you have a nuanced approach to this that I am not aware of as yet.

10 posted on 06/23/2011 8:40:57 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
"They will obliterate and wipe out their border enemies unto the point that they will achieve finally complete safety and security (Ezek. 38:8, 11-12). Israel will bring about their “own” peace and the world at that time will be forced to recognize it. It will be after this time that a man from Europe will broker a deal and lend his might to a covenant (peace treaty) on behalf of Israel’s greatly defeated enemies. This European leader will enter into a seven year covenant with Israel not from a position of dominance but rather from a position of weakness (Dan. 9:27, Rev. 6:2)."

I've always been under the opposite impression that it would be Israel's last chance for survival that they sign 'peace' treaties with their enemies, a view that never quite made sense to me (if their enemies had sworn to wipe them from earth, why would the enemies agree to any treaty at all with what's left of Israel? Why wouldn't they just go ahead and finish them off?)

Interesting view presented above - one that I'd never considered, and it does seem to make more sense to me. With Israel becoming dominant, it would be their enemies that feel the need for a treaty.

11 posted on 06/23/2011 8:47:38 AM PDT by pigsmith
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To: paladin1_dcs

I am not a Biblical scholar or even that well versed in it. In my teens, 55-60 years ago, I was a daily and avid reader of the New Testament. I considered the Old Testament to be simply a history of the Jews and the New Covenant with God to have replaced what came before. I started reading the Old Testament and think that the story of Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden are the basis for understanding Christianity. However, I soon got lost in all the “begat”s and moved on. Still, through church attendance I absorbed a fair amount of the gospel in the OT.

I thought Daniel must either be on peyote or truly in communication with God with his dream interpretations. His readings were really off the wall but turned out to be correct.

Yet, concerning this thread and Israel, wasn’t Israel in this very same situation in 1949, 1967, and 1973? Why does the present circumstance all of a sudden become the omen for the Rapture and the Tribulation? As with Camping, there have been other similar “omens” that proved wrong.

Doesn’t this run the risk of being afoul of Jesus’ warning about adding to or taking from the scripture?


12 posted on 06/23/2011 10:38:11 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (I retain the right to be inconsistent, contradictory and even flat-out wrong!)
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To: paladin1_dcs; Mind-numbed Robot; The Ignorant Fisherman; Alamo-Girl
I think it's pretty clear that not only is the Book of Revelation equal with the other books in Canon, it also comes with it's own promise of retribution towards those who would add to or remove from it, which is not something that is done with the other Books of the Bible. It seems pretty clear that Christ deems this Book's inerrancy to be a critical detail for Believers to understand....

Seems so to me, too, paladin1_dcs.

And yet I also see the sense of Mind-numbed Robot's observation:

...I am always amused by the modern day Nostradamuses who read the Biblical tea leaves, do their own calculations, as many others have, and determine they know the timing of God’s plan. This despite Jesus saying no one would know the hour of God’s return, that it would come suddenly and unexpectedly. To me, that trumps anything in Revelations.

Indeed, Christ says that no one knows the timing of His return, not even the Son, but only the Father. So I'm a little bemused when people pore over the scriptures in order to make accurate descriptions of the future, i.e., the End Times. As if we had any idea of what time even is, from God's perspective, Who is not in time.

Modern man seems to have a mania for analyses of this type. He seems to have forgotten that "we see as if through a glass, darkly." Our modern analytical methods can never remove that condition, nor compensate for it in any way. We crave certainty, but cannot have it.

Having said that, I very much admire the account titled "How the Peace of Jerusalem Will Be Established." It is a cogent story, well-grounded in citation of the prophets and the gospel accounts. It also seems well supported by breaking events in the Middle East/Arab world....

Do some people think the Book of Revelation is NOT equal with the other books in the Canon? I wonder why they would think that.

It seems to me the Book of Revelation is the capstone of the entire biblical revelation from first to last (Alpha to Omega), the final cause that draws all of biblical history, OT and NT, unto itself.

So I guess there is a sense in which it could be said that Revelation is "not equal" with the other books of Holy Scripture. Moreover, in it Christ personally guarantees its inerrancy — and as you point out, paladin1_dcs, this is the only book of the Holy Canon in which this happens.

