Posted on 06/27/2011 3:13:42 AM PDT by Cronos
The mood Sunday morning at Fair Oaks Presbyterian Church Sunday was upbeat – the pews were packed and many nodded as the pastor preached his message of forgiveness.
..
Next month, the Presbyterian Church begins allowing those who are openly gay to be ordained as ministers, elders and deacons. The new rules, which were approved in May and take effect July 10, have provoked a wide range of responses from local church leaders.
They are holding town hall meetings with concerned members, sending letters explaining the rules and posting their opinions of the new ordination standards on their church websites.
"It is the biggest upheaval I have ever seen," said the Rev. Donald Baird, of Fremont Presbyterian Church, the largest in the area. "This is my worst nightmare. What does it mean when those openly violating Scripture are ordained?"
.."This issue should not be a deal-breaker," said the Rev. Mary Lynn Tobin, senior pastor of Davis Community Church. She also worked on the national board working to allow the ordination of gays. "Churches who do not want to ordain gays don't have to. Nobody is forcing them."
(Excerpt) Read more at sacbee.com ...
One more reason why “organized religion” is many times a “bad” thing.
“MAN” making the rules. “MAN” telling us what “God” says. Man’s rules instead of God’s rules. What could go wrong with that?
Under the new rules, local church leaders will have more flexibility in determining each candidate's fitness for office, Tobin said. All other ordination standards stay the same.
I'm very curious to know how many young people are entering the seminary to be pastors in the Presbyterian Church USA.
The most offensive thing about this denomination is that the medical plan for pastors and their families gives them coverage for abortions.
Presbyterians expect fewer full-time pastors
May 02, 2011
“More signs of tough times: Large majorities of Presbyterians expect that a decreasing number of their churches will be led by full-time pastors.
At present, fewer than half of the congregations in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) have a full-time, installed pastor—mainly because of financial hardship.
Instead, findings from the November 2010 Presbyterian Panel survey say more churches will have to rely on supply pastors, lay pastors of various categories—or no formal pastoral leader at all, according to the Presbyterian News Service.”
http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2011-04/presbyterians-expect-fewer-full-time-pastors
Do they oil up first?
I’d say the problem isn’t the “organized” aspect of it, but the “disorganized” aspect. Man is openly flouting the rules, and there’s no institutional means of putting it right.
What’s the alternative? Non-denominational churches where the pastor makes up the rules on the fly as he sees it, and the whole congregation is like a boiled frog? Or do away with community altogether, and everyone just does their own thing anyway?
WHAT???? NO WAY. No way can any Church be so depraved. No way -- I'm sorry to doubt your word Dr. Scarpetta, but that is crazy
I'm not sure Camping or Warren are any better.
The only Church that answers Christ's prayer to His Father that His Church remain as One is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. A difficult fact for many non-Catholics to swallow (believe me, I know) but a fact nonetheless. And would anyone who claims they are Christian assert that the Father would not answer a prayer made to Him by His Son? The argument that there is a single, sincere, non-Catholic, Church that is His Church when you can't even count the number of variations in doctrine among those who claim to be part of the invisible church is absurd. Were the same claim made about any other group it would generate nothing but laughter even among those who argue long and hard that there is a single non-Catholic church.
The fact is that there is no alternative to the organized Church which is exactly why Christ founded His Church and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Scriptures call His Church His body, not a mob or a mass of free floating bacteria drifting in the scum of this world.
As corny or strange as it may sound, when people serve Molek, Molek will be fed. Of course, I was as shocked as you were when I first heard of this years ago but on reflection, it shouldn't be surprising to see those who fall away become advocates for the opposite of everything they once claimed was true. From child sacrifice to the polytheism of Humanist philosophy, nothing remains of their faith once they refuse to take up the cross of shunning their own understanding.
Regards
At least one good thing that is happening is that many Presbyterian USA churches and members are leaving the denomination. Good sign, especially in the land of fruit and nuts.
They should check out the PCA Presbyterians.
But the worry is that the PCUSA, UCC, PRC, RCNC etc. are 90% of the reformed movement. The splitting of the few doctrinally sound 10% to the PCA -- what did that accomplish? Purity with the accompanying loss of 90% of congregants?
Or was this actually an error where the devout, strongly believing, conservative Presbyterians left the PCUSA just when it needed these folks to stand up and shout and say "I ain't gonna let you make the Reformed movement the Gay Reformed movement -- if you want a Gay-Marriage "church", create a new religion of your own".
I see only grave dangers in the 10% of conservative folks leaving the 90% to the dogs so to speak -- this same thing is happening to those very congregations that left -- see the EPC has now voted to have women pastoresses -- how long before lesbian married pastoresses?
My gut feel is to stay and fight.
there is no “little bit” on this issue. it is or is not going to follow the “rules”
there is no little bit adultery.
there is no little bit “other gods” exception for sexual fetishes.
I grew up in the Presbyterian Church USA and left when I discovered that our contributions were going to a medical plan that included abortion coverage.
What explanation did they give?
I understand the fight or flight problem with apostate churches. 20 something years ago I had to make the same decision with the United Methodist church. I think my decision has been correct. It comes down to those denominations do not believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures or that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. They take the "cafeteria approach" to the Bible. They choose what they want to believe and ignore the rest. The UMC is even more liberal than when I left. Many of my friends are still there "fighting".
When the majority controls, it is extremely hard for the minority to make any headway. If the Word of God has no effect on them, yours or mine will not either. I could not support an apostate church with my presence, my efforts or my money.
With the Presbyterian churches, at least there is a 10% that is doctrinally sound. A Remnant. Without the split, there would be zero%.
I share your concern with the EPC. Creeping gradualism. Kind of like when people move from California to conservative Western states, they then demand the state change to be like the place they fled. (Cali-fornication) I fear that these new converts to the EPC will bring some of their liberal ways to the EPC. My late father-in-law was an EPC minister.
I actually found out about Presbyterian USA pastors getting abortion coverage here on FR back in 2000. There was a thread here about the PCUSA, and someone posted that information.
I couldn’t believe it could be true. I was totally shocked.
I did research online, and I discovered it is a true fact. Then I confronted my pastor and other church members with this information while we were in a meeting.
The pastor admitted that he gets abortion coverage. No one else at the meeting voiced an opinion. I expressed my opinion and said I couldn’t belong to that denomination anymore.
Every year the presbytery required all members to give a certain amount of money above and beyond what was given to the local church.
There was no way to know what money was spent on abortions. They also pay for partial-birth abortions. There are no questions asked when a pastor or family member has an abortion and uses the medical plan.
It’s sad that a once proud and God-fearing denomination has been taken over by liberal democrats at the highest levels.
Not only do they want gay pastors and abortion coverage, they do not support Israel. They’re always making statements in support of the Palestinians.
I understand that some people think you should stick it out in your local church, but it’s like dealing with a democrat dictatorship. It’s all their way.
The PCUSA is not the only one taken over by liberals. The UCC has had openly gay pastors for a while now. Older members sitting in the pews sometimes have no idea these changes have taken place.
Pastors getting abortion coverage is kept quiet.
Fair Oaks Pres is a terrific church and Henry Wells, the former pastor, was as solid as can be. Don’t know Bottomly, but he obviously is in the same mold, as are the parishoners.
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