Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

200 Methodist clergy in Illinois defy church on same-sex unions
Chicago Tribune ^ | 26 6 2011 | Manya Brachear

Posted on 06/26/2011 2:59:58 PM PDT by Cronos

More than 200 United Methodist clergy in Illinois have pledged to flout church policy and bless unions for same-sex couples, putting their jobs, homes and callings in jeopardy if couples take advantage of their offer.

Methodists in the Northern Illinois Conference also called on the global church to impose no more than a 24-hour suspension for clergy who defy the policy.

Elders, deacons and pastors took their stand after civil unions in Illinois became legal this month. But they said their determination to support same-sex unions has been fueled further by a church trial last week in which a jury found a Wisconsin pastor guilty of performing a holy union for a lesbian couple, suspending her for 20 days.

"Unfortunately the church has lost its prophetic voice on this issue," said the Rev. Gregory Gross, a deacon who organized the campaign. "Our civil society has taken the lead. Now the church is trying to catch up."

(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: christianapostasy; gaymafia; homosexualagenda; illinois; methodist; pinkattack; religiousleft; umc
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-55 next last
What is wrong with these 200 morons? (apologies to my Methodist friends for using such language)
1 posted on 06/26/2011 3:00:05 PM PDT by Cronos
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Cronos

Well, I am a Methodist. And I want these guys booted out. It won’t happen though.


2 posted on 06/26/2011 3:01:23 PM PDT by Lysandru
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

“putting their jobs, homes and callings in jeopardy if couples take advantage of their offer.”

They should be more worried about their souls.


3 posted on 06/26/2011 3:01:32 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xzins
xz -- who is this nut? Rev. Gregory Gross, a deacon who organized the campaign. "Our civil society has taken the lead. Now the church is trying to catch up."

I just can't fathom what is going through the minds of these guys.

4 posted on 06/26/2011 3:01:32 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

Trying to catch up to the world eh...wide road indeed.


5 posted on 06/26/2011 3:03:21 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
What is wrong with these 200 morons? (apologies to my Methodist friends for using such language)

They are possessed by the spirit of the age and not by the Spirit of God. I know of one Methodist minister who finally admitted to his parishioners that he didn't even believe in God but thought that becoming a minister would make it easier for him to implement his social agenda. This was the Methodist minister in the Chicago area who, a few years ago, made news by performing a gay marriage ceremony. I know of four or five families who left this church.
6 posted on 06/26/2011 3:06:22 PM PDT by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lysandru; driftdiver; xzins; Salvation; Mad Dawg
I've said it before and will say it again -- it shouldn't be just you conservative Methodists standing up to protect your church from these pinkos. All us conservative Christians -- all of us whether Methodists or Lutheran or Baptist or Catholic or Pentecostal etc. are on the same side in this and we stand together.

These guys are not just attacking the Methodists, they're doing the same in each denomination -- we'd be kidding ourselves if we think there is not a movement across denominations to undermine various Christians churches.

We stand together or we fall.

7 posted on 06/26/2011 3:08:02 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

Wasn’t one of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation the departure of the Catholic Church from the teachings of the Bible?


8 posted on 06/26/2011 3:09:06 PM PDT by Jacquerie (Cloward-Piven. Flash Mobs. Peoria. Acorn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

I will give you a line from the movie SEASON OF THE WITCH with Nic Cage...

‘I didn’t defy God but I defy the church”


9 posted on 06/26/2011 3:10:59 PM PDT by max americana (FUBO NATION 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: aruanan
one Methodist minister who finally admitted to his parishioners that he didn't even believe in God but thought that becoming a minister would make it easier for him to implement his social agenda.

That guy ought to be run out.

10 posted on 06/26/2011 3:12:09 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
"Our civil society has taken the lead. Now the church is trying to catch up."

Trying to make the church out a follower instead of a leader I see.

11 posted on 06/26/2011 3:12:42 PM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, question everyone else)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

They should start their own coven, uhh, “church”.


12 posted on 06/26/2011 3:12:50 PM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
The Methodist Church has been on this course for 50+ years.

