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The Church Built on Peter
The Integrated Catholic Life ^ | June 29, 2011 | Fr. Roger Landry

Posted on 06/29/2011 5:46:53 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore

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To: Jvette; CynicalBear
Third, why do you think that Jesus says to Peter first, thou art Peter(rock, which we all agree)first and then says upon this rock I will build my church? It is clear in any reading of this passage that Jesus first calls Simon Rock, then says He will build His church upon this rock.

Clear to you but not to thhe Catholic Church. One of you is in error.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.


101 posted on 06/30/2011 10:23:44 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: OLD REGGIE; CynicalBear; Jvette
typical unitarian response is to take something out of context, like the bible and then mould it to fit their philosophy

Why don't you, Old Reggie, explain to Cynical bear how a unitarian uses sola scriptura to prove that Jesus Christ is not God?

On what basis does a unitarian even consider scripture to BE scripture?

unitarians believe in the big ? in the sky

102 posted on 06/30/2011 10:29:47 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos

I understand about languages that assign a gender to objects. I was born in Spain, my native language is Spanish, and my husband still gets confused when I refer to our car as “he” and his pick up truck as “she”. However, in the petros vs. petra controversy gender is just one factor, the meanings are different. Do you believe that Matthew wrote the gospel under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? If so, you must agree that the Holy Spirit wanted Simon to be known as Petros (not Petra).


103 posted on 06/30/2011 10:31:28 AM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: Not gonna take it anymore
For those of you who think we Catholics are going to Hell, just remember to look after your own soul.

Hate is not cleansing.

You're confusing compassion with hate...And of course anything anti-Catholic seems to be hate to you guys...

Compassion for those who may fall into the trap of your religion...We are warning them ahead of time...

Some of you claim that once you become a Catholic, you can not leave the Catholic religion...Not unlike 'Hotel California'...

104 posted on 06/30/2011 12:02:32 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
Peter was the first to baptise a gentile -- don't forget that.

Peter baptized them with water AFTER God baptized them with the Holy Spirit...

105 posted on 06/30/2011 12:24:07 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: MarkBsnr
Interesting viewpoint. If you actually read the Gospels, you will find that Peter was the foremost amongst the Apostles in the teaching of Jesus and in interaction with Him.

Peter was certainly the most colorful...It could be that Peter was the only one who kept falling off both sides of the fence and he made a good example for Jesus to teach us about...

You keep saying that Paul was only sent to the Gentiles. Why then, if you examine Paul's life, did he spend most of his time with the Jews? And Peter?

I don't argue with God like you do...

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Peter was given the keys, and charged by Jesus to 'feed My sheep'. Nobody else was.

That charge was given to all the Apostles...And then to the disciples, bishops, pastors, etc...

And Catholicism is not a religion; we have the Faith handed down from the Apostles which was given to them from Jesus.

Weird statement...Faith comes from Jesus Christ to the individual Christian...Not thru anyone, even the apostles...

106 posted on 06/30/2011 12:41:33 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: MarkBsnr
Still denying the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit?

Hardly...I'm denying the divinity of your religion's Holy Father, your pope...

107 posted on 06/30/2011 12:43:18 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Jvette
None of it contradicts that Peter was whom the Lord chose to lead His church and Scripture supports that truth, when one reads how Peter is the first and the foremost mentioned in nearly all of the NT.

There is no human leader of the church...

Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

108 posted on 06/30/2011 12:49:57 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: johngrace
This webster guy is totally out of context. I have a dictionary of early fathers qoutes. They firmly believed in a head of the church.

If that's true, they they were wrong...So what's the big deal???

109 posted on 06/30/2011 12:53:37 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Jvette
Protestants dissent from the Church that it is in this passage Christ names Peter as the one to lead His church.

No...Protestants dissent because the verse doesn't say what you want it to say...

It's an obscure verse at best...There is nothing in scripture that indicates that Jesus built his church on the person of Peter the Apostle...

The keys, the binding and loosing, the feed the sheep were given to all the Apostles...Not just Peter..

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

You take a clear verse like the one posted and ignore it and then try to use an obscure verse like Matt. 16:18 to prove something that doesn't make any sense...

No one believes that Peter is anything other than Christ’s representative after His return to heaven. The Church does not teach anything other than that.

There's a bunch of us who don't believe that regardless of what your Church teaches...

110 posted on 06/30/2011 1:02:58 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Jvette
Scripture does not record the entire history of the church, but we do see in Acts that Peter calls for a replacement for Judas. That is the foundation of Apostolic Succession. Immediately we see Peter taking the lead and we see how men were to be chosen to continue the work of the Apostles.