Thank you all for this fascinating discussion!

13 posted on 06/23/2011 11:18:03 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through, the eye. — William Blake)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Thank you so much for posting this excellent article, The Ignorant Fisherman!


14 posted on 06/23/2011 11:19:00 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through, the eye. — William Blake)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
Doesn’t this run the risk of being afoul of Jesus’ warning about adding to or taking from the scripture?

I absolutely agree that we must be vigilant in our defense of Scripture, that we are to never add to it nor delete portions of it for our own comfort. However, that being said, I must point out some details in Scripture which speak to the situation now as possibly leading up to the events of Revelation.

First, to show what the differences are between the current situation in Israel and the situation in 1949, 1967 and 1973, you must understand that one of the biggest prophecies of all is concerning Jerusalem's rise as the primary focus of the whole world. That Prophecy, found in Zechariah 12, has to date never been fulfilled. I've included it here for reference.

[2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. [3] And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.- Zec 12:2-3 KJV

If you'll notice the portion I highlighted, the very first thing you notice is that the people all around Israel will lay siege to both Israel and Jerusalem. While this has happened in the past, the results of that siege have never happened before. The portion that reads "...all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces," means, literally, that those nations who attempt to besiege Jerusalem will be torn to shreds. The Hebrew word used here, sarat, means to literally lacerate or be torn to pieces.

Furthermore, you'll notice that this siege is not just Israel, but Jerusalem as well. To answer your earlier question about why this situation is different, just ask yourself this.

Who completely controlled Jerusalem during the 1949 War of Independence and the 1967 Six Day War? It wasn't Israel. Israel only captured part of Jerusalem during the 1949 war and only captured the remaining portions at the conclusion of the 1967 war.

Furthermore, while Israel controlled all of Jerusalem during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Jerusalem was never surrounded and besieged.

So, now that we've established that the events of Zechariah 12 have not taken place and events now are beginning to align to allow it to finally take place, you can see why we are watching these events with growing excitement. While we cannot know the day or hour, we can know from watching and reading carefully that we're very, very close now.

15 posted on 06/23/2011 12:12:34 PM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: paladin1_dcs
That's a very valid assessment of what is known as 'the time of Jacob's Troubles'. What's staggering is recognition of what was going on at the time of that prophecy: nothing; there were tumbleweeds blowing through Jerusalem.

That Jerusalem is presently a 'burdensom stone' at present is beyond reproach; nobody can deny that WWIII can erupt out of Jerusalem over the course of any arbitrary hour from now until whenever.

Every eye in the world casts a very wary glance towards Jerusalem each and every day.

16 posted on 06/23/2011 12:22:48 PM PDT by raygun (http://bastiat.org/en/the_law DOT html)
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To: betty boop
Indeed, Christ says that no one knows the timing of His return, not even the Son, but only the Father. So I'm a little bemused when people pore over the scriptures in order to make accurate descriptions of the future, i.e., the End Times. As if we had any idea of what time even is, from God's perspective, Who is not in time.

I absolutely agree that we will not know the day or hour of His return, however, we are told to watch for His return and we're told that we will know it's growing close due to how current events will unfold. Christ mentioned this in His parable of the Fig Tree, stating that when the tree blooms, the time of the harvest is near, meaning that the time for Christ to come for His Bride is close. This is not to say that we can know the day and hour, just that we will be able to discern the general season.

Also, I would also like to point out that you raise a very, very good point in regards to the fact that God is not subject to time. I suspect, due to clues provided in Scripture stating that God knows the end from the beginning, that Time, as we know it, is actually not only finite but already completed as well. From our point of view, Time is still progressing, but from God's point of view not only does it have a beginning and an ending, it has already ended and we, presently, are merely playing out our parts in it. This theory would seem to fit with the paradoxical Scriptures which seems to state that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, yet the dead in Christ rise again in the resurrection at His second coming.

It would also neatly fix the perception issue we have of free-will versus election and a few other, interesting ideas that have come out of quantum mechanics. All in all, it's an incredibly interesting subject that I'm looking forward to understanding more once this mortal finally puts on immortality and I'm given my resurrected body and all knowledge is finally made known to us.

17 posted on 06/23/2011 2:09:15 PM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: betty boop

God Bless and thank you. TGBTG!