I was about 20 when the pastor started preaching about banning all guns and then supported a fund raiser to build a Viet Cong field hospital. I left in the middle of the sermon.

13 posted on 06/26/2011 3:12:54 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, A Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: max americana
"I didn’t defy God but I defy the church”

Well isn't that special. And when everyone can just randomly pick portions of the Scriptures to use as the basis for whatever sort of Got they want, why would you even consider not defying the church?

14 posted on 06/26/2011 3:14:25 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: aruanan

I’ve had discussions with pastors about guys like this. A large percentage of pastors don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God. He told me one survey indicated it was around 70%.

There was a movement in the Unitarian Church a few years ago to modify their services. They were seeking to address complaints about there being too much discussion of God.


15 posted on 06/26/2011 3:16:25 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

> one Methodist minister who finally admitted to his
> parishioners that he didn’t even believe in God but
> thought that becoming a minister would make it easier for
> him to implement his social agenda.

LOL!!!

That explains a LOT about a LOT of denominations, INCLUDING Catholic (e.g. Pfleger).


16 posted on 06/26/2011 3:17:45 PM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

As a Methodist myself, these clergymen are evil personified. If it were my minister, I’d go directly to the pulpit and slap the snot out of these vermin, who are a disgrace to humanity and all that is Holy.


17 posted on 06/26/2011 3:18:26 PM PDT by greene66
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: driftdiver

Yeah, so much for the church being apart from the shifting sands of the world.


18 posted on 06/26/2011 3:19:18 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: driftdiver
There was a movement in the Unitarian Church a few years ago to modify their services. They were seeking to address complaints about there being too much discussion of God.

Errr... you aren't unitarian are you? I've stopped considering them Christian.

19 posted on 06/26/2011 3:20:50 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
All the other mainline protestants have abandoned scripture. The Methodists have held out on this front, but will now be undermined from within. Discipline will crumble, as the church cannot afford to enforce its own rules across the board.
20 posted on 06/26/2011 3:21:02 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All

Please read their “Book of Resolutions”.. it reads like the Communist Manifesto.


21 posted on 06/26/2011 3:21:51 PM PDT by newnhdad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

I cannot agree more. This is part of an assault upon the whole body of the church and no denomination is safe. The goal is to corrupt the whole church whether Protestant, or Catholic, or Orthodox. You are quite correct when you say that we stand together or we fall.


22 posted on 06/26/2011 3:23:30 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: greene66

I like you, greene66


23 posted on 06/26/2011 3:23:40 PM PDT by famousdayandyear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
Well, the anglicans, presbyterians, lutherans all have generated dissenting and confessing churches to preserve gospel. The UCC, IDK-- they really are not even a christian church so they don't actually matter. Couple hundred thousand bluehairs on the verge of meeting their Maker anyway.

No doubt the methodists will spin off an alternative to protect the traditions and teachings of 2000 years.

24 posted on 06/26/2011 3:25:41 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Lysandru

Do you think regular church goers at their churches will leave and go elsewhere — even if it is to a Catholic Church that only recognizes marriage between a man and a woman?


25 posted on 06/26/2011 3:25:52 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: driftdiver
They should be more worried about their souls.

Excellent catch. Pretty much sums up the crippling failure of the modern church. Soul? Huh? Whaddabouddit?

26 posted on 06/26/2011 3:28:18 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Westbrook

In case you missed it Phleger has promised Cardinal George that he will move soon — seems like “soon” was defined, but I’m not sure now.


27 posted on 06/26/2011 3:29:18 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: SWAMPSNIPER
fund raiser to build a Viet Cong field hospital

.I never heard that but I don't doubt it. The social action wing of the UMC has been dominated by Marxist atheist totalitarian scum for a couple generations. At least if they built the hospital the VC could use it to transfuse the blood collected for them by the "pacifist" Quakers during the war.

28 posted on 06/26/2011 3:33:01 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
Cry me a river already.

"Unfortunately the church has lost its prophetic voice on this issue," said the Rev. Gregory Gross, a deacon who organized the campaign. "Our civil society has taken the lead. Now the church is trying to catch up."