Peter was wrong...God picks all the Apostles himself...God did not make an exception for Peter's maneuvre...

111 posted on 06/30/2011 1:06:10 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

Very interesting read.


112 posted on 06/30/2011 1:08:10 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: Cronos
now to a person who only knows English this may seem like two different meaning intentions, but that is because English does not have gender assigned to inanimate objects

There are many bible/language scholars who disagree with your premise...

113 posted on 06/30/2011 1:09:23 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Appears they don’t even believe their own catechism...


114 posted on 06/30/2011 1:11:35 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Former Fetus
Of course this was inspired by the Holy Spirit, yet that still requires two separate gender constructs for Petra (rock) and Petros (masculine line)

And, was it originally in Aramaic/Hebrew and translated into Greek? If yes, then in Aramaic, the word used is Cephas which has no such issue

And finally, the chances are better that Jesus original words WERE in Aramaic, not Greek

115 posted on 06/30/2011 2:25:23 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Iscool; Not gonna take it anymore; MarkBsnr

of course the difference is that we Christians unlike your group, don’t believe that God exists in modes...


116 posted on 06/30/2011 2:26:46 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Iscool; Not gonna take it anymore; MarkBsnr

Yup and Peter baptised the first gentile nonetheless, God’s spirit is involved irrespective of the baptiser


117 posted on 06/30/2011 2:27:39 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Iscool; Not gonna take it anymore; MarkBsnr
iscool: God baptized them with the Holy Spirit.

err Iscool, perhaps it's new to you but to us Christians, the Holy Spirit is God

118 posted on 06/30/2011 2:28:52 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Iscool

Not really. And you’re not a bible or a language scholar.


119 posted on 06/30/2011 2:29:51 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Iscool

Besides, Iscool, you never answered — you claimed to be Catholic, right? Supposedly a Catholic converting to the Baptists in 2007. Were you Catholic?


120 posted on 06/30/2011 2:38:02 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

Interesting. Thanks for posting.


121 posted on 06/30/2011 2:39:52 PM PDT by Jaded (Really? Seriously?)
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To: Cronos
Jesus said to Simon Peter,

So, are you disputing that Jesus who we Christians (as opposed to unitarians) consider God, doesn't mean it when he renames someone?

Are you disputing the words of Jesus?

John 21:
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

By what name did Jesus always address Simon (Peter)?

122 posted on 06/30/2011 2:48:29 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Cronos; CynicalBear; Jvette
typical unitarian response is to take something out of context, like the bible and then mould it to fit their philosophy

Why don't you, Old Reggie, explain to Cynical bear how a unitarian uses sola scriptura to prove that Jesus Christ is not God?

On what basis does a unitarian even consider scripture to BE scripture?

unitarians believe in the big ? in the sky

It is completely untrue to suggest I took something out of context when I posted the entire Catechism entry. Keep up the good work.

In the meanwhile idiotic responses such as yours above are worthy of the Photobucket

123 posted on 06/30/2011 2:57:51 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: OLD REGGIE
One day they will realize that they had no idea what the RCC really believed and it may be said that the RCC itself doesn’t really know what they believe. For sure the RCC isn’t even close to what the original church was under the Apostles.

When you the founding fathers words or their own catechism to refute what they are saying they tend to get personal or attempt to get demeaning also I have found.

124 posted on 06/30/2011 3:20:20 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Iscool; MarkBsnr
James actually was the evident authority in the first church council gathering in Jerusalem.

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

125 posted on 06/30/2011 3:26:35 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: OLD REGGIE
What happened to his "Rockiness"?

You mean his "Pebbliness"? :)

We know that Jesus was a master orator and wordsmith in the tradition (!!!) of rabbis. I think that, in light of many of Christ's teachings and parables being on several levels, Peter was nicknamed small rock in comparison to Jesus being big rock. IOW, Peter is small to Jesus, but is to act in the role of leader when the big and authentic leader has departed (the keys, the keys).

I think that many times people miss all the levels of meaning that Jesus taught to us and the various combinations of copying and translations have taken away some of those meanings or lessened their understandability.

126 posted on 06/30/2011 3:37:27 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos

Jesus probably spoke in Aramaic, although most people in the Roman empire spoke koine Greek also. The point is, the gospel was written in Greek, so when Matthew had a choice of using petra or petros I believe the Holy Spirit made the choice of words.


127 posted on 06/30/2011 3:43:07 PM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: Iscool
Interesting viewpoint. If you actually read the Gospels, you will find that Peter was the foremost amongst the Apostles in the teaching of Jesus and in interaction with Him.