18 posted on 06/23/2011 2:14:40 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: pigsmith

My friend the more I studied this I saw that the other position did not fit. As a matter of fact one had to force fit it. When looked in this light it all sings.

Ezek 38-39 and Rev 11:2-4 are the keys.

Thanks for your reply!

David


19 posted on 06/23/2011 2:17:58 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: paladin1_dcs
LOL!!! My thoughts exactly... this one didn't even deserve a response.

Thanks for getting my back!

I.F.

20 posted on 06/23/2011 2:24:39 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: marbren
Based on my understanding of the prophetic Scriptures, this appears to be Biblically sound, but then again The Ignorant Fisherman is very well versed in the Scriptures :).

The only thing I would have a question about is the timing of the confirming of the seven year "peace" covenant. I have always believed that the Antichrist doesn't come on the scene until after the Ezekiel war because that would seem to be the perfect stage for the Beast to come to the rescue and install world peace once and for all. I also believe that the seven-year covenant will allow the Jews to rebuild their temple.

However, the second seal that Christ opens is war, which happens after the seal unleashing the Antichrist is opened and he is seen as a messianic hero. It could be that the Ezekiel war takes place shortly after the Antichrist makes his appearance, which would allow the Antichrist to take advantage of the horrific aftermath of this war, and could be the time when he brings about the seven-year treaty between Israel, the nations, and himself.

If the "war" in the second seal is indeed the Ezekiel war, then it will happen right before the Tribulation begins. As the official start of the Tribulation is the time when the Antichrist confirms the seven-year pact with Israel, and since Ezekiel tells us that Israel will be burning the weapons of that war for seven years, then the Ezekiel prophecy has to happen right before the Tribulation.

21 posted on 06/23/2011 3:15:39 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking...." (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman; Alamo-Girl; stfassisi; Diamond; xzins; Mind-numbed Robot; metmom; ...
Dear The Ignorant Fisherman, I thought your article was exceptionally well conceived and expressed — meaning full of God's Grace and Truth, mediated by His Holy Spirit. You translate the meaning of Revelation to us, in your inspired words. You make no "prediction" as to the future.

Thank you from my heart on both scores!

To God be all Glory, all Thanks and Praise!

22 posted on 06/23/2011 3:23:20 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through, the eye. — William Blake)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Thank You GiovannaNicoletta


23 posted on 06/23/2011 4:51:13 PM PDT by marbren
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
Forgive me but I got a nice chuckle out of this sentence: "His (Daniel's) readings were really off the wall but turned out to be correct."

Indeed, as we see in Chapter Five of Daniel, he was literally reading 'off the wall' to help Belshazzar! Which brings to mind an association to something offered later in this thread, regarding the nature of time. I believe the one Who wrote upon the wall at palace party central reached from a where/when with a different nature of time, 'into' the reality of King Belshazzar who perceived time in a different nature of time.

In life we now live we perceive of the effect of time as if it is linear, running from past to present to future. we may conjecture (rightly I believe) that God perceives dimension time from outside of it, as if viewing a volume. The many settings described in prophetic writings from the Bible may in fact be so strange to our comprehension because we do not conceive of the temporal nature as linear AND planar AND volumetric. To say time ends or our linear time ends, may be incorrect. Time as we perceieve it may be changed in the twinkling of an eye to be perceived as a planar dimensional influence, thus tapping into actualities which we cannot now perceive in linear temporal mode.

I'll leave it at that. Perhaps some will make an effort to imagine what reality might be like (our perception of reality, of what is truth) if we perceive time in a planar orientation instead of a linear orientation. Whomever wrote upon the wall in Daniel 5 had a different orientation to time, you may be absolutely certain of that, since The One reaching into Belshazzar's where/when wrote absolutely of things yet to be perceived by the king. Whomever wrote perceive the Kings present while having access to the king's future, also.

24 posted on 06/23/2011 5:21:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: betty boop

BB,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragment!

God speed!

Eph 5:16-17!

TGBTG!!

I.F.


25 posted on 06/23/2011 5:48:25 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
If you would like to know my religious views there are many exchanges from the past with Alamo Girl and Betty Boop that will reveal them if you care to go to the trouble.