I don't recall any Biblical passages 'prophesying' that gay marriages will be A-OK someday.

Now the church is trying to catch up

It's funny how these types think they are ahead on the Biblical curve. New age is old hat.

29 posted on 06/26/2011 3:39:03 PM PDT by He Rides A White Horse ((unite))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

As I have posted on several other threads, these actions are programmed, organized, well-planned.

Gay and lesbian organizations are planning to take over churches, drive Christians away, and then take church property for themselves. It has already happened in Canada.

Ka-ching.

GLAAD and other gay and lesbian organizations are rich, powerful, have big legal departments, and are greedy for as much money and property as they can get. They access taxpayer money through ‘arts grants’, they have millions and millions in corporate donations and from foundations, and they are going to roll right over the lowly common peasants.

It’s about MONEY and POWER and these gay Methodist ministers are just part of a long-term strategy.

Fight for your church!!


30 posted on 06/26/2011 3:54:41 PM PDT by squarebarb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

Thes people who wopuld marry same sex couples are not flouting church policy, They are flouting 2000 years of Christian Doctrine, the Bible and esus Christ.

May God have mercy on their souls , they are deliberately leading their flocks off a cliff. And for what?

For 2% of their sinners who are mentally ill.


31 posted on 06/26/2011 4:03:07 PM PDT by Venturer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
"More than 200 United Methodist clergy in Illinois have pledged to flout church policy and bless unions for same-sex couples, putting their jobs, homes and callings in jeopardy if couples take advantage of their offer."

No, they're risking virtually nothing, and they know it. The UMC won't do much more than a slap on the wrist, if that, for their wanton anarchy, just as they treated the Wisconsin dyke "pastor" - 20 days suspension for willful defiance, and continued defiance, of the Church. Probably because they AGREE with blessing the sin of sodomy.

The United Methodist Church is dead and rotting. It has been for a long time. Get out while you are still morally sane and relatively free of the rot.

32 posted on 06/26/2011 4:08:25 PM PDT by fwdude (Prosser wins, Goonions lose.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

I don’t know who this deacon is, but I do know that Northern Illinois is a lost, unbelieving conference. Their former bishop, Joseph Sprague, forced a conservative pastor friend of mine out of the denomination....not officially, but nonetheless true. Sprague led them down the path to hell and ruined that conference, probably for generations.

Many tried to bring Sprague to trial, but he always played spin-doctor with his answers and was unwilling to say for the official record what he’d said in other places.

How does gay marriage hurt me?

It is a negative, sea-change in the society in which we are trying to rear healthy, rational children.

It has my government endorsing disease by endorsing major vectors of disease.

It endorses the recruitment of the young to a deadly lifestyle, because homosexuality only endures through recruitment.


33 posted on 06/26/2011 4:22:54 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Lysandru

I used to be a Methodist.

This kind of PC cr@p is why I left the church.


34 posted on 06/26/2011 4:36:19 PM PDT by Arm_Bears (I'll have what the gentleman on the floor is drinking.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; Lysandru; driftdiver; xzins; Salvation; Mad Dawg
"We stand together or we fall."

Which is exactly what Satan had in mind when he inspired a perpetual fragmentation machine and why division is still his tactic of choice in every case.

Sincere non-Catholic Christians and sincere Catholic Christians who all agree that Christ is their Savior have consistently allowed themselves to be divided by the profiteers and Humanists who have completely taken over so many non-Catholic denominations and who make up a significant percentage of "professional Catholics" and Catholic clergy.

It's no longer a matter of keeping this nation from becoming an essentially pagan nation, it's now a matter of whether or not Christians in this country can become strong enough in their faith that Christ will reward us by letting us lead the battle to win the majority back to faith in Christ rather than faith in Humanism. And make no mistake, it will be a fierce battle to overcome Humanists who have convinced the majority in this country that the most real and important sacrament they can participate in is the self-gratification of sex in spite of such behavior leading to the murder of millions of infants each year.