Peter was certainly the most colorful...It could be that Peter was the only one who kept falling off both sides of the fence and he made a good example for Jesus to teach us about...

Or it could be what the Church teaches. Most likely it is. Judas fell off the fence and is treated in appropriate fashion.

You keep saying that Paul was only sent to the Gentiles. Why then, if you examine Paul's life, did he spend most of his time with the Jews? And Peter?

I don't argue with God like you do...

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

You admit again that you believe that Paul is God (and by extension, Jesus is not).

Peter was given the keys, and charged by Jesus to 'feed My sheep'. Nobody else was.

That charge was given to all the Apostles...And then to the disciples, bishops, pastors, etc...

Where? Chapter and verse, please. Where was anyone else given the keys?

And Catholicism is not a religion; we have the Faith handed down from the Apostles which was given to them from Jesus.

Weird statement...Faith comes from Jesus Christ to the individual Christian...Not thru anyone, even the apostles...

This is why we say that you keep telling us that you are not Christian. It is only weird to non Christians. Here is a verse from the Nicene Creed:

"We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."

"Apostolic" here means that the Church believes in its origin and beliefs as rooted in the teachings of the Apostles of Jesus. All Christians will accept "Apostolic" to mean that there is continuity in the church's teachings from the apostles throughout history, not just in the first century, or prior to the fourth.

128 posted on 06/30/2011 3:54:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool
Still denying the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit?

Hardly...I'm denying the divinity of your religion's Holy Father, your pope...

Nobody claims divinity of any Pope. But only non Christians deny the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit - which you do on a regular basis, while elevating Paul to the status of God.

129 posted on 06/30/2011 3:55:47 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: CynicalBear
James actually was the evident authority in the first church council gathering in Jerusalem.

James was the bishop of Jersalem. Peter was the leader of the bishops. It is quite plain from Acts 2 onward.

130 posted on 06/30/2011 3:58:06 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos; Iscool
iscool: God baptized them with the Holy Spirit.

err Iscool, perhaps it's new to you but to us Christians, the Holy Spirit is God

Remember that Iscool tells us that he doesn't believe what he believes and that he alternatively finds God to be God the Father only, or else a diune subordinationist modalist God of the Supreme Father and the meek and mild Son, with the Holy Spirit as an inanimate robot messager who wanders around doing God's bidding.

131 posted on 06/30/2011 4:02:55 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
>> James was the bishop of Jersalem. Peter was the leader of the bishops. It is quite plain from Acts 2 onward.<<

Or so thinks the RCC. They also think that a person needs to be subject to the Pope to be saved.

132 posted on 06/30/2011 4:07:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
>> James was the bishop of Jersalem. Peter was the leader of the bishops. It is quite plain from Acts 2 onward.<<

Or so thinks the RCC.

So thinks anyone with understanding of the New Testament.

They also think that a person needs to be subject to the Pope to be saved.

Let us what the truth actually is:

Salvation outside the Church

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Thanks to: http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asphttp://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

If you actually quote the Catechism correctly, you will also be correct.

133 posted on 06/30/2011 4:48:05 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr

So it’s not just Jesus death and resurrection and belief in Him that saves but the RCC also. Got it. I guess the scripture that says “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house” forgot to mention membership in the RCC.


134 posted on 06/30/2011 4:55:15 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Cronos
Yup and Peter baptised the first gentile nonetheless, God’s spirit is involved irrespective of the baptiser

No one knows that...The scripture says Peter commanded them to get baptized...It does not say Peter baptized them...

135 posted on 06/30/2011 4:55:57 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: MarkBsnr
Nobody claims divinity of any Pope. But only non Christians deny the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit - which you do on a regular basis, while elevating Paul to the status of God.

Then why do you call your popes Holy Father???

136 posted on 06/30/2011 5:02:13 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: CynicalBear
So it’s not just Jesus death and resurrection and belief in Him that saves but the RCC also. Got it. I guess the scripture that says “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house” forgot to mention membership in the RCC.

Odd, I guess that you either did not read or understand my post. The Bible and the Catechism state what they state quite adequately. May I ask in what way I should communicate in order to convey that understanding?

137 posted on 06/30/2011 5:16:19 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool; Cronos
No one knows that...The scripture says Peter commanded them to get baptized...It does not say Peter baptized them...

You are correct. So now you are saying that Peter had the authority to command people to be baptized. Odd. Since Peter was not a disciple of your god Paul, why would you be championing him?