Indeed, dear brother in Christ, you have shared your testimony in several beautiful essay posts!

26 posted on 06/23/2011 8:50:05 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix

Prior to the UN meeting in September, Obama, the global community organizer and his friends, Western radicals and jihadists, are going to invade Israel by sea (floatillas) and accross the Egyptian border on foot.

Israel will have to surrender their borders to these “protestors” or stop them with military force. The Muslims will use the Western media and White House and European leaders to hysterically and hatefully denounce Israel’s killing of “protestors” and they will demonize Bibi in the same vien they did to Kadafi.

There will be calls for a new leader of Israel who will sign the “peace” agreement dividing Israel and threats of Nato military invasion by UN decree. In this spirit, the UN will vote to establish the Palenstian State with the 67 borders. It will be peacefully accepted by Israel via the leader replacing Bibi in exchange for UN or Nato military security. NATO will take out Syria’s leadership (Hizzbulah will survive and the Muslim Brotherhood will rule like in all the other nations overthrown) and invade Israel’s current terrorties to clear out Jewish settlers and enforce “peace.” There will be no fly zones established and the Jews located in Palenstian land will be forcefully cleared out and harmed by Muslim and western radical armies. The Jews in the settlements will resist and they will be killed and it won’t be televised just like the Muslim Brotherhood’s slaughter of Christians in Egypt is not being televised. Obama will use our military as he deems against Syria and Israel and not go through Congress as he has gotten away with as a test in Libya.

This is not so much prophecy as it is facts I see on the ground from what I know of radical strategies and plans in Obama’s government and among protest leaders.

The US is already suffering the punishment of God for having a Muslim leader who is totally against Israel and hatching plans to divide the nation. In fact, if Obama puts up that “peace” agreement, he might be the Anti Christ...

If Congress puts teeth in it’s show of anger over libya and whacks Obama, cutting off his funding for that war, it might wreck his plans to make more war in the Middle East to force the UN peace agreement on Israel. But I think nothing will phase him short of impeachment. With the Senate, that will not happen. He is on a mission from his god. But so are we and so we must pray and work against this plan of Obama’s (and the globalists who bought him).

In the aftermath, the US will crash economically and suffer through horrific disasters and even famine, and these folks will be celebrating the demise of the US and Israel.

And then, when peace and security is claimed, war will come in an effort to finish off the Jews and the US military peace enforcement troops.

A new US leader won’t be able to stop what Obama has done even if we are successful in removing him from office in 2012. Many, many Americans, Europeans and the Muslims of the world will cheer and love Obama for this defeat of Israel in the name of peace and security. It might help him get re-elected.

It is real important to prepare, as you know. The shtf beginning this summer with “protestor” invasions, then the UN meeting to establish the 67 Palestienian state, the removal of Bibi and UN military invasion of Israel to clear out the settlers and keep Israel’s military from acting to protect the settlers. All these armies called the UN peace keepers will end up in a war against Israel as Iran and Egyptian muslims make their move to wipe out the Jews. We should watch what Canada does as so far they have rejected Obama’s horrific demands upon Israel. That might be a safe place to go if Canada continues to reject Obama through the Summer and Fall.


27 posted on 06/23/2011 8:54:34 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: paladin1_dcs; betty boop; Mind-numbed Robot
Thank you for sharing your testimony and insights, dear paladin_dcs!

If Christ Himself attested to Revelation's accuracy, which He did in Revelation 22:16-19, how can He also contradict it?

Indeed. Revelation also contains a blessing for those who read it and keep it:

Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand. - Revelation 1:3

God's Name is Alpha and Omega.

28 posted on 06/23/2011 8:59:28 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; paladin1_dcs; Mind-numbed Robot; The Ignorant Fisherman
Having said that, I very much admire the account titled "How the Peace of Jerusalem Will Be Established." It is a cogent story, well-grounded in citation of the prophets and the gospel accounts. It also seems well supported by breaking events in the Middle East/Arab world....

I strongly agree, dearest sister in Christ!

We crave certainty, but cannot have it.

Oh so very true. Like parables, prophecy must be spiritually discerned.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:14

Indeed, that is true of all Scripture:

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. - Matthew 22:29

God's Name is I AM.