I have heard such Humanists argue that homosexual sex should be praised by Christians since it cannot possibly lead to abortion, and I've heard people who call themselves Christian agree with them. Is it any wonder that we have the society we deserve rather than the one Christ once blessed us with? Until those who are sincere followers of Christ become more focused on defeating Humanism than on arguing their doctrinal differences, we cannot possibly expect Christ to reward us with any sort of victory against the pagan Humanism that now rules.

35 posted on 06/26/2011 5:09:00 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Westbrook
>> That explains a LOT about a LOT of denominations, INCLUDING Catholic (e.g. Pfleger). <<

Pfleger is a lone lunatic in the Chicago archdiocese and wants nothing to do with the Catholic parishes. 99.99% of Catholic priests are nothing like Pfleger. Unlike the Methodists, there aren't 199 other "black power" Catholic priests and parishes in Chicago openly defying the church with him and promoting abortion and the rest of the RAT party platform with him.

That being said, the fact a heretic like Pfleger is allowed to continue preaching in a Catholic pulpit is proof the "conservative" cardinal of Chicago has no spine and lets that lunatic run loose.

36 posted on 06/26/2011 5:12:10 PM PDT by BillyBoy (Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: He Rides A White Horse
is trying to catch up

What they don't realise is that the Church is not necessarily supposed to be in step with society. In fact it follows God, if society does too, then society is in step with the Church.

Otherwise, if The Church had always tried to be in step with society, then in the 3rd - 6th centuries it would have been Arian, in the 11th-12th Gnostic, in the 1800s Christian Scientist or Jehovah's Witness.

37 posted on 06/26/2011 9:30:44 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: squarebarb

it should be “Fight for our churches” — all Christians putting up a common front against this. If we just leave this fight to the Methodists, we present a divided house...


38 posted on 06/26/2011 9:31:47 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: xzins
It is a negative, sea-change in the society in which we are trying to rear healthy, rational children.

Yes and the more we watch TV serials the more we come to "accept" it. Have you noticed that nearly every TV serial in the 90s had a sympathetic gay friend? Take "Friends" -- I noticed that it subtly changed MY attitudes to gays.

We "tolerate" sleeping together before marriage, "staying together" etc. -- so the next stage is acceptance of "gay marriage".

This comes from "letting society take the lead and the church playing catch-up"

39 posted on 06/26/2011 9:34:34 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Rashputin; Mad Dawg
rash: I have heard such Humanists argue that homosexual sex should be praised by Christians since it cannot possibly lead to abortion

That is a reduction to the Cathar heresy that breeders are bad and it's better to take it ... rather than do as God said "to multiply".

40 posted on 06/26/2011 9:36:52 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; Rashputin
I have heard such Humanists argue that homosexual sex should be praised by Christians since it cannot possibly lead to abortion, and I've heard people who call themselves Christian agree with them.

Losing both legs is fabulous: no more sore feet!

Property is evil, it leads to theft.

I can't say enough for death. Dead people don't litter.

It's not just that they consider themselves Christians, it's that they consider themselves thoughtful! To them I would say,"Decapitation in your case should be praised. It cannot possibly lead to gross errors of thought!"

Let me slip into "O tempora, o mores" mode here. I could begin by wondering how many of these geniuses could identify that quote. It's not that knowing bits of Cicero's first oration against Cataline is essential to thought. But in might be necessary (but not sufficient) to the kind of education that leads to ordered thought.

O Chronoi! (little translingual pun there...) Once again the importance of having a clue about the Incarnation shows itself. If we start out thinking that the body is an inconvenient and unreliable locus of a thinking entity, the first things to go are two of the four cardinal virtues. Prudence goes because we have denied the possibility of the benign influence on our thought of our creatureliness. We think, like the Cathars, think we can cut ourselves free of the limitations of our fleshy finitude if only we try hard enough. And so we mistake rash and disordered thought for courageous new speculation.

Temperance goes because the same limitations of finitude are considered foreign enemies to our beautifully (in our view) free thought and will, rather than guides to happiness.