138 posted on 06/30/2011 5:19:13 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool
Then why do you call your popes Holy Father???

St. Paul describes himself as "father" in that he is bringing the Gospel to his spiritual children. He calls himself that several times during his epistles.

139 posted on 06/30/2011 5:27:15 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
Give it up man. The RCC says EVERYTHING needed for salvation is tied to the RCC. The catechism of the RCC so states over and over.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

140 posted on 06/30/2011 5:41:07 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Give it up man. The RCC says EVERYTHING needed for salvation is tied to the RCC. The catechism of the RCC so states over and over.

It's amusing that you ignored not only my posting to you about this, but also the very words from the CCC that you posted.

The CCC has the articles (previously posted) that indicate that there is the possibility of salvation outside of the Church - only that Christ has not chosen to elaborate on it.

If you think that you can weasel your way into salvation on weasel words, then feel free to utilize them on your Judgement Day. Or else, you can tell Jesus that His Church is unable to do what He charged them to do. Have at it, and good luck to you.

141 posted on 06/30/2011 5:48:36 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
>> but also the very words from the CCC that you posted.<<

I just quoted to you the catechism that states ALL authority for salvation comes through the RCC. Re Read the bold sections.

142 posted on 06/30/2011 5:56:14 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

It says through, based upon Scripture and the words of Our Lord. Not by, as you intimated. Re read the Gospels for further illumination.


143 posted on 06/30/2011 5:58:52 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: OLD REGGIE

As I find so often, non Catholics want to separate Peter and Peter’s faith, as if that is even possible.

Peter is named rock by God, who only changes the names of people that He has great plans for in His salvation of our souls. That faith that Peter had was a gift from God, Jesus says “Blessed are you because flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.”

God gave to Peter the faith he would need to be strong in the face of the persecution and doubts that would come once Jesus was crucified, rose and ascended to heaven.

The passage you quote from the catechism does not contradict that Peter is the first leader of the church, given that charge by Jesus and the faith he would need by God.

So non Catholics can say the Rock is Jesus, the rock is Peter’s confession or whatever. The truth is that it is all of the above.

Jesus leads His church, through the Holy Spirit.


144 posted on 06/30/2011 6:31:21 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: Former Fetus

I believe that Christ is the cornerstone and Peter, by his faith, is the rock upon which Christ founded His church.


145 posted on 06/30/2011 6:35:54 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: Iscool

One at a time.

The pope is called the servant of the servants of God. He serves the church not himself, all that he has for his use does not belong to him.

No one says they are of the pope. We are God’s children, brothers and sisters of Christ and it is Christ whom we worship and serve.

Christ’s church has certainly been divided, but not by us.

The rest is simply Paul explaining his call and gifts for the church, the body of Christ as well as his concern that certain of the faithful were aligning themselves with certain Apostles and not adhering to the one faith those Apostles preached. It does not mean anything else.


146 posted on 06/30/2011 6:43:22 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: MarkBsnr

Never in the New Testament is salvation contingent upon belonging to an organized institution. The RCC has placed itself between Christ and the people and will be punished for it.


147 posted on 06/30/2011 6:49:58 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Iscool

I did not ignore that verse, we are discussing Peter, the fact that his name was changed to rock and what that means.

Now the passage is obscure? I thought all Scripture was self interpretive. Why, as a Christian can’t I just read it and instantly understand it?

No one says that Peter was the only Apostle that received the binding and loosing as we see in the Gospel of John, when Jesus appeared in the upper room, He says a similar thing when He tells those there, “Whatever you forgive will be forgiven, and whatever you do not forgive, will not be forgiven.”

It is however, only to Peter that He gives the keys of the kingdom. And it is only to Peter that God revealed the truth of who Jesus is.


148 posted on 06/30/2011 6:54:51 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear

No, they believe that Christians are subjects of the church with Christ as the head.

BTW, still no answer for me in your own words? That’s okay, I can wait.


149 posted on 06/30/2011 6:56:58 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear; MarkBsnr

The Church claims nothing for herself that was not given to her by Christ.

In John Jesus says, “As the Father sent me, so I send you.”

God, through His Son Jesus has established His Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit.

He made this choice so that all people could hear and know of Jesus and come to believe in Him and be saved.

Everything anyone knows about Jesus came to them through the Church, His Church.

The Church has been ENTRUSTED with the fullness of His grace and truth to the extent that God wishes it to be.

Yes, ALL of it comes through the Church by the will of God.


150 posted on 06/30/2011 7:09:10 PM PDT by Jvette
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