29 posted on 06/23/2011 9:13:31 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: paladin1_dcs; Mind-numbed Robot

You wrote: “I love debates on this material, but I do suggest not mocking someone without first researching their views and being able to provide a counter-view of your own as well.”

You called?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=100#100
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=102#102
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=125#125
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=132#132
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=133#133
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=140#140
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=147#147
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=148#148
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=151#151
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=152#152
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=162#162
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=186#186
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=191#191
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=204#204
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=210#210
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=216#216
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=218#218
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=220#220
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=224#224
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=226#226
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=227#227
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=232#232
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=241#241
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=242#242
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=275#275
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=278#278
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=282#282
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=283#283
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=289#289
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=327#327
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=337#337
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=341#341
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=343#343
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=346#346
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=349#349
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2716739/posts?page=351#351


30 posted on 06/24/2011 6:32:34 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: betty boop
"It seems to me the Book of Revelation is the capstone of the entire biblical revelation from first to last (Alpha to Omega), the final cause that draws all of biblical history, OT and NT, unto itself."

I agree. bttt

31 posted on 06/24/2011 6:39:24 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: paladin1_dcs
"Time is still progressing, but from God's point of view not only does it have a beginning and an ending, it has already ended and we, presently, are merely playing out our parts in it. This theory would seem to fit with the paradoxical Scriptures which seems to state that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, yet the dead in Christ rise again in the resurrection at His second coming. It would also neatly fix the perception issue we have of free-will versus election and a few other, interesting ideas that have come out of quantum mechanics.."

Since God says he knows the end from the beginning, and is outside of time, he already knows who, out of his won free-will decision, has rejected him. He already knows who are his elect.

32 posted on 06/24/2011 6:47:54 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
"Ezek 38-39 and Rev 11:2-4 are the keys."

Ah, yes.... if we can only find "The Keys", which unlocks “the secret”.

You are merely one, in a long ling of others, that have claimed to have found it! Praise the lord!

33 posted on 06/24/2011 6:58:51 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: Matchett-PI; Mind-numbed Robot

And your point is? Yes, I’m human and do get hot under the collar, so what’s your excuse? After all, what have you done to add to this thread, other than point fingers? Here’s an idea, how about you either add something positive or at least useful or are you just here to stir up trouble?


34 posted on 06/24/2011 7:33:50 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: Matchett-PI; Mind-numbed Robot
Well that will teach me to not pay attention. Got to admit that I jumped the gun, but even after looking at your links you posted, I still think you are jumping the gun with trying to link that idiot Camping with Dispensational Theory. Camping isn't a Dispy, much less a Pre-Trib Dispy. I think I heard that he was an Amil, but honestly I think he was just out to lunch in general.

Anyway, again, I apologize for jumping the gun and assuming that you were just trolling. It wasn't called for and I should have stopped and reconsidered what I wrote before I posted it.

35 posted on 06/24/2011 7:40:59 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: paladin1_dcs
You wrote: "And your point is? ... Here’s an idea, how about you either add something positive or at least useful.."

You previously wrote: I love debates on this material, but I do suggest not mocking someone without first researching their views and being able to provide a counter-view of your own as well.”

My point in post #30? I was merely linking you to what you said you loved and "providing" you with the counter-view you indicated that you wanted. If you don't deem it "useful" or "positive", you may ignore it if you like. :)

36 posted on 06/24/2011 7:50:58 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: paladin1_dcs
"Anyway, again, I apologize for jumping the gun and assuming that you were just trolling."

No problem ...apology accepted!

37 posted on 06/24/2011 7:53:11 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: Matchett-PI; Mind-numbed Robot
After looking through your list of posts now, I have to admit that you provide a great deal of research into the early Church to provide your support, quoting several Church Elders from as early as the 2nd Century. The one thing that I didn't see, however, was one shred of evidence from you which shows your position being supported by Scripture. The vast majority of your posts, although detailed and well researched, are either entirely or almost entirely void of Scriptural support for your arguments, instead leaning on Church tradition and Church Fathers and Elders.

I'm sorry, but no matter what I think of those Fathers and Elders, they don't hold the same weight as Scripture does. They may have studied at the feet of the Apostles, but they are not the Apostles and their words are not guaranteed to be either infallible or even remotely correct. Now, if their teachings match up with Scripture, then yes we can accept it, but if they don't then I don't care if they learned from John or James or who, they're still wrong.

So I ask you, what support from Scripture do you submit that your theory of Amillennialsim is correct and the doctrine of a literal, Millennial reign of Christ on Earth is not correct?

38 posted on 06/24/2011 7:58:35 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: Matchett-PI
Since God says he knows the end from the beginning, and is outside of time, he already knows who, out of his won free-will decision, has rejected him. He already knows who are his elect.

I couldn't agree more. I don't know if this means I'm a Predestined Freewill Baptist or a Freewill Predestined Baptist, but it works. It does make me wonder if sometimes God just laughs and shakes His head at our attempts to puzzle out things like this.

39 posted on 06/24/2011 8:14:19 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: paladin1_dcs
"After looking through your list of posts now....The one thing that I didn't see, however, was one shred of evidence from you which shows your position being supported by Scripture. The vast majority of your posts, although detailed and well researched, are either entirely or almost entirely void of Scriptural support for your arguments... So I ask you, what support from Scripture do you submit that your theory of Amillennialsim is correct and the doctrine of a literal, Millennial reign of Christ on Earth is not correct? ..."

WOW! You're a REALLY fast reader! The Scriptural support I provided at my links in #30 above (including the subject of Amillennialism) is exhaustive, and would take most people the better part of a year to get through it all.

Most of the questions you could come up with here about "Scriptural support", are already dealt with at those links, so I would point you back to a "careful reading" of them.

Oh, and here's another little tid-bit you might find "interesting". Or not. :)

40 posted on 06/24/2011 8:19:13 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: Matchett-PI; marbren
WOW! You're a REALLY fast reader! The Scriptural support I provided at my links in #30 above (including the subject of Amillennialism) is exhaustive, and would take most people the better part of a year to get through it all.

Well to be honest, once I realized that you were simply posting your replies to a debate that you held with marbren, I simply stayed on that thread and finished reading the debate. What I found was that you rely more upon what the Early Church Fathers say than what Scripture says and, frankly, the sources you're using aren't exactly unbiased.

Take post #147 on that thread for example. In it, you try to provide support for your idea that Cerinthus was labeled a heretic for preaching a literal Millennial reign of Christ, yet all you do is set up a straw man argument. Here's a quote from that post.

As before stated, Cerinthus was the first to attempt to introduce this doctrine under Christianity. Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:
"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."
This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. The reader will observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was "something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels." Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.

Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. We will now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher. Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John, [Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within." (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28). Let this be a rebuke to modern Millennial advocates. They claim their doctrine is well founded in the Apocalypse of John. But John called the founder of their theory "that enemy of the truth."

I would point out a few things here. Caius is disagreeing with Cerinthus over the idea that Believers will again be subject to desires and pleasures of the flesh. That, not the idea of a Millennium, is the heresy. Furthermore, Caius hammers away again at this same idea because he points out that Cerinthus believes that the 1000 years are for marriage festivities. That, not the Millennium itself, is the heresy.

Then, to make matters worse, you inject your own theology into the writings by stating

"Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming."

No where can you draw the conclusion that orthodox teaching states that Christ's Kingdom was set up at His first coming from what is written here. You assume that to be the case, but you do not show proof.

Furthermore, you attempt to link an apocryphal quote attributed to John by Eusebius as not only being true, but also being in relation to Millennial beliefs. No evidence exists that John made this remark, no evidence exists that John regarded Millennial belief as heretical and no evidence exists to show that Cerinthus' heresy was related to the Millennium rather than to his Gnostic beliefs.

In short, you have provided no evidence to support your claim that Millennial beliefs are heretical, yet you persist in claiming that they are heresy.

So I ask you, who's being deceitful here? Millennial beliefs are based upon interpretation of Scripture by other Scripture. Your accusations against it are based upon apocryphal quotes from John, quotes from Church Fathers taken out of context and disinformation. My question would be, why are you so opposed to Millennial beliefs?

41 posted on 06/24/2011 8:53:52 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: Matchett-PI
Oh, and here's another little tid-bit you might find "interesting". Or not. :)

One other thing, the link you provided contained a link which you used to support your allegations. As that post is from 2005, the imbedded link is broken and I'm getting a 404 error from the Dave MacPherson article. As you were using that as a portion of your attack on the Pseudo-Ephraem document, claiming that there was a conspiracy to cover up the truth, I thought it would be best if you could provide a working link so I can examine it for myself. Without it, I cannot either accept or reject the quote you provided.

42 posted on 06/24/2011 9:01:23 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: paladin1_dcs
I wrote: "Since God says he knows the end from the beginning, and is outside of time, he already knows who, out of his won free-will decision, has rejected him. He already knows who are his elect."

You replied: "I couldn't agree more. I don't know if this means I'm a Predestined Freewill Baptist or a Freewill Predestined Baptist, but it works..."

Yes. Those who have a problem with the idea of "predestination" don't understand the fact that God has given everyone libertarian free-will and would in no way stop anyone from choosing or rejecting him. Of course there are extremists who attempt to say that he does, and that he "predestines people to hell", as if people haven't already chosen to go there, themselves.

"With regard to history, it cannot be reduced to anything less complex than itself. It cannot be comprehended from "within," but this is not to say that it cannot be comprehended. But the only way to do so is to escape "upward" and understand the metaphysical principles of which it is an instantiation. History is derivative -- an unpleasant "side effect" -- of vertical principles that play out in unpredictable ways in the herebelow. In fact, this is how we balance free will and predestination, as the large contours are fixed, even while we are given more than enough rope to hang ourselves down here."~ Gagdad Bob

43 posted on 06/24/2011 9:06:54 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: paladin1_dcs
"..it would be best if you could provide a working link so I can examine it for myself. Without it, I cannot either accept or reject the quote you provided.

Google is your friend :)

44 posted on 06/24/2011 9:15:01 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: paladin1_dcs
"...I would point out a few things here. Caius is disagreeing with Cerinthus over the idea that Believers will again be subject to desires and pleasures of the flesh. That, not the idea of a Millennium, is the heresy. ..."

Really?

"Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:

"....And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."

45 posted on 06/24/2011 9:21:46 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: Matchett-PI
Google is your friend :)

Normally yes, but I don't like to try to Google up quotes in a situation like this. There's too much information out there, on both sides, for me to make the assumption that I've retrieved the correct article.

Anyway, I'll begin reviewing the links again and see what I think.

46 posted on 06/24/2011 9:30:11 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: Matchett-PI
Again, you skipped right over what the heresy was and tried to tie it to something else.

"....And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."

The idea that the Millennium is for physical pleasure is a Gnostic idea. That is the heresy, not the idea of a Millennium itself. The idea of a Millennium is found in Scripture in Revelation 20. The idea of it being for physical pleasure is explicitly against Scripture. That, not the Millennium itself, is the heresy.

47 posted on 06/24/2011 9:35:32 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: paladin1_dcs
"So I ask you, who's being deceitful here? Millennial beliefs are based upon interpretation of Scripture by other Scripture.

Deceitful?

Scofield's "Notes" aren't Scripture.

Again, all the "Scriptual" and historical references (that back them up) to just about any of the questions you could come up with are contained in my links in #30 above.

Also Here

48 posted on 06/24/2011 10:02:27 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: paladin1_dcs

:)


49 posted on 06/24/2011 10:04:03 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: paladin1_dcs; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Matchett-PI

Paladin, I withdrew from this thread because I quickly realized I was over my head. I invited Alamo Girl and betty boop, here because I knew they could better appreciate it and make positive contributions.

In my youth my Bible reading was pretty much confined to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, thinking getting as close to what Jesus actually said and did had the greatest validity. I figured, and still do, that if I learn and follow the instructions and examples in those books, take Jesus and the Holy Spirit into my life, therefore being saved by the Grace of God, seek God’s will for my life, then prophecy and the happenings in the future are unimportant. I blissfully allow God to take care of those things. I care not when He comes because I know he is. When is his business.

As a result, I am amused by the efforts to read the tea leaves and solve the puzzle. Who cares?


50 posted on 06/24/2011 10:06:52 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (I retain the right to be inconsistent, contradictory and even flat-out wrong!)
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