When we have bereft ourselves of those habits of wisdom, our courage will fail us the first time our bodies rise up in revolt, and justice won't even get in the door, since it is as foolish not to know one's desires and inclinations as it is to ignore the massing of enemy troops on one's borders.

Okay, first rant of the day. I could go on but I'm merciful, and it would be better for all if I just mutter and grumble into my coffee-cup.

41 posted on 06/27/2011 2:20:53 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; Mad Dawg
"That is a reduction to the Cathar heresy ..."

Oh, absolutely. Every heresy from the past has been revived and marketed to people in this country as an acceptable "Christian" viewpoint and is either undermining a particular existing church from within or is the basis for a separate church on it's own.

At the same time, those who are sincere are showered with deceptions and slanders against every identifiable group of faithful Christians to such a degree that they never combine with fellow Christians and become effective combatants in the war against Satan. Instead, they are constantly encouraged to focus on the few doctrinal issues that separate them from fellow Christians rather than the immense evil they should be fighting.

Regards

42 posted on 06/27/2011 2:39:00 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Rashputin

Yep.

“By schisms rent asunder, by heresies distrest.”

One the one hand there is a need for apologetics. On the other hand, the enemy is at the gates.


43 posted on 06/27/2011 2:44:24 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Mad Dawg
"I could go on but I'm merciful, and it would be better for all if I just mutter and grumble into my coffee-cup."

Please, don't retreat into muttering to yourself. Had I run into more people who muttered and grumbled aloud it would have spared me many a year in the wilderness.

Regards

44 posted on 06/27/2011 2:45:36 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; Lysandru
Methodists in the Northern Illinois Conference also called on the global church to impose no more than a 24-hour suspension for clergy who defy the policy.

This is the kind of thing that happened in the Episcopal Church. When bishops ordained women and then practicing homosexuals before the whole body gave the official okey-dokey, they were maybe rebuked but that was it.

So the world thought the bishops "courageous" for daring this dreadful consequence, while we in the bodies in question realized that church order meant nothing more than acquiescence to the spirit of the age.

And as we see in the Episcopal Church, failing to stand for anything in particular leads to falling for anything in general.

45 posted on 06/27/2011 2:52:59 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rashputin; Cronos

Oh my!

Cronos knows. I will soon reach critical mass and explode again.

Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness and, though they sinned much, they received many graces. It is not wasted.

At least by the end of 40 years we should be able to admit that we are froward murmurers whose automatic response on the day that we hear His voice is to jam our fingers in our ears.

“Meribah? Massa? Never ‘eard of ‘em! Whoa! Where’d those burning snakes come from?”


46 posted on 06/27/2011 3:00:52 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Rashputin
Every heresy from the past has been revived and marketed to people in this country as an acceptable "Christian" viewpoint and is either undermining a particular existing church from within or is the basis for a separate church on it's own.

you are incredibly spot on accurate today.

47 posted on 06/27/2011 3:02:45 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Mad Dawg; Rashputin; xzins

What we need is more shouting by folks and fighting. We need to take back our churches!


48 posted on 06/27/2011 3:04:45 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; Rashputin
Okay, get your coffee. (You, Cronos, get some Vodka). This will be long.

Since I had made solemn promises when I was ordained a priest (or not) in the Episcopal Church (TEC), my departure and renunciation were slow and deliberate.

What pushed me over the edge was this: A bishop, an ordinary, was fool enough to hear the confessions of his high-church clergy, one of whom later turned out to be a child molester. (Ordinaries ought not to hear confessions because it can trash their ability to discipline their clergy. It can tie their hands.)

So at the civil suit of the diocese, the confessions came up. Since the point of the suit was that the diocese knew or should have known about the abuse, the content of the confessions was highly material. The penitent molester gave his permission, but that's immaterial, IMHO.

So the judge ordered the bishop to divulge. He demurred. She threatened to hold him in contempt and to fine him $1k per day. He stalled for time, and asked “815” (TEC headquarters in New York) for backup.

They told him to go ahead and divulge.

Now at least in theory rubrics of the Book of Common Prayer (BCP) have the force of law, and the BCP is only changed with great work and the votes of two successive triennial general (national) conventions.

And the relevant rubric reads, “The secrecy of a confession is morally absolute for the confessor, and must under no circumstances be broken.”

Very UN-EPiscopalian language: “morally absolute” and “under no circumstances.” So what we had was the headquarters of TEC telling a bishop to break a rubric.

So much for the representative character of the TEC polity. So much for “Vox (Episcopal) populi, vox dei.” It all came down to the illegal decision of the bureaucrats of the Presiding Bishop.

This same Church took the decision to abandon centuries of tradition and ordain women to the priesthood and episcopate as something it could do, did do, and which the people of TEC should accept as authoritative. But the rubric on the secrecy of the confessional was optional?

Not only is there the obvious legal and “authority” problem here, there is a moral problem. At the very least, 815 should promulgate their decision that “morally absolute” means “morally relative” and “under no circumstances” means “under some circumstances”. That way, pious layfolk would know that the confidentiality they had been given to expect was illusory.

Needless to say, that didn't happen either.

So, I wrote a monograph, in the mode of a crank, I suppose. I had enough copies printed for all the clergy of the diocese and handed them out at a diocesan clergy meeting.

I got ONE response.

So I concluded we had an organization that began in a dispute about the authority of the Bishop of Rome, finally dissolving into a group refusing to abide by its own decisions and evidently perceiving none of the responsibilities of taking authority.

Not only that, but in this and all the other transgressions of discipline, TEC was revealed to be a body that declined to bear the burden of apostolic authority. “Believe what you want about gender and sexuality, abortion, the Holy Sacrament of the Altar, the creeds, the nature of Christ, or anything whatsoever,” is the opposite of Apostolic, as much as shrugging is the opposite of a declaration.

For me, it wasn't a matter of leaving one ‘church’ for another because I liked the other more. It was a matter of the church which two times had required of me that I subscribe to or make verbally an oath of conformity — as witnessed by the congregation, which would naturally conclude what was suggested, namely: that I meant to be obedient — expected no conformity from me or from its other clergy. We each were expected to do what was right in our own eyes, and by this incident were shown to conform not even to our own wills but to our whims.

It was conceptually impossible that I had been ordained by a church that intended ordination or, indeed, that intended anything whatsoever!

But specifically, this showed that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Episcopal “clergy” were FINE with that state of affairs.

(I have been told I am “too reasonable”! Moi! It's not that my arguments were bad, it's that they were GOOD, therefore they should not be listened to or answered!)

So, yes, by all means let us shout and tangle. But the great somnolent mass of adherents to mainstream denominations will not let their slumber be disturbed. In forsaking proper authority, they end up having forsaken ANY authority.

49 posted on 06/27/2011 3:49:42 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Mad Dawg
"But the great somnolent mass of adherents to mainstream denominations will not let their slumber be disturbed. In forsaking proper authority, they end up having forsaken ANY authority."

Wow. That's so similar to the conclusion that regularly picks fights with me that it's scary.

It took me a long time, but I finally realized that the only alternative to floating in the murky waters that pass for non-Catholic doctrine really is the the Catholic Church Christ, oddly enough, said He would build on solid rock. The great majority of folks, though, happily float along on their inflated mat of self-absorbsion and to them anyone swimming in search of solid ground is either a distraction or a joke. It doesn't bother them a bit that their doctrine is like Grandpa's Axe and has had the handle replaced three times and the head replaced twice. As long as they're cozy they have no intention of getting off their lovely little personal mat or paying any attention to what they're floating towards.

Only a small percentage are willing to even dip a toe in the water much less abandon their mat and swim off in search of solid ground. That small percentage is desperately needed at the barricades but time spent trying to guide them to solid ground is time not on the barricades and effort that often times is counterproductive. We're up against a very smart opponent, one who frames the battle in a way that pits our attempts to be as wise as serpents against our desire to be as harmless as doves.

Regards

50 posted on 06/27/2011 9:43:05 AM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-55 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson